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I haven't run any numbers, but I'm willing to believe that no Scrapper has the raw DPS to take down Diabolique. I could be wrong.
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I believe Shred Monkey has. I believe it involved vast quantities of large reds and a lot of luck, but I could be misremembering.
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There's a whole lot of room for improvement here.
I'm going to start pretty basic based on the number of posts. If I'm going too basic, I apologize. If you need even more background, let me know.
Let's talk about attacks first. If you're interested in AV soloing, you want to be able to do good damage per second, because AVs regenerate quickly. And to do good damage per second, you want to run a good attack chain, over and over. There are a couple of very high DPS chains that Dual Blades can run, but they're at extreme rates of recharge, and you won't get any other use out of that recharge, so you shouldn't be running those chains. I just mention that they exist for completeness. The best general-purpose attack chain at a much more moderate level of recharge is Blinding Feint -> Attack Vitals Combo. So that's what I'd be shooting for. Here's the full chain with the recharge speeds you need to achieve in each attack:
Blinding Feint (5.28 seconds) -> Ablating Strike (5.54 seconds) -> Vengeful Slice (4.09 seconds) -> Sweeping Strike (5.28 seconds)
To get there, you're going to need more recharge, so you'll be wanting some recharge bonuses, and some good recharge in those attacks, other than Ablating Strike which needs almost none.
If you're going for a PURE AV soloer, you'd stop with only those four attacks. You might stop there anyway, but you could pick up more AoE if you want, particularly if you like teaming. But the more attacks you take, the more likely it'll have a negative impact on survivability, so there are trade offs.
As far as slotting, I mentioned recharge already. Blinding Feint needs special mention - slot it like an attack. It needs to hit to give you the buff, and you want it fully slotted for damage because you'll be using it frequently. And generally speaking, any attack worth having is worth putting six slots in. Not necessarily all from one set, but six slots.
Now let's talk about survivability. This is where most of the build effort should go in my opinion. And the name of the game here is defense. Specifically, typed defense - smashing/lethal, energy/negative and fire/cold. You WANT to get those six types up to 45% defense. Don't bother going higher, but don't settle for lower unless you simply can't figure out how to pull it off (in which case the forum can try to help, because I suspect it will be very very difficult).
The reason you want 45% defense is that almost all enemies have a base 50% to-hit, and defense is subtracted from to-hit, and there's a minimum of 5% chance to hit. So when you're at 45% defense, you've made the enemy chance to hit as low as it can go. More defense won't make it any lower, so isn't protecting you. More DOES help if the enemy has a higher than usual chance to hit, but this is very rare outside of Architect Entertainment. It also helps if you're being defense debuffed, but it's going to be so hard to get to 45% that planning for extra for the occasional defense debuff just isn't going to be worth it, even if it's possible.
You also want defense more than resistance, hit points, or regeneration. Defense, at least 45% defense, simply provides better survivability than your other options. Now of course you don't want to gimp your resistance, hit points or regeneration, but they are not the focus of the build. Just take what you can get.
You'll also need recharge in order to handle that attack chain. Probably not a lot of global recharge, but some, probably at least 40%, which is going to take some build effort as well.
As far as power picks go, I've already mentioned removing the majority of your attacks. I'd also remove Resurgence. You can already tank most things by your own admission, and we're going to send that through the roof. You shouldn't be dying, and if you occasionally do, use a rez or the hospital. You can also CONSIDER skipping Strength of Will. It's nice to have, but it's ONLY a nice to have, not much more impressive than having a few orange inspirations. Only drop it if you need the power pick for something more important, of course.
Add the Fighting pool. Tough stacks nicely with your resistance, and Weave is going to be very important in our quest for defense.
I'd add Leadership as well. Take Maneuvers. I'm a fan of Tactics as well, but it's more optional. Since you have Focused Accuracy, though, I'm going to guess you want to be able to hit. In that case, take Tactics instead of Focused Accuracy, I'd say.
Grab a Steadfast Protection unique and a Kismet unique.
Well, that seems like enough for a first go. -
Quote:Yeah, that's why I frankenslotted my Siphon Life and picked up some recharge. When I'm badly hurt, I want to spam it faster than my normal attack chain. I switch to Siphon Life -> Smite -> Laser Beam Eyes. The chain isn't great for DPS, but the Laser Beam Eyes helps (a tiny bit) to make certain Siphon Life hits, and the chain spams Siphon Life almost as fast as it comes up on my perma Hasten and slotted for recharge build.The only tweak I am considering is more global recharge, not for the attack chain, but for the hybrid one I slip into to spam Siphon Life to recover from a nasty hit.
Mind you, my build is from before Physical Perfection. I'd almost certainly take Physical Perfection instead these days. I'd just lose even more DPS when spamming Siphon Life. -
Quote:OK, while I wouldn't have used the term "questionable" for the achievement, I'm also not happy with everyone going off on Silverado for his input, and I think this is mostly about semantics rather than any disagreement of substance.@Silverado Informing the OP of your thoughts in private would have been a better way to get this across with out hijacking his thread and crapping on his achievement in public.
Anyone think that it's NOT easier fighting Infernal at range? Obviously Garthalus thinks it's easier - that's what makes it an effective tactic for the fight.
And those are the words I'D have used - easier, tactics. This tactic makes the fight easier. Tactics make the fight easier.
Similarly, it's easier using temporary powers and inspirations. And even if you DO use temporary powers and inspirations, I wouldn't call your AV soloing questionable. If it's just you and the AV, then you soloed the AV. I would just say that using temporary powers and inspirations makes the fight easier. Using temporary powers and inspirations is an effective tactic.
Garthalus chose to tie one hand behind his back (no temps, no insps), but not both (no tactics). I, uh... haven't heard a lot of people bragging about their no-tactics fights, with the possible exception of the Rikti War Zone challenge, which disallows certain tactics to make it harder.
So, if you want to make Infernal extra special hard, then by all means, get right up in his face and let him pound on you with his axe. If you just want him to be normal hard, then fool him into using his ranged attacks. If you want him to be even easier, pop some inspirations. It's all good, and all I ask is that you be up front about how you did it, which Garthalus was. Then people can form their own opinions. Like I give Iggy Kamakaze extra special props for doing a Rikti War Zone challenge using only Swipe, but it doesn't mean I think badly of people that actually use more than one attack for it.
I know Silverado feels that the melee range discrepancy and poor AI is in a different category. I believe he's explained in other threads why he considers it an exploit. Basically, you've got a "bug" in the melee range, or a "bug" in the AI. The devs very likely didn't intend it to work that way. If you're taking advantage of a bug, then it follows that it's an exploit. Makes sense, but I still personally just call it tactics. MY argument is that I'm not going to try to second guess what the devs intended, and I'm not going to avoid playing tactically just because the AI is stupid. I'm not going to lower myself to the level of a dumb AI - UNLESS I'm specifically trying to make the fight harder. I don't consider refusing to play stupid to be the same thing as exploiting a dumb AI.
But I think it's a subject where people can reasonably disagree, and again, I think the disagreement is mostly semantics, because both sides agree on the basic facts of the case (5ft vs. 7ft, stupid AI). I also think that Silverado is just encouraging us to be all that we can be. Make it harder. Make it as hard as it can be, and keep trying until you beat it. I can respect that.
Just like I respect Garthalus for kicking the *** of a rather nasty AV, and for choosing a Infernal as his first. -
Quote:If you're not taking Aid Self, then having a lot of regeneration would be nice. Fortunately, that often comes with the +HP bonuses, so it shouldn't be hard to pick up quite a bit. Might consider Physical Perfection for a little bit more if you don't already have it. Nice for the recovery too.Regarding bonuses other than +HP, anything else? Iv'e seen some builds who have a fair amount of regen as well, how does that fair? I'm not going to take aid self simply because I hate it, so I'd like some sort of way to regain lost green.
For a no Aid Self build, I'd probably do my set bonus "hierarchy of needs" like this:
- soft cap defense
- enough recharge for a decent attack chain
- hit points
- regeneration
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Quote:I posted a softcapped Katana/Dark build... sheesh, how long ago WAS it? Well, the first iteration of my build is dated 11/21/2008, so probably around then. That was back when the Gaussian unique wasn't unique, and the build had four sets of it. The build probably sacrificed too much to get to the soft cap, and with some forum input, I settled on a build with ranged and AoE defense around 40%, but much better rounded. And then I played all sorts of other things before finally getting around to leveling my Katana/Dark. By the time I was ready to IO, the Gaussian unique WAS unique, but a lot of other sets had been introduced that increased defense, and it was actually fairly practical to soft cap.I was one of the first to softcap a Sword/Dark, along with Werner...well, one of the first to POST a softcapped Sword/Dark build anyway, I'm sure some unknown build wizard beat us both to it
. Unfortunately, the Blessing of the Zephyr nerf killed my softcap, and I haven't gotten around to seeing if it can still be done.
Yeah, I haven't tried to soft cap again since the BotZ nerf. Honestly I've barely played Alexei since then, but did some over the weekend. I'd like to get him back to the soft cap. I'm sure it's still doable. I'll just have to sacrifice some things elsewhere.
Edit: And yeah, given that it was possible back in 2008, I suspect some unknown person beat us both to the punch as far as actually making one. -
Very tight builds on very rich characters might go for two L53 Enzymes, assuming that the debuffs all still function as buffs in a buffing power.
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They seem likely to nerf Shield Charge (they've said that it's doing somewhat more damage than intended, and have stated what was intended). They also seem likely to do little else to the set. But I've been very wrong before about what I expect the devs to do.
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Super Reflexes is an excellent secondary. It has been somewhat eclipsed by Shield Defense, but it can hit the soft cap more easily, so it's still a good choice, particularly on a budget. It's also a self-sufficient secondary, at least as long as you're willing to use inspirations. Some secondaries I'd be afraid to touch without a primary that brought a lot of damage mitigation to the table (Fire Armor, for instance). Super Reflexes doesn't need help from the primary. It IS a bit of a late bloomer, where having a low amount of defense, as you will for a while, is almost as bad as having no defense. I think it becomes reasonably-solid in the mid to late 20s, but it may be until the mid 30s before you start feeling like it's doing its job. It's all gravy from there, though, assuming you keep focusing on powers that add defense.
Nothing wrong with Regeneration either. It's easy mode for just normal play at normal difficulty settings, but it can be tricky to play at the edge of the envelope. And even once you've mastered it, I'd say you'll only have equivalent survivability to other sets. You don't really get rewarded with better survivability. The reward, if you consider it one, is in mastering it, in surviving against the odds when you've managed to do everything right, and how good that can feel. Would you prefer to cruise down the interstate in the back seat of a limo? Or do you want to be on a motorcycle, blasting through traffic at twice the speed limit, flirting with disaster with every move you make? Regeneration is that wild motorcycle ride. And Regeneration will never let you down. The vast majority of your deaths won't be because you ran out of click powers. They'll be because you clicked the wrong one for the situation, or weren't fast enough, or anticipated the incoming damage incorrectly, or you used one that you didn't need so didn't have it when you really needed it. There's almost always something you could have done to have survived, if only you were smarter, better, faster. And I like a set that encourages me to be smarter, better and faster.
Now, Regeneration IS a set where I'd want good mitigation from my primary, like Katana or Broad Sword. But plenty of people play it successfully with less-mitigating primaries. My hat's off to them, because that skeers me. -
Quote:Well, having both isn't desirable for me because I'm trying to achieve the highest possible single-target damage output (given other concerns). To do that, I'm a big believer in using an optimized attack chain. For my Broad Sword Scrappers, I'm running what I believe to be the highest DPS two-Parry chain, Head Splitter -> Parry -> Disembowel -> Hack -> Parry. And I pretty much just hit those attacks, over and over, almost no matter what the fight. Even if I could get a fully-slotted Slash as a bonus power or something, since it contributes so much less damage per second than anything in that chain but Parry (and even then, it's only slightly better than Parry), I simply can't USE Slash without doing one of two things - reducing my damage output or reducing my defense. Well, I certainly don't want to do either of those things, so I simply wouldn't use Slash, even if, as I said, it was free. And it isn't free, of course. To take Slash, I'd have to drop some other power. And I'm usually hurting for power picks when I'm putting together builds, because there are so many tasty powers to choose from. So taking Slash would only be detrimental for me.The way I play, both would be relavent for me.If its not for you, then maybe I could understand as to why that is?
But as I hinted earlier, this is all mostly irrelevant through the early levels, when you may be short on attacks, and particularly don't have Head Splitter or Disembowel yet. That's when I would consider Slash as a passable filler attack. -
Quote:Oh, I'm retarded.I think he was referring to the Chance for Heal proc. I recall there being a discussion about it before and, numerically, it is an almost insignificant amount of healing and that you're better off slotting a damage proc.
Heh. Yeah, 10% chance for 5% heal doesn't look worth it on the surface.
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I think the way you deal with the binay nature of Super Reflexes is to pick up Tough and a lot of hit points. A heal helps, of course, but unless you're doing no-inspiration stuff, I'd think that greens would cover it most of the time. I do think Dark Melee is perfect with Super Reflexes due to the self heal in the attack chain, but lots of things work well with Super Reflexes. Still, no matter how much you buff it, your hit points can still move rapidly when you do get hit. You need to be more on your toes than you do with some secondaries.
As for mobs chopping away at your defense, a well-built Super Reflexes should have 95% defense debuff resistance, so that's just never been a serious issue for me. But yeah, mobs with to-hit can be nasty. Fortunately, outside of Architect Entertainment, there are VERY few of those. Stay away from Overseers. But that pretty much goes for everyone.
As for the original question, I wouldn't slot an attack for sleep, and you can get hit point and recharge bonuses in better ways. -
Quote:I'm not sure why people are jumping down your throat, perhaps because I'm horrible with names and spend most of my time on one forum, but you ARE wrong. But I suppose it's kind of pointless saying that without explaining why, particularly for other people who might happen onto this thread with the exact same question.Your just here to try to take a snipe because you didnt get your hug today...move along baldy.
In this case, the original poster mentioned "Hecatomb and Achilles Heel". So we're talking about a level 50 build IO'd to the hilt. In such a build, any use of Slash is going to do nothing but reduce your damage output. And taking the power means you don't get to take some other power that might actually benefit your build.
I might take Slash while leveling up, but if I did, I would respec out of it in my mid 30s, which is when I normally do a respec into my final attack chain. Again, at that point, Slash would have no place in my build, or any decently-optimized build.
Now, if you LIKE the Slash animation, say, that's fine. Or if you just like collecting all the attacks for the fun of it, that's fine. You can certainly play the game however you want. Fun is extremely subjective. But when the question is about optimization, which this one certainly appears to be, you do not want to take Slash. -
Quote:You would. But gimping your attack chain with a terrible attack in order to get a very slight increase in the frequency of a minor damage buff isn't going to be worth it.Hmm, just seems like I'd get more out of the -resist proc in a faster recharging/activating power.
Edit: Wait, what am I saying, Slash has the same activation time as Hack, so it won't help with the proc at all. Yeah, it recharges faster, but that shouldn't be a serious build problem to overcome in an IO build. You should be activation time limited, not recharge time limited.
Edit 2: Assuming you want a dual-Parry chain, you'll want Head Splitter -> Parry -> Disembowel -> Hack -> Parry. To fit in that chain, Hack only needs +5% recharge. So activation time is the same, and recharge is a complete non-issue. -
Katana isn't Broad Sword, and the powers, even though similar and in the same order, are not the same powers. Take Hack. Hack has a DPA of 71 vs. only 43 from Slash. It's very much the better power.
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DM/SR should be OK, though I don't think it's particularly good, as on just SOs you're probably not going to soft cap it. That's where Katana/SR beats it because of Divine Avalanche. Still, even 32.5% is pretty good since a single purple puts you at the soft cap, so you can have a tray full of god mode. And you have Siphon Life for the heal. It won't suck.
I haven't done the math, but I'd probably do Dark Melee/Super Reflexes on a Scrapper. Soul Drain can be a big buff that's up a lot of the time, and Scrappers get more out of damage buffs than Brutes. But I just like scrappers, so maybe I'm the wrong person to ask.
Normally, I'd recommend Katana/Willpower, but you already have Katana and you already have Willpower, and you might not want to repeat. But you said you rolled them recently, so maybe that isn't a factor. And to reduce the overlap, maybe Broad Sword/Willpower, which will play pretty much the same.
I really enjoyed leveling my Broad Sword/Shield Defense. It was probably my favorite combination to level, and I only use a handful of IOs while leveling. Shield Defense has a reputation for being squishy on just SOs, but I personally think the reputation is largely undeserved, plus Broad Sword will let you cap your melee defense easily, and your lethal defense as well with a bit more of a stretch. Shield Defense then buffs your damage and gives you a big AoE, so you'll power through content pretty well. -
Quote:Well, we've been TRYING to address your "facts":Care to address the fact that brutes do 3 percent more damage (average) and yet still have significantly more hitpoints and much higher defense caps?
Quote:"numerically superior" is very dependent on the situations you commonly find yourself in.Quote:It's specific chains, specific level of recharge, specific slotting, specific assumptions about generated fury, and so on. Even if the assumptions are reasonable, we're only looking at a handful of data points, and only on a single statistic, DPS, which isn't even particularly representative of damage output except in weird edge cases.Quote:For all of the huffing and puffing about DPS comparisons, I'd say most players never even come close to building and maintaining a level of play to get to that elusive top end.
And even when you do, if you team, there will be situations that hinder Fury.Quote:Yesterday it was 94 degrees. Today, it was only 86 degrees. So global warming is a myth. Numbers don't lie.Quote:Sure, there's an attack chain that tops the Scrapper equivalent. That's one combination. The declaration "Brute Damage > Scrapper Damage" based on that one data point is disingenuous at best. It does not hold across all powerset comparisons.Quote:all those best damage strings being talking about in Billz thread are great for discussion. But in the end, 99% of people won't be using those attack strings.Quote:It's pretty easy to just look at the mechanics of fury and criticals to see given the same attack, somewhere around 70% fury the brute and scrapper damage is equal. Prior to that the scrapper does more damage, higher then the brute does more damage... sometimes Brutes outdamage scrappers...sometimes scrappers outdamage brutes.
The numbers you are looking at are just a few specific data points. DPS for specific builds running specific chains with specific slotting at a specific level of recharge and a specific amount of fury.
All of those things that are specific in the analysis can be changed. What If I'd made the assumption that most Brutes averaged 60% Fury instead of 75%? Suddenly the Brutes look terrible. Nothing's changed. I've just looked at a few DIFFERENT data points. What if I think I can maintain 80% fury on average with my go-go-go play style? Brutes look even MORE attractive.
What if instead of picking a standard slotting for the builds, I choose very specific slotting of each power for that particular build? Perhaps what I'd consider an optimal slotting for a live build that has concerns other than DPS? Things change again. Some builds get better, some builds get worse, the comparison changes one way or the other.
What if instead of using DPS as our measurement of damage output, I take the trouble to try to come up with something more representative of normal play? For instance, burst damage is going to weigh in heavily on teams, because the team will quickly destroy the targets. So I could measure the damage output that each build can do in some shorter window of time, such as 10 seconds. Suddenly everyone with build up powers will be looking better than before. And what about AoE? Surely we'll be using AoEs while we mission, and it would be negligent to leave out that measurement of damage. So we include AoEs in some way. All the numbers change again.
This is a gigantic, multi-dimensional data set. You've looked at a handful of data points, and somehow concluded not only that the trend seen in those few points applies across the entire data set, but you almost seem to be asserting that the data set doesn't exist. That somehow, the ONLY points of interest are the few that someone conveniently calculated for you in a stickied thread.
Those really aren't the only points of interest. There's really almost zero reason to believe that those few data points are representative of the game as a whole. In a statistical sense, perhaps the difference in damage output was measured at 3%, but your margin of error is huge, perhaps 50%. And I don't mean margin of error in the sense that Bill's numbers are wrong. I mean it in the sense that there is no good reason to think that they represent the average or achievable performance of Scrappers and Brutes as they are actually played in the game. The data, however interesting, is almost statistically irrelevant.
Now, given all that, the reason I made my 94 vs. 86 degrees comment is that it's essentially the same situation. Global temperature trends are a gigantic, multi-dimensional data set. To simply look at a couple of points in that data set and believe you can conclude anything about the data set as a whole is simply incorrect. You cannot assert anything about the data set as a whole from two simple measurements. Similarly, you cannot assert much of anything about Brute vs. Scrapper damage output from looking at the data Bill put together, except in regard to THOSE specific builds in THOSE specific circumstances.
So we're not trying to explain the "fact" of a 3% difference in damage. We're trying to explain that it isn't a fact at all. The fact, if there is one, is that average of the Brutes Bill chose, with the slotting he chose, and the level of recharge he chose, and the level of fury he chose, do 3% more DPS than the Scrappers in the same circumstances. This doesn't address damage as a whole, only DPS. It doesn't address various levels of fury. It doesn't address the way people actually build as opposed to this specific hypothetical. It doesn't address how teams interact. It doesn't address people slotting in any way other than a given "standard". All of these factors, as I've said, will change that percentage, swinging it wildly to and fro. The 3% means so close to nothing that it might as well be nothing.
Was that helpful? Or am I still not explaining it well? -
That's how I do it in my low-recharge high-defense build. It's better if you can get enough recharge to make Dull Pain permanent, but rotating them works pretty well if you can't or don't pull that off.
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I'm kind of afraid to offer any advice. You say you don't want a cookie cutter build, and in a way that makes me worry that if we give you any good advice, you'll go off about how that isn't what you want, and how you clearly stated in your post that it wasn't what you want. But at the same time, you want to be able to amaze teams. Well, you're not going to amaze any teams. You have the survivability of a blaster with the damage output of a tanker. I don't THINK that was your intent, even if you want a concept build. So, I'm going to go ahead and risk it.
- If you do nothing else, at least get some accuracy and damage into your attacks.
- Hack is one of your best attacks, or would be if it had any slotting.
- Please slot Moment of Glory for recharge instead of endurance recovery.
- Why even take Slash? As slotted, you'll never use it, or shouldn't.
- As already said, Parry needs accuracy to get any benefit out of the defense. It also needs damage to keep from lowering your horrible damage output even further. Your lack of defense in the build as a whole may mean you need to slot SOME defense it it, but don't go overboard.
- Is the Stealth pool for concept? Or do you figure you'll be phase shifting a lot to try to stay alive?
- Resilience really doesn't need to be slotted up. If you care about resistance, pick up Tough.
- Please don't waste a Panacea proc on this build.
- The consensus is that melt armor is totally not worth it. If you want to do more damage, slot some damage in your attacks. If you want to hit better, slot some accuracy in your attacks.
- If you have the accolades, most of your hit point bonuses are useless when Dull Pain is up because of the hit point cap, and I suspect you'll be making frequent use of Dull Pain. It's not permanent, so the hit points will help when it's down, but that's likely only a small portion of the time. I know it's what cookie cutter Regens do, but consider chasing recharge or defense instead of hit points.
The revised build is a little better, I suppose. At least Head Splitter and Whirling Sword have some accuracy now. They still don't do any damage, though. -
I wouldn't do it. One or the other will do a good job of locking down minions. Not perfect, but good. And yes, admittedly, both together will do an even better job than either separately. But if you started with Oppressive Gloom, then it's probably not going to be worth the endurance to also pick up Cloak of Fear. If you started with Cloak of Fear, it's probably not going to be worth the self-damage to pick up Oppressive Gloom. I've not tried it, though.
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Quote:I'm with you. It's specific chains, specific level of recharge, specific slotting, specific assumptions about generated fury, and so on. Even if the assumptions are reasonable, we're only looking at a handful of data points, and only on a single statistic, DPS, which isn't even particularly representative of damage output except in weird edge cases. Yet people continue to ascribe shocking amounts of meaning to those few data points.I don't regret the post. I regret how some people bastardize the data to suit their purposes.
The data is sound. How people interpret the data is often inept.
I'm so, so sorry Arcanaville.
I'm going to throw in my vote for probability and statistics as a required high school course. Might help. Might not. But at least it's more useful for most people in day to day life than, say, calculus.