Hamidon Enhancement changes explained
By
aqshy2004,
Posted on: 2005-06-21 13:20 in Developers' Corner
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We might giving out more respecs in the future, though I cant make any definitive comment on that.
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But you said that you WERE giving them out after I5 last week. You backing off on that? 
EDIT:
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Stuff that went missing after we had to remove some posts: (From States)
BTW, the "endgame system" that I was discussing was PvE...As I've said, we need to develop an endgame above and beyond Hamidon. Designing such a system with Hammies at their previous boost simply threw things too out of whack.
And Hammies WILL be combinable in the near future...
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By your own words, Risk vs Reward for a level 50 means nothing.
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Unless, of course, the endgame introduces risk for level 50's.
Yes, players will get respecs (probably after I5)....
No, we aren't rebalancing any powers due to the Hamidon changes... (just trying to answer questions I see).
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
While i am happy with the change, there are alot of people who need the respec now, not latter.
There builds were created due to HOs, now there "gimped" so when will they get there respec?
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We might giving out more respecs in the future, though I cant make any definitive comment on that.
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But you said that you WERE giving them out after I5 last week. You backing off on that?
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Not at all - just can't give a definitive date on I5.
can i have my L53 SOs back that i replaced with the now crappier HOs.
Why aren't HOs equal to +3 SOs? Wouldn't that be more fair? I for one deleted a lot of 53s to replace them with Hammis.
"after I5" is well, open ended...
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2) As we sat down to create PvE content for level 50s an endgame a problem quickly arose. There were those that had Hammies (either a little or a lot) and those that didnt. In City of Heroes, weve tried to avoid the lewt syndrome common in other MMPs; I worried that the endgame that we were working on would either work for those that had lots of Hammies or those that didnt. There wasnt an easy or effective way that the PvE experience could be balanced for both crowds. If we tuned the endgame to cater to the Hammie players, then everyone who hadnt done multiple Hamidon raids would be left out. If we tuned it for those with lots of Hammies, then the have-nots would be at a HUGE disadvantage. Quite frankly, Hamidon Enhancements boosted powers too much. So weve brought them down to the point where we can now balance an endgame for both crowds. Those with Hammies will still be more powerful than those without, but the overall experience will still be fun.
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The changes didn't bother me that much, but this does beg the question: Why not just balance the endgame content without considering HOs and let HOs be a plus? If someone isn't having "fun" being so powerful, then they had the easy option of erasing those HOs.
Since CoH depends so strongly on instancing, contested encounters is much less of a problem. And since Hamidon Enhancers are the only form of "loot" and even then, not a contested form of loot (anyone at a raid can get one) there is no competition among players.
So if I'm enjoying the endgame with my "overpowered" HOs, and someone else is enjoying the endgame without them, what's the problem?
I suppose that you could have the issue of people discriminating against those without HOs in team selection, but they can still do that now. They can discriminate by saying that I want a defender instead of a scrapper. Also, there doesn't appear to be much of a problem with this.
So I guess another way to ask the question is: "Why take away an option that allows players more creativity in their builds, and more subjective "fun" to enforce a standard of challenge that can never be balanced among builds, ATs, and skill level?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
If an HO = SO power, but effects two attributes of said power, why would you need the 50++ SO? States just said they are working on combining them, why not wait til that is implemented so you can combine rather than ask for something you know is not coming?
Common sense goes a long way...
Seems to me like getting a 33% boost to two aspects is like getting a 66% boost from one enhancement overall, no?
I have no issue with this decision, but I would like more solid info on Issue 5!
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We will not be changing the recharge times for any powers because of the changes to the Hamidon Enhancements; those recharge times are still where we want them to be right now. We might giving out more respecs in the future, though I cant make any definitive comment on that. And Hamidon Enhancements will eventually be combinable.
Just wanted to clear some things up. Sorry I was gone for the weekend and didnt have time to hit the boards before now.
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God no! Please don't make them combineable. Just make them be 53s. The idea that since I have nothing else to work towards in the game with my 50 toons having only to do Hami Raids to +, nevermind ++ the Hami-Os I have which I can't choose the drops. Do you know how long it took to even slot with single Hami-Os?!?! Pleeaaaase! Make all the ones we have now and further drops be 53s so we don't all lose our minds. You've already knocked them down from 50% to 33%, just don't throw all our hard work away and make them 53 drops and switch over the ones we have now that are slotted at 50 to 53s. Pleaaaaase! I beg you!
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Stamina will be nerfed. I suppose this is just conjecture from the UpAllNight interview. I am concerned that Stamina is perceived as necessary for some builds, but not for others.
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If you want to make Stamina not necessary, I suggest looking at the end cost of powers, allowing people to save 3 power slots and a power pool choice because it isnt necessary would be the way to go.
Also, I reiterate, PLEASE DO NOT MAKE HOs combinable. Why cant you just make them +3? I've done over 100 raids, and I refust to do 200 more to combine the damn things. Especially, when SOs are MUCH cheaper.
I'd personally like to see the HO's made to equal 50+ lvl, so they would at least be green (yeah I'm anal).
Other than that, koo.
Thx States
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While i am happy with the change, there are alot of people who need the respec now, not latter.
There builds were created due to HOs, now there "gimped" so when will they get there respec?
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Their characters are gimped because of the change?!?!?....you gotta stop being an hipocrite!!!....you are still better because those things buff 2/3 things at the same time.
The decision to make Hamidon's combinable means that people may farm him even more in order to get ++ enhancers. This, I believe, exacerbates the situation by making it seem like even more of a must-have lewt that we need to repeatedly farm 3 times as much as before?
Is this something that will be addressed, because people on the way up the levels now are going to be even more put off by this.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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While i am happy with the change, there are alot of people who need the respec now, not latter.
There builds were created due to HOs, now there "gimped" so when will they get there respec?
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Their characters are gimped because of the change?!?!?....you gotta stop being an hipocrite!!!....you are still better because those things buff 2/3 things at the same time.
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What if they gave up 3 slots out of 6 slots to use somewere else?
Now the 3 slots in them have a even lvl SO (yea i know to 2-3 things but still its a even lvl SO)
At 50 i would never have a SO with out it being atleast ++.
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The changes didn't bother me that much, but this does beg the question: Why not just balance the endgame content without considering HOs and let HOs be a plus? If someone isn't having "fun" being so powerful, then they had the easy option of erasing those HOs.
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If I had to guess (and well, I do actually), I think the easy answer to your question is that in balancing the endgame content, the Dev team determined that HOs as they were previously blew the reward out of proportion to the risk. In one of the deleted Statesman posts summed up by Cuppa in the official thread, Statesman indicated that the endgame content will have some risk, even for 50s. If an HO'd character has significantly reduced risk compared to a non-HO'd character, than the equation for the content is blown.
By extending your reasoning, I could ask: "Why aren't all missions set to a level challenging to a solo emp/psy defender, and if you're a different AT it's a bonus". Statesman clearly doesn't want Loot to overly skew the risk v. reward equation.
I'm sure I'll be labelled a nerfherder, a dev apologist and all sorts of things,(Hopefully not by you EG) but viewed this way the change makes sense to me. I suspect this will not be the only change we see as a result of high end content. There has to be some kind of change to introduce risk. The high end content that all level 50s want will come with a price. It has to. Moreover, I think Statesman will want characters to be able to jump into the endgame content. If New50's much older buddy, who had nothing to do with his L50 but Hammi raids for 5 months is breezing through content that's killilng him, New50 is going to decide the only way to do the content is to first farm Hammi for awhile. I don't think this is what States or the devs want.
Of course, I may be talking out my [self-censored], but that's they way I see it.
Statesman, I think you would satisfy many players if HO were the equivalent of corresponding lvl 53 SO enhancements. If this were done, the combining of HOs wouldn't be necessary (I bet Positron would be happy to hear that).
Please consider this option before making a decision.
"Goodbye, Jean-Luc. I'm gonna miss you... you had such potential. But then again, all good things must come to an end..." -- Q
the problem with your train of thought, is that you assume that you have an HO that does effect 2 parts of said power.
but the reality is that HOs, like damage/mez and damage/range , atleast to me, are 10times more common.
so while i have like few dam/acc, i have a dozen+ of dam/mez
to which makes this less than than an SO
when i figured it up the other day, i will need 2 repecs to deslot those HOs or just delete them
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The changes didn't bother me that much, but this does beg the question: Why not just balance the endgame content without considering HOs and let HOs be a plus? If someone isn't having "fun" being so powerful, then they had the easy option of erasing those HOs. Since CoH depends so strongly on instancing, contested encounters is much less of a problem. And since Hamidon Enhancers are the only form of "loot" and even then, not a contested form of loot (anyone at a raid can get one) there is no competition among players.
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If I had to guess, I'd say that most of the "endgame" they're developing is more cooperative raids, which means Hami full and Hami empty 50's working together. And that's probably where the balance issue comes.
If they added three more 50+ raids, with rewards, and Hami full players can do them more quickly and more easily than non-Hami 50's, the disparity is going to get worse.
But, that's just a guess......
Here's my question: What happened that the cycle of Hami getting harder got broken? There were at least 3, if not 4 times, where, when a strategy was found, a patch would make him hard again. How come that seemed to stop?
Are our players just that good 
There were two basic reasons why we decreased the % boost of Hamidon Enhancements.
1) The encounter simply didnt justify the reward amount. Hamidon, though difficult, was not tough enough to merit Enhancements of a 50% boost to any aspect. We felt that the new value equivalent to boosting two aspects of a power by a SO level was appropriate.
2) As we sat down to create PvE content for level 50s an endgame a problem quickly arose. There were those that had Hammies (either a little or a lot) and those that didnt. In City of Heroes, weve tried to avoid the lewt syndrome common in other MMPs; I worried that the endgame that we were working on would either work for those that had lots of Hammies or those that didnt. There wasnt an easy or effective way that the PvE experience could be balanced for both crowds. If we tuned the endgame to cater to the Hammie players, then everyone who hadnt done multiple Hamidon raids would be left out. If we tuned it for those with lots of Hammies, then the have-nots would be at a HUGE disadvantage. Quite frankly, Hamidon Enhancements boosted powers too much. So weve brought them down to the point where we can now balance an endgame for both crowds. Those with Hammies will still be more powerful than those without, but the overall experience will still be fun.
One could immediately say then why didnt you wait to change the Hamidon Enhancements until the endgame was finished and implemented? Simple: better to solve the issue now rather than later. If we had waited, more people would have obtained even more Hammies and thus been even more disappointed when we did eventually change the Hamidon %.
Youll note that the two issues above are purely PvE related. The Hamidon changes were instigated by PvE problems, not PvP. Was PvP a consideration? To a degree, yes. But if Hamidon Enhancements were ONLY a PvP problem, then I would have tried to solve those issues in PvP alone. But Hamidons were a problem that stretched into PvE. Thus, the solution covered both PvP and PvE.
I read some interesting things that Ive supposedly said: Hamidon Enhancements will never be nerfed. PvE will never be changed because of PvP. Stamina will be nerfed.
Heres what Ive actually said
Were happy with the way Hamidon Enhancements are working right now. And I was happy at the time. The end game issue came up when I started looking at the endgame.
PvE will never be changed solely because of PvP. I dont want any PvP problem to be solved with a PvE change unless theres also a problem in PvE.
Stamina will be nerfed. I suppose this is just conjecture from the UpAllNight interview. I am concerned that Stamina is perceived as necessary for some builds, but not for others.
We will not be changing the recharge times for any powers because of the changes to the Hamidon Enhancements; those recharge times are still where we want them to be right now. We might giving out more respecs in the future, though I cant make any definitive comment on that. And Hamidon Enhancements will eventually be combinable.
Just wanted to clear some things up. Sorry I was gone for the weekend and didnt have time to hit the boards before now.