Unthing

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Would Rage & 1 acc in each attack be fine for PvP? since I don't really want to slot 2 accs

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3 slotted Rage + 1 ACC would cap your to hit against people with no defence. However you would only have about a 65% to hit chance against defence based sets.

2xACCs would give you about an 85% vchance to hit against defence sets.

This assumes about 30 defence.

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@Hammerfall[ QUOTE ]
"I find your lack of faith .. disturbing"

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What lack of faith?

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Duh. Thats a Darth Vader quote.

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I know. But surely you should aim that quote at someone like diarsskate who doesn't have faith in telekinesis.

@diarsskate [ QUOTE ]
Well i didnt find a good use for it yet. Especially as Mind/TA. When you have EMP and Total Domination. The pushback can be very annoying and 1.5 Energy i mostly cant spare in an exhausting battle. Though, could think there is a good use for it.

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I find that the only time I ever run out of endurance is when I use it and that takes an entire battle.

I tend to use it whenever I see a suitable corner to push the enemies to.I haven't got total domination or EMP arrow yet.

@Hammerfall[ QUOTE ]
"I find your lack of faith .. disturbing"

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What lack of faith?

Yes.

I have telekinesis on my Mind/TA controller. I really like it.

Why is it that I'v hardly ever seen it in game apart from when I'm playing? Is it because Mind controllers are rare or is it because it is a fiddly power to use?

Invincibility is a pretty good taunt aura. But a taunt aura is no good when you are only affecting self.

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Psi counters most of your cons (the range is better, it's got a lot better control) but suffers from if you hit a psi-resistant enemy, you're screwed.

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Psi also has better damage overall than archery and shorted animation times ( if you exclude the first power ).

Sonic will probably archery too because of the stacking -res, it has similar animation times and far better control than archery.

Archery really isn't that great, the only real advantage it has is that it has the most powerful single target non-snipe blast for defenders, although the single target attack chain is better than both Energy and Electricity.

Well done Weasel!

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(and tactical retreats)

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When bad pulls are made or you find yourself in over your head its a lot better to back off and return rather than all die but because some heroes are completely thick and dont know when to fallback and sooner lay around wondering whose got an awaken or enjoy a nice scenic trip from the hospital all well within the time which the mission could of been done or with certainly less debt to work off its hard to get people to back off before you.

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This is one of the things that really annoys me, when I know that we are in over our head and should retreat and shout "RUN!" most people in pickup groups completely ignore me. Given that I try and leave 10-20 seconds for them to leave before I run, if they don't you get a team wipe.

Blasters certainly do better burst damage. I think that without Build Up and Aim a scrapper and blaster might be around the same for sustained DPS. Add Build Up and Aim and I think blasters probably have the edge.

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Taunt aura holds 10 so after the tanker has herded 17 (a blaster can hit upto 16 at once so thats good xp/time), 7 can quickly come for you

[/ QUOTE ]Chilling embrace applies instantly and lasts a while, with a bit moving around you can keep 17 foes with it.

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It won't be applied instantly. It will be at best a 1 second or 0.5 second tick rate, which I think it is and it makes it one of the better auras. The 10 target applies per tick, so yes with moving around you could in theory get 17. I'd like to see that done though, it would be interesting to watch.

I'm not sure how long the actual taunt duration is, it may be as long as the debuff ( about 5 seconds or so IIRC ) but I suspect it isn't.

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to pose a similar, but slightly different question to the original...

i'm planning to be rolling an ice/ice tank to duo with an ice/ice blaster in the near future. obviously i plan on grabbing chilling embrace, but do people think that taunt would be particularly valuable in such a team? throwing it into the mix at the earliest oppourtunity has me expecting to get my second damage dealing power by level 18. i know that i'm not there to throw the hurt around, but that seems like i won't be carrying my weight much.

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I normally get the level 4 attack power at level 4 and taunt at level 10 for a tank. This means you have to leave glacial armour or stamina until level 22. Most tanks only start being able to dish out the damage in the 30s. That's why you are teaming with a blaster.

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obviously a spread-out team tackling a few spawns simultaneously after everything goes to hell needs a tank who can taunt to try and pull everything into order, but if we're likely standing shoulder to shoulder as he blapps and i tank can i be confident that punchvoke and CE will see us through and keep the aggro on me?

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If it is next to you yes. Chilling Embrace is very good at that. So long as the blaster know to run to you when in trouble you should both be fine. However taunting also speeds up corner pulling ( corner pulling with just Chilling embrace takes a while ), which for the duo you suggest would be a good idea as it would allow the blaster to use Frost Breath more effectively.

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Lost: Combat Jump, Super Jump, Focused Accuracy and Conserve power.

Got: Super speed, Maneuvers, Tactics and Vendeance.

How would this affect my scrapper?

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Maneuvers is about the same as CJ for def.
Tactics is worse than FA for accuracy.

The combined end cost is much less after the change. I think 1 slotted end reds in Maneuvers and Tactics cost about the same as FA 3 slotted for end reduction.

In the choice between Assault and Maneuvers, I'd be tempted to go for Assault. It needs less slots and provides 5% extra damage for all rather than about 3% extra survivability. Because it helps the whole team a 5% increase in damage means you have to last 5% less time in danger, although for a regen this isn't really a good argument.

As for how much accuracy you need ... what are you trying to hit?

For standard PvE 3 slotted To hit buff FA + 1 ACC is overkill. 3 slotted To hit buff FA + 2 ACCs is completely excessive.

Both are capable of hitting anything you would ever see in your own mission short of a MoG'ed PP.

Tactics + 1 ACC is better than just 2 ACCs in your powers. I had it on my scrapper and I was happy with it. I ditched it when I got FA slotted though.

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These are suggestions, not criticisms.
Nice Build!

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Thanks, I have to rethink my sloting.

End cost.. mm. are this correct base values?
Toggle Costs Calculator

-0.08 Combat Jumping
-0.22 Hover
-0.77 Integration
-0.45 Maneuvers
-0.375 Stealth
-0.53 Super Speed
-0.23 Tough
-0.27 Weave

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I'm pretty sure Integration is more like 0.3.
Super speed is less htan that too, it is about 0.26.
Tough and Weave are the same at about 0.3.

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It seems that Combat Jump doesn't need endurance recuction at all. Other hand Integration seem to use a lot of endurance. Anyone knows what's the base value for Focused accuracy?

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It is around 1.2 end per second. So you really need to 3 slot it for end reducers.

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One Endurance reduction SO would drop Integration -0.58, 2 -0.46 and 3 -0.39

Also how much effects one attack speed increase does in attack powers?

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It means the recharge is 75% of the base. However it has less effect if hasten is up.
Similarly an end reducer will mean it costs 75% of the base.

Herobuilder is moderately accruate, but more importantly it is constantly updated.

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Nowt wrong with punchvoke indeed. But I can happily swallow 100% aggro with Chilling Embrace and taunt and never need punchvoke.


[/ QUOTE ]Or you can get away with chilling embrace and punchvoke and never be able to grab aggro at range or kite AV's.

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Edited for Accuracy.

[/ QUOTE ]Even if I will take taunt, you will NOT see me kiting AV's, it's just silly. Also, fire epic quite easily allows taking aggro at range.

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Fire epic is not as good as taunt. Fire Blast and Char do not have area effects, they only taunts the target and Fireball has a very long recharge ( 30 seconds or so ). Neither are capable of perma-taunting ranged opponents in quite the same way as Taunt. Also you can only get Fireball at level 47.

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Don't put a range in TP Friend.
3 Range, 2 End Rdx in Teleport
2/2/2 for AB
3 End mod in Recovery Aura, not 2
3 Heal in Reg Aura, not 2
2/2/2 for Fortitude.


[/ QUOTE ]Recall friend needs range in shadow shards, eden trial, and IP.

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Out of curiousity how many?
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Fortitude has a BIG ToHit buff, no point putting more than 1 ToHit in it.

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The buff is so much ( 25% IIRC ) that it pretty much caps anyone's to hit against purple minions unless they have really silly slotting. If someone is so low level that they need it for the to hit buff, they are probably going to need the defence more. I wouldn't even slot it with one.

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Nowt wrong with punchvoke indeed. But I can happily swallow 100% aggro with Chilling Embrace and taunt and never need punchvoke.


[/ QUOTE ]Or you can get away with chilling embrace and punchvoke and never need taunt

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Or you could use Chilling Embrace, punchvoke and taunt and be a better aggro controller.

For my I7 build on Unthing I was originally going to be more defensive and get the fighting pool. However the build was so tight that I jacked it in and went for a offensive build that I'm really happy with.

I think good use of the regen set is all you actually need. In fact Dull Pain outshines all the extra defensive powers you are talking about.

The most you can get from CJ, Tough and Weave is about 25% extra survivabilty. I'm pretty sure a scrapper AoE attack gives a better survivability bonus than that. Divine avalanche is far better than that for survivability.

However if you have all the attacks you need and have them fully slotted, I would suggest Dr Rocks AT comparison program. With Instant Healing and MoG off add in CJ, Tough and Weave with various slotting.

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If yoyu consider Gauntlet as "Punchvoke"... i.e I hit things to make them hit me, its kinda sucky but helps.

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I think of it as this.

It is good because unlike the Taunt Auras, you control the timing of it.

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Hehe. Before this post I didnt even know invun tanks had auras.
AS for gauntlet. Doesn't it suck just as much as defiance suck for blasters?

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No. It sucks solo, as it has no value, but so does vigilance.

It allows you to attract the attention of an enemy and the enemies immediately surrounding him by hitting him. This ensures that ( if they are melee enemies ) they will be ensnared by your aura.

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1. Risk vs Reward... Clearly blasters do far worse out of this than scrappers. I do mean clearly. Everybody I know who has played both will agree with this, no matter how skilled you are.

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This is the case 95% of the time. The only situation where I've found it isn't is sometimes verses Nemesis on large teams. The blasters can keep back, the tank[s] are fine. The scrappers can have a hard time as they get AoE spill from the tanks. That's the only time when range is defence.

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2. Solo vs Team. To my mind, the penalty for being easy to solo should be you are less valuable to teams (not by a lot mind). This clearly is the case for fenders, trollers, and tanks vs scrappers, but there dosent seem to be any meaningful difference in value when a team chooses a scrapper or blaster for damage output. And yet, scrappers are far easier to solo than blasters.

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That is because most blasters shy away from AoEs. A Fire/Fire blaster on the right team will do more damage than most scrappers. Scrappers suffer from having less powers, each of the powers is lower Brawl index but lower recharge and end cost. However scrappers do about 20% more base damage ( including criticals ). If you ignore AoEs the only edge I can see blasters having is that they have access to both Aim and Build Up and Nukes.

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The whole thing is pretty screwed up if you ask me. Now I may get flamed by a load of protesting scrappers but please only do so if you have actually played both scrappers AND blasters.

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I have 2 high level scrappers:
A Dark/Dark who hasn't teamed with a blaster for ages because he is on a [ir]regular superteam.
A Spines/Regen.

The Spines/Regen is clearly too good. I think the problem is that Spines is too good for AoEs and the ability to pick up an extra one at level 47 just seals the deal. He has 2 cones, a PbAoE and a damage aura. On top of that he has a decent single target attack chain. Spines also has some of the best secondary effects in the game. DoT, -recharge, -speed. That's the same as Fire and Ice blaster sets combined.
The Dark on the other hand only has a Cone AoE attack and has endurance problems.

I have 2 blasters: Ice/Dev and Fire/Fire. The Fire/fire can pull off about the same devastation as the Spines scrapper on the right team. There is a huge level difference though.

The Ice/Dev and the Dark/Dark are quite comparable too. The Ice can do a bit more AoE damage. Both have control, the scrapper probably has a touch more. They are about the same level.

I would go
1) Temp Inv * 3 Slot at 3.
1) Gash
2) Dull Pain * 6 Slot by early teens
4) Beheader/Chop or RPD. Probably Beheader.
6) Travel power prerequisite
8) Unyielding * Slot slowly, but by the mid 30s
10) Taunt
12) Swift or Hurdle depending on travel power / preference.
14) Travel Power
16) Health * 3 Slot at 17.
18) Invincibilty * 3 Slot at 19
20) Stamina * 3 Slot at 21
22) Resist Physical Damage or a 2nd attack
24) 3rd attack, pool choice ( perhaps CJ, Hasten ) or Resist energies
26) Tough Hide * 3 Slot at 27.
28) Whirling Axe

I am assuming you aren't going for the fighting pool. The fighting pool is how you make a really tough Inv tank, but it eats up slots and endurance so isn't to everyones liking. If you were get Boxing/Kick at 22, tough at 24 and Weave at 30. Tough makes RPD a luxury rather than a necessity.

Fly or Teleport are not the best travel powers for a tank. Hasten and Combat jumping are better prerequisites than Hover or Recall Friend/Tp Foe. Air Superiority is a good power but for you will cause a weapon redraw.

Hasten will improve the recharge of Dull Pain, which is really one of your most important powers. It also makes the slow recharge of your axe attacks more bearable.

Combat Jumping adds a little bit of defence ( Melee, Ranged, Samsh, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Energy and Negative Energy ). This is useful as it stacks with Tough Hide and Invincibility. It also provides good combat maneuvarability.

@Cognito
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Personally I dont trust tanks without taunt. Aside from the fact it impairs aggro pick up (It just does ok? No getting away from it! ).

I know good tanks can manage fairly effectively without it (with the exception of flying/ranged foes like the cabal and fofr AVs), but my anxiety comes from the psychology of taking it.

If I see a tank with taunt I am always somewhat reassured that he/she sees it as his job first and foremost to save people and take aggro.

As its one power, works well with one slot - its auto hit, fast recharge, no end cost, I am very nervous about a tank without it, because of what it suggests about the psychology of the tank.

Please bear in mind this is not always true - but it has been a pretty good indication of the tank from my experience.

However, as an invun tank, I dont think you really have much choice but to take it at level 10. You could possibly respec it out once you have invincibility at level 18 (although I wouldnt advise it).

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I pretty agree with this whole post. If a tank has taunt they are more likely to be look at my health bars than a tank who hasn't.

Tanks with no aura completely annoy me. Unless they are fantastically good at Gauntlet they really add very little to the team.

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I'm not sure I'm right, but from what I saw earlier in the thread.. mito's weren't cleared? Why?

I know I'm a Hamidon n00b and never actually fought him, but from strategies I've read, clearing the mito's was one of the most important things to do.

What were the benefits in trying to do it without doing this?

(Just out of interest, as I've never heard of this tactic being implemented before)

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Sorry to bump this but I know how posts can get lost in big threads and I'm really interested to know, if anyone can tell me?

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Okay. Last time we didn't clear them. Basically it meant that we didn't spend hours killing them. The last raid took about 2-3 hours.

The advantage is that we only spend time defeating Hamidon. The disadvantage is that we get blasted by the mitos so we need a thicker healing blanket == more lag. Much of that Healing blanket comes from Transfusion from the Kin cell, which also provides a -regen effect. However now that Hami attacks when held we are going to get blasted anyway. More lag means that actually fighting takes more real time, but probably the same amount of server time.

Fundamentally this raid failed because we attacked too soon when Hami wasn't held, not because Mito-ignoring doesn't work, as we proved last time.

However I think that Mito-ignoring requires better timing than Mito clearing. I imagine that it the case as you have to get the first part of the healing blanket deployed after the suicide drop of the taunting team but before they run out of awakens. In order to get the healing blanket deployed the Phantom Armies have to have aggro of the Mitos.

You should never have to choose between unyielding and taunt.

For Inv I'd say the must have powers are Temp Inv at 1, Dull Pain at 2, Unyielding at 8, Taunt at 10 and Invincibilty at 18.

That means you have the choice of 2 or the 3 of a second attack, Resist Physical Damage or Stamina at 20 rather than 22.