Werner
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Posts
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Joined
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I'm with Nihilii. Never used it. Wouldn't use it. I'd sell it.
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Quote:Yes, that's what I meant, though I'll excuse toxic and psionic when building for typed defense since they are both relatively rare and usually very difficult to build for.Originally Posted by Desmodos
Werner's point (and he'll correct me if I'm off) was soft capping a Dark Armor scrapper (as in to all three positons or all types) would require unpleasant sacrifices. Which I agree with.
Also, I was specifically referring to a Dark Melee/Dark Armor Scrapper, though the same would apply to a lot of other Dark Armor Scrappers. But with enough influence to throw at the problem, inherent fitness and the alpha slot, I think we can once again build soft-capped Sword/Dark Armor Scrappers without any serious sacrifices. Mine has a travel power, decent AoE, decent DPS, decent endurance management (will be sustainable with the very rare alpha), and doesn't skimp on any other aspects of survivability (knockdown, fear, resistance, healing). The main problem is defense debuffs, but that will probably be a weakness of any Dark Armor Scrapper. -
Quote:My Fire/Shield Scrapper sometimes pulls aggro from an Invulnerability/Super Strength Tanker I play with, and even with a slotted Taunt he often can't get aggro back. I can survive some aggro bleed, but I think it wounds his pride if anything ever attacks anyone else.Originally Posted by BrandX
Scrapper AAO will out taunt Ice Tanks. That's how much the enemies will love you!
I have very little trouble with running enemies. It's in stark contrast to my Katana/Dark, even if they do occasionally wander off. -
Quote:Well, I almost never team, so I honestly don't know what the general player base believes. So you could be right. That amuses me, but I can't really fault people. If all you hear is occasional whispers from the grapevine, you might hear "soft cap" when what we're really saying is something much more qualified, like "the soft cap is often one component of good survivability builds, but this depends significantly on your choice of primary and secondary".Originally Posted by Desmodos
I'm not suggesting any validity to the so called "defense myth" but I do disagree with your's and Werner's perception of what the general player base believes about defense and soft capping. I see far too many builds that make what I perceive to be questionable sacrifices in the pursuit of defense soft cap.
In game, I frequently get tells asking how I soft capped my DM/DA and then shock when I explain I'm not. I also see player confused as to why they're soft capped characters is face planting while I'm still alive.
From my perspective, the majority of the player base (not forum posters), do believe defense soft cap is the end all be all of survivability.
I'd be shocked to see a soft-capped DM/DA running around, though maybe there are some. I just can't think how I'd possibly go about building one that wasn't seriously compromised in other critical areas. (Edit: And I LOVES me some soft cap, so I'm not rejecting the idea lightly.) -
Quote:For "Regen", you add either Siphon Life or Aid Self. For resistance, you stack Tough with the scaling resistances. Not much, you say?Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
I think the problem with softcapping /SR is you can not add competitive amounts of Regen or Resist to the build.
I think people underestimate just how much mitigation the scaling damage resistance can provide. I was doing survivability tests at different levels of defense on my DM/SR about a week ago, and I could hang out with frequent blinking red with an average of maybe 40% resistance for ten minutes or more and the spawn might never put me down. They weren't smashing/lethal, but if they were, add Tough on top of that. You may not see that much resistance very often, but you may also find your Super Reflexes ridiculously hard to kill in normal spawns even if you THINK you're about to go down. For that matter, it sometimes works out that way in really nasty spawns. That's pretty much what happened when I took on Manticore Automaton as an AV and near the aggro cap of Nemesis.
OK, yes, a soft-capped Dark Melee/Invuln and a number of other combinations can be even better. But Super Reflexes is no slouch. (Edit: Plus easy 95% defense debuff resistance. Tasty.) -
Quote:This. The soft cap is great, but on its own, you're still going down against anything difficult. Also, some builds can do very well without it, like Scrapper Regen. And yeah, for regular play, I consider one purple from soft cap to be very, very good.Originally Posted by all_hell
Soft cap being the be-all and end-all of a build is what I would consider to be the actual "defense myth."
On the other hand, I think there may simply be a myth of this defense myth. I can't remember anyone seriously suggesting that you soft cap and then you're done. You don't hear about layering much anymore, but I think it may be because that lesson sunk in long ago. I would hope, anyway. -
Quote:I don't know, but if forced to guess, I'd say "yes".Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's actual applied type, right? Like if the attack hits you, that's the type(s) of damage it's likely to apply to you? I ask because, while it's not that common, some attacks have attack type flags (for defense purposes) that don't match up 100% with their applied damage types. My canonical example is Fire Ball, which deals Fire and Smashing damage, but is attack typed only AoE and Fire.
In your example, splitting into fire and smashing is useful when considering resistance, but keeping all the damage under fire is useful when considering defense. But defense gets problematic, because aren't some attacks flagged under two different types for defensive purposes, and you get to use the better defense? I'm not thinking of a very good way to account for that in a simple table. And the damage you actually take just seems like the more commonsense interpretation of the numbers, even if I can't say whether it's the right or wrong interpretation.
Either way, my survivability spreadsheet handles it incorrectly, because it assumes that attacks are always of one type only, and are flagged with that type. I figure it's a good enough approximation though, and probably the least of the spreadsheet's issues. -
Quote:No, unfortunately it doesn't, only damage types. I personally use 70% melee, 20% ranged and 10% AoE for overall damage for melee characters, but those numbers are completely made up. They'll also vary a bit based on your build - whether you spend some time moving around to line up cone attacks, for instance, or if you have a taunt aura that will help keep them glued to you instead of plinking from range.Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Does this analysis also include damage positions? Like, what is the percent breakdown between Melee, AOE, Ranged and vectorless (like some of the psi attacks)? I ask because sometimes I suspect I spend too much effort chasing down AOE def when, though it may be common (I'm sure it's in the realm of 33% of attacks) but the damage tends to be lower than the ST attacks from Melee, Range.
Similarly, the type percentages will vary significantly based on what you're facing, but hopefully that goes without saying.
Here's the table:
41.78% Lethal
27.90% Smashing
12.12% Energy
5.33% Fire
4.60% Toxic
4.33% Negative
2.04% Psionic
1.90% Cold -
Quote:This, PLUS it's from a damage type that represents about 16% of incoming damage blue side (based on a study by Besserwisser). So in total, picking up that last little bit would add about a third of one percent to your survivability. So no, not really worth worrying about if you're happy with the build otherwise.Originally Posted by DSorrow
With 44.9% Def you'll be taking 5.1% of incoming damage instead of 5% when at 45% Def. The difference is 5.1%/5% = 1.02 which means you'll be taking 2% more damage at 44.9% Def. I can't really imagine you ever noticing the difference, so it isn't really worth the enhancement slot.
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Quote:The only main Scrapper I'm not running Leadership on is about to pick it up due to inherent Fitness. I think we're going to see even more stacking of Leadership buffs on teams than we do currently. I suppose it's minor compared to real buffs, but it adds up.Originally Posted by Doomguide
Bit of an after thought ... it was interesting to see just how much Leadership our Apex/Tin Mage scrappers were running. If I remember right 3 Assault, 3 Tactics and 4 Maneuvers when were close to each other. Those Maneuvers by them selves would add about another 9% across the board to my numbers (not 12% since I was one of the Maneuvers running)
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Quote:LOL flounce!Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Anyway, I won't be reading or responding any further, but do feel free to run amok if you want
Well, since Bunny is no longer reading, that means I'm no longer arguing, so the prohibition against me responding is lifted, right? Right?
So was that the worst example you've ever seen of being so locked in to your little world that you have absolutely ZERO ability to comprehend a single word that anyone else is saying?
Instead of using everyone else's definitions for words, make up your own, and then when people say true things using the common definition of words, interpret what they said using your own definitions, and then tell them they're wrong. It's why I TRIED to keep up with his alternative definitions in the other thread as I discovered them, such as using his alternative definition for mitigation, because it was obvious that he simply couldn't comprehend how anyone else might use words differently (because our definitions are wrong). My attempt failed, of course. When something like the definition of "value" in regards to defense becomes so strained that you can say (incorrectly mind you), that defense gives exponential rises to survivability, and simultaneously say that this isn't valuable, you're in such a tiny, self-contained bubble universe as to make communication impossible.
So wow. Seriously. Wow. I'm impressed. I have not seen that level of "lalala I can't hear you" in a very, very long time.
Well, back to playing. -
Quote:Excellent job!Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Thankfully with Invincibility saturated I do get around 59% Defense.
My Katana/Dark respec will give me about 75% melee and lethal defense. It's still stuck at that old school 45% on ranged and AoE, though. That's SO six posts ago.
Wonder what I could do with my Dark Melee/Super Reflexes if we really do "need" to hit 59%... totally jumping the gun, but an interesting question... -
64% is the new 50%. 59% is the new 45%.
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Quote:Tough and Weave. Aid Self might sound like just what the doctor ordered, but it kind of isn't. Stick with better mitigation. Your secondary has your healing covered. Mind you, this standard advice may need rethinking in the age of inherent Fitness.Originally Posted by Dark_Inferno
WP sounds good.
Will I need tough and weave? Or, better off with Aid Self?
Also, I am a little worried about the taunt in the power that adds the regen and to-hit debuff. I have had trouble with a scrapper with /shield who had a power that also was an AoE taunt and he got a fair bit of aggro.
Taunt on Shield Defense boosts your damage. Taunt on Willpower boosts your regeneration. So it should be less of an issue on Willpower. -
Quote:Well yeah, Tankers can solo AVs too (as can many other archetypes). But I guess it doesn't SURPRISE me when people don't realize that Tankers can put out enough DPS to do it. People often don't realize how much DPS you can get on a Tanker if you build for it, and how "little" DPS it takes to solo an AV if you're patient. And of course you can get the survivability on a Tanker.Originally Posted by MrLiberty
C'mon lets throw tankers onto that list too!
First is just a simple vs. Chimera
http://www.wegame.com/watch/firess-av-solo/
Second is much more fun.
http://www.wegame.com/watch/av-solo-tanker-style/
Grats in any case. That's better damage than I do on most of my scrappers.
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When I was working out the values for a build, I just stuck all of the relevant base values and enhancement values in a spreadsheet as input. Then I added the ED-affected portion (from a cell) and applied the relevant ED calculation (a nested IF statement), added the ED-unaffected portion (from another cell) to get a final enhancement value, then applied the enhancement to the value. For instance, while calculating endurance in OpenOffice for the cardiac alpha:
- C4881=base endurance consumption
- D4881=enhancement before ED is applied
- G4481=D4881+G$4879 <-- add the ED-affected portion of the alpha slot
- H4481=IF(G4881<=70%;G4881;IF(G4881<=90%;70%+0.9*(G 4881-70%);IF(G4881<100%;88%+0.7*(G4881-90%);95%+0.15*(G4881-100%)))) <-- apply ED
- I4481=C4881/(100%+I$4879+H4881) <-- add the ED-unaffected portion and apply to the base
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I too think it could be done with the right build if you stick to certain AVs, particularly now with inherent Fitness and the alpha slot. I haven't tried to make the sort of build it would require, but it feels possible to put such a build together to me.
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I've not looked at Super Strength on Brutes, but just for proof of concept purposes, some time ago I put together a Invulnerability/Super Strength TANKER build with as much DPS as I had on Sergei (Dark Melee/Super Reflexes Scrapper) back when I was soloing AVs in I12, or I13, or whatever. Before the Dark Melee buffs. So I'd be pretty confident that a Super Strength Brute COULD put out the required DPS. But due to my lack of familiarity with Brutes, I'm not sure how specialized a build it would take, or if you could do it with a nice generalist build without major compromises. The Tanker build in question was certainly badly compromised and would not have made a very good tank. Also not sure how badly the Rage crash plays out when AV soloing since the build relied on double-stacked Rage, and thus lots of Rage crashing. Without Rage, hmmmm.... yeah, I just don't know.
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Quote:I suppose it shouldn't surprise me, but it still surprises me when people have no idea Scrappers and Brutes can solo AVs, much less solo them without temps and inspirations. How to do it has been common forum knowledge for so long, and so many people have by now. I know people new to the forums may not have ever encountered it, but people who've been around a while... well, I guess it's just a matter of what forums and what threads you read.Originally Posted by Nihilii
I just soloed a +2 AV on my Fire/Stone brute
Still, at least the person that was most aggressive about not believing had only joined the forums last month, so it's less surprising in that case that he wouldn't know, and would honestly think it completely impossible, and that anyone claiming to have done it was a giant liar (which he made quite clear). On the other hand, he says he had 12 billion to bet, so he can't be a complete newb (unless he's a really good marketeer), so I feel less bad about you taking that easy money (not that soloing a 52 AV is easy, but still).
I'll probably give uplevel AVs a shot as I start getting my alpha slot builds figured out, but I'm pretty slow at that sort of thing, so I expect results after 50 other people have already done the same thing.
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Awesome job, y'all!
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Quote:It has been around forever. I think it has always been "bugged". In fact, it's been around so long that I've heard that a red name is on record saying these are no longer considered exploits, but simply the way the hamios work, and I guess what makes them still worth slotting occasionally instead of having a complete domination of IOs. I've not seen this supposed post, though, and it was also made almost forever ago if it was made. So the way they work is not something I ever expect to change. If it ever does, I'll respec at that point, and I'm comfortable with that.Originally Posted by John_Printemps
How long has the Enzyme Exploit been around for the Hami-O's? Don't normally deal in them myself, so wasn't aware of it until recently. But, given it shouldn't be giving the bonus that it is, wouldn't it viably be safer to stick with the Cytoskeletons? If you swap the Enzymes with the Cyto's, it does result in a significant cut in the defenses (about 2% across). Still think it would be safer to go the exploited-free route I mentioned before. Still viable to get to 70/45/40-42 and meet the resistance expectations, all while widening the distance on end usage. Possible to get 1.2 net gain versus the .8 you're looking at right now.
I still need to look over what you did more carefully. I agree that Hasten would be very nice to have, and may be worth losing something for. I don't think defense is something I'm willing to give up though. One possibility is to give up damage output, going back to my old chain of Divine Avalanche -> Gambler's Cut -> Sting of the Wasp -> Gambler's Cut. But in my few attempts to make something of that, I've ended up not only with worse DPS, but just a worse build overall. I may keep poking at it now that the time pressure is off since I think I missed the deadline for the first freespec.
As for endurance, the most recent build should be sustainable for Stupid Scrapper Tricks once we get the very rare. Yeah, we don't know how long that will be, but I can fiddle with toggles a lot until that point, even if it's for months. And for normal play, I should be just fine with the blues that drop. -
End result of the Gladiator's Armor set idea from Gaidin: better hit points (1848), better resistance profile, AoE actually soft capped now instead of 0.1% below the cap, faster Hover speed, but 1 less point of knockback protection (11). I'm happy with the change.
I'm also thinking of dropping Vengeance and picking up Assault. Turns out I underestimated my recovery when I was using the I18 Mids', or maybe I've just accidentally picked up a lot more since then, and I can afford another toggle, again once I have the very rare. Until then, it's just one more thing to use situationally, one common situation being all my normal missioning. The down side is that Vengeance was a set mule for the Shield Wall +3% resistance, which now requires a slot, which I scavenged from Divine Avalanche. That brings my melee and lethal defense down to 70% from almost 75%, but my stated goal was just 70%. More is always better, but it's unlikely to come into play very often.
Do 13 toggles make me Toggle Man?
Resistances with the very rare are now:
60% smashing/lethal
57% psionic
55% negative
44% fire/cold
30% toxic
29% energy
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Quote:Dark Melee/Invulnerability? Awesome, awesome combo in its element - surrounded by smashing/lethal enemies. And not too shabby even when it strays out of its element. With that sort of global recharge, you should be able to put out very good DPS with Smite -> Midnight Grasp -> Smite -> Siphon Life.Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Interesting thought. Mine is actually built to tank, and mostly for fun. I have cranked about 200% global recharge onto him to bring up my fun powers fast, Soul Drain, Dark Consumption, Dull Pain, and Dark obliteration. The build is lotsa fun to run, and I can tank just about any uplevel AV (even did Posi and BAB for almost 3 min to pull them off a team-without Unstoppable) I think he is the best thing since Thanksgiving dinner. But I have been told he is written so badly he cannot damage low level CoT mages. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle, and like I said, wow, tons of fun.
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Quote:Eh, it's more of a freebie than usual. I've failed completely to take advantage of it, but people who planned ahead better than I probably got the benefit on at least a couple characters. I just tend to take a wait and see attitude towards new issues, which bit me in this case.Originally Posted by Moonlighter
The "you have a week to respec all your characters" aspect of this issue is really aggravating.
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Quote:Nemesis you say? Yeah, that bubble can be annoying, can't it?Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
Oh back before ED, my claws/invuln scrapper soloed Nemesis Rex in a mission... sort of.
I got him down to the point where he PFFs, at that point he regenned up enough that by the time it dropped and I got him back down in hp... it had recharged. So I was recruiting for a -regen debuffer or extra DPS via team search (we didn't even have global channels back then!) while standing there continuing to pound on him to keep him from regenning to full, since I was able to keep fighting him indefinitely. After 4 or 5 PFF cycles I finally got a couple people, they showed up, and we finished him off.
Sergei vs. Nemesis: 6 hours in 5 minutes