Warkupo

Probably be easier if they just gave us more than a single row to set unslotted enhancements in.

From the videos I've watched, it seems like it's a REALLY good idea to try and be behind something when it comes time to summon the PA again.

You can be a little bit over because the PA takes a few seconds to fully disassemble.

I edited my original comment. I'm pretty sure I knew this, but my mind was stuck on 350%, which I then typo'd as 250%.

I have no idea what happened really. My mind decided to just vomit a sentence out.

mmm, better hit up the Player Question board before all this gets underway then.

Oh I know.

It's just not so great for *my* AR/Dev so I have a very personal bias against it =D

If given my way (something I would warn against doing regularly) I would remove Beanbag and let me fire rockets out of my fingertips, or something.

Okay, admittedly I didn't read your post. If I can borrow from your own pile of excuses I don't really feel like I need too. I was gonna make some snappy retort, but I'd rather just get this out of the way. I've posted data all over the place, and I've explained examples and the fallacy in those examples as I've posted them for both sets. While you've been a good tool for demonstrating all of this, I think this discussion has reached the point that anyone reading can make up their own minds with the data presented and doesn't need me to continue giving scenarios and examples that might bend data all over the place.

The only places left for this discussion to really go, aside from me having to repeat myself to you ad nauseum, is comparing other sets than fire/ice, and talking about IO builds. While I'm certainly capable of discussing both these things, I plain as hell don't want too. Especially not with you in the background, chirping nonsensically every other post.

I probably won't be responding to you again in the future, as I think the forum in general is onto your shenanigans and doesn't need someone like me to point them out anymore. Besides that, I have my mental stability to consider.

Okay so it was snappy after all. Oopsie daisy~

In short, I'm out. Have a good day, and good luck the next time you decide to argue with something that can do more than addition, I'm going back to the scrapper forum where people actually have intellectual conversation. I hope your next, inevitable, response to this is as humorous as all the others, for I will never know it's warm, fuzzy embrace.

Except that the chart I demonstrated allows even you to step in and make an oogled comparison. Even if you were to decide to start them at the same place the AR/Dev has still done comparable damage to you during your peak performance. During non-peak performance, AR/Dev is significantly ahead of you. As such, he's probably doing more damage than you overall, but I'm only guessing based upon the first chart.

I find it all kinds of hilarious that you cite me as bending the truth when you are the master of it. You started your entire argument on a series of assumptions taken out of any context, and all your examples thus far have done entirely the same, where as I have methodically laid down examples, bent to the rules you have set, and then demonstrating potential of an AR/Dev when bent to my own. I even took time to point out the flaws in your own arguments and how you might improve your playstyle, such as needing to mitigate damage, or that the ice secondary lacks long-term potential, or that rain of fire goes at the start, or that you shouldn't begin your combo at 40 feet when you have long range attacks that benefit more from DoT.

Yet you have the gall to sit here and call me a liar, all the while hiding under the guise that your just so intellectually superior that you cannot be bothered to actually argue back with anything but the pieces of information you have selected. I'm rather curious how that process works. Just what qualifications need to be met on something before you can respond to it? Let us into the ravaged and delusional world you live in, for mine is all sane and logical, and I'd rather like to rip it off the wall.

And once again you prove that you can only argue out of context. While my chart is assuming unslotted data, that was merely to offer me convenience during my calculations, obviously the majority of the players in this game are going to slot their attacks, and it is under a very noble assumption that I estimate they will be slotting their powers to maximize damage potential and hit their targets.

This new chart assumes your chain vs my own with all powers 3 slotted for damage, and the fire blaster enhanced by aim and build up. We are going to assume that all blasters are slotted for enough accuracy to hit their targets.



As you can see, AR/Dev is utterly kicking your *** now when played competently, and is still doing fairly comparable damage to you otherwise. Again, I want to stress that I have omitted the redraw for AR/Dev, as well as the travel time for the Fire Attacks. I consider this fair, but want to point out that the artificial time added from redraw is, god-willing, going to be fixed one day. You will always need to wait for your fireball to get to the spawn, however. Furthermore, we're also assuming that the Fire Blaster, is, as always, impervious to damage and thus not needing to use any sort of mitigatory powers that would increase how long his chain takes to complete.

I have purposefully left out TD thus far because, again, I was under the noble assumption that any blaster worth a damn would have enough accuracy to hit the things, but seeing as how nitpicking unimportant details is the only way you can pose an argument, I think I might try it myself. This coincides with my new goal of 'trying to get into your head to see just what the hell is going on', rather nicely.

Again, assuming SO slotting, AR/Dev gets yet another advantage in a long line of advantages from TD, because he does not need to slot as much for accuracy and is thus capable of spending those slots on other things such as recharge and enduranc. Whichever you pick, shooting faster or shooting more effeciently, the AR/Dev once again takes another step forward from the mediocrity of your Fire Blaster. Take note that TD buffs to not apply to Trip Mine, Time Bomb, or Gun Drone as they are all considered pets.

Let us also make notice that TD grants a 60% resistance to To-Hit debuffs, meaning that in a situation where accuracy debuffs are being applied, the AR/Dev is getting affected to a much smaller degree than everyone else, allowing him to hit targets far more effectively.

I don't know, why, when you first posted your example, did you assume all sorts of movement upon the AR/Dev, but allowed the Fire Blaster to start at optimal range? Hypocritical much?


That's great. I'm glad Task Forces are stupidly easy right now, but that doesn't dismiss the point. Any group of idiots with some AOE and a /Kin is fully capable of obliterating +0 and +1 enemies, thus you aren't really impressing anyone by being able to do it as well, especially considering your in game example comes from straight the hell out of nowhere with no equivalent comparison to anything

Yet you are somehow magically capable of of *not* having your damage lowered by higher level enemies? Is this kind of how you are able to be magically impervious to all damage?


At 5 seconds AR/Dev is doing way more damage than you as Fire Breath has not even been applied yet (F:0 AR:387.5) At 6.01s, the moment you use Fireball, you are still behind while the AR/Dev is jousting Flamethrower (F:335.8 AR:397.5). At 8.04 second, the moment you use Rain of Fire to "finish off the stragglers" you have caught up, and passed by, to/the AR/Dev significantly as your powers have had time to apply their DoT, while AR/Dev has been busy firing off Full Auto from wherever-the-hell away (F:552.45 AR:397.5). Or so it would seem. Full Auto is doing 104.06 damage a second during it's animation and applies 12.5 damage after 3.3 seconds. When you activate Rain of Fire has has had a little more than a second to apply his Full Auto damage (F:552.45 AR: 501.56). Again, Fire only needs a few more decimals of a second to apply it's full burny damage, so let's just give it to him (F:711.85 AR:501.56). After another 2 seconds AR/Dev begins catching up, but Rain of Fire is still going so we add that in as well, (F:772.15 AR:709.68), and after the entire 4 seconds (we're at a total elapsed time of 11.33 seconds, by the way) Full Auto has finished (F: 802.3 AR: 863.4).

During the 3 seconds Full Auto is animating, Fire can use Blaze and some other single target attack, but his AOE's will not have recharged assuming base recharge. Fire Breath will need 0.95 seconds more when 3 slotted for recharge while hasten is going for a total recharge of about 170%. The Fire Blaster would likely want to use Blaze and perhaps Flares and Fireblast. Blaze will need 4 seconds to apply it's full damage, and Flares/Fire Blast will not get the Build Up + Aim damage. Blaze+Rain of Fire will probably kill whatever enemy it's aimed at, but the Fire Blaster will need to wait the 4 seconds it takes for this to happen, so he might opt to speed things up with one of his other ST attacks, or just wait for his AOE's so his endurance can take a rest.

In a +0 or +1 spawn it's likely that if these two Blasters are together that everything is dead sometime during Full Auto's animation. After that the AR/Dev is pulling ahead because he can still throw Trip Mines around while the Fire Blaster is waiting for BuildUP+Aim+Rain of Fire to be awesome again.

So let's review:

@5.01s (F:0 AR:387.5)
@6.01s (F:335 AR:387.5)
@8.04s (F:552.45 AR:501.56)
@8.11s (F:711.85 AR:501.56)
@11.33 (F:802.3 AR:863.4)

Once again, it's important to stress that this chart assumes the Fire Blaster is magical and doesn't need to mitigate damage which would lengthen his chain. Given the level of the enemies being fought (+0 or +1) this normally ridiculous assumption is somewhat lessened to a degree, though not entirely.

They are comparable.

Agreed, Archery is rather awesome. I have a Archery/Fire that I rather enjoy.

That said, in order to call the entire set better I would need to do a comparison chart to an Archery chain like I did for Fire vs AR/Dev. Until then, such comments are purely subjective.

On the subject of Trip Mine having too small of a radius to hit all the enemies, and your general assumption that AR/Dev somehow has less AOE spread than Fire: Trip Mine has a radius of 16 feet, 12 feet for the fire damage. Fire Ball has a radius of 15 feet, which is more than and less than Trip Mine at the same time (woah man). Fire Breath has an arch 30 degrees, 15 degrees less than Flamethrower's 45, so it's going to be hitting even less target. Rain of Fire has a radius of 25 ft, and Full Auto's 20 degree cone is significantly widened by using it range.

As the rest of your argument is switching to an entirely different set, and thus a different argument, I'm not going to address it less you force me to compare an attack string to every single feasible blaster combination possible against AR/Dev. BillZBubba might be into that kind of thing, and may his demon overlords bless him for doing so, but I am not.

Except for this part:
vs

Bolded the part you took out of context to try and prove some sort of ignorance upon my character. I was not saying AR/Dev outperforms every set, but that it would if given BuildUP+Aim. /Devices doesn't have BU because Trip Mine is *very* powerful, and AR lacks Aim because some Developer (not devices~) decided I wanted Beanbag, or something, instead, which I'm only slightly grumpy about.

It's not the only time you've taken something out of context (you do it almost always), but I thought I'd point it out anyway.

This is taken out of context, and is an example to show where you can go. It is not saying Fire cannot do something similiar with IO's either, but is a simple argument in AR's favor. Furthermore, it's but a snippet of an entire post which spends much of it's time comparing the sets assuming equivalent slotting, but I don't expect you to quote any of that because it might require you to think overmuch.

BIG LETTERS MEAN THAT I'M SUPER DUPER SERIOUS GUYS

Obviously other Blasters can build for defense. Ignoring that /Dev can build for much higher values of defense over many more types for more easily, the point, which you demonstrate a willful desire to stay ignorant of, is that you cannot suddenly pull an IO'd out Blaster from your ***, throw up a random damage table with no equivalent AR/Dev or *anything* to compare it too, and declare that your set is the best because it has more recharge than an example where such things were *not* factored in.

You might as well be comparing a level 50 blaster to a level 20 defender.

Also, +0 or +1 is a pathetic demonstration of your mad damage skillz. But I can't really expect much for someone who doesn't even know how to play a set he's arguing for, as demonstrated by your backwards as hell chains and oblivious nature towards survival. I suppose fighting +0 enemies for so long would have distorted my ability to do anything significant as well, so I won't blame you too much in this regard.

As for farming crap at this low of a threat level, you can pretty much tape together anything with a couple of AOE's and a /Kin and blow through spawns. This isn't so much a demonstration that these dredges do awesome damage, but that their difficulty setting is so low they might as well be soloing.


While I am not going to stop anyone from giving AR/Dev Build up or Aim (assuming it didn't come at the cost of a power I liked, such as Trip Mine.), doing so would cause the set to become far more powerful than any other primary/secondary. As it is, Fire/Ice, when applied to a real world setting, is already doing fairly comparable damage to an AR/Dev while it has Build Up and Aim and even if they started at the same time and even if Fire/Ice had high enough defenses to just stand there without having to worry about mitigation. Considering this is 'FIRE' whose secondary effect is 'moar damage', that's kind of pathetic. When we take away Build Up and Aim from Fire/Ice, and Full Auto from AR/Dev, the amount of damage AR/Dev does OVER a Fire Blaster is significantly (more than twice as much) higher, even when Fire still has Rain of Fire, which should logically get taken away in this example as well.

The most I could see doing while still approaching an idea of balance is giving TD some, very small, persistent damage buff, and even that might be too much.

What really *needs* to be done is solving the redraw issue. That is the number one primary thing that kicks AR/Dev (or just AR in general) in the face.

*edit* - I suck at HTML

No, but that is usually when the allies arrive. This isn't a detriment to the AR/Dev and I've already explained why on numerous occasions. If your entire comeback is "Nuh uh!" then I'm going to go ahead and move on and ignore you whenever you bring it up again (and you will.)

You realize during your little example you never get hit, right? What level enemies are you fighting? Which defender is buffing you? How much defense does your build have? What are all your IO bonuses? Would you like to actually compare it to something other than our own imaginations?

Furthermore, going off my own chart, you are about at the part where you use Fire Ball, or 243 damage. The AR/Dev would be applying Flamethrower in about a second, at 209.7. This is assuming you're using Build Up, which you decided to cut off from your fancy log, mysteriously of course. Without Build Up+Aim, you're actually behind him in damage, assuming equivalent slotting.

However, just this part of your chain has taken you about five seconds. Again, looking at my chart, that means you have added about 2 seconds more, which is likely because it takes your powers time to travel, or because you don't have instant connection to the server, probably a combination of both. Assuming Build UP+AIm Activated imeadiately and you started in optimal range, you have been fighting for around 10 seconds at least . This says nothing for the fact that, if given equivalent recharge as the Blaster in your example, an AR/Dev would have *also* modified his attack structure similiar to how you have.

Would it seriously kill you to post results that aren't utterly skewed?

That's what I thought.

Even this misses the point. Not only did you not give me Full Auto while allowing your first chain to have Build+Aim, but you still refuse to grasp the concept that the AR/Dev has arrived way before the Fire/Ice has. If you really want to build a fair chart, based upon the activities of a competent AR/Dev, you need to not only post activation times, but when the Fire Blaster actually gets to the battle, and then compare how much total time has elapsed once both of them are finished with their Blast-Fu.

Furthermore, I didn't believe adding Activation Time's together was such a difficult process that it required demonstration. What's more, you already *did* it, so I don't know why I'd do it again afterward other than to show off my awesome addition skills.

However, since you're so insistent that we show our work, I'll go get around to 'later' now.


Omitted Data:

Something else to take note of is that most of the Fire attacks in this list need to take time to travel to the target, meaning you gain about a second or so depending on where it is you are standing. If you are right on top of the enemy the damage will be applied immediately, if not, you're gonna be waiting a small bit. Assault Rifle, on the other hand, has most of its' damage applied as soon as its' powers are activated. The only attacks that need to 'travel' in AR are M30 Grenade, Flamethrower, and Ignite, of which, in this example, only Flamethrower is being used.

The Fire Blast set is being calculated to be applying *all* the extra fire damage. It has an 80% chance to do so. However, the only power which has bonus fire damage in this chain is Fire Ball, so it's not a big deal. I just didn't feel like calculated chance. (I didn't feel like calculating the velocity of each power either and the excess time spent based upon distance either, so at very least I'm consistent~)

Redraw is not being calculated in this chart. Just add +2 after Trip Mine. I had sort of forgot about it by the time I finished and am too lazy to shift all the cells down, but energetic enough to write this sentence about it. (Consistency would be nice, wouldn't it?)

I think I only mentioned it once in my first, but the AR/Dev in these calculations is using Super Speed and Cloaking Device to achieve complete stealth. If you want to set up an Alpha Strike like I'm demonstrating with Super Jump you will need to either use a Smoke Grenade or have a Stealth IO somewhere. Using a Smoke Grenade will also add time to your chain.

Finally, and I know I keep mentioning it, putting Rain of Fire closer towards (or at) the start of this chain would *dramatically* increase the damage that the Fire Blaster is doing. Where it is now gives the AR/Dev a gigantic advantage.

(Slightly Snarky) Analysis

You'll notice that my chart includes the time when the Fire Blaster usually shows up, which is also when the rest of the team shows up. Note that it is not always perfect like this. Sometimes they show up a little earlier, later, and not at all. In the case of not at all it's very useful to have Flash Freeze/Snow Storm from the Cold Mastery pool with you so that your team isn't suffering from crazy blaster shenanigans.

Having an AR/Dev doing this on a team with a Fire/Ice blaster is both a blessing and a curse. The Fire Blaster and all Blasters benefit in that the enemies are already engaged when he gets there, and thus he can start in on his attack chain immediately. Where he suffers is that the enemies are already significantly damaged when he begins, meaning that much of his potential is going to be wasted. For a Fire Blaster who applies his secondary powers 'late' this is especially problematic.

In fact, the major problem with Fire Blast is that a good portion of its' damage is applied later than other Blasters. It's often the case that the Fire Blasters' target will be finished off by either another ally, or that it would be quicker for the Fire Blaster to apply another attack, which sort of trivializes the Fire Blasters 'bonus'.

For example, Fire Breath has an activation time of 2.67, but it takes a second after that for the damage to apply, and this is before even factoring in the distance away he is. While he can initiate another attack once Fire Breath is done animating it's going to be a full second at *close* range before the effect even starts taking place, and then it won't finish for another 2.1 seconds after that. This means that Fire Breath alone takes six seconds to fully apply.

Compare to Flamethrower, which begins applying Fire Damage as soon as the power reaches its' target. After the initial hit it will then apply the damage 7 more times over the course of 7.1 seconds, or every 1.014 seconds. The power will be finished after 9.43 seconds, a little more than 3 seconds after Fire Breath. However Flamethrower also has an angle of 45 degrees vs Fire Breaths' 30 degrees, meaning that Flamethrower will hit more targets. The two attacks are *far* more comparable than you seem to be inferring.

On the subject of Full Auto having a smaller cone, one must also remember that the power has a *much* longer range than most cone attacks, allowing it to hit many targets when at the proper distance. A single range enhancement brings Full Auto from a range of 80 ft to 100 ft, about 20 feet out of the range of most attacks. 2 Range Enhancement brings it to about 120 feet, which is still entirely possible because of it's higher accuracy on top of Targeting Drone. Optimal slotting for Range would probably be 2Damg/2Rech/2Range.

The way the two are utilized here best takes advantage of both Flamethrower's DoT and Full Auto's Range advantage. The major problem with Full Auto is that it roots you for 4 seconds and does very high damage, meaning enemies are more likely to attack you when you use it. After the Joust+Flamethrower, you should land far enough away that the enemies cannot hit you with many, if any, of their attacks, thus negating a large portion of the concern with Full Auto. Furthermore, the Trip Mine you set off is knocking much of the enemies' on their back, further mitigating damage. You want to be far away to maximize your damage potential anyway, so this tactic is a win/win.

Let's again compare to the Fire Blaster. In this example he has done nothing to mitigate the damage in any way. If he's with the AR/Dev he gets to benefit from the chaos and start his chain immediately, but his damage potential will be lower as the AR/Dev will have already applied damage to the enemies. In a team without the AR/Dev, the Fire/Ice Blaster will either need to use his secondary powers to control the spawn, cutting into his potential damage, wait for the Tank/Controller to control the spawn, cutting into his potential damage, or just go balls to the wall and begin firing, typically resulting in his death.

This chain in particular is especially dangerous for the Fire Blaster, as he opts to start with Fire Breath, which has a range of 40 feet, meaning the spawn has probably already started heading towards him before he has even fired off his first power. Chilling Embrace isn't doing much for him as the initial volley of attacks are out of the range of it's effects, and when the enemies *do* get in melee range their recharge being reduced won't have any significance until *after* they have all shoved their respective melee weapons into him. Sure it will be at -14% less damage, but that doesn't mean as much when he's already taken so much of a beating.

He can begin the fight with Ice Patch and Rain of Fire, but he is still going to run into problems. Ice Patch only has a 10 foot radius, which isn't usually enough to hit all the enemies. It slows their movement speed by 90%, and Rain of Fire will cap this at 100%, but that isn't going to stop them from using their ranged attacks to any degree. The knockdown is nice.

His other Option is to use Frozen Aura, but this only stops the minions, and requires melee range. No problem, we'll just stack that with Flash Freeze. Now everyone is nice and tidy... Except that he can't really use AOE's 'less he risk opening himself back up to his first problem, so, again, his potential damage is reduced. You really don't need Frozen Aura with Flash Freeze, however. Flash Freeze, while having a significantly longer recharge of 90s, can still be made just as permanent as Frozen Aura, doesn't require you to be in melee range, has a larger radius, a higher magnitude, a comparable activation time, and is available only 3 levels after you could have obtained Frozen Aura. Sure Frozen Aura can stack with itself after about 10 seconds to hit the entire spawn, including the boss, but that's still 10 seconds of letting the Lt's and Boss pound on you while you restrict yourself to single target attacks. Even then that's not much of a point, really, as the primary reason you'd want to be sleeping the enemies is so that you can separate the boss, and Flash Freeze fills that need far more efficiently.

Then there is Shiver, which is fairly competent. It understands that control powers are usually better when they aren't exposing your tender bits by having a range of 60 ft, and an inexcusably large cone of 135 degrees. You *will* hit everything you aimed it at for a powerful -Rech and -Run debuff. Still, Snow Storm tends to outclass it as well, with it's longer range of 80 feet, a very large radius of 25 feet, no accuracy check, and it's not asking you to reapply it every 12 bloody seconds. About the only mark you might pose against Snow Storm is it's high endurance cost, but calculating the amount of endurance you're using to reapply Shiver every 12 seconds reveals that Shiver is actually costing 0.86 end/s compared to Snow Storm's .67 end/s. FURTHERMORE (I only have one transition word, by the way), Snow Storm is only asking for some EndRedux and perhaps a MoveRedux, while Shiver wants Acc, EndRedux, and perhaps MoveRedux.

That leaves Ice with Freezing Touch, which isn't too bad. You need to be in Melee Range, but it has relatively quick recharge and the duration is pretty good. A boss has about 5 seconds once in melee range to apply damage after which he's pretty safely out of the fight. Assuming 3rech/3hold, you'd want to use it again every 15-16 seconds.

Cold Mastery still has Dull P- I mean Hoarfrost, Hibernate, and Ice Armor. Hoarfrost is a large heal and a large boost to HP, which is very useful for a Blaster who typically has neither. Ice Armor grants about 16% S/L defense when slotted up, which when combined with other powers can build your defense values up in a hurry. More on this later. Hibernate is crap, and I don't like you if you take it.

All of this is not to say that /Ice is bad in of itself. It provides fairly decent mitigation as you're leveling up. The problem is that at 41 any blaster can get comparable, if not better, mitigation, so why sacrifice their secondary when they could have chosen something more useful?

You might argue that you can just pick another epic, but they don't really offer much for an Ice Blaster. Stacking holds can be useful, but Freezing Touch recharges fast enough that you probably wouldn't need too. Resistance is okay but rendered useless by any mez attacks. Do you need more AOEs? Perhaps someone else can enlighten me, but I can't find much use for the other Epics.

With the Ice Pool the Blaster has to spend much of his time sporadically attempting to keep enemies in place from retaliation, which doesn’t leave much time for attacking. He definitely isn’t going to be using the attack chain you provided and living.

While still on the subject of mitigation, it’s useful to note that AR/Dev has the potential to build far more defense than Fire/Ice can, which is incredibly instrumental in surviving more difficult challenges (if that’s your thing), or when using bad attack chains that seem devoid of real world context. Ice Armor provides a rather substantial building point for S/L defense, and when combined with Maneuvers, Weave, Smoke Grenade, and Cloaking Device put you around 39% S/L defense, and 22.4% to everything else without ever having to even touched IO’s. Devices is accounting for 10.4% of this, about 22% of the total defense you need to soft cap. Any other secondary is going to need to find this defense through IO’s, which puts them at a particular disadvantage, and even after that it’s very unlikely they are going to they are going to raise their defense against as many types as AR/Dev can. At best they would likely settle on either S/L or Defense. Such high level of defense can be useful when you want to do stupid things such as beginning your attack chain 40 feet away from a group sized spawn before using mitigation moves of any kind, and for taking on higher level challenges.

My own projected AR/Dev build (expensive), at the time of this writing, has 45.4% S/L, 42.47% Ranged, and 30.5% AOE, with 160% recharge, and all significant powers (as declared by myself). Just an example to show where you can *go* with AR/Dev.

Your initial proposed attack chain was bad, does inferior damage, and offers no means of mitigation. It is so removed from reality or competence that it’s difficult to take you seriously. While you may consider jumping around the mission and possessing sentient awareness of when to leave the group to apply tactics silly, it is a far better and more effective strategy than “stand here and pretend I’m invisible.”


I can't promise you I'll keep replying to you for much longer. Masochistic tendencies aside, this is taking up too much of my time and I'm not really enjoying it anymore.

*Edit* -Fireball is supposed to read:

147.8 + 3*9.38 over 2.1s (0.5s delay)

*skeptical eyebrow* I'll assume yours is bigger because you insist on adding in movement, which isn't a problem if your jumping around.

The point was that it your method for measuring them how you were was inaccurate because of their starting positions. AR gets to start earlier, so the casting time on Trip Mine is less severe.

I would consider the redraw to be the biggest annoyance for AR because there's nothing you can do to get around adding it in. 2 (1 second to draw the weapon, another to stand there like a slack jawed idiot trying to remember how the bloody thing works) or so seconds every time I need to reach into my utility belt is a ****ing chore.

Except that in this case your movement is taken care of during your animation. By the Time Full Auto finishes the enemies should be nicely on your *** again, which is why you'd want to use Buckshot to knock them back and *hope* your team has arrived. Otherwise you'll probably die.

You can use Trip Mine in a team scenario, but it demands you really know what you're doing and what all the enemies are doing. I find it easier to pull off with Controllers rather than Tankers because Tankers can't stop AOE's being fired at them every half second, which usually means I need to get behind the outer rim of his new buddies to set it off.

And after all this you still have to redraw your damn weapon again.

Their entire ranged arsenal does not have this huge reach you are describing. Between the KB and the distance you will have mitigated enough damage for this to be viable, which I only know because I've done it.


Blaze's damage is over a 4 second period, which cuts down it's DPS quite a bit. I figured you were using it on the boss though. What I'm *not* sure of is how you've managed to survive this long when you started from 40 feet away.

Slug and Burst aren't bad attacks at this point in the chain. With any recharge Buckshot should be making an appearance again as well. Most of the time, however, the AR/Dev would be leaving to go set up the Alpha for the next spawn while the rest of his team cleans up.

He's applying a different tactic. That doesn't mean he isn't contributing the damage, and without the rest of the team he can't apply the Alpha and forget. Not without Flash Freeze, anyway. Starting earlier doesn't stop him from being part of the team.

So, what, you're planting a flag in the discussion and declaring yourself the winner? If only I had thought of that first.

Reread Jousting Examples/How stealth works.

Maybe later. It would require I build a giant DPS table and I don't really feel like whipping out the spread sheets for all the various situations I can think of. It would likely involve Trip Mine -> Flamethrower(Joust) -> Full Auto(100 ft)->Buckshot-> then evaluate the situation to either stay and do more damage, or go to the next group.

You won't be able to use Full Auto every spawn because of it's recharge though, so you'll need to mix in some other AOE's such as m30 Grenade and the like. I would typically build for enough recharge so as not to need m30 grenade though as it's knockback with Trip Mine can get excessive.

Full Auto has a very long range, which greatly makes up for it's narrow cone. This is why it's usually optimal to use during or after the joust. 1 range enhancement let's you use Full Auto from 100 ft away, otherwise 80. Either way, when so far away your chances of getting hit are very slim.

Complications arise mostly when within a tight corridor, which is why you would sometimes want to use Full Auto over Flamethrower; Because you won't have LoS after your jump.

However, the whole *point* of Jousting is that you move *while* shooting, so factoring in the time it takes to move from place to place is inaccurate.

I actually did read your second example. My concern in the second example is that you make the assumption that AR/Dev needs to use a mitigation move, but make no such assumptions about Fire/Ice. I'm supposed to just beleive you can throw all that fire at the enemies and they will kindly wait for you to finish, never retaliating in the slightest. If you actually read my post you might be aware of this.

FA = Distance = Mitigation.

Oh, good thing that's all the mitigation you'd ever need. In that case, my AR/Dev should be perfectly fine just taking Toughness and Caltrops/Snow Storm, right?

50% of what? Trip Mine is a Mag 2.08 KB; That's knocking people over save KB resistance.

*Edit* You meant chance. 50% is still a large number considering you are going to be out of range very soon.

Which has what to do with AOE vs Single Target?

*rolls eyes* Enough of them. Happy now?


60 seconds. 30.1 with 99% recharge, 22.3 with Hasten. You won't be using it after every Trip mine, but you *will* be setting up that Alpha regardless, so the point still stands. A Fire Blaster is going to be wasting his build up if a competent AR/Dev is with him because the AR/Dev is going to be applying damage before he gets there, and doesn't need to wait for the enemies to be held down to do so.


Still seems like a waste of DPS. You might as well use ST attacks.

On that note, Full Auto + Chance for Knockdown is pretty sexy as well.

I have to insist that you are playing Ar/Dev wrong. Fire/Ice looses much of it's DPS in having to set up it's controls, where as Ar/Dev can initiate combat immediately after Trip Mine. If we're going into the IO game /Dev has a rather giant advantage in Smoke Grenade+Maneuvers+Ice Armor in that he can very easily build for defense without sacrificing much recharge to do so.

I also think /Ice looses a lot of it's charm at 41 when the Ice Epic can basically replace the entire thing without much fuss. I suppose /Ice could just pick another Epic, or none at all, but the others seem very 'meh' in comparison.

How is this really a fair comparison? You can put up any blaster Primary in front of Fire Blast and declare that it has inferior DPS because Fire Blast primarily excels in that regard. It's also weird that you mention AR having too many AOE's in comparison to ST, and then throw it up against Fire Blast, which only has one more ST attack than AR, and that's Blaze which requires you to be on top of the enemy to utilize. Which is not to say that the argument is wrong, just that your example is wonky.

Any AR/Dev worth his salt isn't waiting around to clean up the mob after his volley of AOE's. He should be leaving for the next spawn to set up a bomb to maximize his damage potential. Using the Jousting Technique, the spawn should already be heavily damaged by the time the rest of the team arrives. If you really wanted to calculate the time elapsed fairly, the AR/Dev should be starting *after* he has blown everyone to pieces, not after. Furthermore, why do we just assume that the Fire Blaster is already in optimal range for everything, but count the amount of time it takes for the AR/Dev to move around? Such a calculation is obviously going to become one-sided when done in this method.

I also find it strange that you mention Full Auto rooting you being a concern for damage while leaving out the fact that the second you start this AOE Dervish your Fire Blaster is going to be receiving hell from the spawn. Unless you wait for the Tanker or Controller to lock down the enemies you put yourself at great risk. Sure, you can get them under control with your secondary as well, but you must either wait to use your chain, have a high defense build, or risk dying during the returning Alpha Strike. Either way, you are cutting into your DPS to secure the mobs. Meanwhile your second example of AR is disingenuous by assuming that it needs to throw out protection abilities such as caltrops while Fire Blast doesn't have to do anything. Again, you've tilted the results in Fire Blasts favor.

AR/Dev doesn't really have this problem as he begins combat by knocking everyone on their ***. If you then joust Full Auto or Flamethrower you are going to be far away from any retaliatory fire. Even if you don't you can then fire off buckshot or m30 grenade to again put everyone on their butts and then use whichever of your cone attacks you didn't use after the Trip Mine. The AR/Dev is going to be able to pull ahead in damage in this regard because he's already softened/killed much of the spawn before the rest of the time even arrived. 'Ol Fire Blaster probably isnt' going to load Build-Up and unleash hellfire when so much of his damage would be wasted after the AR/Dev has handled the situation in a much quicker and safer manner than he is capable.

Finally, while Build Up + Aim is a very nice combo, it has a 90 second recharge. Without throwing IO's into the mix, the lowest you can get this down is 30 seconds with Hasten, which also isn't going to be up 100% of the time. Unless you're willing to wait 30-45 seconds between spawns, AR/Dev is going to pull ahead by being able to make alpha strikes all over the map in relative safety.


If I had to cite one major problem with AR/Dev it would be the weapon redraw, which can begin to be problematic when you need to switch between Dev powers and AR powers.

*EDIT* Also, Rain of Fire's damage potential is greatly wasted at the end of the chain, but you'd have to set up some sort of control ability if you wanted to use it at the start of the battle which would probably cut into your DPS. I only mention it because after running the numbers the DPS for fire in comparison to AR is very close because of when RoF is used.