Winterminal

I am inclined to lean this way as well. Although we already have multiple DE giant monsters in the game, I could see this four-legged atrocity being very different and interesting in its own right, so I would be in favor of it. But I sort of agree that full-blown dinosaurs, even if they were in a zone like Cimerora, would feel a tad out of place.

I too have been on 3-team Raids before. I just meant it was low compared with the past few weeks when we have had a full league with people still trying to get in.

Touche` good sir!

Everyone has their off-nights and last night was ours. An unusually low turnout (about 5 full teams), and quite the rocky start for the raid as a whole. But I have to hand it to you all, we were able to retreat, get our bearings, and come back at them with a vengeance. Way to rally and win the day, Pinnacle!

Next week is the holiday weekend, so there will be NO RAID on Sunday. I am sure some of us may still be around, but I know my schedule is still up in the air, and I imagine that may be true for many of you as well. A decision regarding whether or not to hold a raid on New Year's Day will be made by December 25th.

From me and the rest of the Talsorian Guard, Happy Holidays!

With you last response to my most recent post, I think I finally understood where it is your coming from. (Though, I have to say, I enjoyed the lengthy back-and-forth discussion!)

I just have to chime in that I agree with the quote entirely! From a narrative point, it bugs the crap out of me.

Here's where I draw the line, and why most of my characters don't use more than 1 Incarnate power a piece. (Note: "use" not "have," as a few of my characters have taken powers purely for the level shifts because I don't believe in the same Praetorians that I fought in Maria Jenkins's arc suddenly being so much stronger.) This also goes back to what I have been mentioning quite a bit in this thread already: a specialization and focus of characters. A character that I designed for "street crime" would not be an Incarnate. The Well's power hungry nature would be uninterested in his level of power, and he would not be the kind to go in search of artifacts, or make gadgets, etc., because his focus would be protecting the streets.

When I think up and design a character, despite taking my time and enjoying the journey as he discovers his powers, I usually have an end result in mind in terms of level of power and ability. But 99% of the time it does not involve getting to 50 and suddenly gaining unusual abilities, by any means (Well, gadgets, etc.). If I take an Incarnate ability on my character, it is because that ability is an obvious extension of their already-present powers and/or concept. For example: My ice blaster only took Cryonic Judgement, while my super soldier concept toon took the Cardiac Alpha. Some might call this a lack of imagination, but it is not that I gave up and decided that I could not justify any of the Incarnate abilities, because if I wanted their concept/story to take a paradigm shift and have them suddenly gain powers unrelated to their previous powers, I could think up a worthwhile explanation. Rather, their stories do not call for that level of power. While they live in a universe with cosmically powered beings, they themselves are not.

Coming back to the above quote, I would think that street fighter character could have whatever abilities you wanted since, as you say, he became a god. In my case, his godlike abilities would be an extension of what he is already, so maybe he's gets foresight (the ability to know an opponent's next combative action before they even make it), perhaps he gets very fast (i.e. "The Matrix" agent style fast), or maybe his strength improves to the point where each punch he lands does that much more damage. Any of those abilities could be called godlike in comparison to what he was before *insert power-granting event* happened, but he doesn't end up pulling a giant firestorm out of nowhere, nor is he suddenly casting a healing aura on allies. It is totally possible that he found an ancient stone that gave him healing abilities, but speaking from my design perspective, he wouldn't take that stone because it would not help him to more effectively do what he already does.

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And just to respond to your most recent post: I really like all of those ideas. I think that sort of thing would do wonders for fleshing out concepts. (Why SHOULDN'T a gadgeteer/technopath be able to craft something in the field, wherever he/she may be?) But then I look at it from a development standpoint, and I do not think the ends would justify the means, because the majority of the player base would want "moar powa" and skip QoL of things like that. I am sure once people got their powers, they trial grinders would use their rewards to craft QoL powers like the ones you listed, but my point is that they would be secondary priorities for most, and therefore most likely skipped on many characters.

Because this is a game, and they have to prolong stories. If they were to do something like this, we would only be left with our confrontation with Cole upon completion. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if that happened because I am, frankly, ready to move on from Praetoria. As a business, though, the studio needs to prolong their story lines to keep people coming back to see what happens next.

Yes, it totally makes sense. Yes, I would love to grab a league and confront the Praetors as a group because they would not need to have gimmicks implemented. But for the reasons I listed above, I just do not see that happening.

To be fair, this is standard for a superhero universe. The X-Men, Fantastic Four, Avengers, Justice League, they are all interesting to the majority of readers because one member brings something to the table other than that of their respective teammates (at least not all of them). Yes, powers overlap here and there, and many of them accomplish the same things with different tools (Superman is bulletproof, Flash is fast enough to dodge bullets, Wonder Woman deflects them with her bracers, etc.).

Weaknesses are essential to any video game or story. Without them, the main character could defeat anything that got in their way until there was nothing left to confront them, at which point they become uninteresting and, in the case of video games (or comic books for that matter), unprofitable. Even if one is content to merely be a god among men in a universe where they cannot be challenged, that does not hold true for the majority of the population who would, upon reaching such a height, become bored. Granted, in this game, one can always roll a new character when they get bored, but in rolling a new character, you are creating something that will most likely have at least slightly different strengths and weaknesses than the previous one, which just emphasizes my first point: dealing with a new obstacles is enthralling.

Your examples are sound. Indeed, I feel that the encounter with Hro'Dtohz is as grand as any Incarnate Trial battle, more so in some cases. I did not mean to imply that the "one super-powered bad guy" was the only thing worthy of Incarnate power. Indeed, fighting off entire armies alone is equally as worthy.

And here is the crux. What you just described is a single player game. It is also the reason we have the ability to choose our difficulty: so that you can build your character to be able to go into a mission, alone, and be outnumbered by enemies that are above your level. I have no doubt that Issue 22 will bring some options for Incarnates to do this as well. But in an MMO, where the ability to socialize with a community is a big chunk of the allure, exclusively creating single-character encounters goes against the business model.

If it is a rock thrown by a Praetorian citizen mindwashed by a Telepathist, I'd buy into it.

You presented your own rebuttal to this quote in one of your earlier posts, where you said their strength/gimmicks was due to the sheer number of players involved in the trial. If Marauder (for example) didn't have powers like Nova Fist, or couldn't withstand more than a couple of hits, the players would say that he was too weak and was an unworthy opponent for a league-sized task. (Personally, I don't think Marauder in particular should require a league to defeat anyway, and I think you would agree with me there, but that is off-topic.)

I was defending my earlier suggested approach (maintaining archetype-specific strengths) with this in mind. With the current Incarnate content, there really is nothing special about being in an Incarnate simply because, despite having attained more personal power, that power is diluted by up to 23 other people with the same powers fighting seemingly-ordinary enemies that are somehow strong enough to stand up against that type of force. It is counter-intuitive: Our characters get stronger in their own right, but need more people to handle the content designed for that level of strength. Had the Devs kept some specificity to archetypes in tact with these powers, characters may still feel like they did something better than anyone else, while still needing the league to overcome the obstacles in the trials.

I hope Issue 22 brings a different approach. I would love if they took to heart the last sentence I quoted above, but the current powers do not allow for that. They are based around increasing our own power/resilience, or decreasing our opponent's. We are much more likely to see enemies of increased strength, much the same way as we do on the trials. However, the mere fact that we will be able to tackle them as a single powerful being will do wonders towards making us feel like Incarnates.

An increasingly popular way to run the trial (due to its simplicity and speed) is to completely ignore the telepathists. In doing so, the entire league takes out the buildings faster in Phases 3 and 4, and you end up building Public Opinion faster than it decreases, even with converted citizens and Maelstrom hanging around. So the Telepathists buffs tend to stack here.

I don't think people are annoyed in that respect, since it is logical: If you leave the telepathists, their debuffs wills stack against you. What is annoying is that, even with those debuffs, a few rocks thrown by angry citizens should not be enough to wipe out an Incarnate, even the squishier types.

(Again, snipped for brevity and focus)

Okay, that's clarified for me, thanks for rewording it. (The Indiana Jones analogy actually helped a lot.) I also agree that there's really no place to go but to a level of divinity, and I actually have no problem with that! My problem is the lack of diversity within that level of divinity.

I completely agree with the part that I quoted, except I think the Incarnate system as-is fails to make a character stand out, almost the opposite. It is the trope of "If everyone's special, no one is." A Blaster's T1 Ion Judgement power does the same as a Defender's T1 Ion Judgement power, and that Defender's Destiny power will do the same thing when used by a Blaster. For 50 levels, our characters had something that they were specially built for (based on their archetype). That special something set us apart from other characters. Then we hit 50, seek the Incarnate level of divinity, and everyone can suddenly do the same things as everyone else, to the exact same level of effectiveness. How does that set a character apart from the rest?

At the moment, I can only think of two ways they could have made that a reality: make the powers and/or numbers unique for each archetype (based off their already existing role), or make a metric ton of equally effective powers to avoid having a majority of people with the same abilities. The problem with the latter is obvious: that's more time and effort than is feasible, plausible, or in reality, necessary. While the former option is possible, an argument you presented stands against it: Should not these beings, who have fulfilled an archetypical role for 50 levels already, be allowed to broaden their power horizons?

I suppose it is more a personal preference than anything else. Perhaps it is because I have not (yet) had an opportunity to undertake an Incarnate level challenge as a lone character. Or perhaps it is because I feel like my level 1-50 characters, when compared with their peers, seem more unique than my Incarnate characters (versus their peers). Or perhaps I need to be more patient until more slots are unlocked, thus giving more possibilities. Whatever the reason, I dislike the "one size fits all" nature of the current powers.

To stay on topic, I feel Incarnates should have abilities that enhance what they already have, much like the Alpha Slot and related to some of the things you listed in you OP. Someone who took the Teleport pool should have a Mission Teleport power on a 5 minute timer as an Incarnate Ability. Or a Super Speed character that can access Cimerora from anywhere (so fast they can time travel). Those are only 2 examples and, yes, they are limited to travel powers, but that's the kind of thing I am talking about.

I abbreviated this post due to length, including the parts I feel bear repetition, but consider the whole thing quoted because I agree with all of it. I love single team content, simply because it allows for socialization. Characters are stopping here and there to contribute to conversation, which you cannot do on a trial due to danger and time constraints.

I totally relate to the third section (though, I would argue that Interface is less "whammy" than the other three). I still stick to a rigid concept on all of my characters. If I am taking a Lore power on my Blaster, it is because I need it for the level shift. Those pets may as well not even exist.

(The above is quoted simply as a reference for the following)

For as much as I agree with you, Sam, about the design of our current Incarnate system, I am surprised by how much I disagree with your definition of an Incarnate. I blame that disagreement on your use of the word "demigod" to describe someone who has abilities on par with a god, but who came by those abilities by means other than "divine."

Hercules is possibly the most famous demigod to have existed, made so because of his god-like strength. But in the end, his strength was the only "god-like" thing about him. He could still drown, a lucky arrow could still kill him, and he still needed a ship to get from Greece to Cerce because he had no special means of travel. By that dictionary definition of "demigod," every superhero could be described as a demigod, save for the fact that demigods are typically named so because they are the offspring of one god and one human. What you are describing with this list of qualifications is an actual god, which is fine as long as that's what you are going for. The use of the word "demigod" in this context is incorrect, in that it does not allow for the "demi" prefix to be prevalent.

I quoted McNum's 2 qualifications because I believe they are at the heart of what defines demigods, and superheroes for that matter. That is where the intrigue and danger come into play, the two things that tend to enthrall us as audience and players. Consequently, those two things are now missing from many Incarnate characters. Once a character has crafted T3 and T4 Incarnate abilities, and especially if they have invested in IO sets, their weaknesses and their powers' focus have been diminished (each is inversely proportional to the other). The absence of those two qualifications are the reason the Devs have now resorted to "gimmicks" for the Incarnate content. They can no longer rely on a Blaster to be vulnerable to attacks, on a Tanker to lack the offensive capacity to deal with large groups with any amount of speed, nor on a Corruptor to be wary of certain kinds of mez attacks.

When you remove a demigod's weaknesses, thus also removing a focus on one specific area of strength, the demigod becomes a god. If that's what we're going for, great, but if that is the case there is no need for the "demi" prefix.

I agree with this, and I actually do not think it will be a problem. There is a lot more work to do to fully remove an integrated character (like Statesman) from a video game than there is from a comic book. It is a slim possibility that the Devs would go back and undo all of the changes they are most likely working on currently. While I totally respect the time that goes into creating a comic book, I have a feeling writing a comic about Johnny Storm coming back takes less time (and thus costs less money) than it does to remove and/or reintroduce a character in an MMO universe.

Been a Stooges fan for about as long as I can remember. The above sums up my thoughts exactly.

This holds true for my main.

I also agree with the scenario of, "I might look the other way when Manticore came for Malaise's head."