Tiffany_Seville

Well, I haven't been around for a while, but ...


I always thought the selling point to Unstoppable was less how much it contributed to your overall protection profile and more that it provided temporary toggle-less protection.

The problem is there were very few situations where that was ever useful for a Tanker. Most people became accustomed to dealing with those situations in other ways, making it an entirely optional power.

I vote for Foo.

[ QUOTE ]
While Invincibility was up, I noticed the yellow "crosshairs" +ACC buff indicators swirling around the two minions (but not the LT). I looked very closely, it wasn't the debuff indicator. Around me was just the purple +DEF indicators.

The +Acc buff indicators kept swirling around the two minions for about 12-15 seconds after I turned off Invinc, at which point the Taunt must have expired and they ran away.

[/ QUOTE ]
interesting.

it looks like the DefBuf indicators show up, too. i get the DefBuf shields on my Tanker and on the foe affected by Invincibility, while i get the ToHitBuff crosshairs only on my foe.

i just looked back at my demo files from today and compared them against some older ones. both DefBuffContinuing and ToHitBuffContinuing are showing up as maintained effects on foes targeted by Invincibility in my demofiles from today while they do not appear in my older (Oct) demo files.

it could certainly just be a costmetic problem, or it could be intentional, as you suggest, to show which foes are contributing to Invinc's benefits. but it does appear to be new.

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, while researching this problem, I discovered that Gauntlet from pool powers like Boxing or Air Superiority have, apparently, never worked. That'll be fixed as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
now that's weird! i know in my tests i get aggro from Boxing and not from Brawl. i had always assumed it was Gauntlet, tho it sounds like it might just be hate.

Hey everybody!

If you're providing an example of strange behavior, make sure to differentiate between 1.) losing aggro directly to another teammate and 2.) having foes run away. They are two very different things.

Also, a demo file might be helpful, but otherwise, describing the situation in detail might help, too. Things like level and AT of team members, type and level of foes, active powers, etc.

That said, I just sent _Castle_ a demo file with my level 50 Tanker being unable to obtain aggro at all on a Lt in a even-level Carnical mission using Invincibility. I noticed this while i was doing some of my Taunt testing. I have not seen any increase in fear effects so far, even after taking foes down significantly in health.

thanks for the comments! yes, there have been a few versions. and hopefully a few more to come.

i'll definitely try to incorporate the comments and suggestions in the upcoming revision. thanks!

maybe we need Buffy to kill it for us?

[ QUOTE ]

Then if I use a PBAoE, say fire sword circle, I can effect an additional 10 or the melee enduced gauntlet swtiches to PBAoE induced?


[/ QUOTE ]
correct. if you use FSC, gauntlet can affect up to 10, but is also limited to the foes damaged.

what might require some clarification from the Devs is - how does gauntlet determine who it affects? the wording i've seen used "up to 5" has always made it settle in my mind as not automatic, i.e. if you damage a foe, you aren't guaranteed a gauntlet taunt on them. however, i've been doing some searching and so far i can't find anywhere its explicitly stated.

certainly from personal experience, it seems like i've damaged foes and not automatically obtained aggro, so i assume gauntlet only has a chance of affecting the foe you hit and up to 5 nearby. if so, what is that chance based on? is it a "to hit" roll? is success improved by ACC enhancements in the attack? are the conditions of the chance the same for all 5 foes?

[ QUOTE ]

The taunt cap is at 17 as of right now correct?
What if I have a group of 15 around my tank, and then use the power "Taunt" at some ranged enemies to mitigate damage from a teammate does that taunt only effect 2 of them, or does the taunt I have on the 15 in melee range get negated?


[/ QUOTE ]
its a fine point, but i believe the _AGGRO_ cap is 17. its important because you can get aggro by other means, i.e. "hate". in the example you cite, you should aggro only two of the newly engaged foes. i imagine there is the possibility that you lose aggro on some of the original 15 coincidentally with firing off taunt and thus can aggro more at range but lose some close by. but that would require your "taunt" on the nearby foes to expire and one of your teammates inducing enough "hate" to take aggro away from you.

i believe aggro can last pretty long. in fact, it usually seems somebody else needs to take aggro away from you in order for you to lose it even over pretty long periods of time. it might be important if, as tanks, there's a chance we can aggro a significant number of foes and somehow get separated from them, only to find our ability to "taunt" severely limited in the next spawn because there's reserved aggro sitting somwhere behind us.

now on the Test Server:

[ QUOTE ]

• The 5% Defense reduction in Scrapper and Brute versions of Unyielding has been reduced to a 3.75% Defense reduction. This value matches then unenhanced Defense gained from the Tough Hide passive power in the same power set. The Tanker version remains unchanged, as the values already match properly.


[/ QUOTE ]
i just thought it was interesting the oft speculated "UY debuff is conveniently close to the Tough Hide base buff" seems to be verified as "intended".

while this is certainly nice for Scrappers and Brutes, who paid a penalty that was harder to overcome, it also kindof implies there are no plans to get rid of the debuff in the near future.

[ QUOTE ]

Invincibility
Invinc provides 5% DEF plus 1.5% for each additional foe up to ten (validated by
_Castle_). At ten foes, that puts unenhanced Invincibility at 20% DEF or 31% DEF
when enhanced with three even-level SO's. Invinc also provides a 20% to hit buff,
In addition to its buffing effects, Invinc is also a Taunt aura, i.e. it Taunts foes
within melee range.
Invincibility is slottable with defense buff, tohit buff, endurance reduction,
recharge, and taunt duration enhancements. Invincibility’s recharge is short
enough that recharge enhancement is of little value.


[/ QUOTE ]
Correction: Invincibility's ToHit buff is 2% per foe in melee range up to 10 foes, providing up to 20% with ten foes in melee range unslotted or about 31% with ten foes in range three-slotted with even-level SO's.

thanks, Arcanaville!

Tiffany Seville's Invulnerability/Fire Melee Guide for I7

Power Pools
==================================================
I’m not going to spend a lot of time on Power Pools. In my mind, they’re largely
personal preference. I will comment on a couple specific powers. Note that Power Pool
powers come in sets of four. The first two are available at level 6. The third power
in a pool is available at level 14, provided you've already taken one power from the
pool. The fourth power is available at level 20 provided you've taken two powers from
the pool. Most folk are familiar with these powers because the various travel powers
come from the pools.

Fighting
Tough – As mentioned earlier, if you want to cap S/L RES, with ED you now
need to include Tough in your build. Tough has a base of 15% S/L RES, so 3-
slotted with even-level DamRes SO’s, it provides 23.4% S/L RES. Tough has a
high endurance cost, so you may want to consider adding a slot for
EndRdx if you find slotting EndRdx in your attacks isn’t sufficient. Note that
Tough requires one prerequisite power from the Fighting Pool and is available at lvl 14.

Weave – Weave provides 5% DEF and will stack with TH and Invinc. It has
a heavy End cost, however. If you are putting together a defensive build and plan
to take Tough for S/L RES, you might consider Weave, as well. Just watch your
Endurance.
Weave requires two prereqs from the Fighting Pool and is available at lvl 20.

Fitness
Health – I would recommend taking and slotting Health. In combination
with Dull Pain, this will take your regen rate to a point where you can ignore a
decent amount of incoming damage, at least during the times Dull Pain is active.
You were going to take Health anyway so you could get Stamina, right?
Health is available at 14 and requires one prereq power from the Fitness Pool.

Stamina – Stamina boosts your Endurance recovery rate. If you find yourself
running out of Endurance all the time - and you probably will, you will want to get
Stamina. In fact, you should try to pick it up somewhere between lvl 20 and 24. Of
all the pool powers, Stamina is the closest to being necessary. You can certainly
do without it, but your life will be a lot easier with it.
Stamina requires two prereq powers from the Fitness Pool and is available at lvl 20.

Speed
Hasten – Hasten increases the rate at which all your powers recharge when it
is active. Prior to I6 you used to be able to slot enough recharges in Hasten to
make sure it was always active - also known as perma-Hasten. As a result, a lot of
folk eliminated it from their builds. Hasten still has some value, but it becomes
situational, for example against foes that can slow your recharge rate.

Flight
Air Superiority – Fire Melee notably lacks a status effect power, i.e. a power
that disorients, stuns, knockdowns, or otherwise prevents a foe from fighting for a
short time. If you're interested in flying as a travel power, consider AS as a
prerequisite. It has a very high probability of knocking down a foe. Personally, i
just don't like AS for some odd reason, so i'd recommend you try it on Test for a
bit before you commit to it.

Medicine
Aid Self - Aid Self from the Medicine pool can be a surprisingly powerful
addition to your build. It provides a pretty significant self-heal with a relatively
short recharge. It is interruptible, so you may want to slot it with Interrupt
Reduction. Heal and Recharge are also good slotting options. Maltese_Knight
is probably the lead Tanker advocate of Aid Self, so check the forums for
some of his posts. It isn't for everybody - some folk don't like the idea or the
animation, so you might want to try it on the Test Server before taking it Live.

Epic Pools
==================================================
AnotherDeadHero has a nice Epic Pool Guide.

Epic Pools do a couple things for Tankers. They provide holds, ranged attacks, and
some nice utility powers. For the first two, i think many folk base their decision
primarily on concept.

It helps to consider Energy, though, as it includes Focused Accuracy and Conserve
Power. FA provides a base 18.5% ToHit buff when it is active. Not a bad buff. I hear
it can be especially beneficial in PvP. CP is a useful power if you find your End use
to still be high.

Taking an Epic Pool, of course, is not necessary. In fact, in most of my more recent
builds, i've been avoiding the Epic Pools in order to take all the powers i want in
my Primary and Secondary.

Tips for the new Tanker
==================================================
If you're new to tanking, consider the following suggestions and tips:
<ul type="square">[*]Learn how to gather and position foes. Holding aggro is only part of the
picture. If you taunt a foe and they stop twenty feet away to simply fire at you
from range, you probably aren't going to dispatch them quickly. The trick to
getting foes to come close is to break line of sight (LoS). Practice using LoS to
position foes around you in solo missions.[*]Just because you're taking damage doesn't mean your teammates are safe.
Especially at later levels, your foes may have Area of Effect (AoE) attacks. If your
teammates are near you, they may still suffer damage from these AoE attacks
even if they're directed at you. One popular tactic tanks use is to leap into or over
a group of enemies to position them between you and your teammates. This gets
them to turn towards you and away from your teammates, making it less likely
your teammates will suffer from AoE's.[*]Keep an eye on the battle. I always zoom out my camera at the start of a
battle. Then i rotate the camera to keep an eye on how the battle progresses. If
you hold down the right mouse button while rotating the camera, the camera won't
keep snapping back to behind you. Just remember you can hit PgDn to reset the
camera position.[*]If you use the above trick, you might want to increase your mouse look and
turning speed. These can be found in Options under the Controls tab.[*]Keep an eye on your teammates. I usually keep the team window somewhere
easy to see and keep an eye on it to understand what kind of trouble my
teammates are in. I also make player health bars always visible in Options. If one
of my teammates health bars drops to orange or red, i might have an opportunity
to adjust my tactics to help them out.[*]It doesn’t help to have good resistance unless you know what kind of damage
you’re being dealt. There’s a small menu at the top of your Chat window. Click
on “1”, “2”, “3”, or “4”. A new window will pop up. Click on the “Add Tab” button in
the middle of it. You will get a pop-up window that asks you to configure your new
chat window. Select “Damage Received” on the right-hand side and click on
the “Add” button then click the “OK” button. This will create a chat window that will
always tell you how much you’re being hurt and (usually) by what type of damage.
Use this to gauge your survivability in combat. If you have low Energy RES and
you’re seeing a lot of Energy damage, ask your teammates for help or start being
more conservative in battle.[*]Learn to use Gauntlet: Gauntlet works best if you spread out your attacks. If
you are intent on trying to gather aggro, don't just focus on a single foe, but try to
alternate your attacks between the foes around you. This will help you retain
aggro on foes you're engaged with especially in your teens prior to obtaining
Invincibility. It is easier to spread out your attacks if you follow the first tip of
keeping the camera zoomed out.[*]Learn to use Invincibility. The more foes in melee range, the better your
defense. If you're on a team, most of the groups you find should be sufficient size
and you'll merely need to jump in the middle and do your thing. In addition, once
you are engaged with them, Invincibility's Taunt aura will keep them engaged with
you, so you have less work maintaining aggro.
If you are on a small team or solo, you may find you need to gather foes to
improve the amount of DEF you get from Invinc. For example, if you're facing a
somewhat spread-out group of foes that includes a strong non-S/L boss. You may
need to gather the minions along with the boss in order to improve your chances.
Axterix points out, that the actual process of gathering leaves you pretty
vulnerable. While you're gathering, you are likely to be subject to attack from
ranged foes, who won't contribute to Invinc's DEF bonus.[*]Don't go overboard: just because you can take a lot of aggro doesn't mean you
should. On a small team, even a novice tank can hold enough aggro to manage all
the available foes. Most of the time, there won't be any reason to do this, and it
may simply serve to make your teammates feel irked. While you may feel its your
duty to protect your teammates, its likely they feel the same. You're all heroes - if
they've done even a little soloing, they know how to handle a few foes. Let them
participate, too, and reserve bit for the real challenges.[*]Be flexible. There are a lot of powers that show up in the lvl 18 to 28 range that
you're going to want take and slot. You simply can't take and slot them all at the
same time. Build a priority list and take powers in order of priority, but be
prepared to adapt if your experiences show you need a power sooner than you
thought. Slot powers as you need them. For example, its probably not worth
slotting endurance reduction in toggles until you actually find you have an
endurance problem. The nice thing about enhancements is they can be changed.
However, remember, you can't remove slots you've added to a power without a
respec.[*]Join the Global Tankers Channel by typing "/chanjoin Tankers" in your chat
window. Its a great group of folk who are always willing to help out when you
have questions about Tanking.[/list]Finally, a bit of opinion: Personally, I play on team to contribute to the team; to
help the team become more than the sum of its members. I enjoy the
interaction between my teammates, even if they aren't all skilled and utterly
disciplined. As a tank, you can help smooth out those rough edges that come from
having a team of individuals working together. That doesn't mean you have to
utterly dictate every course of action the team takes.

Example Builds
==================================================
When you start developing a build, you should have an overall strategy and a
collection of goals to support that strategy.

Consider things like, how much RES do you want to have and when? Is it
important for you to get the most defense out of your build early or to start out
with enough offense to have a full attack chain by lvl 12? How heavily do you want
to rely on Invincibility for overall defense? Do you plan to play mostly with teams
and use a team-focused build or do you need a build for solo-only play or
somewhere in between.

Your answers to all these questions affect how you build your hero. Let’s look at
some examples:

Moderate Defense Build
This is a nice middle-of-the-road defensive build. It covers the basics reaching 66% S/L RES and 28% non-S/L RES. It includes all the top tier Inv powers and still has a lot of room for customization:
[/b]01) --&gt; Temp Invulnerability==&gt; DmgRes(1)DmgRes(3)DmgRes(3)
01) --&gt; Scorch==&gt; Acc(1)EndRdx(5)Dmg(5)Dmg(11)Dmg(13)Rechg(25)
02) --&gt; Dull Pain==&gt; Heal(2)Heal(7)Heal(7)Rechg(13)Rechg(23)Rechg(25)
04) --&gt; Combustion==&gt; EndRdx(4)Acc(9)Dmg(9)Dmg(11)Dmg(23)Rechg(33)
06) --&gt; Swift==&gt; Empty(6)
08) --&gt; Unyielding==&gt; DmgRes(8)DmgRes(15)DmgRes(21)
10) --&gt; Taunt==&gt; Empty(10)
12) --&gt; Hover==&gt; Empty(12)
14) --&gt; Fly==&gt;
16) --&gt; Health==&gt; Heal(16)Heal(17)Heal(17)
18) --&gt; Invincibility==&gt; DefBuf(18)DefBuf(19)DefBuf(19)
20) --&gt; Stamina==&gt; EndMod(20)EndMod(21)
22) --&gt; Resist Physical Damage==&gt; DmgRes(22)DmgRes(33)DmgRes(33)
24) --&gt; Resist Energies==&gt; DmgRes(24)DmgRes(34)DmgRes(34)
26) --&gt; Tough Hide==&gt; DefBuf(26)DefBuf(27)DefBuf(27)
28) --&gt; Fire Sword Circle==&gt; Acc(28)EndRdx(29)Dmg(29)Dmg(31)Dmg(31)Rechg(31)
30) --&gt; Resist Elements==&gt; DmgRes(30)DmgRes(34)DmgRes(37)
32) --&gt; Unstoppable==&gt; DmgRes(32)
35) --&gt; Incinerate==&gt; Acc(35)EndRdx(36)Dmg(36)Dmg(36)Dmg(37)Rechg(37)
38) --&gt; Greater Fire Sword==&gt; Acc(38)EndRdx(39)Dmg(39)Dmg(39)Dmg(40)Rechg(40)

Heavy Defense Build
Here's an example of what it might take to go heavy defense. This build attempts to cram as much defense in as early as possible without making extreme compromises, tho its compromises are significant enough. It is a very tight build with little room for customization, but it caps S/L RES, still only gets 28% non-S/L RES, however it also manages to pick up Weave for DEF.
[/b]01) --&gt; Temp Invulnerability==&gt; DmgRes(1)DmgRes(3)DmgRes(3)EndRdx(40)
01) --&gt; Scorch==&gt; Acc(1)Dmg(11)Dmg(11)Dmg(13)Rechg(13)EndRdx(33)
02) --&gt; Dull Pain==&gt; Heal(2)Heal(5)Heal(5)Rechg(15)Rechg(15)Rechg(21)
04) --&gt; Resist Physical Damage==&gt; DmgRes(4)DmgRes(7)DmgRes(7)
06) --&gt; Boxing==&gt; Empty(6)
08) --&gt; Unyielding==&gt; DmgRes(8)DmgRes(9)DmgRes(9)EndRdx(34)
10) --&gt; Taunt==&gt; Rechg(10)
12) --&gt; Hover==&gt; Fly(12)Fly(48)
14) --&gt; Fly==&gt; EndRdx(14)Fly(34)Fly(34)Fly(37)
16) --&gt; Tough==&gt; EndRdx(16)DmgRes(17)DmgRes(17)DmgRes(21)
18) --&gt; Invincibility==&gt; DefBuf(18)DefBuf(19)DefBuf(19)EndRdx(43)
20) --&gt; Swift==&gt; Run(20)
22) --&gt; Health==&gt; Heal(22)Heal(23)Heal(23)
24) --&gt; Stamina==&gt; EndMod(24)EndMod(25)EndMod(25)
26) --&gt; Tough Hide==&gt; DefBuf(26)DefBuf(27)DefBuf(27)
28) --&gt; Fire Sword Circle==&gt; Acc(28)Dmg(29)EndRdx(29)Dmg(31)Dmg(33)Rechg(33)
30) --&gt; Resist Energies==&gt; DmgRes(30)DmgRes(31)DmgRes(31)
32) --&gt; Unstoppable==&gt; DmgRes(32)Rechg(46)Rechg(46)Rechg(46)
35) --&gt; Incinerate==&gt; Acc(35)Dmg(36)Dmg(36)EndRdx(36)Dmg(37)Rechg(37)
38) --&gt; Greater Fire Sword==&gt; Acc(38)Dmg(39)EndRdx(39)Dmg(39)Rechg(40)Dmg(40)
41) --&gt; Combustion==&gt; Acc(41)Dmg(42)EndRdx(42)Dmg(42)Dmg(43)EndRdx(43)
44) --&gt; Weave==&gt; EndRdx(44)DefBuf(45)DefBuf(45)DefBuf(45)
47) --&gt; Resist Elements==&gt; DmgRes(47)DmgRes(48)DmgRes(48)
49) --&gt; Build Up==&gt; Rechg(49)

Mostly Passive Build
Finally, for something different, here's a mostly passive build, that also includes Aid Self to make up for its lack of additional RES. This build only reaches about 20% S/L RES and 28% non-S/L RES, so it wouldn't be recommended for large teams and heavy tanking.
[/b]01) --&gt; Resist Physical Damage==&gt; DmgRes(1)DmgRes(3)DmgRes(3)
01) --&gt; Scorch==&gt; Acc(1)EndRdx(5)Dmg(9)Dmg(13)Dmg(37)Rechg(42)
02) --&gt; Dull Pain==&gt; Heal(2)Heal(5)Heal(9)Rechg(15)Rechg(21)Rechg(31)
04) --&gt; Fire Sword==&gt; Acc(4)EndRdx(7)Dmg(7)Dmg(15)Dmg(40)Rechg(42)
06) --&gt; Swift==&gt; Empty(6)
08) --&gt; Unyielding==&gt; DmgRes(8)DmgRes(11)DmgRes(11)EndRdx(45)
10) --&gt; Taunt==&gt; Rechg(10)
12) --&gt; Hover==&gt; Empty(12)
14) --&gt; Fly==&gt; EndRdx(14)Fly(43)Fly(45)Fly(46)
16) --&gt; Health==&gt; Heal(16)Heal(17)Heal(17)
18) --&gt; Invincibility==&gt; DefBuf(18)DefBuf(19)DefBuf(19)TH_Buf(45)EndRdx(46)TH_Buf(46)
20) --&gt; Stamina==&gt; EndMod(20)EndMod(21)
22) --&gt; Resist Elements==&gt; DmgRes(22)DmgRes(23)DmgRes(23)
24) --&gt; Resist Energies==&gt; DmgRes(24)DmgRes(25)DmgRes(25)
26) --&gt; Tough Hide==&gt; DefBuf(26)DefBuf(27)DefBuf(27)
28) --&gt; Fire Sword Circle==&gt; Acc(28)EndRdx(29)Dmg(29)Dmg(33)Dmg(33)Rechg(34)
30) --&gt; Combustion==&gt; Acc(30)EndRdx(31)Dmg(31)Dmg(33)Dmg(34)Rechg(34)
32) --&gt; Unstoppable==&gt; DmgRes(32)Rechg(42)Rechg(43)Rechg(43)
35) --&gt; Incinerate==&gt; Acc(35)EndRdx(36)Dmg(36)Dmg(36)Dmg(37)Rechg(37)
38) --&gt; Greater Fire Sword==&gt; Acc(38)EndRdx(39)Dmg(39)Dmg(39)Dmg(40)Rechg(40)
41) --&gt; Build Up==&gt; Empty(41)
44) --&gt; Aid Other==&gt; Empty(44)
47) --&gt; Aid Self==&gt; IntRdx(47)IntRdx(48)Heal(48)Heal(48)Heal(50)Rechg(50)

Tiffany Seville’s Invulnerability/Fire Melee Guide for I7
==================================================
Attributions:
Thanks for Finduilas, Vilance, Axterix, Smersh, BuffyASummers (for her
Basic Tanker Information for I7 ), Circeus, and gWrath for help and
suggestions through the last few iterations of this guide.

Table of Contents
I've divided this guide into the following sections:

<ul type="square">[*]Basic Info for Beginning Tankers[*]Inv/Fire Powers Overview[*]Tips for New Tankers[*]Example Builds[/list]I should also mention this guide is pretty heavily skewed towards PvE. I'm not much
for PvP, myself, so my experience is very limited, tho i have added some PvP comments
where offered by more knowledgeable folk.

What Has Changed
==================================================
Not too much has changed for Inv/Fire since Issue 6.

<ul type="square">[*]In a post-I6 patch, Invincibility was fixed to provide 5% DEF plus
1.5% DEF per foe up to 10[*]In a post-I6 patch, Taunt and Combustion were switched in order in the Fire
Melee secondary[*]I7 eliminated the pause after the animation for Fire Sword Circle and Greater
Fire Sword[*]Global Defense Scaling changes were implemented in I7. See Arcanaville's FAQ[/list]
Basic Info for Beginners
==================================================
As an Inv Tanker, your Primary is focused on armoring you against attack. It's
important to understand the basic concepts behind how these powers work to
knowledgeably select and slot your powers.

Resistance (RES) and Defense (DEF)
Two attributes contribute to defensive posture in CoH: Resistance (RES) and
Defense (DEF). It is the combination of RES and DEF that delivers true
defensive power to a Tank.

Resistance (RES)
Resistance affects the amount of damage you take from an attack. If you have
resistance, an attack that hits you will do less damage. For example, say you have
25% RES to Fire attacks and you are attacked with fire for 100 points of damage.
That 100 point attack will only do 75 points of damage to you.

Resistance is specific to damage type. There are eight basic types of
damage: Smashing, Lethal, Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative Energy, Toxic and Psi.
You may also see these written as S/L/F/C/En/Neg/Tox/Psi. Most Invulnerability
powers provide RES to only one or two damage types, which makes it important to
have a general feel for how resistant you are to each type. You should also try to
learn what types of damage specific foes specialize in.

Tankers cannot have more than 90% RES to any type of damage, this is known as
the resistance cap. Even if your individual powers total to more than 90%
RES, only 90% will be used to calculate the damage an attack does. For example,
say you have 110% RES to Fire and a Demon shoots you for 100 points of fire
damage. The attack will still do 10 points of damage to you even though you have
110% RES.

The resistance cap is different for different AT's. Brutes, like Tanks, also cap at
90%. For Kheldians, the RES cap is 80%. For all other AT’s its 75%.

Defense (DEF)
Defense affects how successful a foe will be in hitting you. If you aren’t hit, there
won't be any damage to take. For example, if you have 15% DEF and a villain has
a base 50% chance of hitting you, the villain will have a 35% chance to hit you
after your DEF is factored in.

Arcanaville has an excellent Guide to Defense that you can check for the
gory details.

No matter how much DEF you have, a foe will always have at least a 5% chance of
hitting you. This is known as the to-hit floor. For example, if you have 65%
DEF and you’re being attacked by a minion with a 50% chance of hitting you, the
minion will still have a 5% chance to hit you. There is also a DEF cap, i.e. a
maximum amount of DEF each AT can effectively apply. The DEF cap is thought to
be so high that its unlikely to actually affect normal game play.

DEF is either typed or positional. Typed DEF only applies to a specific
type of damage, for example 25% DEF to Fire damage. Positional DEF depends on
whether the attack is a melee attack or a ranged attack.

Tankers tend to have typed DEF. For example, Invincibility is DEF to
S/L/F/C/En/Neg (note Psi is missing). For attacks that have multiple types, only
the highest typed DEF counts. So, if you have 10% DEF to Fire and 20% DEF to
Lethal and a villain attacks you with Fire Sword (mixed-type Lethal and Fire), you
get 20% DEF to the whole attack, i.e. both the Fire and Lethal components.

Finduilus reminds me there is no typed DEF for Toxic. This has to do with the way
Toxic damage is implemented in the game. You can have Toxic RES, but you
cannot have DEF specifically for the Toxic damage type.

As mentioned earlier, the way DEF performs has changed slightly in I7. Check out
Arcanaville's I7 Defense Scalar FAQ.

Aggro
As a Tank, you will hear a lot about aggro. Aggro is a term that refers to a
foe's interest in attacking you. If you have obtained aggro for a particular foe,
they should attack you. Aggro is obtained either through hate or taunt.
For a detailed explanation of how aggro works, check out
Circeus's So you want to know about Taunt thread.

Aggro is important for a Tank because it provides a vehicle Tanks can exploit to
extend their abilities for the benefit of their team. Since Tankers tend to be more
resilient than other AT's, a Tanker can support the team by occupying the attention
of a greater number of foes, leaving teammates free to act or allowing the team to
take on more substantial threats than they would otherwise be able to overcome.

Tankers have three basic tools that can be used to manage aggro: Gauntlet,
Taunt Auras, and the Taunt power.

Gauntlet is the Tanker inherent power. Every attack a Tanker makes has a chance
of taunting up to five nearby foes. Gauntlet is weak at lower levels, but
gets stronger as you gain experience.

Taunt Auras are powers that automatically taunt foes within the range of the aura.
Invincibility is an Invulnerability Tank's taunt aura. Once you get Invinc, any foe
that comes into melee range (up to 10) while Invinc is active should stick to you
like glue.

The Taunt power, available in all Tanker secondaries at level 10, is an auto-hit
power that aggro's the five foes nearest its target. Because this power is auto-hit,
you are essentially guaranteed to obtain aggro (at least up to the aggro cap, see below)
for the foe unless your taunt is being overruled by another taunt (see Circeus' guide).
Taunt is probably the best tool you have for obtaining aggro on foes at range. Note
that Provoke, from the Presence Power Pool, is a lot like Taunt, the only
difference being Provoke is not auto-hit.

An aggro cap was introduced to the game in I6. You cannot hold aggro for more
than 17 foes at a time. You should also be aware there are some rare foes who
follow their own aggro rules and can't be always be taunted away from
teammates. Finally, taunt has a duration that is affected by the difference in level
between you and your target. As you fight foes that are higher level than you, you
will find your hold on them shortens. The duration starts to get extremely short at
5 or more levels greater.

Invulnerability Primary Overview
==================================================
This section summarizes the powers in the Invulnerability Primary. Recommendations
can be found at the end of this section.

Powers
Resist Physical Damage
Resist Physical Damage(RPD) provides you with base 7.5% resistance (RES) to
smashing and lethal damage (S/L). Three-slotted with even-level enhancements,
RPD will offer 11.7% S/L RES (SO’s).
RPD is a passive power, so it is always active and costs no endurance to maintain.
RPD is only enhancable with Damage Resistance (DamRes) enhancements. You
should not devote more than three slots to this power.

Temporary Invulnerability
TI provides a base 30% RES to S/L when active. Three-slotted with even-level
damage resist SO's, TI will provide 47% S/L RES (SO’s).
TI is a toggle power, which means it costs endurance to keep running. Plus, it can
be turned off by things that de-toggle, like status effects, PvP Brawl, or endurance
drain.
TI is one of the more important powers in the Inv Primary.
TI is enhancable with damage resistance, endurance reduction, and recharge
enhancements. TI really recharges too quickly for recharge to be useful. However,
it has a moderate endurance cost, so endurance reduction may be worth
considering, especially with the reduced effectiveness of Stamina post-ED.
If you are considering EndRdx in TI, think about slotting one EndRdx in each of
your attacks first. This will have a much bigger impact on overall End use. After
that, slots your toggles in the following order: Tough, UY, TI, and Invinc.

Dull Pain
When activated, DP increases your health by 40% and heals you for 40% of your
health. Dull Pain's heal can be enhanced by Health enhancements. Health
enhancements also affect how much DP increases your health, but this aspect of
DP is only half enhancable, i.e. only half of the benefit, i.e. 20%, is
enhancable. Dull Pain can also be enhanced with Recharges, to make it available
more frequently.
For a lot of detail on Dull Pain, read Stupid_Fanboy’s
Dull Pain: How it works, How to use it guide.

Resist Elements
REl provides a base 7.5% RES to Fire/Cold/Toxic damage. Three-slotted with
even-level SO enhancements, REl will offer 11.7% F/C/T RES. Like RPD, REl is a
passive power, so it is always active.
REl is only enhancable with DamRes enhancements. As a result, it is not
recommended you devote more than three slots to this power.

Unyielding
UY provides status protection, RES to S/L (5% base) and
Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative/Toxic (10%), and a 5% DEF debuff – yes, debuff
means it makes you get hit MORE OFTEN. Three-slotted with even-level SO
enhancements, UY 7.8% S/L and 15.6% non-S/L RES.
UY is enhancable with damage resistance, endurance reduction, and recharge
enhancements. UY really recharges too quickly for recharge to be useful.
However, it has the highest endurance cost of all the Inv primary powers, so
endurance reduction may be worth considering, especially with the reduced
effectiveness of Stamina post-ED.

Resist Energies
REn provides a base 7.5% RES to Energy/Negative Energy damage. Three-slotted
with even-level SO enhancements, REl will offer 11.7% En/Neg RES Like RPD and
REl, REn is a passive power, so it is always active.
REn is only enhancable with DamRes enhancements. As a result, it is not
recommended you devote more than three slots to this power.

Invincibility
Invinc provides 5% DEF plus 1.5% for each additional foe up to ten (validated by
_Castle_). At ten foes, that puts unenhanced Invincibility at 20% DEF or 31% DEF
when enhanced with three even-level SO's. Invinc also provides a 20% to hit buff,
In addition to its buffing effects, Invinc is also a Taunt aura, i.e. it Taunts foes
within melee range.
Invincibility is slottable with defense buff, tohit buff, endurance reduction,
recharge, and taunt duration enhancements. Invincibility’s recharge is short
enough that recharge enhancement is of little value.

Tough Hide
Tough Hide is a passive power that provides base 5% S/L/F/C/En/Neg typed DEF.
Three-slotted with even-level DefBuf SO enhancements, TH provides 8% DEF. As a
passive power, it takes no endurance and is always active.
Tough Hide only accepts Defense Buff enhancements, so it is recommended you
stop at three slots.

Unstoppable
Unstoppable is a click power that provides a base 70% RES to S/L/F/C/En/Ng/T. In
addition, it provides status protection and improves your endurance recovery rate.
It comes with a price … when it subsides, you are left with 10% health and no
endurance.

Recommendations
Top powers in the Inv Primary are TI, Dull Pain, UY, Invinc. These four powers
contribute the most to Inv's normal survivability. I would recommend each of them
be included in any basic build and would also recommend they be taken close
to when they become available.

RPD and TI: There are four powers that provide S/L RES for Inv Tankers: RPD,
TI, UY, and Tough (Note: Tough is a power from the Fitness Power Pool which is
covered in more detail below). How you take and slot these powers will depend heavily
on how much overall S/L resistance you want.
TI is such a strong power it should be considered necessary. You should take this
as your first power. UY, also, is almost necessary for its status protection alone.
With these two powers three-slotted with SO's a Tanker will have about 55% S/L RES.
Idividual tanks will differ most in whether they take and how they slot RPD and Tough.
<ul type="square">[*]If you want to cap S/L RES, i.e. 90%, you will have to take and
three-slot RPD, TI, UY, and Tough. For S/L, RPD's base RES is 7.5%, TI's is 30%,
UY is 5%, and Tough's is 15%. Three-slotted they are 11.7%, 46.8%, 7.8%, and
23.4%, respectively. Combined, that's 89.7%.[*]If you want decent S/L RES you can either do TI+UY+RPD, which provides 66% S/L
RES. If you head down this path, [*]To get a bit more than that, you would need to include Tough. TI+UY+Tough
provides 78% S/L RES. If you can wait until the later levels and
don’t mind the endurance cost of Tough, the TI+UY+Tough path may be worth
considering. If you expect to have endurance problems and can’t afford to give up
two power choices in your build, consider the TI+UY+RPD route.[*]If you want to have the most S/L RES you can in the early levels (pre-20), you
should fit RPD into your build in the first 10 levels or so[/list]Many Tankers feel it simply is not necessary to hit the cap for S/L and that
66% S/L RES is sufficient for most situations. This will hold especially true if you
solo or only participate in small teams. You will likely only feel you need more
if you have a defensive play style and play on large teams at higher difficulty levels,
in which case i would recommend you consider Tough or Tough and RPD.
For slotting, there should be no reason to not 3-slot TI and Tough (if you take
it) with DefBuff. You may also want to slot an EndRed in these, but you should try
to slot one EndRed in each attack before you stoop to slotting your toggle armors.
Slotting UY or RPD with DefBuf is a bit more controversial. UY, at least, covers
a lot of damage types, so its easier to argue in favor of slotting it.

Dull Pain: DP is another key Inv power. In the early levels, when
your defenses are fairly undeveloped, 40% more hit points goes a long way
towards improving your survivability. At the later levels, when non-S/L damage
becomes more prevalent, DP provides an extra buffer of damage you can take
and still survive. If you're taking a build approach that does not cap S/L RES or
only includes very minimal non-S/L RES, you should strongly consider DP.
I typically slot DP with three Heal and three Recharge.

REl and REn: These powers got hit pretty hard in I5 and then got hit a bit
more with ED. With these powers three-slotted in combination with three-slotted
UY, you only get 27.57% F/C/T/En/Neg RES. In I4, the same combination used to
reach 88%.
This change has resulted in three main strategies for approaching REl and REn. A
lot of folk feel the drop is significant enough to warrant leaving them out of their
builds entirely. If you do take them, you almost might as well slot them. Many
tanks find ED they have so many unused slots, they may as well 3-slot them, even
though the benefit is fairly small. A third strategy might be to take it and leave it
with the base slot. The path you take is purely personal preference.
It should be noted that most of the significant non-S/L damage-dealing foes don’t
pop up until later in the game, so many folk put off getting these until the mid-to-
late 20’s.

Unyielding: As mentioned earlier, UY is worth taking for its status protection
alone. There are a broader collection of opinions on whether or not its worth slotting.
As mentioned, slotting this power provides additional RES for seven different damage
types, even though its not a lot of additional RES per slot. You can certainly
survive with this power single-slotted.

Invincibility: Invinc is still one of the more potent powers in the Inv Primary.
If you three-slot Invinc with DefBuf SO’s, you can get between 9% and 30% DEF,
depending on the number of foes in melee range. My recommendation is to take
this power and quickly three-slot it with DefBuf’s.
Most folk then start slotting ToHit Buf or possibly EndRed. This is one of the few Inv
powers that can effectively take advantage of six slots, if you've got them to spare.
Invinc can also be slotted for TntDur, however, this probably doesn't make much sense.
It is believed the taunt in Invinc pulses every 0.5s or so. The constant pulsing
seems to keep taunt held on foes in melee without any need of enhancement. Slotting
for TntDur might let you out-Taunt other Tanks, but it is probably more useful
to slot DefBuf, ToHitBuf, and EndRed.

Tough Hide: Taking TH and leaving it single-slotted is enough to counter the
DEF debuff in UY. I would recommend taking it close to when it is available, but
slotting it based on personal preference. With ED, there should be enough slots in
most builds to 3-slot it. Furthermore, if you consider the numbers, its certainly a
better power to slot than UY.
Personally, i just add the extra two slots for DefBuf to it right after i take it.

Unstoppable: Not only does US provide great RES, but it provides toggle-
less RES … it is a click power. So, as long as it is active, its benefits cannot be
de-toggled. This can be a great advantage by itself in PvP and against endurance
draining foes, like Malta Sappers or detoggling foes.
For the three-minute duration of US, you will easily be able to cap RES in
S/L/F/C/En/Ng/T. In fact, two DmgRes in US allow you to reach the cap for all
seven of its damage types without any other powers. Of course, US's end boosting
effect means most tanks won't bother to turn off their other powers when they
click US, so this may be overkill. If you have single-slotted UY and one DmgRes in
US, you'll still be over the cap for everything. In fact, if you don't actually
turn off your other armors when US kicks in, you may as well not slot US
for DamRes at all.
Because of its inherent high RES, US can be a great boon against non-S/L AV's,
who appear in droves in the 40+ levels. These foes can do significant non-S/L
damage, and since they're single foes, Invinc won't help much. US will let you tank
them for three minutes. Just be warned, a lot of AV battles will last longer than
three minutes, so be prepared to have enough fire-power along to keep the battle
short, or have a plan that allows your teammates to pick up the slack when you
disengage from battle just before US drops.
Many Tanks do slot US for recharge. Three Recharges in US can allow you a great
deal of defense a lot of time, as long as you watch the crash. US cannot be
made perma, like it had been before I5.

Fire Melee
==================================================
Fire melee has the advantage of being the secondary with the most area-of-effect
(AoE) attacks. For this, its pays two noticeable prices. First, unlike most other
Tanker secondaries, it doesn’t have any status effect attacks, i.e. you won’t get
any attacks that disorient, stun, or knockdown foes. Second, in the later game,
you find some foes, most notably Circle of Thorns (CoT), with pretty good Fire
resistance.

Fire Melee also has a lot of damage over time (DoT), i.e. attacks can
continue to do damage after they first hit.

You will likely want to six-slot your main attacks. Slotting three Damage SO's is
usually considered a "no brainer". Beyond that, however, your likely candidates
are Acc, TntDur, Recharge, and EndRdx. My personal approach is to slot most of
my attacks with one EndRed, one Acc, one Recharge, and three Dmg. The EndRdx
helps keep my endurance drain rate manageable without needing Conserve
Power.

For some of the numeric details, check out Stupid_Fanboy's Tanker Attack Data.
Fire Melee even gets its own section!

Scorch
Scorch is a single target attack that does minor Fire damage with a chance of
doing up to three "ticks" of follow-on Fire.

Recommendation: Well, you have to take it, so there’s really no point, right?
I will say something about slotting, tho. A lot of folk recommend leaving this one
unslotted. By level 40, there are typically enough other more powerful attacks
available that this one comes out of your attack chain so, outside of a respec,
some folk feel slots are just wasted in Scorch.
Still, this is an attack you're likely to use heavily in the first 20 - 30 levels, which is
a pretty significant amount of time. Axterix has pointed out that if you plan on only
six-slotting only one attack in the first 20 levels, Scorch has a slight advantage
over Fire Sword. You can use it a little more frequently, which is better for
Gauntlet (Punchvoke), it does a bit better DPS (damage-per-second), and it uses
slightly less endurance.

Fire Sword
Fire Sword is a single-target attack which does moderate Fire/Lethal damage and can
also do up to four ticks of Fire damage over time (DoT).

Recommendation: Many Inv/Fire Tankers recommend skipping FS in favor of
relying more heavily on the later AoE attacks. This is a perfectly viable strategy
that frees up one power in the early levels.
If you're an impatient type, like me, you may find relying on just Brawl and Scorch
frustrating. So, in my builds, i sometimes take FS to round out my early attack
chain.

Combustion
Combustion is a moderate Fire damage (DoT) Point-Blank Area of Effect (PBAoE)
attack, i.e. its an AoE attack with you at its center. In a post-I6 patch, Combustion
moved from being the fourth power in the Fire Melee secondary to the third. As a
result, this power is now available at lvl 4 instead of lvl 10. Combustion
does up to eight ticks of additional Fire damage.

Recommendation: There are two things that surprised me about this power
when I picked it up. First, at 15', Combustion has a big radius and can affect a
large number of foes around you. Second, it starts out a bit slow for its endurance
cost. Axterix points out its cost is only a little worse than FS and its more efficient
if you can reliably hit three foes around you.
Combustion should be part of your build at some point. Fire Melee is a strong AoE
secondary, and Combustion is one of the two big AoE's in the set. Because of its
end cost, i'm not sure i'd recommend it at lvl 4, but if you're not planning to pick
up Fire Sword, Combustion may be something to consider to add to your offensive
capability in the early levels.

Taunt
Taunt is an auto-hit ranged power that allows you to take the aggro from the
targeted foe and the next four closest foes (i.e. five total). Even with the new
limited number of affected foes, Taunt is still a powerful tool for managing aggro.
In a post-I6 patch, Taunt moved from the third to the fourth position in the Fire
Melee secondary. As a result, its not available until lvl 10.

Recommendation: Many folk feel the aggro limit makes Taunt unnecessary in
light of other tools like Gauntlet and Invincibility. Others feel with the reduced
defensive stance in current issues, they may not be able to survive the aggro,
anyway. For those who still take it, there’s much debate over when to take it. Is it
worth taking before you’ve built enough defense to survive its use or do you wait
until you've built up reasonable defense? At what point do you cross that line?
Personally, I like to take Taunt when its available, but i've played Tankers for a
while and have some experience knowing how much punishment i can take. If
you're new to aggro control and Tanking, you may want to consider putting if off
until you can start realizing the power of your defenses - mid-teens if you're
putting together a defense-heavy build and can slot DO's, early 20's if you're
slotting/taking defensive powers more slowly.
If you decide not to take Taunt, learn to use your other aggro management skills
effectively. Switch between foes to take advantage of Gauntlet (Punchvoke). Take
advantage of Invincibility's taunt aura. Please try to be a good judge of how
effective you are at doing this. If you find you simply can't manage aggro without
Taunt, either take it or make sure to let your teammates know. Other AT's have
always expected Tanks to manage some portion of team aggro, and some tanks
even report being kicked from teams simply because they do not have Taunt. I’m
not suggesting you let other players dictate your build and play style for you, but
its something to be prepared for. And remember, you can avoid a lot of angst by
simply telling your teammates what to expect.
On slotting, I would suggest slotting Taunt with recharges, especially if you aren't
picking up Hasten. Taunt may only affect five foes, but each time you use it you
can affect a different set of five. So having it available more often can help you
manage a greater number of foes.
Smersh pointed out that Taunt is auto-hit only in PvE, not in PvP. Taunt will
take ToHit Buffs, but they only have an effect on PvP Taunt. If you plan to spend
time PvP-ing and want a "taunt" power, this might even be a strong argument for
Provoke instead of Taunt, which would also open up the Fear powers in the Presence
Pool.

Breath of Fire
BoF is a cone of fire you breathe from your mouth. It does Fire damage in a
reasonably narrow cone, but has the benefit of increased base accuracy. BoF can
do up to 4 ticks of additional Fire damage.

Recommendation: I’ve only had BoF in one of my builds and only for a short
time before I respec-ed it out. Its not that horrible an attack, it just isn’t as good
as the other AoE’s in the set. Plus, it comes at a very awkward time, when you’re
busy trying to make sure to fit in a travel power and get set up to have Stamina. I
still miss taking out Clockwork "Gears" with this power, tho.

Build Up
Build Up boosts your accuracy and damage for 10 seconds.

Recommendation: Not essential, but it is a good power. You should be aware
it can’t be made perma. I tend to not add any slots to it in my builds.
For another perspective, gWrath mentions that he likes to slot it with three
recharges and finds it useful right before an AoE chain (Combustion+FSC) or against
bosses and tougher foes. I'll admit to doing the BU+Combust+FSC thing, too, and it is
can definitely make a difference in AV battles where you need every little bit of
damage to overcome your foe's regen rate.

Fire Sword Circle
FSC is a moderate Fire/Lethal damage PBAoE attack. It has a shorter radius than
Combustion, but it does more damage. FSC used to have a strange pause after it
fired during which you could not perform any other action but this pause was
removed in I7. FSC does up to four ticks of additional Fire damage.

Recommendation: FSC in combination with Combustion makes for great
Inv/Fire tanking. I would recommend both powers 6-slotted. You may seriously
want to consider EndRed in these, even if you don’t use them in other attacks.

Incinerate
Incinerate is a single-target high Fire damage DoT attack. Incinerate's damage is
spread across ten ticks, with each tick occuring every half second.

Recommendation: When you get into the later game, you start to get
opportunities to fight powerful single foes, like AV’s. In these battles, it helps a
great deal to have the strong single-target Fire attacks. I definitely recommend
taking Incinerate as part of your single-target attack chain.
Axterix points out that Incinerate is incredibly end efficient. It has the second-
highest DPE of any Tanker Secondary attack, without the HP penalty.
Incinerate does take some getting used to, because the damage is spread out
over a longer time frame than most other DoT’s. It takes some experience to get
comfortable knowing Incinerate will do enough to take a particular foe out and you
can switch to another foe. That’s probably the biggest downside to Incinerate –
you’ll find you waste its DoT damage because you’ll swing again or a teammate
will take out a foe that would otherwise be defeated by the follow-on DoT.

Greater Fire Sword
GFS is the strongest single-target attack in the set. Like FS it does a combination
of Lethal and Fire damage and has a Fire DoT. Like FSC, it used to have a
noticeable pause after the animation completed, but this, too, was eliminated in I7.
GFS can do up to five ticks of additional Fire damage.

Recommendation: I’d suggest taking GFS for the same reasons as
Incinerate. In the late game, Incinerate and GFS will take a significant role in your
battles with powerful single foes. Early on, I quickly make Scorch/FS/Incin my
single-target attack chain. When GFS comes along, its easy to change to
FS/Incin/GFS. Regardless of which single-targets you take, GFS and Incin are
going to be the best damage-dealers.

[ QUOTE ]
Circ (and others),

27) Brute Attacks do Taunt.

This may be correct, but I wonder why Brutes get Tanker inherent (I'm assuming that it is a version of Gauntlet that is producing the Taunt effect) as well as their own Brute inherent.


[/ QUOTE ]
well, i believe Brute "gauntlette" is single target, not an AoE, so there is a difference between the two.

of course, once you have an Aura and Taunt (or Provoke), its not like you need a boatload of aggro to hit the cap, so single-target "gauntlette" might end up being just as effective in the long run.

i wanted to add this here, since the original thread has long since fled the Tanker forum.

based on my testing with the Invincibility for Tankers, i believe the recent Invincibility patch has changed Invincibility to provide an unenhanced 6% DEF for the first foe plus 1.5% DEF per additional foe in melee range up to 10 foes.

or, with three even-level DefBuf SO's, 9.36% DEF against one foe and 30.42% DEF against ten foes

if you are interested in the raw data, you can retrieve a data file with all my test runs here:

Invincibility Testing Results.pdf.

note the raw data is on pages two and three. for the numerically inclined, feel free ot offer alternative interpretations.

[ QUOTE ]
Some of you may have experienced this but were too preoccupied with the whole dying thing


[/ QUOTE ]
hee hee ... who says the Devs don't have a sense of humour :-)

I guess i never posted this here, but my I6 Guide is here:

Invulnerability/Fire Guide for I6

[ QUOTE ]
Would INVINC be less bugged with no def and to hit buff enhancements in it?

[/ QUOTE ]
unfortunately, no ... Invinc wit zero enhancements today will still be decently more powerful than it will be when they drop it to 1.5 and you three-slot it with DefBuf.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Epic Pools: I understand it's subject to personal preference, but what do you think of the Pyre Mastery pool vs Energy Mastery (or the one with Conserve Energy)?


[/ QUOTE ]
i've actually tried both in different builds. if you're having endurance problems, Conserve Power is something a lot of folk use. personally, i've never had that many end problems, and used CP so rarely i eventually repsec-ed out of Energy and picked up Pyre. a lot of folk swear by CP, tho ... so you may have to guage its usefulness depending on your own endurance profile.

I did like Pyre both for Char and for the ranged attacks. if you can fit all three in, by all means go for it! it felt a lot more fun, even if it concentrated my build a bit heavily in Fire damage - a consideration in the late game where you do find a number of Fire resistant foes.

oddly enough, in I6 i ended up dropping my Epic pool in favor of grabbing Aid Self.

[ QUOTE ]

My question to you is your take on Taunt (yes, I realize the topic is controversial). I am beginning to think that Taunt may be useful to me during most of my career, but once I am able to get a ranged attack like fire blast or LBE, I could substitute it. I also see Fire Ball as potentially acting as an AoE Taunt which can affect more mobs (15 I think is the limit) and with damage to boot!


[/ QUOTE ]
i don't know if i can give good advice on this one ... i've always kept Taunt in my builds and just haven't found myself terribly effective without it. i know many tankers feel they perform just as well without Taunt and some also take the strategy you're considering - i.e. taking an offensive Epic to supplant or replace Taunt. it might be worth posting the question in the Tankers forum to see what replies you get from the folk more practiced without Taunt.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think it makes sense for us to have to apply different tactics in different situations, but it becomes frustrating when its not clear the particulars have changed.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here is probably difference. I was teaming with a group which included some memebers I knew very well. Our tatics as a group handled Nightstar better.


[/ QUOTE ]
the whole point of trying to catalog AV performance of tanks is to try to bring some understanding to why tanks are experiencing such vastly different results in tanking the same AV's. certainly some of this is due to teaming, but i think you underestimate the effect of simple buffs on outcome.

a +2 AV battling an Inv tank with 3-slotted Invinc/UY/TH is likely to have about 90% accuracy against the tank. give that same tank 3-slotted Fortitude and that drops to 40%. that one simple buff is going to have a huge impact on the tank's ability to tank the AV. so it might be a little less surprising that, on the tougher AV battles, tanks perform noticably better when Empaths are included on the team, as compared to the inclusion of other types of Defenders/Controllers.

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When properly fortified, I could tank quite well. The time that I wasn't, I died very quickly once the group was engaged. In fact, I'm pretty sure it provoked a few "wow"s. If properly buffed, I still took damage (sometimes into the red) from the alpha, but could cure it through either hoarfrost or the two emps.


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just for clarification, AettThorn, do you mean fortified literally, as in "Fortitude"? i would definitely be worried if you can _only_ survive with a buff of the magnitude of Fortitude.

i'm not sure everybody really realizes just how powerful some of these buffs are. what seems like a "little help" can sometimes really be a lot more help than is immediately obvious. so we have to be careful about differentiating between our capabilities without external influence vs our capabilities with help. its fine if we can reach greater levels of tanking with help, but we should be able to do some tanking without help.

last i checked, Fortitude 3-slotted with DefBuf is equivalent to having 20 foes in melee range of Invincibility (3-slotted with DebBuf, assuming a 1.5% base DEF per foe).

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Question: Should a /fire tanker get an attack with status effect? I'm thinking of Air Superiority. I have AS now but am thinking of dropping it as I'm going the Boxing/Tough route. AS works well with my other attacks that do only DoT. With lowered defenses, I've found AS helping in keeping at least one mob on the floor.

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attacks with status effects provide amazing utility, and AS is actually one of the best. it has a very high probability of knockdown, much higher than boxing's chance for disorient. i have boxing on my Brute and, while it does disorient occassionally, its not as reliable as AS. as you point out, one of Fire Melee's weaknesses is a lack of status effects so if you're specifically looking for a status effect, AS is probably the way to go.

of course, the fun part is fitting it in! if you're thinking about getting Tough, you have to take Boxing or Kick anyway. if you're thinking about getting Fly, AS is an easy pre-req choice. its a bit trickier if you aren't heading for Fly - it might some juggling to squeeze in a non-Fly travel power, Tough, and AS in a build, at least in the early (&lt;25) levels.

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Does need abit of editing though, references to I5 need to be updated to I6 and/or I6 data provided. Does that make sense? I'm trying to say that alot of the wording needs to be changed to a "I5 lowered this, and ED under I6 makes it even lower" format.


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hee hee! yeah, that makes sense ... i didn't even notice until you pointed it out!

well, i can always get those fixed in the next version! :-)

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The suggestion was made that Tanks use more flexibility in their tactics since there are no longer one or two tactics that works all of the time.

The counter suggestion is that Tanks split into two roles, one concentrating on their primary and one concentrating on their secondary and fulfilling two different roles, depending on the tank.


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okay, to be reasonable, the first suggestion is entirely fair. i still think there's some difficulty in doing this, because i think its hard to recognize what tactics apply when - but i'm also arrogant enough that i think i know a decent amount about Paragon City. i'd be begrudgingly willing to be told otherwise! :-)

that said, i still like the second idea. in fact, i've felt the approach to "fixing" tanks in I5 and I6 was too restrictive. i.e. the very fact that tanks were over-powered in I3/I4 accommodated a wide range of tanker playstyles. it really feels like I5/I6 took the same tactic for "fixing" all tanker AT's (i.e. strong in some situations, not so strong against others, varying the strengths between the primaries), essentially eliminating a lot of those playstyles. i'd love to see some effort made to develop primaries that supported different tanker playstyles (e.g. skranker vs meatshield) rather than just allowing different tanks to tank in different circumstances. i'd even be okay with a promise that a future AT would look into this and its too late to support that kind of variety with the Tanker AT as it stands! or to be told its just not possible.

on that note, humour me on a strange tangent - i really hate sitting at the airport at a gate looking at the departure time at the desk showing 10:30am when its already 10:45am and there's no plane at the gate. if there's bad news, i'd rather just know ... it may be frustrating to hear "tanks will never be able to do that" or "we can't balance the rest of the AT's around giving tankers X and Y". heck, even "our analysis just doesn't show that tankers aren't being defeated more than than Z" would be better than "tankers are performing the way we want right now". it just sounds too much like "your flight is still scheduled for an on time departure".

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What I see here is that you want a Tanker to perform equally well in a team of Scrappers and Blasters as they would in a team that consisted of a variety of ATs including Defenders and Controllers. The problem with that is Defs and Conts would no longer be needed at all. If further CC and damage mitigation are not necessary, why recruit an AT that is going to be useless and/or bored in your party?

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so, let me turn your argument around a bit ... should an Empath only be able to heal half as much if they're on a team without a Tanker or Controller? should they be able to perform equally well in a team of Scrappers and Blasters as they can in a team that consists of a variety of AT's including Tankers and Controllers? personally, as somebody who has a number of Empaths, i don't think i've ever found a team i couldn't contribute to, regardless of composition.

there's a world of difference between "needing" a certain AT on a team and "gaining benefit" from the inclusion of an AT on a team. there are some tankers who right now feel they can't even fill their basic role without needing a certain type of teammate. personally, that's not my experience, tho it _is_ my experience that there are circumstances where that's true. i know there are folk out there who don't even feel that's the case. that's part of why the debate is so heated right now.

but, maybe i'm putting words in the OP's mouth, but i don't think its wrong to say the objective of the post was to find a "baseline" role that Tanks should be able to fill in I6 regardless of who they are teamed with. teammates should certainly contribute in their individual way to making that role easier or strengthening the role, but there has to be a neutral starting point.