Werner

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Thank you very much for your replies. I hadn't thought of using Self-dest + RotP, but now I am. I'll be getting burn later on. Right now I have a date with my "Do Not Press" button.

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Yay!

Wait, Self Destruction and then Rise of the Phoenix? I... I weep at the beauty.

Use Rise of the Phoenix more often than Burn? How often do you die? And if the answer is “every chance I get so that I can use Rise of the Phoenix”, you win all the scrapper points.

I ignored the low level combos, just using attacks that looked good. When I could, I respec'd into Attack Vitals. That's my only combo. Sweep is good too.

I'd say Burn. I'd rather have a power that helps keep me from dying than one that lets me come back from a death. Just think of Burn as a way of reducing the incoming damage rather than an attack. The damage is incidental, in a sense.

I haven't looked at the builds, but just from the numbers you posted, I'm pretty confident your Claws/Invuln is a much better candidate.

Eh, I can understand calling marketeering aberrant behavior in the context of a super hero game. The game is centered around super heroes and super heroic behavior. Yes, there is some background for marketeering in the genre, such as Bruce Wayne. But for the most part, kids aren't reading comic books about super heroes buying and selling and making money. So I can understand the devs and most of the players wanting the game to center around something other than the market, even if some of us enjoy the market mini game. I can understand how it might be desirable to reward super heroic activities more than marketeering activities if that were possible.

But then, I don't think we're in danger of it becoming City of Marketeers. I'm sure I spend ten times as much time doing super heroic things as I do marketeering, and probably most people spend even less time in the market. So I don't really see any problem here, even if marketeering is significantly more profitable for the time spent.

On a rather different subject, I enjoyed the old Hami raids. Probably spent hundreds of hours on them. Had a Hamio'd toon, just for fun. I didn't PvP, just wanted to blow the [censored] out of bad guys. And there were the same sort of complaints of scarcity back then, why should the players with the Hamios be more powerful than those without. Well, because I put in hundreds of hours more effort than you did? But I think the complaints were justified on the grounds that for most people, raids just sucked. Nobody wants to put in hundreds of hours doing something they HATE for their shinies. Well, now they don't. You might still need to put in hundreds of hours to get them, but you have all sorts of OPTIONS of how you go about getting them. You can run Architect Entertainment missions. You can run regular missions. You can solo. You can run in big groups. You can do task forces. You can play the market. But no matter what you do, you're going to have to put in some effort if you want the uber lewt. It's just up to you what that effort is.

Worst. Forum. War. Evar.

And this KEEPS happening on the CoH forums. People disagree, argue for a while, and then... people see each others points, and it just evaporates. Now you're even discussing the original topic! What's WRONG with you people!

(I love the CoH forums. Thank you everyone for restoring my faith in humanity and all that. )

Yeah, I'd blow lots of influence on good costume pieces. I'm already blowing real money on them. Why not influence?

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Unless you want swords, I'd go with Incinerate -> Scorch -> Cremate -> Scorch. About 7% lower DPS than the Incinerate -> Cremate -> GFS -> FS chain, but it takes one less attack, and uses 11% less endurance. It's what I would probably use if I were making a Fire scrapper. And for a brute, it's even better, because Scorch is your fastest attack, and Brutes can't stop for endurance.

You're looking for +145% recharge in Incinerate, or 4.09 seconds.

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Hi Werner!

I think I'm going with this. Still not positive but it looks like it will run Inc>Cr>FS with only a .05 loss of endurance/sec total which is close enough to forever to be good with me.

Plus I get two AoEs!

How does the overall DPS stack up in that single target chain compared to the one you suggested? I know the build is crazy expensive but I got time.

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I'm showing yours at about 6% better DPS at about 6% more EPS. A few minor down sides. The attacks average 1.72 seconds vs. 1.49 seconds for what I mentioned, so you'll generate Fury more slowly. I don't know if it means you'll settle at a lower maximum level of Fury or not, as I don't know enough about the Fury mechanics. It takes +204% recharge vs. +145% recharge. And you'll get more mileage out of the Hecatomb proc in Scorch since you get it twice per short chain. It wouldn't surprise me if the chains did approximately the same damage in practice. It's not like any of these chains suck, though. They're all good options.

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It might be a first, but I disagree with you, Werner.

Aid Self costs an additional pool and one power pick over Siphon Life. It means tradeoffs. You have to lose one between Fitness, Jumping/Flying, Fighting and Speed.

The animation is so long it heals less than Siphon Life over time even if you were to spam it, and that's assuming you never get interrupted - it happens to me a lot, especially if I use additional mobs to fuel Invinc. Spamming Aid Self also decreases DPS, and breaks combos for DB. So not only you get lower DPS because you're not DM, but your lower DPS falls further behind if you have to heal at all.

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Yeah, I know Aid Self means trade offs. On top of how much I HATE Aid Self, it made choosing Dark Melee easy for me. I think it's one of the three best picks for a big game hunter, and the top pick for the more defensive secondaries.

But big game hunting =/= the game at large.

For how you and I play, single target DPS is a huge factor. I don't think it's such a huge factor in the game at large.

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Is the lack of AoE enough to balance the strength of the
set ? I know for me, personally, it's not.

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Me either. But we're, uh... not normal.

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I'm not saying DM is overpowered overall

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Exactly. See? We agree.

Unless you want swords, I'd go with Incinerate -> Scorch -> Cremate -> Scorch. About 7% lower DPS than the Incinerate -> Cremate -> GFS -> FS chain, but it takes one less attack, and uses 11% less endurance. It's what I would probably use if I were making a Fire scrapper. And for a brute, it's even better, because Scorch is your fastest attack, and Brutes can't stop for endurance.

You're looking for +145% recharge in Incinerate, or 4.09 seconds.

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I'm for boosting Scrapper damage by 15%.

Forget about survivability.(You can solo an AV what more do you need)

[/ QUOTE ]I'm just going to leave this sentence here for a bit where you can read it.

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LOL! Again, I have no dog in this hunt, but that's classic. Thank you, Talen. *bow*

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I'm sorry, was I not suppose to bring valid arguments to the table?


Whoops, my bad, didn't wanna make you just sound like a whiner...

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No, please DO bring valid arguments to the table, lol. Or go with the name calling, whatever works for you little fella!

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Awe, how cute, you used "little fella" in an attempt to belittle me in your game of Forum PvP. Yay! Gold star, you're so advanced in teh word peeveepees!

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I'll point out that when you start the name-calling, you might just be giving up the right to climb on a high horse for being called a name. And if your response to that was going to be that you didn't call him a name, that's kind of like getting off on a technicality – doesn't mean you didn't commit the crime.

I'm not even reading the argument. Just skimming. Don't know which side who is taking. Don't care.

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I don't hate the market. I don't hate marketeers. But I don't think that playing the market should be the only way to IO out a character. I don't believe that playing the market should provide rewards over time so far in excess of what can be earned playing the game "normally." I would honestly encourage the devs to quarduple the drop rate on all uncommon and rare IOs, let the market adjust as it will, and let the people who want to play charaters outside the AH get an even chance to get the best IOs in the game.

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Playing the market certainly isn't the only way to outfit a character. I purpled out my first character by just playing the game. It took hundreds of hours of grinding on a 50. I can't deny that the market is much more efficient from a time-spent standpoint.

And yeah, I'll kind of agree that that's not really the main thrust of the game. It does seem a little funny that playing the market is so much more efficient than more super-heroic sorts of activities like busting bad guys and fighting archvillains.

The devs seem to be heading in the opposite direction if anything, though. First there were ultra rare purples, and now we have certain PvP IOs going for prices the purples only dream of. The devs seem to be enamored of the idea of extreme scarcity for the absolute best equipment.

I suppose it's actually gone farther than I'd personally prefer. I'm a powergamer, and my interest is in the absolute best possible. But I want what I learn about top end builds and what can be done to be applicable to more than just a handful of people. If I'm the only one that can afford my build, what good is the knowledge I gain going to do anyone?

Uh... brute smash?

(Seriously, that's all I know. Never calculated a thing for brutes. Just went and smashed. )

You think? I don't have that impression. I think it pays for all that single target goodness and survivability by not having much AoE. I think it's just for us min/max big game hunters that it can blow other primaries away, and it still depends on the secondary. Even for big game hunting, other primaries can do most of what Dark Melee can do because single target DPS isn't the typical sticking point, and Aid Self can usually substitute just fine for Siphon Life, even if I hate Aid Self.

Still, if I were rating the top three primaries for cost no object big game hunting, they'd be Katana, Broad Sword and Dark Melee, not necessarily in that order (depends on the secondary).

I believe he's comparing at 75%, but I don't remember for sure, and I'm too lazy to reread.

My scrappers:

50 Katana/Regeneration
50 Broad Sword/Invulnerability
50 Dark Melee/Super Reflexes
50 Dual Blades/Willpower
45 Broad Sword/Shield Defense
44 Spines/Dark Armor
36 Claws/Super Reflexes
30 Katana/Dark Armor
8 Fiery Melee/Fire Armor

And you're right, Shred. I remember someone looking for the least popular combination. I think we decided Martial Arts/Dark Armor would be the least popular, and after careful examination, we realized that it would be a great combination. Why aren't I playing one of those?

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In the standard car analogy, Kias and Hondas are free, essentially just for showing up, BMW's and Lexuses abound for next to minimal efforts, and even Lamborghini's and Ferraris are there for the taking, given sufficient time, knowledge and effort.

I'm having a difficult time seeing "losers" here (except for the clueless/lazy) or how
it implies evidence of a poor, broken, game/economy model.

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A lot of people don't want to put forth the effort to buy themselves a Lamborghini. I'm not sure MMOs are the right games for those people, though. Perhaps a nice shooter with the cheat codes to get the BFG from the start.

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Before I9, did you hear people complaining that things were too expensive? That they could not outfit their character in whatever way they wanted with no effort?

I can't find a nice way to say the rest. I keep deleting the bitter comments. 4 times, tried and failed to be nice and positive when discussing the drop rate and the devs decision to make the best IOs the rarest.

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So people would be happier if the best IOs were the most common? I suppose there is a subset of players for whom that would be true. There's also a subset of players that would prefer to be powerleveled to 50 instead of playing the game themselves. And another subset of gamers that won't even play MMOs because it's too much of a grind. Each MMO has to draw their own line somewhere between giving you an “I win!” button and forcing you to grind for thousands of hours to gain a single level. I like where CoH drew the line in I9+. Some people prefer where CoH drew the line before I9, before there was any leet lewt. These being simply preferences, nobody's really wrong; it's just a matter of what you want out of your MMO experience.

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You seem to still be responding to my original "the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, blah blah blah." That statement was in regard to inflation.

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ah, ok- misunderstood your thrust.

sorry.

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I probably wasn't very clear in that earlier post, as I don't think it was just you that didn't get what I was trying to say. No problem. Probably my poor Englishments.

You missed the memo? Yeah, it turns out that marketeering is evil and ruins the game for everyone else. If it wasn't for people like us with a basic grasp of economics, CoX would be a paradise of plenty. Shinies for everyone! Everyone's a winner! Here's your sticker! Yay, stickers!

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I have plenty of alts, so the influence cap is merely an annoyance, not a requirement to spend. I do probably spend half of what I make. But like Fulmens, it does seem like a lot of it is going to the other rich – purples probably represent half of my expenses, and with few exceptions, I use level 50 set IOs.

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anyone at any level can get as rich as they want via pure market games- being 50 does make it easier if you farm, but literally *anyone* can be "rich" if they care to.

Having a fat bankroll makes certain market games easier, but does nothing to make the "poor" any poorer.

Only the obtuse, mentally deficient or lazy are poor anymore.

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Actually, the market is so simple and takes so little time that I'm not sure lazy even counts. I consider myself quite lazy in that regard. There's also a class of people who dislike and won't play the market mini-game. The only problem is if those same people complain about not being able to afford the shinies. Heck, you can afford the shinies without playing the market. I purpled out my first toon before I started marketeering.

I agree that you can easily start from nothing. I proved it to myself starting over on a new server with 0 inf. Sell the two inspirations, a little arbitrage, a little recipe crafting, a lot of recipe crafting, and poof, far more influence than I could ever hope to spend on a bunch of new lowbies.

You seem to still be responding to my original "the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, blah blah blah." That statement was in regard to inflation. I figure that the poor will have a small bankroll, and the rich a large one. I figure that in a rapid inflation environment, the rich would be smart enough to shift their influence into appreciating assets, while the poor (being "obtuse, mentally deficient or lazy") would simply watch their bankroll disappear. I don't think that's desirable for either party. Although only a minor inconvenience, I don't want to have to buy and hold assets against inflation. And I'm pretty sure the poor don't want to watch their meager bankrolls get devalued. But also on the original topic, I'm not convinced we have inflation at all, and if we do it doesn't seem to be serious, so this seems largely theorycraft rather than a practical concern.

It's also an amusing difference between CoX and the real world. Out in the real world, I believe inflation is commonly considered to have the opposite effect because inflation makes debt repayment easier, and the poor considered to have a higher debt to income ratio. I don't really buy it, though, because debt holders are smart enough to include anticipated inflation in their rates. So only unexpectedly high inflation would have that effect. Still, if you're poor, or more accurately if you have a high debt to income ratio (regardless of rich or poor), hope for unexpectedly high inflation. I may perhaps be looking at it too simplistically; I'm no economist.

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Seriously, the fact that I continue to make money off the market boggles my own mind.

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Yup. I've camped two crafting niches since I started. Profits go up and down, but they're never down enough that I care to take five minutes to find another niche. I think people either don't check the difference between recipe and enhancement costs, or don't care that they throw away a couple million when they want it now. I understand that. I'm terminally lazy myself.

On another note, I think I agree with everyone in this thread on every side. No, I'm not sure how that's possible either. I must be tired.

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Im rich ingame.
I dont get the point here.
keep an eye on the market, another on
what are you doin' with your alt.
Solved.

You guys soud archaic to me.

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OK, back to basics:

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1) Do you think that we have, truly, inflation? Most of the "middle class valuables" (Detonation Acc/Dam, to pull an example out of the air) are about the same price they were a month after issue 9 hit. Those may be priced at "round up to a nickel" levels, however. Recently I've seen people rounding up to the nearest 100K for common IO's, and lots of them.

2) Do you think that inflation [should it exist] is a problem?

3) What tools are there for fighting inflation of this sort?

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I fail to see how your suggestion to “keep an eye on the market, another on what are you doin' with your alt” answers these questions or solves the mentioned problem (inflation, and presumably its ill effects).

If you were suggesting that marketeering was the way to avoid inflation's ill effects, that works just fine for the marketeers, but I don't think that's who we're worried about. Our concern is more global and less personal.

Anyway, since I seem to be falling more and more into this particular conversation, I'll give my opinions.

1) On the things I care most about (top end recipes), my impression is that we've had inflation. It seems like it would cost me twice as much influence or more to purple out a character now than when I started. For my low to mid level set IO crafting niches, prices move all over, and while I think the overall trend has been slightly upward, it's hard to say for sure. In contrast, rare arcane salvage seems to be and remain lower than it was in the beginning, but that's probably just because of the supply side changes.

2) If inflation exists at all, it seems like a problem, but only a small one. I just like fairly stable prices, and I would guess a lot of players are like me in this. I don't want to type an extra 0. I don't want the influence cap to force me to shift a lot of funds around to purple out a single character. And while I doubt it affects many people, I don't want to have to convert my influence to assets as a hedge against inflation. I don't see a barrier to entry in the inflation, in that my lowbies seem much better equipped than ever, even without transferring influence.

3) Make it easier and more desirable to destroy influence. Others have made some interesting suggestions. I can't think of anything to add.