Turbo_Ski
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Posts
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Quote:On bigger teams the likelyhood of having capped damage is very high since +tohit, +dmg, and +def are the most common buffs around. It's a pretty common scenario as team size increases.Originally Posted by Frosticus
In many cases you are looking at things like a defender supplying 7.5% more res debuff than a corr.
7.5*8 = 60% more force mulitplaction that a corrs "higher" damage will need to make up for. That typically won't happen until you are exceed the defender damage cap and into the realm of the higher corruptor ceiling.
on teams with very little support buffs/debuffs flying around, I would be inclined to agree, but buffs/debuffs have a far lower ceiling on when they become obsolete than raw damage. In a most extreme example, 8 rad corrs have the same protection and benefits as 8 rad defenders but still deal far more damage as a team. Thing is that each support set tends to specialize too much in one effect, that they tend to lose value when that effect is already capped or near capped, at which point raw damage trumps support advantages. FF and Dark tend to be the worst offenders in these cases but it happens to Kinetics and some other sets as well.Quote:In any event, they are pretty interchangable, similar to brutes and scrappers there are some combos that shine more for the particular AT, but at the end of the day most teams are going to really struggle seeing the difference if you sub one in for the other.
not really, Sonic will still be king for Defenders because of the higher res debuff value.Quote:The notable exception is fire blast. It is vastly superior for dealing damage and even when defs get it they won't have a triple scourging rain of fire that checks scourge every tick capable of bringing entire spawns down. -
I would only high-five the D-man if I get to keep his hand...so no I did not high-five the D-man.
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Uh this happens whenever any NEW set is released. I guess you weren't around for hordes of VEAT heavy teams on red side when those were initially released or how they dropped significantly numbers after a few weeks of being out.
Also demon summoning is kind of an extra special case, since it has been one of the most requested sets since CoV beta, more so than Dual Pistols which only became rabidly requested after Thugs were released. -
Quote:Debatable I think. Really depends on how much control is in the primary since Freeze Ray + rad debuffs negates a lot of anchor and mez problems right off the bat. I would agree with your case on Fire/Rad vs Fire/Dark, but not so with Ice/Rad vs Ice/Dark.Originally Posted by Suichiro
Dark is superior to Rad for soloing for three major reasons. First, it has more mez, meaning you can lock down annoying mobs. Secondly, most of it's debuffs stick around even if you're mezzed, which often happens when you're playing solo. Lastly, it has a pet at high level, which also spams control, debuff and healing. It's like having a mini team all on your own.
Rad is fantastic, though the moment you get mezzed and your toggles go down, you're toast. Eventually, everyone runs out of BFs.
As for the topic, Rad, Kin, and Dark are typically the solo favorites right out of the door, but TA, Cold, Storm, and Traps can do some amazing things later on that put the early bloom sets to shame. Comes down to preference though, I for one get bored soloing with sets that give you all the "essentials" right out the door, since they tend to leave nothing to look forward to and don't promise much change in playstyle later on either. -
Corruptors will have the damage edge simply because of higher cap and higher base damage in most cases. The exceptions are almost exclusive to sets like Radiation Emition and Kinetics where there is a massive difference in offensive benefits defenders receive compared to what a corruptors would get.
Personally I still think Corruptors compliment a team far better than a defender. Sure their support numbers aren't as good, but their damage/support values end up being a lot more balanced out without overshooting buff/debuff caps too much. For example, a single kinetics defender can damage cap a team where it would take 2 kinetic corrs to do so, but the 2 kinetic corrs bring more damage to the team than 2 kinetic defenders. As the team gets bigger and more varied in abilities, the value of the corruptor shines brighter than the defender.
in most cases,
Solo: Defenders = Corruptors
small teams: Defenders > Corruptors
big teams: Defenders < Corruptors -
Hell on Earth is great once you get 3 recharge slotted. Out of the box it ends up being an "oh crap" button due to it's long recharge. The pets it spawns are essentially tiny Fire Imps (like the fire control power).
Haven't gotten my 2nd tier 2 demon or my 3rd tier demon yet, but the 3rd tier 1 (hellfire imp) has the same effects as your whip attacks fire/toxic with -res debuff. Honestly the -Res in the hellfire attacks and the whip attacks is this set shines best, the bonus fire and ice damage from other pets is just icing on the cake.
quick lowdown of what I know my current pets are doing with first upgrade:
- Fiery Imp; fire shield, 2 fire ranged attacks, claw attack
- Ice Imp; ice shield, 2 Ice attacks, claw attack
- Hellfire imp; fire shield?, 2 hellfire (fire/toxic -res) attacks, claw attack
- Fiery Demon; fire shield, casts Ember shield on player and other pets, Fire breath, fire blast, Cauterize (heal other pet)
EDIT: running as DS/Thermal here. at lvl 24 currently. -
been gone for 6 months, but honestly not surprised they gave defenders a damage buff. Support sets are far too varied in effect to match any conceivable inherent.
my opinion in short, better inherent, base damage buff probably too high for solo and scaling could use adjusting, FF still going to lack in a balanced or defensive heavy team. -
Well considering Kheldians were denied status protection outside of dwarf form, and VEATs only got it because most of them are very melee oriented. Blasters only can use their first two blasts while mezzed because that is necessary for Defiance to keep function instead of shutting down completely.
However there is no specific need for status protection on defenders really at all as far as design goes, since defenders are a very ranged specific AT and blast sets almost all have a ST hold/stun to mitigate problematic mezzers.
If vigilance gets revamped it would have to be either +damage focused or be accompanied by a base damage increase and rebalance the end cost reduction and add something else in like +recharge or increase base damage and add in some sort of click team buff you build up to with blasting. -
You miss the point because the devs don't balance base damage around the presence of -res/+dmg powers in sets. EATs are proof of this with warshade's doublemire+eclipse being considered balance with the same mod as PBs and Arachnos Soldier's venom grenade being considered balanced with the same mod as widows get. Including enervating field and accelerated metabolism in your calculations blows all creditability you might have on the issue, because you're making the assumption every support set has the same balanced +25% dmg buff and -30% res debuff opportunities.
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You totally missed the point of the debate. No one is saying that defender support is too low, we're saying defender damage is too low compared to Corruptors and Controllers. The support values are fine where they are, but the damage values aren't an adequate tradeoff for the higher support values when you compare it to what corruptors and controllers get.
You also seem to forget that damage is a form of mitigation in an of itself adds to the total support overall, which is the reason corruptors are currently superior for a team because the damage gap is simply that large. The gap is even larger when controllers are compared. Raising defender damage mod to 0.8 and corruptors to 0.9 would solve this issue without stepping on any other AT's toes. -
Quote:Sorry but defender's sonic blast doesn't need a buff in it's debuff value, if anything it needs a reduction since it is clearly overpowered compared its alternatives (other defender blasts). Also going and applying a -res debuff to every blast power is a development time-sink compared to just raising the AT damage modifier.Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
One suggestion I would have for the Defender Inherent is to give EVERY Secondary attack a -10% Res debuff. Then up Sonic's to -30%. Sonic would still be the best at damage, but at least the other sets would have some of Sonic's usefulness.
Heck, do the same for Corruptors. It matches their concept, they help the whole team do more damage, and it wouldn't be the same as a straight damage buff, as it has to build up over time. Like a weaker form of Scourge. -
Quote:Powers do matter for Power balancing but not AT balancing. AT Balancing relates to modifiers and inherents and doesn't look at any power scalars. Power balancing focuses on the scalars and how balanced they are amongst themselves using the common modifiers derived from AT balancing.Originally Posted by Luminara
And it is part and parcel of AT balance. That is why different ATs have different scales on the same powers. And those different scales do affect how similar ATs are balanced against one another.
You're welcome to PM Castle and ask him if he disregards power scales when he's looking at AT balance. You know he'll tell you the same thing.
And that effectively kills the entire rest of your post, because it's all founded on the assumption that powers don't matter, so I'm still waiting for someone to do a detailed comparison, combination by combination, of controllers and defenders to show what the average is for each AT, what the high end is for each AT and what the low end is for each AT, and prove conclusively, numerically, that defenders are not performing as well on average, at the high end and at the low end, as controllers.
Are you taking on that task?
You don't however look at fulcrum shift or enervating field and base the modifier around such powers existing. Such an act is working backwards and utterly destroys any hope for balance. -
Quote:Just because you buff something doesn't mean you have to nerf something in return. Defender buff modifiers are fine as is, their damage modifiers however are far too low.Originally Posted by Folonius
This is it in a nut shell .... Defenders are not underpowered, they don't solo well. Increasing their damage and making them solo better is going to cause a nerf to thier buffs. That is why defenders will not get a damage buff. It'a against the grain.
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Quote:No need to analyze every specific power in every specific set because AT balance is never done like that (that's power balance lumi). Controllers have a modifier of 0.55 and containment is easily achieved and doubles that to 1.10. Defender modifier is 0.65 and has nothing inherently enhancing it. Defender buff modifier is 1.25 and controller's is 1.00. Now explain without citing specific powers why the damage difference is 0.45 and the support difference is 0.25, and how is that balanced? Now answer how much mitigation does combination of control sets and support set bring compared to blast sets and support sets.Originally Posted by Luminara
So prove it. If you're that certain of your conclusion, analyze the damage output of every controller combination with optimal attack chains and every defender combination with optimal attack chains, including relevant buffs and debuffs, and applicable enhancement values, and the extreme outliers for both (high and low), and prove that one or the other is "overpowered" or "underpowered".
Bonus round, how is the corruptor-defender damage difference of 0.3775 (includes 12% average scourge gain and 25% damage cap gain) is balanced with a support difference of 0.25. -
If you haven't read my guide KingSnake, I highly recommend you do so.
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Quote:biggest complaint isn't about the defender primary, it's about their secondary and base damage being too weak compared to other ATs. With the way the game has evolved, good damage at all level ranges is a must for an AT, Kheldians had their damage buffed because of this. Those that say the damage is fine really need to admit to themselves that they are using specific -res/+dmg powers in specific sets and Sonic blast's overtuned debuff value as a crutch. Roll up a FF/* or Empath/* with any set not sonic blast and you'll find your soloing speed crippling compared to any other AT.Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
All this proves is less people play Defenders. Not necessarily that they're underpowered. A GOOD defender can still bring a lot to a team, especially when dealing with GMs and AVs (where crowd control is moot).
Are Controllers more powerful? For the most part, yes. And with Corruptors being able to cross over soon with their higher damage numbers, Defenders probably do need some help to be seen as "viable". Funny thing is, people will take a rad, any rad, not realizing that a Defenders Debuffs will function significantly better than that of a Controller. What Defenders need is better PR... and if that has to come in the shape of Devs announcing a minor buff for them, then so be it.
Really we need to buff the damage up and raise corruptor damage higher if necessary and then fine tune tweak specific sets afterwards. Fix the major problem so you can focus on the smaller ones. Also of course fix the inherent or completely revamp it to add more distinct flavor to the defender AT. -
Quote:well that's expected, do the big adjustments first so that you don't have to do as many small adjustments overall.Originally Posted by Biospark
I concede that point Turbo
Of course, then you are still looking at another round of adjustments (In my book) to bring the less optimal soloers within an acceptable range. -
How about a click power that does a defender style of "Vengeance" but doesn't require a dead teammate. If a handicap(s) must be included, here are some possibilities:
- Long "ignores buffs" recharge
- requires below certain team total health (like between 25-50% and below)
- eats a huge chunk of endurance and -recovery
- has a domination style buildup bar with blasts
- makes the defender vulnerable for duration(-DEF and -RES debuff)
- weakens defender for duration (-Tohit and -DMG debuff) -
That was very big of you and I accept your apology.
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Quote:The problem is some sets will always be behind if you are considering every support set when adjusting damage modifiers because every set is designed to have different total amounts of -res/+dmg. The sets having different strengths from each other is kind of the point of having multiple sets. You can't go around considering specific sets when you're comparing AT modifiers and trying to balance to VERY similar ATs like corruptors and defenders. You can however fix the damage/buff modifiers so that the majority of the sets get balanced and then adjust damage/buff scalars up and down according to specific set flavor afterwards.Originally Posted by Biospark
Very Good Point. Empathy and Forcefields stand out in this regard.
Which is another reason against a global dmg increase. These two sets will STILL be behind the other primaries.
Raising the defender and corruptor damage and bringing them closer to being balanced in their trade offs (trading damage<->support advantages equally) would help to better set the stage for balancing a lot of the inconsistent numbers that plague support sets. -
Quote:And if you removed every defender with Kin/, Dark/, Rad/, and /Sonic you would see the defender population vastly drop as well. Overpowered sets might be popular but they have nothing to do with overall AT balance, that's an issue of power balancing. If you nerfed controller damage and controls significantly just because of a few overpowered builds, you're hurting A LOT of underpowered and balanced builds in the process. Likewise you shouldn't consider such sets when you are adjusting modifiers and you should address those sets on an individual basis not as a projection of the entire AT.Originally Posted by Fulmens
There are about four "specific combos" for Controllers that make the rep. Fire/Kin, Fire/Rad, Ill/Rad... I'm not sure what the other one would be, but if a glitch took those three combos off every server you'd see three times as many Defenders as Controllers, instead of the other way around.
"Specific build" matters. (see Firetankapalooza, or the Fire/Dev Summer of 2004.) -
Too much overthinking and overdoing it trickshooter and it still ends up really boring.
Rather see something far more interactive like a fury-type bar or a click inherent. Also something that doesn't blatantly encourage stacking defenders when they are already strong stacked. All the support ATs should function on-par with one another and still play differently, not have one be extremely superior in teams as your suggestion would make defenders. -
Irrelevant starsman since as I said with the Kheldian example, they don't consider -res/+dmg powers from powersets when balancing damage modifiers.
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Quote:They've ignored such things in the past, such as double-mire eclipsed warshades when balancing Kheldian AT damage.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It must be considered. You can't just ignore it. That being said, I think its effect is overblown and should not prevent a damage increase.
I am interested in seeing why I am wrong, but simply flashing some numbers going 1.3*X without considering things like tabbing through a spawn to find which target you will toggle, the animation time of the power itself, the fact that you aggrod without dealing any damage, the enemies you have to kill outside the area of effect, etc. will be mitigated in my head by those factors. -
Quote:So you feel that all support AT base damage should be balanced around the assumption that you have access to Enervating Field? Yeah that makes so much sense /sarcasmOriginally Posted by Starsman_NA
That is entirely false.
The only thing that is "never accounted" during balance are pool powers and even those you can be sure ARE looked at, just not expected.
All ATs are balanced around goals. The defender is given very low damage modifiers but very high damage buff and debuff modifiers. That should give you a clue about how they expect the defender to work their offensive. The only way you can ever expect defenders to get a damage buff, is to suffer a damage buff nerf and I doubt you will ever see that happen.
The fact that two sets cant ever get the tools needed is what is questionable.
All sets across defenders, controllers, corruptors and masterminds have the tools to increase their own damage but two, i think that leaves a lot to say about those two, not about the AT.
The progression of sets is a set design issue that is present all over the game but all ATs are balanced around access to the full sets, not just what they had at level 1. If it was, then I'd start asking Castle to give mez protection and inherent taunt to scrappers right now, and make assassination available at lvl 1 not lvl 8, etc.