Another Damage Proc Vs. Another Achilles -Resist
Depends on how long you anticipate something living to take your attacks.
The -Resist Proc can only be applied once (ie. overwrite, no stacking) onto targets, so you can forget any notions of getting a -Resist Debuff cascade going. Furthermore, because of the way it (has to be) coded, the Resistance Debuff effectively "ignores" the purple patch aspect of the game ... so it always applies its Debuff value regardless of the +/- to your level. This makes the Debuff more valuable against targets which are higher level than you (see: Mothership Raids) and less valuable against targets which are lower level than you (see: Atlas Park).
Resistance Debuffs are inherently team friendlier than damage buffs to yourself (only), since they help everyone and not just you (see: Tanker, Bruising). Damage Procs are more "immediate" in that there's pretty much no delay between them proccing and seeing any results/benefits. For "impatient people" that sense of "immediacy" with Damage Procs is too compelling to ignore. The -Resist Proc however will persist over time, thus lending itself more of a DoT-ish type return on investment, which may not be anywhere near as immediate (or obvious).
As for which is "better" for your playstyle ... only you can answer that.
For single target attacks, it's best to put the Resist Debuff Proc into a FAST single target attack which you cycle frequently in your attack chain, which is often either a Tier 1 or 2 attack in a powerset. For cone/AoE attacks, it's best to put the Resist Debuff Proc into as many attack powers as you can afford so as to give yourself the maximum number of opportunities to proc on as many targets as possible ... and keep the Resist Debuff going, making it more "reliable" in application (and thus, throughput).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
The Achilles Heel proc stacks with the Fury of the Gladiator -Resist proc. I believe the bonus is multiplicative as well so grabbing both seems worth it.
I always put the achilles heel proc in attacks like gamblers cut, slash, and ablating strike because the -res will apply on the second portion of the attack which serves as a nice indicator when it fires.
Generally speaking, use them in your single-target chain until you're up to about 4 or 5 every ten seconds. Generally speaking, don't use them in AoEs unless they're part of your single-target chain. Some exceptions for large team boss farming and the like.
Here's my current writeup for the Achilles' Heel or Fury of the Gladiator procs in AoEs, which is obviously in need of editing:
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Lets say you're surrounded by five even level minions and you use a PBAoE with an Achilles' Heel proc in it. With a 20% chance of firing, on average it will hit one of those minions. Achilles' Heel is basically a buff attacks on that minion over the next ten seconds will do 20% more damage. So we can consider that additional damage to be the damage that the proc does. A level 50 minion has 430 hit points. Let's say that the attack with the proc did 190 hit points of damage, leaving the minion with 240 hit points. And lets say that you DO manage to kill the minion in the next ten seconds. The 240 hit points of damage required to kill the minion can be considered to be 200 base hit points of damage, plus 40 hit points of damage from the proc. So what's the MAXIMUM damage that the proc can do? It would be in an AoE that does NO damage itself, so that the minion still has all 430 hit points of damage. And then you'd need to finish off the minion in the next 10 seconds, which pretty much means finishing off the whole crowd in 10 seconds since I don't think there's a way to identify who got hit with the proc, or at least not to do it quickly. You would then attack the minion for exactly 359 points of damage, and the proc would do the other 359 * 20% = 71 points of damage. So the proc does 71 damage to an even level minion under nearly IDEAL circumstances your AoE does no damage at all, and you finish off the crowd in the next 10 seconds. What about a regular damage proc? That's a lot simpler. 20% chance of doing 71.8 damage. So when fighting minions, even under nearly ideal circumstances, the Achilles' Heel proc basically only pulls even with a regular old damage proc. In practice, it'll be way behind. What about lieutenants? Well, you won't be surrounded by just five lieutenants and nothing else, and good luck finishing five lieutenants off in 10 seconds except with an AoE monster, but sure, let's say that everything comes together just perfectly. A level 50 lieutenant has 805 hit points. So you're doing 671 damage, and the proc does 671 * 20% = 134 damage to finish off the lieutenant. Then yes, under these even more ideal circumstances, the Achilles' Heel proc will do somewhat more damage than a regular old damage proc. But taking into account that not everyone's level 50, that you won't often find yourself in this situation, that your AoE actually does damage, and that sometimes you won't finish off the guy that got hit with the proc in the next 10 seconds, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily better in practice. I'd probably still recommend a regular damage proc as being more likely to do more damage on average, and to do it sooner since it takes effect on that attack rather than on potential future attacks. But even if we take the 20% chance of 134 damage at face value, what about a purple proc? That's a 33% chance of 107.1 damage = 35.343 damage on average, compared to our 20% * 134 = 26.8 damage on average. So the purple proc is still significantly better than Achilles' Heel against lieutenants even under near ideal circumstances. So we pretty much need to get up to boss level before the Achilles' Heel starts to really beat out the alternatives. And while you might be using AoEs on a boss farm, you're not going to be finishing off that crowd of bosses in 10 seconds unless you're on a big AoE team. So I suppose I could add a qualifier of unless you're AE boss farming on a big AoE team to my advice to skip Achilles' Heel procs on AoEs, but that's seems unnecessary, that being such an exceptional circumstance. So the basic use of Achilles' Heel procs is for taking down single hard targets. It's a single target because you don't usually find or take out multiple hard targets fast enough (with some exceptions on some teams). And its a hard target like a boss or above because only those have enough hit points for the damage from the Achilles' Heel to add up. Now, I DO see some logic in putting it in AoEs for another situation attacking the boss, but using an AoE because there are other enemies around. The primary target is the boss, so it's pretty much like putting it in a single target attack at that point, which is to say that it is worthwhile. However, what percentage of time do you use your AoEs that way specifically, and what percentage of time do you use them on targets other than bosses? Generally speaking, I think AoEs are largely used as minion munchers. As such, the Achilles' Heel procs are usually going to be outclassed by other options, often significantly outclassed. REVISION: If the AoE has a regular damage proc, it is all but guaranteed to do full damage, because most AoEs don't do enough damage to kill the minions in that one hit, even when the proc hits. You could always be finishing off something with an AoE, I suppose, in which case a regular proc wouldn't hit for full damage. But if you're finishing off something with AoE, the Achilles' Heel DEFINITELY isn't helping, since it just sets you up for future damage. So we're talking about that initial hit. With an Achilles' Heel, some of the extra damage buff will almost always be wasted on blowthrough damage. In other words, you're not going to do exactly 359 damage, and the proc does the other 71. You're just as likely to have your last attack do blowthrough damage, in which case the proc also isn't contributing as much., REVISION: For the AoE attack on bosses, not particularly useful because your single target chain should have a bunch of Achilles' Heels, and stacking makes each additional one less useful. Depends on primary, of course. |
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"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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With any last attack, proc or no, some damage will be wasted on blowthrough damage. It might be a fraction of a point or it might be everything other than a fraction of a point. You might hit all your procs and not have needed any. It's just part of the game and the AH proc is no more or less subject to it than anything else. Just as AH can fire on one lone minion in a group, so can a damage proc, and both will be equally useless against any boss in that same group.
The AH proc really shines in two circumstances: tough single targets & teaming. The benefits against tough targets have been covered. I'd argue that they're useful in both ST attacks and AOEs on teams. When teaming, the AH proc can provide that little bit of extra damage (okay, 20% is more than a little bit) that means one less attack required to take down an opponent. Whether the team is relying on AOEs, as most will, or using single-target attacks, reducing the number of attacks required to take down a target is a good thing. Reducing the number of attacks required to take down multiple opponents is a great thing, whether those opponents are minions or bosses. It won't always work out that way, but it will sometimes and it'll be worth it at those times.
For that reason, I would argue that looking at any proc, damage or AH, in terms of maximum usage isn't the ideal. Instead, look at them in terms of time/attacks/endurance saved.
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OK, we can look at it in those terms. Regular damage procs in AoEs usually do more damage, and do it now. Resist debuff procs usually do less damage, and do it later. More damage now saves more time/attacks/endurance than less damage later.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
Reducing the number of attacks required to take down multiple opponents is a great thing, whether those opponents are minions or bosses. It won't always work out that way, but it will sometimes and it'll be worth it at those times.
For that reason, I would argue that looking at any proc, damage or AH, in terms of maximum usage isn't the ideal. Instead, look at them in terms of time/attacks/endurance saved. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Hence why I prefaced everything I said with ...|
Originally Posted by streetlight
For that reason, I would argue that looking at any proc, damage or AH, in terms of maximum usage isn't the ideal. Instead, look at them in terms of time/attacks/endurance saved.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Depends on how long you anticipate something living to take your attacks.
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The situation changes when talking about targets you'll be needing to hit 4+ times to bring them down (LTs, Bosses, Elite Bosses and AV/Hero). On these tougher targets, you'll be debuffing them for the entire team for a sustained period of time ... simply because they're not One Shot Wonders. When you start getting into the 4+ attacks per target range, you start standing a decent chance of being able to "fuel" the damage throughput advantage of debuffing resistance rather than applying direct damage (which, depending on type, may be heavily resisted by the $target).
And Werner is quite right about Resist Debuffing being the "most useful" on Boss and up type $targets via single target attacks when playing solo. Under solo conditions, Resist Debuffing in cone/AoE attack powers is substantially "wasted" for all intents and purposes (not *entirely*, just substantially) due to the lack of a target rich environment.
In a target rich environment, particularly on Team-8, either when soloing or when actually teamed ... having a Resist Debuff in cone/AoE powers becomes useful again simply due to the quantities of hostiles and the sheer number of "dice" being thrown around for random rolls. This means far more opportunities to proc Resist Debuffing via multi-target hits, which can in turn create exploitable opportunities for a player who is actively controlling their target selection, rather than simply doing a target follow$$near and not actively paying attention to situational awareness (which given the pace of combat is not always easy to maintain in the face of Scrapperlock).
All of which means the question (rather neatly) folds back on itself, producing the inevitable ... "Depends on your playstyle" ... answer.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Thanks for that (and everyone else's posts). I don't know how much the Gladiator proc goes for, but I would imagine it's quite a bit. Not sure if I would be able to afford it, unless it's in the >10 million range (I could spend more, but I try to minimize those bigger cost recipes in my builds if I can). So I don't know if I could aim for -res stacking with that.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Generally speaking, use them in your single-target chain until you're up to about 4 or 5 every ten seconds. Generally speaking, don't use them in AoEs unless they're part of your single-target chain. Some exceptions for large team boss farming and the like.
Here's my current writeup for the Achilles' Heel or Fury of the Gladiator procs in AoEs, which is obviously in need of editing: |
Just as a reminder, if I'm going to use the Achilles -res proc, it will always be in a fast recharging, ST attack. So Gambler's Cut has it for my Nin Stalker and my Katana Scrapper, same for Pistols in my Dual Pistols Blaster (that's the Tier 1 attack, fyi). What I'm debating is if I should use it in cones that I do find useful in ST and in AOE situations, so Flashing Steel and Empty Clips... both are low enough on endurance and do good enough damage that I find them decent in both situations.
My Katana Scrapper used to have the -res proc in both Sting of the Wasp and Flashing Steel, and he had no issues getting the -res to show up on the hard target he was facing in the mob (as in getting it up early in the fight and keeping it there). He also had occasional benefits where others in the mob were debuffed as well. Now he only has it in Sting of the Wasp, and my Nin Stalker only has it in Gambler's Cut. I do notice that it takes longer to get applied sometimes, and isn't up as easily, hence me wondering if another proc is worth it.
My Dual Pistols Blaster is about to start slotting IOs in a few levels (he's almost 26 now), so I'm wondering if I should aim for an Achilles proc in Empty Clips to complement the Achilles -res in Pistols (and to stack on the -res in Piercing Rounds if I'm using standard ammo), or to shoot for a damage proc instead. Hmmm, pun intended? Anyway, I can see the benefit of jumping in, firing that, and then using Bullet Rain, which WILL have a damage proc. Seems like the Achilles might help there, and for my Scrapper and Stalker, but I'm not sure.
But I might be quibbling over not a whole lot.
*added*
I do team a lot and solo a lot on most of my characters, so... it's probably a wash. Was curious and wanted to bounce ideas around, though.
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Depends how much later and how many people benefit. One character getting off one hit in two seconds or eight characters getting off eight hits in two seconds. Most cases would fall in between. An extra 71.8 isn't likely to be the deciding factor, but an extra 20% across the board (and that 20% of real damage, not base damage) can be.
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Originally Posted by Werner
OK, we can look at it in those terms. Regular damage procs in AoEs usually do more damage, and do it now. Resist debuff procs usually do less damage, and do it later. More damage now saves more time/attacks/endurance than less damage later.
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Either I'm completely missing your point, or you're completely missing mine. So I'll try again taking a slightly different approach.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
Depends how much later and how many people benefit. One character getting off one hit in two seconds or eight characters getting off eight hits in two seconds. Most cases would fall in between. An extra 71.8 isn't likely to be the deciding factor, but an extra 20% across the board (and that 20% of real damage, not base damage) can be.
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You and your full team encounter a full spawn with 2 bosses, 3 lieutenants and 5 minions. You get to the team first and launch your AoE, which does no damage of its own other than the proc. You and the team then wipe out the entire spawn in the next 10 seconds. This situation is the best possible scenario for the debuff compared to straight damage procs. Taking the average of the procs across many such spawns.
Achilles' Heel: 86 * 2 bosses + 27 * 2 lieutenants + 14 x 5 minions = 296 damageThat's your ideal. Now maybe this is what you mean when you say that looking at max damage (I assume you meant damage instead of usage) isn't the ideal. I would argue here that even though the purple proc does more overall damage, the Achilles' Heel is more useful, because it preferentially targets the bosses for additional damage. If bosses are what typically survive the longest in large spawns on large teams (as I assume to be the case), then this preferential damage will speed things up slightly on average. So I would argue here that the Achilles' Heel is better than the purple proc for this situation.
Damage Proc: 14 * 10 mobs = 140 damage
Purple Proc: 35 * 10 mobs = 350 damage
But this situation was an ideal situation. The first obvious deviation from this ideal is that your own AoE attack does damage. Just to have a number, I'm going to use my The Lotus Drops from my Katana/Dark. Looks like it does 277 damage under Build Up. That seems reasonable to use. Now everyone has fewer hit points for the proc to help with. Now it looks like this:
Achilles' Heel: 76 * 2 bosses + 18 * 2 lieutenants + 4 * 5 minions = 208 damageLooking worse. Damage on bosses is still good, so maybe it's still better than a purple proc. But getting more realistic, hopefully the tank is leading the charge, and is probably using AoE to help get control of the situation. And others are probably itching to do damage as well, so you aren't likely first AoE every time. So on average, they'll have taken somewhat more than that 277 damage before your debuff kicks in. Let's say they've taken 600 points of damage - the minions are all dead, and the lieutenants are hurting.
Achilles' Heel: 66 * 2 bosses + 7 * 2 lieutenants = 146 damageBut maybe you're not fighting +0. Maybe you're fighting +2. Do normal teams carve through a +2 spawn with bosses in ten seconds? Eh, let's say they do. Your 600 points of damage is now only 480 points, and the other procs are at reduced damage:
Achilles' Heel: 70 * 2 bosses + 11 * 2 lieutenants = 162 damageAnd so it goes. My general observation would be that the purple proc usually simply does more damage. A further advantage of this is that the damage is all up front, so is more useful for mitigation through such things as finishing off minions or lieutenants more quickly while you pound on the bosses. But the Achilles' Heel is useful for its preferential targeting of bosses for additional damage during the course of the fight. This is less useful up front, in mitigation, and does less damage overall. But if you can take the bosses out that much faster, you should be able to finish the fight that much faster, as bosses probably tend to last the longest.
Damage Proc: 11 * 10 mobs = 110 damage
Purple Proc: 28 * 10 mobs = 280 damage
Coming clean, my Fire/Shield has a Fury of the Gladiator proc in Fire Sword Circle. Why? Well, mainly because he already has the purple proc. But I'm also banking on the preferential damaging of bosses to hopefully speed my progress through spawns solo. And because the toon has serious AoE, so is more likely to get at least SOME damage from the proc on things other than his primary target (bosses). And because Fire Sword Circle is part of his "single" target attack chain.
Now, having covered all that, I perhaps still simply don't get what you're trying to say, but I'll try. I think you're trying to say that the average damage done, and when it is done, isn't what is most relevant. What is most relevant is how likely the proc is to save time/attacks/endurance.
You are correct! But that doesn't make the Achilles' Heel any better compared to its rivals. Ignoring WHEN the damage is done, the chance of some damage saving an attack (and thus time and endurance) down the line is basically a direct correlation with the damage done. This is all about the law of averages. Even ONE more point of damage might (though it's very unlikely) save an attack. Your AoE does 277 damage. Your teammate's AoE does 152 points of damage. The minion has 1 hit point left. A proc that does one hit point of damage may save an attack. How likely is this scenario? Not likely, but only because it's a single hit point. A proc that does 107.1 hit points, though, is MUCH more likely to save an attack. I'd say 107.1 times as likely on average as a first pass.
Now that's just minions. The Achilles' Heel is significantly more likely to save an attack on a boss if it fires, but that is already reflected in my numbers, in the way that I calculate significantly more damage for the Achilles' Heel on bosses than on minions.
Now what about the idea of damage NOW instead of damage in the form of a buff? Damage NOW is more likely to save an attack. The trivial case of this is when damage now finishes off the enemy. A buff would require hitting the enemy again. What about our boss situation, first part of the fight? Damage now will hardly make a dent. But so that we're comparing apples to apples, let's say the damage proc does 300 damage now as opposed to 300 damage in the form of buffs to later attacks. Well, damage now is damage in the bank. It applies even if the boss runs off around a corner. It applies even if the team doesn't finish the boss off in the next ten seconds. It may not be MUCH more likely to save an attack, but it is MORE likely, as long as the average damage (as I calculated above) is equal. Now, the average damage of an Achilles' Heel on a boss actually dwarfs the average damage of regular or purple procs. But THAT is the reason it is better on bosses, not some advantage to delaying damage. And that damage difference is already accounted for in everything I've calculated.
Jesus why did I write all that?
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Trick question:
How much damage powered by debuffing need be dealt in order to equal the 71.8 or 107.1 damage dealt by damage proc.
If -20% Resistance Debuff equals +20% more damage throughput (yes, this is very simplistic) ... then the answer is 71.8*5=359 and 107.1*5=535.5 respectively. Any combination of attacks which delivers MORE damage than these respective amounts to a target before it is defeated will effectively deliver greater damage throughput over time via a Resist Debuff proc, than through a Damage Proc.
359 * 1.2 = 430.8
359 + 71.8 = 430.8
535.5 * 1.2 = 642.6
535.5 + 107.1 = 642.6
Again ... this gets back to the question of "how long will $target live?" when under attack, because the $target is going to need to have enough HP to absorb that amount of incoming damage (or higher!) before the Resistance Debuff becomes ... statistically speaking ... a better investment for damage throughput (over time!). Hence, we get back to the point of Resistance Debuffs being "better" ... statistically speaking ... against Lieutenants and up, while Damage procs are "better" ... statistically speaking ... against Minions and Pets (ie. Crunchies).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
A purple proc is 33% likely to fire instead of 20%. So the break even with a purple proc is at 1060 hit points, not at 643 hit points. For 1060 damage, you do 883.33 damage, and the proc does 176.67. 20% chance of 176.67 damage is 35.334 points of damage on average. 33% chance of 107.1 damage is 35.343 damage on average. Also, that 1060 is hit points left AFTER your debuffing attack, so the number of enemy hit points to hit that break even is higher still. Still, for an early-in-the-fight attack on a boss or above, the debuff proc is the winner. But for lieutenants, the purple proc is simply better, and the regular damage proc is at least arguable based on damage likely already done before the proc takes effect, and the advantage of damage now vs. damage later.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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You're arguing for most possible damage over time attributable to the proc and the proc alone. That's why you keep talking about it being a good thing if the AH-slotted attack does no damage. It's also where I think you're going wrong.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Either I'm completely missing your point, or you're completely missing mine. So I'll try again taking a slightly different approach.
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I'm arguing for least time used, encounter to encounter, as the valid measure. Do the same series of encounters in less time and you've got the better solution. I believe that the AH proc, similar to a Sonic cone, does the best in those circumstances. The more characters on a team, the more effective the AH-proc, again just like a Sonic cone.
Take the analysis to the solo context and I fully agree that the purple proc will be better and, often, a common proc may be better. With a team, though, -res is just too good a benefit to pass up. It's why debuffers are good in the game. They make everyone's abilities more effective.
PVE is essentially farming. You face large numbers of mobs in concentrated groups and you take them down in chunks. As with farming, AOEs are most effective here. The more powerful your AOEs and more plentiful your AOEs, the faster you'll go through those groups. Add AOE debuffs and you'll go much faster, especially a -res debuff because it adds the debuff percentage to your enhanced damage, not your base damage.
Now, if one team member leads with a -res debuff and the rest of the team follows with AOEs, you get a huge benefit and you get it immediately. You don't have to wait until the purple-proc-loaded AOE recharges. You don't have to wait a 10 full seconds to determine it's worth. You get to know right at that moment how good it is and it'll be really, really good. The AH proc is just a less-reliable (and often less effective) -res debuff, but it's one that anyone with the prereq powers can slot (i.e. you don't need an AT devoted to debuffing to get the benefit).
As a side note, comparing the AH proc to a purple proc is great if you're talking unlimited budgets and only purple procs. I'm still okay with it, because it is a theoretical competitor for a single slot in a single power, but rarity and price are something to keep in mind. A relatively small percentage of players will ever find a purple proc, let alone equip one.
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I'm not saying it's bad that your AoE does damage. Obviously its best if your AoE does an infinite amount of damage and wipes out the entire spawn instantly. But if it DOES, then slotting the AH proc (or any proc) is completely useless.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
You're arguing for most possible damage over time attributable to the proc and the proc alone. That's why you keep talking about it being a good thing if the AH-slotted attack does no damage. It's also where I think you're going wrong.
I'm arguing for least time used, encounter to encounter, as the valid measure. |
If your AoE does infinite damage, the AH proc is completely useless. Everything is already dead.Again, obviously the more damage your AoE does, the faster you'll move through the spawn, in direct opposition to the sequence above. But the more damage your AoE does, the more likely it is that a regular or purple proc will move you EVEN FASTER through the spawn than the Achilles' Heel.
If your AoE does 1000 points of damage, the AH proc is useless on minions and lieutenants. They're already dead.
If your AoE does 500 points of damage, the AH proc is useless on minions. They're already dead.
If your AoE does 0 points of damage, the AH proc is useful even on minions. It'll be a good buff to follow up attacks.
The reason I'm arguing for damage done attributable to the proc is that damage done is time saved. We're choosing between slotting an Achilles' Heel and a damage proc. We're choosing between time saved by an Achilles' Heel and a damage proc, attributable to the proc alone. We're choosing between damage done by an Achilles' Heel and a damage proc, attributable to the proc alone. Because we're comparing procs.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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In practical terms for the problem, however, it seems like a melee character would be served by having one Achilles in a fast recharging (probably tier 1) attack, so it's there often when you need it with a boss or higher. However, it seems like another Achilles Proc would not serve as well, even in an AOE attack, as a damage proc would be more useful by the time you get in range to use it, and you'll be hitting mostly lower levels of foes with it.
Not sure it adds up as well for a Blaster. There, you can cover a larger area and faster, and you could potentially be helping your team out more as well. But... with Blasters you usually want everything dead faster, so it might seem like damage procs would be better there. For Dual Pistols, though, you could open up with Empty Clips with Achilles in it as you jump in (frequently a favorite method of my Blasters), let loose with Bullet Rain, and even Hail of Bullets, all of which can have damage procs that can take advantage of the Achilles proc potentially, etc.
With that analysis, though, I think Achilles works best. Minions and lieutenants melt fast for a Blaster, it's usually the bosses and EBs you have to worry about more, as they can stick around longer to hit you.
Heh, this is a fun problem to tangle with after grading a bunch of freshman papers and doing laundry all day.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
The purple proc only helps your attack and it only provides a benefit when the slotted attack is used. How many times can that attack be used in ten seconds?
AH helps everyone's attack on any target hit by the proc. It's no longer just X more of your own damage, whatever that might be, it's X more of everyone's damage and it lasts for ten seconds worth of attacks. If the attack cycles again in that time, you may get even more targets.
EDIT: And yes, I fully understand that theoretical minions will be annihilated with three fireball equivalents of AOE damage, and that it doesn't take much more to take down lieutenants. Minions and lieuts rarely last more than a few seconds under any team's efforts. I don't know if an attack can really be saved on lower-tier targets by choosing a damage proc or an AH proc over just SO-slotting. When it comes to taking down bosses, EBs, and AVs faster, will that AOE proc do more damage faster than your teammates' additional damage will? When you've got three Freak Tanks or whatever standing around, what's going to be better?
At 40dps per team member, another 20% is 8dps per team member or 64dps for a team of eight. Over ten seconds, that's 640 additional damage from the AH proc alone, in addition to 3200 from the team. With 3840 a lot of stuff will be long since dead, though, right? Great! At what point in that ten second continuum does damage stop being necessary? The sooner, the better.
We all agree that the AH proc is great in a single, fast-cycling ST attack.
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Most of these differences have already been quantified. What hasn't been quantified is what happens if the attack cycles again in less than ten seconds. Since the debuffs don't stack, the second attack gives you less average damage. Doubling your attack rate from once every ten seconds to once every five seconds doesn't double the average damage contribution of the debuff; it takes you from +3.8% to +6.878% (vs. +7.6%). A damage proc doubles. And while we're on the subject of not stacking, my understanding is that the debuffs don't even stack from Achilles' Heels being used by your teammates, so two teammates using Achilles' Heels will similarly not quite double the damage contribution of the debuff procs. Straight damage from damage procs, of course, does "stack", so doubles normally. Another minor point in favor of straight damage procs.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
The purple proc only helps your attack and it only provides a benefit when the slotted attack is used. How many times can that attack be used in ten seconds?
AH helps everyone's attack on any target hit by the proc. It's no longer just X more of your own damage, whatever that might be, it's X more of everyone's damage and it lasts for ten seconds worth of attacks. If the attack cycles again in that time, you may get even more targets. |
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Originally Posted by streetlight
I don't know if an attack can really be saved on lower-tier targets by choosing a damage proc or an AH proc over just SO-slotting.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
When it comes to taking down bosses, EBs, and AVs faster, will that AOE proc do more damage faster than your teammates' additional damage will?
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Originally Posted by streetlight
When you've got three Freak Tanks or whatever standing around, what's going to be better?
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Originally Posted by streetlight
At 40dps per team member, another 20% is 8dps per team member or 64dps for a team of eight. Over ten seconds, that's 640 additional damage from the AH proc alone, in addition to 3200 from the team. With 3840 a lot of stuff will be long since dead, though, right? Great! At what point in that ten second continuum does damage stop being necessary? The sooner, the better.
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Originally Posted by streetlight
We all agree that the AH proc is great in a single, fast-cycling ST attack.
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Drat, the forums ate my OP. I'll try to rewrite it as best I can.
I have a lot of characters that use weapons, which often do -def, and have access to the Achilles proc. I usually have that proc slotted in an ST attack that recharges quickly so I can get it to fire and stay up on a hard target (so, Golden Dragonfly for Katana and Nin, Pistols for Dual Pistols, Burst for Assault Rifle, etc.).
Is it worth slotting the -resist proc again in another power, and probably a cone (Flashing Steel or Empty Clips, which are also okay to use on a single target)? Or is a damage proc more helpful? Not sure if there's a meaningful difference other than liking one over the other, but I'm debating it today, since I'm thinking of where to take my Dual Pistols Blaster, as well as my Nin Stalker, Kat Scrapper, etc.
The Scrapper boards are usually pretty good for analysis like this, so I thought I'd put it here. Any thoughts?
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