dave_p

Nah, I was mostly kidding about that chain since you can't get nearly enough recharge for it. Just a riff on the HS-HS-HS mythical attack chain.

4 Kin Combats (which is how I start all my SS slotting, btw) is close enough to ED cap for damage, and pretty good on the other aspects (except for Accuracy, but you have Rage's +to hit), that I go w/procs for Jab (and Punch) for when Rage crashes. Another option would be a taunt IO if you have a weak aura (*cough*WP*cough). 2 Zinger IOs (proc & taunt) even gives you a tiny fear resist (yeah, it's not much).

For my big SS attacks tho (Haymaker, KO), I definitely want to max out the stats. I actually like 2 of the Pounding Slugfest (A/D & D/R) for the +regen bonus, but you can also do a Mako quad or CI A/D/R and a proc

[ QUOTE ]
I think there's a matter of perspective here as well. If you played Energy Melee through its changes, you're going to probably be a little more jaded about the set then if you picked it up recently and/or picked it up from time to time, not having directly experienced the decline as it happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good point, and is compounded by the fact that I already lived through multiple Burn nerfs on the same toon prior to the EM nerf, which just added insult on injury. Still, I stand by my numbers that I posed way at the top--if you just look at the stats objectively and compare it to the other sets, I can't see how you can come to any conclusion other than EM needs a bit of help.

And again, to those of you do who not pay attention to the numbers, more power to you. Enjoy EM it its pink (not for long!) glory.

BTW, the reason I keep returning to this topic isn't so much to convince anyone they should play or not play EM, but I've seen what we can accomplish w/Ice Melee & WM, getting some love from the devs. I'd dearly like something similar to EM which really got beat up rather badly by the nerf bat.

I've been steadily updating my DPA spreadsheet w/more data. Here are the damage stats on the two sets w/o accounting for crits:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
BS Dam Act Rech End DPE DPA
Hack 102.6 1.33 8 8.528 12.03 64.77
Slash 62.56 1.33 4 5.2 12.03 39.49
Slice 76.95 2 8 8.528 9.02 34.29
Parry 52.55 1.33 3 4.368 12.03 33.18
WS 81.34 2.67 14 13 6.26 28.01
Disembl 122.62 1.8 10 10.192 12.03 61.93
Headsp 162.66 2.33 14 13.52 12.03 64.86

Katana Dam Act Rech End DPE DPA
SotW 72.57 1.17 5 6.032 12.03 54.98
GC 52.56 0.67 3 4.368 12.03 56.88
FS 61.94 1.17 6 6.032 10.27 46.92
DA 52.55 1.33 3 4.368 12.03 33.18
Lotus 85.09 1.83 14 13 6.55 42.97
SD 112.61 1.33 9 9.36 12.03 71.09
GD 142.64 1.83 12 11.856 12.03 72.04
</pre><hr />

All calcs are using Arcanatime, using lvl 50 base damage. You can see Kat's 2 big hitters have better DPA than BS's 2, but Hack is better than GC (in fact Hack-HS-Hack-HS is your ideal chain). Of course GC's very low activation time means its weight is greatly lessened which leads to a higher overall DPS for the Kat chain. Parry &amp; DA are identical, so their effect in lowering their respective chains are also more or less identical--just depends on how much you want it to be up/stacked. And as mentioned, GC's faster recharge means a greater chance for the Achilles proc to be in effect which gives Kat even more of an edge.

Kat also has by far the better AoE attacks, and they recharge faster. This is something the devs really need to look at fixing for BS--FS &amp; Lotus do more damage, activate faster and for less or equal end. Lotus Drops is one of the best scrapper attacks, period.

One thing that's interesting is that the DPE calculation is about idential bet. Kat &amp; BS which belies the myth that BS is end-intensive. Still, it's Kat all the way for me. Well, except for the silly left handed usage.

Funny how most ppl sticking up for Psy/MM focus on the /MM powers.

/MM is very good. Psy/... not so much.

Psi Nado is the worst AoE blaster power. If you include cones, Howl just edges it out as the lowest damaging power, but I think Howl has a better 2ndary effect, tho the Knockups are good too. The other AoE is the nuke which is, well, a nuke so no real complaints there, but this pretty much makes Psy the worst AoE set (for an AT built for AoE damage). Son is pretty bad too, but at least you have multiple cones to play with.

ST damage is good, but it's not tops. Fire & Ice both beat it, Fire by quite a bit.

Ice & Son both have more/better controls. You could argue that Elec & En do also.

Thematically, it's nice enough, and we'll be able to change the colors in I16, but really, the Psy primary could use a bit of work.

[ QUOTE ]
cast sleet on each spawn (infrig, benumb, snow) are largely useless in spawn to spawn play

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me get this straight, Sleet &amp; Snow Storm are useless from spawn to spawn? Really?

[ QUOTE ]
Heat loss is nice, but the uber rech means it isn't part of 'regular' play, but cast it when needed; it is great.

[/ QUOTE ]

So 90 sec up (of infinite end), 30 sec down isn't good enough for you? I guess Recovery Aura is even less part of "regular" play.

[ QUOTE ]
cast repulsion bomb on each spawn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, much more useful from spawn to spawn, I'm sure.

Note, I'm not trying to knock FF, but if this is how you view the two sets, you really don't know how to fully utilize Cold.

[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to believe people are saying EM is 'broken' or "decent". With those statements it's hard to believe they even have one. I have an Invul/Enrg that performs quite well with ZERO damage Io's. Its still powerful in stats alone. I've had him since Issue 3, and while the animation is longer for transfer, it makes zero difference , your not a DPS classe, but you can still out scrapp most other tank AT's with ease.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you can't. Fire &amp; Stone both beat its ST damage. Virtually everything else beats it for AoE damage. Esp w/no damage IOs (does that mean you use SOs instead?). It might be "good enough" for you, but in any empirical test, you will get left in the dust.

Since you ask if "we" even play EM tanks (I've had mine since I0, btw), let me ask you: do you play the other tank sets, and to a high level? I play 5 of them (see sig) and have experience w/other sets as well. Whatever your evidence, it contradicts my own, and I have numbers to back mine up.

If you're happy with EM's state of affairs, good for you. You're having fun w/it and that's all that matters... to you. Please don't try to convince us that it's equal to the other sets when there are direct numbers to the contrary (yes, yes, you don't care about the numbers, I'm sure).

Ah, we're branching off into Snow Storm now.

I really slot up Frostbite for procs, end redux and of course acc so I usually rely on it for -fly. Agreed that for stuff like KHTF, SS would be very handy. I can't really remember what I did on that w/my Ice/Storm--because it exemps you down below your Tornado &amp; Lt Storm, I usually run it on other toons.

I LOVE running the ITF w/my Ice/Storm because of the KB resistant Cim mobs. I honestly never recall having much difficulty w/the end fight--no doubt Snow Storm would be of great help w/multiple AVs if you're on a less than ideal team, esp to slow down the healing nictus.

Like I said, it &amp; Shiver are good powers. I just always find better stuff to take, but then I specialize a lot. For a more rounded builds, they're absolutely good options. I'm also a bit biased against slow as a manner of control--when I first started w/my Ice/Storm (this is back in I0), I used to apply Ice Slick, FR and double stack Shiver. Then I dropped back to 1 Shiver. Then none. Really didn't notice that big of a difference for the most part. I think you get "enough" of it w/your other powers and don't really need anything that's dedicated to just slows, esp. as an Ice/Storm (yes, I realize SS does other stuff, esp -fly, which are handy).

Don't assume Consume will be up nearly enough for you to think it'll actually help your end woes. I got enough +recovery and end redux built into my Fire/Fire where I just dropped Consume altogether and am much, much happier for it.

I never needed Fire Sword leveling to Incinerate. Blazing Aura on, (BU +) FSC, then Scorch-Cremate-Scorch, and sure there's a gap, but most things are dead at that point (or you can do Scorch-Cremate-Scorch-FSC-Scorch-Cremate-Scorch, and really, nothing should be left at this point). FS *is* a better attack than Scorch, but I found I could better use the slot for other things. Note, FS-Cremate-FS will leave a gap before the 2nd FS which is why I'd recommend Scorch over FS.

My Ice/Storm hasn't needed either Shiver or Snow Storm since circa I4 or 5. Not to say they're not useful, but there are other things more important that layering on yet more slow powers. Even w/o AA, w/Frostbite &amp; Freezing Rain, you have plenty of -speed and -recharge. For resistant targets like AVs, you'll have your ST powers like BoI &amp; Chilblain to stack. Hell, even Jack has CE.

At this point, Shiver or AA will push you all the way to cap, esp against higher cons and resistant mobs. Both is just overkill; even if you're in a situation where you can't reliably use AA (or Shiver), you're still putting out enough slows that I don't think it's worth another power slot for Shiver (or AA). Maybe for other sets, but for Ice/Storm at least, I've always found Shiver *and* AA to be unnecessary.

As I implied to you in my PM response, you'd get a much better response if you asked for general advice, not just a straight out build. At the very least, attempt a build on your own and ask for critiques. Cap your ranged def, slot for damage, keep your end recovery high. Really not rocket science.

Oh, a hint: you don't need perma-hasten for an AV-soloing build. In fact, you likely won't get one because you need to focus more on defense. My build doesn't even have perma-AM (like 2 secs of downtime), because I could only spare it 4 slots, not the usual 5 or 6 to cap everything, that's how tight my build is.

Most scrappers do NOT get under 6 min times. Most of them are in the 10+ range (this is all w/no insps, no temps, btw). I saw one sick (for scrappers) time of 4:18, but my Fire/Rad still beats it, and he's not fully optimized for pylon soloing or anything. Anything under 10 min is *very* respectable for a set w/no bebuffs. Hell, just the fact that you could solo one period is very respectable, so gratz to the OP.

[ QUOTE ]
It all boils down to personal preference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gonna disagree with that. If you don't happen to care about the numbers at all, then yes, it *all* boils down to what you like. If you're talking about whether a set is balanced re: other sets, there are many objective arguments you can make to show EM needs help (of course, there are arguments you can make to show EM is just fine).

For instance, you can quantify a ranking for ST damage, AoE damage &amp; mitigation. How much weight you give each portion is subjective (i.e. personal preference). The ranking in each portion however is purely objective (well, maybe not mitigation since some ppl prefer stuns over KDs or whatever).

[ QUOTE ]
So, decent ST damage, excellent stun capabilities and low AoE damage make Energy Melee a decent set. EM is far from broken, it's just not for everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, that's the thing. When ET had a 1 sec animation, EM was a *great* ST damage set, which made up for its atrocious AoE damage. Now that it's only "decent", I really think it's on the low end of the tanker melee totem pole. Of course, something has to be on the bottom--I just wished it wasn't my very first tank to 50.

BTW, Barrage changes mean little, and in fact helped the set a bit. Barrage should never have been in anyone's attack chains to begin with, but since you're forced to take it anyway...

[ QUOTE ]
Sleet:
Again we come back to the "fast team". It unleashes some potent debuffing for 30 seconds. But what's the point when the team is already gone and done with the spawn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you slot Sleet (or FR) to recharge in 15-20 sec.

Generally speaking, high end teams really don't need FF level bubbles either tho mez protection is welcome. Then again, I'll take Son bubs &amp; Clarity (and Son Disp) over what FF brings for high DPS teams (also Disruption Field for the lead man (tank, scrapper, blaster, whatever)).

What are you guys arguing about again?

*Shrug* Decide for yourself:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Energy Melee Dam Act DPA
Barrage 58.7 1.33 37.06
Energy Punch 44.5 0.83 42.14
Bone Smasher 73 1.5 42.54
Whirling Hands 44.5 2.5 16.86
Energy Transfer 202.9 2.67 69.87
Total Focus 158.4 3.3 46.15

Fiery Melee Dam Act DPA
Scorch 48 1 40.40
Fire Sword 73 1.33 46.09
Combustion 57.8 3 18.24
Breath of Fire 74.7 2.67 25.72
FSC 83.6 2.67 28.79
Incinerate 111.2 1.67 60.17
Gr Fire Sword 144.1 2.33 57.46

Stone Melee Dam Act DPA
Stone Fist 44.49 0.83 42.13
Stone Mallet 73 1.61 39.50
Heavy Mallet 101.4 1.63 54.87
Hurl Boulder 73 2.5 27.65
Tremor 44.5 3.3 12.97
Seismic Smash 158.4 1.5 92.31
</pre><hr />

DPA calc includes Arcanatime. I haven't updated the very latest damage numbers from City of Data yet, but they should be close enough.

I'm including Stone &amp; Fire as comparisons for ST &amp; AoE damage. First off, EM's AoE is a joke. The only sets w/worse PBAoE attacks are Stone (see Tremor) and Axe w/Whirling Axe, but Axe gets 2 cones to supplement so it's far, far better than EM. So Stone is the only worse AoE damaging tanker set, and Tremor has a far better chance of KD than WH's stun %. Still, EM &gt; Stone, but worse than everything else at AoE, and by a lot. Well, maybe not Dark, but Soul Drain does more damage, tho obviously, it recharges slower, but depending on how well you leverage Shadow Maul (and Soul Drain), you're prolly breaking even w/Dark Melee as well.

ST? Well, ET is still a good attack, but no longer the monster it used to be. Your best attack chain is likely EP-ET-EP-TF-EP-BS or something along those lines. Fire Melee can beat that w/FS, Incinerate &amp; GFS, and Stone beats it w/some combination of Stone Fist, Heavy Mallet &amp; Seismic Smash.

Stuns? TF is a guaranteed mag 3, which isn't as good as a guaranteed mag 4 hold in Seismic Smash. All the other stuns in the set are % to stuns which aren't all that reliable, plus they tend to wander away. I'd rather have higher % KDs/KUs than a low-to-mid % stun. Still, EM is better at ST than say Ice Melee or SS or DB... well, until you start adding Rage or combos. It's definitely better than Mace or Axe for pure ST damage, though not by a whole hell of a lot.

Dam type? Well, at least EM isn't all smashing--the energy component is nice to have unlike say Stone or SS, or the all lethal sets too, so that's a plus. I'd rather have Ice or Fire Melee for that tho, and you'd get far, FAR better AoE damage in those two sets as well.

So yeah, I'm not that thrilled w/EM in any way shape or form. It needs help. It doesn't even look cool--I *hate* the new ET animation, btw, tho some ppl seem to like it. At least we'll be able to get rid of the *pink* pom poms in I16.

[ QUOTE ]
For me the turn off to this set was 2 things. One is the lack of self protection powers (sorry but arctic fog doesnt cut it against smashing lethal damage)

[/ QUOTE ]

Arctic Fog (and Steamy Mist) helps you hit def cap fairly... well, not easily, but easier than w/o, so that takes care of your S/L damage just fine.

My Cold defender's up to around 40% ranged &amp; 36% AoE def, and not quite done. He really doesn't get hit much any more, if at all.

If you don't like Heat Loss, you must positively hate Recovery Aura. *shrugs*

"Where's my %$*@ heal arrow?!"

Most TAs get it.

Yeah, I'm sitting on a set of Armageddons that I haven't slotted yet, bought for around 45M a piece a couple of months ago (am waiting on the next freespec to unslot my Posi set), and I'm sorta tempted to just sell them. It's not like they're *that* much better than Posi's, at least for that particular build. Then again, it's not like I need the cash...

All in all, I'm glad I don't focus on purple sets for most of my builds. My uber, GM-soloing builds do fine w/o a single purp.

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, it's to each person's taste what they like and what they dislike. In my opinion, the only difference between the two is Cold focuses on debuffing while FF offers crowd control.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, FF doesn't offer CC any more than Cold does, which is to say a small amount. KB, repelling, locking out works about as well as slows, knockdowns and end drain for most practical purposes, and neither set are going to send controllers to the unemployment line any time soon, excepting that w/the added defense both provide, you might not need any real CC.

FF offers more concentrated buffs. Cold offers more variety of buffs and debuffs. Neither are "controlling" sets any more than any other AT in the game (my blasters control by killing too).

Everyone talks about Heat Loss as some amazing debuff (okay, it is). Please also remember that it essentially gives you and most of your team infinite end. 90 sec up, around 30 sec down, it's as good or better than RA and recharges way faster (360 base vs 500). Granted, it's easier to say "Gather for RA" than explain to your team how HL works and where they should position themselves...

So a few other minor critiques/comments...

-AM: On I/O slotting, I really like frankenslotting in here. Unfortunately, there are only 2 sets that give you the rech/end mod combo at lvl 50, so you need to grab some unnecessary bonuses to best efficiently slot AM.

The slotting of Efficiency Adaptor's Endmod/Rech and Endmod/Acc/Rech, and Perf. Shifer's Endmod/Rech, Endmod/Acc/Rech will w/just 4 slots give you almost 92% bonus to both end mod &amp; rech with lvl 50 IOs, which is almost the ED cap. If you really want to hit ED cap, you can add a 5th Energy Manipulator Endmod/Rech, and in fact, until you can get the lvl 50 IOs (at lvl 47), this is exactly what you should do. Once you hit lvl 47, it's really up to the player to determind if those extra 3-4 seconds of recharge is worth a slot, and considering that may get you to perma-AM, it may well be.

-Lingering Rad - I always thought Rad's holy trinity referred to RI, EF &amp; AM, not the holy *debuff* trinity of RI, EF &amp; LR? I'm sure there's some conflation involved. In any case, I'm surprised that you don't emphasize LR's role in AV fights more in the description section (haven't read tactics yet). I find LR as a pure slow power largely unnecessary for most fights and only use it for the -regen for AV/GM fights, and I don't think I'm in the minority in this one.

-Fallout - I totally agree on your take, but the power is awesome for things like Rikti MS raids where there's almost always a pile of dead bodies to be abused. Great for dual builds, taken w/Recall Friend and Vengence (yes, the dreaded leadership pool!).

-EMP - Shouldn't the description be, 1 of *3* best holds in the game along w/VG &amp; EMP Arrow? Unless you consider EMP &amp; EMP Arrow to be the same power.

-First build - "Jump" pool really should be "Leaping"

-Deceive section - I always thought deceiving things like Rikti guardians (for the free AM) and stuff like that were cool in concept and giggle worthy the first few times, but in practice not worth the effort. I do find that deceiving FF generators of all kinds really, really worthwhile, if only to get rid of the bubble for the enemy (that you get it for yourself is a nice side effect too).

-Misc - I recently starting using my TP bind for any useful targetted location powers, like PA &amp; ST.

/bind lshift+lbutton "powexec_name Phantom Army"
/bind lshift+rbutton "powexec_name Spectral Terror"
/bind lshift+mbutton "powexec_name &lt;insert power&gt;"
etc

The thing is that w/the left mouse button, the power gets cast immediately (left shift + mouse click and PA appears where your cursor is), but w/the other two buttons (the mbutton is your wheel, btw), you then have to click the left mouse button again to actually cast, so it's not quite as convenient, which is why I assign my most important power (PA) to lbutton, and ST to rbutton. Then again, you're likely to use ST more often, so might want to switch the two around.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once I got to higher levels, I got rid of Stone Cages and Stalagmites, and never took Stone Prison. Ghetto holds are for lesser controllers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kids, this is very, very, very bad advice. Never under any circumstances skip Stalagmites. And certainly don't try and replace it with Salt Crystals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that's awful. I don't care what you replace it with, you never get rid of Stalagmites. And that's coming form an Earth/TA which is already considered control overkill.

If you can't manage your end enough to use Stone Cages as a means of effective AoE damage, then by all means, don't play with it. Do not offer the bad advice of saying to avoid it however. Yikes.

Not sure what's so wrong with "damage first". I just posted this for Local's Ill/Rad guide, so have the text handy:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Fire control Dam Act DPA
Ring of Fire 33.6 1.17 25.45
Char 33.6 1.07 25.45

Fire Blast Dam Act DPA
Flares 63.19 1 53.19
Fire Blast 92.576 1.67 50.10
</pre><hr />

With containment, if you can match a fire blaster's ST output (albeit w/o defiance or BU or Aim, but they can't FS themselves either) while holding/immobing something, why not? Not saying by any stretch that this is the only, or even preferred, way to go, but it's certainly a good option to consider.

Note, this mostly goes for fire controllers--the other control sets do not offer this level of damage. Like anyone needs to be told this.

Mind you, if I ever see a Fire/* w/o FF slotted (for stuns!) or even Cinders (again, for holds!), I tend to tear out my hair, but taking some of your control powers and slotting for damage is a very valid tactic, esp for Char &amp; RoF (also Bonfire, but we won't get into that here; Hotfeet goes w/o saying).