Werner

I wouldn't necessarily detect minor recharge issues. See, I'm quite aware that our model could be a bit off, so I always try to target a little more recharge than I theoretically need. I just want to be safe. Also, none of my mains are relying on a power like Follow Up to significantly boost damage through stacking, so if there's an extra twentieth of a second delay, unless I get the not ready noise, I'll probably never know. I'll be off by a couple DPS, but that will be drowned in the significant variation of pylon run to pylon run.

An extra tick of delay, yeah, I think someone would have noticed by now. But a small fraction of one, or something "random" that would feel like an occasional glitch? Perhaps it could have slipped by unnoticed.

Actually, I think I can answer fairly conclusively about a full extra tick. There isn't one, or at least it isn't that simple. On my latest project, Fire Sword Circle recharges in exactly 5.63 seconds according to Mids'. It has to recharge in 5.676 seconds according to our standard model. So I'm meeting the required recharge by only 0.046 seconds. No recharging sound.

Actually, let me calculate it myself since 5.63 doesn't have quite enough precision. Base recharge is 20, 92.75% enhancement in the power pre-ED, so with ED it should be exactly 88%+(0.7%*(92.75%-90)) = 89.925%, which is consistent with the 89.92% reported by Mids'. Plus 165% global and 100% base, so 354.925% recharge. So the attack should recharge in exactly 5.6349933... so 5.6435 seconds. So I'm meeting the required recharge by only 0.0410 seconds. That's much closer than I like to cut it, but I had an easy fix if there were problems, so I was willing to take the risk this time.

I suppose 41 ms is comfortably over the 20-30 ms jitter. And maybe "jitter" is a nice, no-technical term for why Bill sometimes got the not ready sound, and sometimes didn't. I'd like a more technical explanation, but I'll take what I can get.

It's also been months since I've tested a DPS prediction against reality, and the last time I did it, I was off by about 15 DPS (in my favor, fortunately). I wasn't able to explain it, didn't do further testing, and then eventually stopped worrying about it and simply enjoyed playing the character with his unexpected damage potential. DPS predictions for my other two mains were right on target, though, or perhaps I should say seemingly within sampling error after multiple pylon runs. I haven't made a DPS prediction for my latest endeavor, and it's not quite complete and ready for pylon testing.

Edit: Or maybe I'm retarded. I've mostly been regular missioning while I fill in his build. He doesn't really get to run a full chain during missions - too busy hitting AoEs. I'm running the Praetorian arc now, which gives me a chance to run my chain on the elite bosses (this build is not AV quality). And I just noticed the not ready sound twice in a row. And I've got full recharge now, so everything should be fine. Hmmm, just faught Marauder, and 6/6 chains had no problem. OH! I bet Dominatrix has recharge debuffs. Anyone know for sure? Her powers appear to be missing from paragonwiki.

Most of these differences have already been quantified. What hasn't been quantified is what happens if the attack cycles again in less than ten seconds. Since the debuffs don't stack, the second attack gives you less average damage. Doubling your attack rate from once every ten seconds to once every five seconds doesn't double the average damage contribution of the debuff; it takes you from +3.8% to +6.878% (vs. +7.6%). A damage proc doubles. And while we're on the subject of not stacking, my understanding is that the debuffs don't even stack from Achilles' Heels being used by your teammates, so two teammates using Achilles' Heels will similarly not quite double the damage contribution of the debuff procs. Straight damage from damage procs, of course, does "stack", so doubles normally. Another minor point in favor of straight damage procs.

The more damage done, the more likely an attack is saved. Already covered.

Unlikely. Which is why I already made the same point.

The Achilles' Heel proc. Visible in the damage comparison. Hopefully also clear in my initial summary, "Some exceptions for large team boss farming and the like."

Yes, the sooner the better. A point slightly in favor of straight damage over a debuff if the net damage done is equal. Actual damage now > probable damage later.

Yes.

EVERYTHING should be affected by the -resistance. It doesn't matter what the source of the damage is unless they've added some weird flags to it. That seems highly unlikely. It should just be straight -resistance.

OMG WTF BBQ? Do I need to get back to work on leveling my DPS tank? Why am I playing all these stupid Scrappers? If you need me, I'll be on the Tanker forum!

(Seriously, that's pretty awesome. That's what I get for not paying attention to game changes, particularly for other ATs.)

I'm not saying it's bad that your AoE does damage. Obviously its best if your AoE does an infinite amount of damage and wipes out the entire spawn instantly. But if it DOES, then slotting the AH proc (or any proc) is completely useless.

If your AoE does infinite damage, the AH proc is completely useless. Everything is already dead.

If your AoE does 1000 points of damage, the AH proc is useless on minions and lieutenants. They're already dead.

If your AoE does 500 points of damage, the AH proc is useless on minions. They're already dead.

If your AoE does 0 points of damage, the AH proc is useful even on minions. It'll be a good buff to follow up attacks.

Again, obviously the more damage your AoE does, the faster you'll move through the spawn, in direct opposition to the sequence above. But the more damage your AoE does, the more likely it is that a regular or purple proc will move you EVEN FASTER through the spawn than the Achilles' Heel.

The reason I'm arguing for damage done attributable to the proc is that damage done is time saved. We're choosing between slotting an Achilles' Heel and a damage proc. We're choosing between time saved by an Achilles' Heel and a damage proc, attributable to the proc alone. We're choosing between damage done by an Achilles' Heel and a damage proc, attributable to the proc alone. Because we're comparing procs.

Well, basically, it's a poor build and would probably cost 6-7 billion. Granted, some marketeers pull in a couple billion per week, so that's not necessarily a stumbling block, but it's sure not just a billion or two. However, someone with a decent cheapo build would be more survivable AND probably put out better damage, so all that influence is being spent for nought.

I'll assume high budget, and go over some of the basics:

• Attack Chain: Golden Dragonfly (+250% recharge, 3.43 seconds) -> Gambler's Cut (+90% recharge, 1.58 seconds) -> Soaring Dragon (+135% recharge, 3.83 seconds) -> Gambler's Cut
• Defense: Melee, ranged and AoE at 45% to 47% (definitely not lower, and mostly useless going higher)
• Only use Divine Avalanche while leveling. Then drop it. It has almost no place in an end game build.
• Achilles' Heel in Gambler's Cut

AV soloing no temps no insps has additional "requirements":

• Aid Self OR Physical Perfection and a huge amount of regeneration
• Sustainable endurance - rough guess, but probably endurance reducers instead of recharge in Soaring Dragon and Golden Dragonfly, plus over 4 EPS recovery

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of things. Just thought I'd cover very basic basics to start with.

Yeah, endgame endurance is typically resolved by throwing tons of influence at the problem, plus sets often have decent endurance reduction. In fact, I've recently started hording Performance Shifter procs and Numina and Miracle uniques. That way, even when I'm too lazy to frankenslot, I can just pop in a few IOs to deal with the problem, at least temporarily.

My general strategy (up until the hording of expensive IOs for use on leveling characters) looked like this:

• 1-19: slot nothing but accuracy and endurance reduction in attacks
• 20-33: get by with Stamina and whatever endurance slotting is necessary, pick up the Atlas Medallion when convenient
• 34-49: respec into final attack chain, frankenslot to meet needs of attack chain and reduce endurance, pick up Portal Jockey
• 50: sets and expensive IOs if I like the character enough, else retire

Either I'm completely missing your point, or you're completely missing mine. So I'll try again taking a slightly different approach.

You and your full team encounter a full spawn with 2 bosses, 3 lieutenants and 5 minions. You get to the team first and launch your AoE, which does no damage of its own other than the proc. You and the team then wipe out the entire spawn in the next 10 seconds. This situation is the best possible scenario for the debuff compared to straight damage procs. Taking the average of the procs across many such spawns.

Achilles' Heel: 86 * 2 bosses + 27 * 2 lieutenants + 14 x 5 minions = 296 damage
Damage Proc: 14 * 10 mobs = 140 damage
Purple Proc: 35 * 10 mobs = 350 damage

That's your ideal. Now maybe this is what you mean when you say that looking at max damage (I assume you meant damage instead of usage) isn't the ideal. I would argue here that even though the purple proc does more overall damage, the Achilles' Heel is more useful, because it preferentially targets the bosses for additional damage. If bosses are what typically survive the longest in large spawns on large teams (as I assume to be the case), then this preferential damage will speed things up slightly on average. So I would argue here that the Achilles' Heel is better than the purple proc for this situation.

But this situation was an ideal situation. The first obvious deviation from this ideal is that your own AoE attack does damage. Just to have a number, I'm going to use my The Lotus Drops from my Katana/Dark. Looks like it does 277 damage under Build Up. That seems reasonable to use. Now everyone has fewer hit points for the proc to help with. Now it looks like this:

Achilles' Heel: 76 * 2 bosses + 18 * 2 lieutenants + 4 * 5 minions = 208 damage

Looking worse. Damage on bosses is still good, so maybe it's still better than a purple proc. But getting more realistic, hopefully the tank is leading the charge, and is probably using AoE to help get control of the situation. And others are probably itching to do damage as well, so you aren't likely first AoE every time. So on average, they'll have taken somewhat more than that 277 damage before your debuff kicks in. Let's say they've taken 600 points of damage - the minions are all dead, and the lieutenants are hurting.

Achilles' Heel: 66 * 2 bosses + 7 * 2 lieutenants = 146 damage

But maybe you're not fighting +0. Maybe you're fighting +2. Do normal teams carve through a +2 spawn with bosses in ten seconds? Eh, let's say they do. Your 600 points of damage is now only 480 points, and the other procs are at reduced damage:

Achilles' Heel: 70 * 2 bosses + 11 * 2 lieutenants = 162 damage
Damage Proc: 11 * 10 mobs = 110 damage
Purple Proc: 28 * 10 mobs = 280 damage

And so it goes. My general observation would be that the purple proc usually simply does more damage. A further advantage of this is that the damage is all up front, so is more useful for mitigation through such things as finishing off minions or lieutenants more quickly while you pound on the bosses. But the Achilles' Heel is useful for its preferential targeting of bosses for additional damage during the course of the fight. This is less useful up front, in mitigation, and does less damage overall. But if you can take the bosses out that much faster, you should be able to finish the fight that much faster, as bosses probably tend to last the longest.

Coming clean, my Fire/Shield has a Fury of the Gladiator proc in Fire Sword Circle. Why? Well, mainly because he already has the purple proc. But I'm also banking on the preferential damaging of bosses to hopefully speed my progress through spawns solo. And because the toon has serious AoE, so is more likely to get at least SOME damage from the proc on things other than his primary target (bosses). And because Fire Sword Circle is part of his "single" target attack chain.

Now, having covered all that, I perhaps still simply don't get what you're trying to say, but I'll try. I think you're trying to say that the average damage done, and when it is done, isn't what is most relevant. What is most relevant is how likely the proc is to save time/attacks/endurance.

You are correct! But that doesn't make the Achilles' Heel any better compared to its rivals. Ignoring WHEN the damage is done, the chance of some damage saving an attack (and thus time and endurance) down the line is basically a direct correlation with the damage done. This is all about the law of averages. Even ONE more point of damage might (though it's very unlikely) save an attack. Your AoE does 277 damage. Your teammate's AoE does 152 points of damage. The minion has 1 hit point left. A proc that does one hit point of damage may save an attack. How likely is this scenario? Not likely, but only because it's a single hit point. A proc that does 107.1 hit points, though, is MUCH more likely to save an attack. I'd say 107.1 times as likely on average as a first pass.

Now that's just minions. The Achilles' Heel is significantly more likely to save an attack on a boss if it fires, but that is already reflected in my numbers, in the way that I calculate significantly more damage for the Achilles' Heel on bosses than on minions.

Now what about the idea of damage NOW instead of damage in the form of a buff? Damage NOW is more likely to save an attack. The trivial case of this is when damage now finishes off the enemy. A buff would require hitting the enemy again. What about our boss situation, first part of the fight? Damage now will hardly make a dent. But so that we're comparing apples to apples, let's say the damage proc does 300 damage now as opposed to 300 damage in the form of buffs to later attacks. Well, damage now is damage in the bank. It applies even if the boss runs off around a corner. It applies even if the team doesn't finish the boss off in the next ten seconds. It may not be MUCH more likely to save an attack, but it is MORE likely, as long as the average damage (as I calculated above) is equal. Now, the average damage of an Achilles' Heel on a boss actually dwarfs the average damage of regular or purple procs. But THAT is the reason it is better on bosses, not some advantage to delaying damage. And that damage difference is already accounted for in everything I've calculated.

Jesus why did I write all that?

Careful frankenslotting of your attacks. Seriously, frankenslotting resolves SO many problems.

OK, we can look at it in those terms. Regular damage procs in AoEs usually do more damage, and do it now. Resist debuff procs usually do less damage, and do it later. More damage now saves more time/attacks/endurance than less damage later.