aqshy2004

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There should be no attack in the game other than Nukes, that should do more than 75% of a squishies health, period. This game will be a better place.

[/ QUOTE ]Let me guess you must be a blaster that had his first experience with a stalker.

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Let me guess, you're a stalker......

You mean they don't pop red inspirations before delivering the fatal blow?!?!......They went from tankers to stalkers too fast, don't you think?

They should get something like this:

The more tanks become injured, the more resilient they become.

A useful PvP inherent power too IMO.

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if tanks are to have 2-ply toilet paper defenses and moderate at best damage over time, then brutes, with their 1-ply toilet paper defenses but the ability to dole out so much damage that they can solo Elite bosses (again, something my I4 tanks couldn't do at comparable levels), are a much much more attractive solution to me. They are more of tank to me right now than any of my yellow-spine kiting trickster Tankers because they have a reason to stay in the belly of the beast: they can hang, toe to toe with the worst. I sure wish my Tanks still could.

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Really? I've found my brute a lot more fragile than my tank. Fury is nice, but it doesn't help a lot when leading a charge (as it has to build up momentum).

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Charging 600,000 - 7 million to place items we have EARNED the schematics for and EARNED the salvage for and EARNED The room it goes and EARNED the plot upgrade is just not right. A device costs more than the freaking plot!


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They are still trying to mask they don't have content. If you want better, try WOW. Of course you can't fly there

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LOL, sadly it's starting to sound convincing...

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Support doesn't occur in a continuous scale or gradient. It occurs in discrete steps. The difference between scrapper and tanker survival is smaller than the difference between one of these steps.


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Sorry if I am not stating it clearly enough for you, Aqshy. Da5id's example is really the best way to look at it. I know that a Tanker can take more damage than a Scrapper, however, the difference in how much doesn't matter when you add in support.

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Yeah, I agree with you.

That example of tanking made by the main tank we should all be looking up to.....Hilarious! hehehehe.....hehehe.....he

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I realize the thread is long asqshy, but at least try to keep up.


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Sorry man, this post is reaching biblical proportions


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This is a strawman that we've knocked down a few times already. Nobody is claiming that a tanker is less tough than a scrapper.

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Sorry if I misunderstood their point then

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Unsuported OBVIOUSLY tankers will last longer (a whole 5 seconds say, intead of 2).

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Roflol....well you guys have a point. Yesterday we faced the envoy of shadows. I was using my scrapper so I went down like an insect but well, regen isn't THE POWA anymore so....a friend of mine brought his Invul tank and he lasted less than me! (he hadn't respec'd to ED, but I couldn't believe I6 could bork an entire ok I5 build like that).

Something needs to be done about the RE/RE thing.


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The point is that the meagre unsupported defense we bring is too marginal to do anything except "tank" in a useless fashion a la statesman. (Though he was working on a team WITH support! ) A team would be FAR better off bringing a defender instead of the tanker to provide the entire team with more damage mitigation than a tanker's primary could.

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Yeah, like I said in another post, his example of tanking was rather.....disappointing......You go into a carnies mob and taunt strong steelman?!?!?, What the hell is wrong with statesman?!?!

Anyway, lets hope something useful comes out of this.

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The main problem with this situation is that, if Tankers need the same support that a Scrapper does to deal with aggro,

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Here's a big misunderstanding. Tankers need support but not the same kind of support as scrappers (scrapps need more).
Like I said, we can meet on the test server and fight without support to see who can out-tank who defense wise.
Having said that, I won't complain if you people get the devs to listen and the RE/RE powers get revamped....because the benefits these powers give is too low.

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The question here is a Tanker's role in a post ED environment. Do we have a distinct function or can we just be replaced by another AT and forgotten?

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I think this game almost achieves balance in as any AT can be replaced (and forgotten ) and be efficient.
Before the changes, we were basically THE team.

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If Statesman's "example" is the future of Tanking, then I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but we are sadly moving toward the latter.

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Certainly not the best example of "heroic" tanking I mean, any tanker worth its salt would jump and whack the ring mistresses and the master illusionists, then "taunt" (or whatever) the rest of the weaklings. It wasn't the image I was expecting from Statesman, that's for sure!

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I didn't want to go there.

The thing is, that seems to be what States' expects to be the role of the AT. If you are doing more, then the AT may need to be taken down some more.

How much is enough, and what should you expect. Apparently the contribution that Statesman's Tank made was sufficient to meet expectations.

If that is the case, then the question becomes, is it worth playing a character that contributes that much (little)?

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He "tanked" 1/3 of a spawn for 7. He took up a little more than twice his share. On a team with any sort of non-melee AT i'd expect any scrapper to at LEAST do this much. I think it's pretty clear that states' grand vision for tanks is nothing more than scrankers who draw a little more aggro than the vastly more offensively effective scrappers.

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Exactly how does a Scrapper with less defense than a tank do do at LEAST as much defensively? That makes no sense. Since other than Regen and Dark they are using the same numbers but lower than Tanks no Scrapper is going to be able to deal with damage better.

Statements like this are why nothing comes of these threads. There is no basis for them. They are little better than the obvious flames.

The Devs respond to facts not opinions.

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Look at his team composition with an emp and a kin supporting him, my scrapper does it all the time. With just an emp my controller can handle all the aggro he gets from his holds. With just an emp my regen scrapper becomes ultra regen/SR tanker/capped damage with unlimited endurance and healing there's very little that can stop me I have tanked avs and herded with my scrapper with just an emp buffing and healing me.

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When you dont have "pocket defenders" and all that there's no chance your scrapper can do what a tank does defense-wise. Wanna bet? Bring your scrapper and I'll bring my tanker to the test server and we'll see who takes damage better.

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and the rent is outrageous.

It needs to scale partially by SG size.

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Agreed. Once your small SG gets enough things, the rent will cripple it.

Apparently not

Simple: When you go to the create hero screen, does the kheld option still appears or not?....was wondering...

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There are LEGIONS of Blizzard fans - of course they'd play WoW! And it's a phenomenal game!

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He doesn't hate WoW?!?!?

*Starts singing REM*

*IT'S THE EEEEND OF THE WOOORLD AS WE KNOW IT!*

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DJJester wrote:
1) The Smaller stuff is coming.. think about it this way.. the large supergroups are working out the bugs before you have to worry about it.. and believe me.. there have been MANY bugs to deal with (one player of my SG lost 71 MILLION influence doing a transfer to prestige)


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How about release things that EVERYONE can use first. Then more people are testing it. Or here's another idea: test it fully, and don't release buggy crap.

The above changes nothing. Waiting months for stuff that everyone can enjoy is absurd. This is basically advanced player housing because Cryptic figured out modern MMOs have player housing. Well, implementing it on the guild level first, and not on an individual level is just foolish. That just means a lot less people get to enjoy the feature.

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DJJester wrote:
2) Large Supergroups should have an advantage over smaller ones.. the arguement "I pay as much as they do" doesn't hold water because in actuality you don't. 75 active people working together pay more than you do solo or as a group of 74.


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First of all, the SG I am in is so huge we actually have to use 4 SGs for the members (and probably need more soon as well). I would classify it is a traditional "Uber Guild" (Forgotten Legion on Triumph, www.forgottenlegion.net) So be careful when you make assumptions.

Secondly, large supergroups should NOT have any coded advantages. They already have tremendous advantages from their sheer size. In our big SG, you can set up virtually any Trial, Task Force, or group with incredibly ease- even on the fly. You barely even have to plan them because there are so many people available. Small SGs already have huge disadvantages because they cannot do that. But that is their choice, so that's fine. But don't go and cripple them even further by deliberately releasing MAJOR content that is heavily biased towards Uber Guilds.

Thirdly, there are a lot more casual players than hardcore, large SG players. So 75 casual players pay just as much to play the game as 75 people in a maxed out SuperGroup. Why should the people in the Uber Guild get to enjoy one of the most significant new pieces of content but the casual players have no hope of enjoying it at all? That's crazy. It is bad game design and it just doesn't make sense.

Sure, some immature, pee-pee waving, Uber Guild nimrods love the idea. Probably the same folks here who think just because their SG has been around for a long time, they should automatically get more prestige. Sorry, stop thinking you are anything special just because you are in a big SG. You aren't special. Each member is still ultimately just a single customer. Thinking you are entitled to a better experirence or more features than anyone else is asinine, selfish, and misguided.


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DJJester wrote:
3) Just be patient and try to actually participate in the conversation here instead of screaming useless comments about how you pay as much as someone else and should be able to do anything you want.


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I participated by explaining how poorly designed the whole concept is. The huge flaw here is that it is enormously biased towards huge Uber Guilds. I'm IN one, and I still think this. If anything, that proves I do not have an inherent bias that is controlling my opinion.

The whole system is inherently contradictory as well. If you want to enjoy the content, you need to be in a huge SG. But if you are in a huge SG, there are too many people for everyone to have editing privileges, or for everyone to be able to craft things (the costs would be way too high). But if you are in a small SG, where more people COULD be allowed to "do stuff", you don't have enough prestige to do anything.

It is totally jacked up from the core design and needs a complete overhaul.

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I agree with cambios. Bad implementation of a good idea.

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You wanna know why Tanks don't work in PvP? It's because they don't really work in PvE.

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My experience in PvP has been very different from yours. It's fun to have 4/5 people wailing on you unable to bring you down (even got tells of "wow you've taken a lot of damage!"). The trick is to know when to use your inspirations and the unstoppable panic button.

I wouldn't make definitive comments based on personal experience only Foo.


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Why would I start playing a Tank now? Can't a Scrapper get enough aggro to "tank" on the terms Statesman outlines above?

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On those terms, any AT can get enough aggro but none can stand it like a tank. Scrappers go down waaay faster than our beloved AT's in I6. I've seen it enough times now. The difference in the defense department is bordering on brutal, for better or for worse.


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Heck, give it an issue and I'll just port my Brute over from CoV and he can do everything a Tank reasonably can be expected to do, plus I get to do more damage!

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I know you always wanted to take secondary powers first foo, that's why you're so in love with brutes!


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There's no reason I can find to play a Tank anymore, aside from stubborness, ignorance, masochism, or lack of access to CoV.

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Not really. If someone wants to fight close and personal and be very resilient, I would recommend making a tank over ANY AT any day.

Not everyone saw Issue 3/4 tanks to know what they missed.

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So no, after investing that much time in a character I'm not happy with mediocrity, especially when it's enforced mediocrity.

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You call mediocrity not being able to fight +5 purples anymore without any help AT ALL?....Throw a silly taunt and aggro 16 thugs like flies to garbage? HE-LLO!!!

Welcome to a more balanced game.

What do you miss? The out-blown defenses we got from 32+?....Herding half the map set on invincible?....You are just addicted to what became a broken AT in the late levels. If you really invested all those hours in your tank and erased it like he was level 5....read your Abraham Lincon's quote!!!

2 SG friends did the skyraiders AND freaks respec trial as a duo. Illusion/rad controller and Ice/Ice blaster. It wasn't a surprise they could do it, but.....A mission which should be based on teamwork is duo'ed and people say the game's balanced?!?!.......When I fancied it, I could solo invincible missions designed for 6/7 people (except AV and heavy Psi opponents). I fought +7 carnies when I got a "look for 45 carnies in the streets of PI" (without ring mistresses or master illusionists). I could herd half the friggin' Dreck mission map. I'm sure you could do that too. If that's what made you great in other people's eye, there were 100,000 others like you. Stroking your online ego is gratifying, but....get real....

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A wise man by the name of Abraham Lincoln once said:

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

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You need to read that another hundred times boy because this:

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With the direction the dev team is going, they ought to simply remove the tank archetype completely for as much use as they'll be.

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Proves nothing and makes Abraham Lincon right.

Anyway, it's been amusing. Keep up your lost crusade, I'll be playing and having fun with my tank and other assorted characters....ah, you won't be able to play your tank, you erased it.....

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I already did. You might be happy with mediocrity, but I'm not.

Next?

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You erased your pvl'd tank because you couldn't adjust and you use the mediocrity card?.....The irony of this post is.....amazing! lol

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Good lord.

Just bite the bullet and remove the Tanker archetype from the game, already.

I love how this was put in with NO announcement whatsoever.

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Yes, ED made it harder, I'm not able to pull off the stunts I was used to but I'm happy with my tank, so speak for yourself.

Why don't you remove your Tanker from your account and be done with it?

Great Q&A guide man, very helpful, thanks for your post

Lone heroes should get their apartments in founders fall....nah too fancy, make it kings row

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Does this happen every time an update is released?

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Pretty much. This game has been ruined by devs with people and guilds quitting since early beta. Some days the drama is funny, and sometimes it's just bewildering.

Don't be afraid to use the 'ignore this user' option on people's prfile page that you can access by clicking on their name.

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They say CoH servers are only populated by me and 5 other guys who like the changes.

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YOU DO NOT NEED STAMINA. The "requirement" of Stamina is simply in your head. The Necessity of Stamina has been greatly exagerated.

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Please remember this is YOUR opinion... please don't qualify it as a fact.


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I've gotta agree with LiquidX on this actually. Any build can make it to 50 without Stamina; that's a fact. It may be easier with Stamina than without, but it's possible. Thus it's not "required".

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lol ... sure if you say that you are dependent on others.

DA is either dependent on a buffer OR on getting Stamina. Otherwise there is no way DA can afford that endo drain.

I guess if you argued that it's ok for them to take 25 years to hit level 50 then yeah they could do it but personally I'll grant DA the arguement that they need Stamina.

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Have you tried doing just that?....a friend of mine doesn't have it (yeah MA/DA without stamina, just end reducers) it slows him down a lot, but he definitely doesn't need stamina.

If you need to hit level 50 right now then you need stamina....

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If the standard truely was "if invincible offers no challenge prepare yourself for the nerf bat", that wouldn't be so bad. The problem is that the standard really is "if anyone with your powerset has less challenge than we want you to have, prepare for the nerfbat." If you're not min/maxing the build, learn now, the nerfs are going to be designed so that the min-maxers are brought to "normal" so anyone less optimized will be subnormal.

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And this my friends, is my problems with "nerfs" in a nut shell. Yeah sure, SOMETIMES something really IS out of wack and needs fixed, but 9 times out of 10, nerfs happen because a few people learn how to beat the system, and the rest of us "normal" gamers are the ones that end up paying for it. I can't DO what tankers on these boards brag about. I can't herd whole maps... i can't solo AV's. (I have a hard team beliving this one personally..) I can't tank 50 +7's, at all, let alone go cook dinner while i do it. But apperently people here brag they can, the dev's belive them, and nerf us ALL as a resualt. Ah well... at least my tank hit 50, and i hae my memerories of being a "super" hero... seeing as how Statesmen's plan for 50's basically involves rerolling... I'll guess i'll give that a shot... Can you at least tell me, Mr. Statesmen, who you aren't going to nerf anytime soon... so i can give them a shot.... You've said Defender are where you like them... but i've heard that before about... tanks... scrappers.... hammi o's.....

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Strangely, one of the "Tanker" nerfs didn't affect casual players in the *slightest* because they weren't hitting the 90% resistance cap that they added.

Changes can only affect the power levelers/min-maxers. Say they add code to mobs that after you get 30+ mobs within 30' of each other they debuffed defense and resistance around them? How does that affect people that don' herd?

Very little, as if they are getting more than 30+ mobs, they were probably going to die anyways, where as the min-maxers were not even ruffled before, and now they have run into a hard limit that they won't be able to supercede.

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But the poster you answered to is a casual player who wouldn't think of plvl'g his toons on farming missions and bridges!.....and cows have grown wings too, it's amazing!

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While i am happy with the change, there are alot of people who need the respec now, not latter.


There builds were created due to HOs, now there "gimped" so when will they get there respec?

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Their characters are gimped because of the change?!?!?....you gotta stop being an hipocrite!!!....you are still better because those things buff 2/3 things at the same time.

Can someone PM statesman and ask him about jetpacks?