The_Spad_EU

Chilling Embrace beats taunt without any question at all.

It may not be ranged, but it offers a foe -spd -recharge as well as a 14% foe Damage Debuff, all of which equates to an effective 38% RES vs All against even level mobs.

Take CE, 2 slot it with End reducers.

Hoarfrost doesn't appear to be affected by this change - it was ~3200HP with 3 Heals before the patch and ~3200 with 3 Heals after the patch. Maybe it was already at the cap or something.

Anyway, Ice is now the second best Tanker overall after Stone in Granite and quite possibly better than Stone pre-granite.

Does this mean that we could be in the truely astounding position that Ice is actually the best Tank for the first half of the game? Regardless, I'm not celebrating, it's like Wreck (and Circeus before him) said, given the state of the AT in general any comparisons right now are like 4 people arguing over who's the most homeless - sure, you might be the "best", but you still don't have a house.

Just did some quick tests - 11.25% RES per mob. So that's 8 mobs you need for capped RES, probably 10 or so to make sure you hit 8 of them.

Mire doesn't have a Dam RES component.

Light Form is just MoG/Unstoppable by any other name.

Eclipse is now very powerful, but you can't perma it any more, it doesn't offer any Mez resistance and its RES buff is dependant on having enough mobs around you to hit it with.

I think the base is about 5% RES per mob, so you need to hit 17 mobs to cap your RES, which you can't do as the AoE limit is 10 (Unless Eclipse is excluded like Energy Absorption/Invincibility were).

Even with six RES SOs in Eclipse & 10 mobs you can only hit 83% RES ((5% + 66%) * 10). 3 Recharges will get you down to 154 second recharge - 60 seconds of downtime - with 3-slotted Hasten you can get that down another 20 seconds or so.

You really need at least one Accuracy enahancement, to make sure you can get the most out of the power. Of course this means you really need about 15 mobs around you to hit the cap (Or lots of luck - or should I say Insight ).

So really, you have to really balance recharge with RES with accuracy. 2 RES + 3 Recharge + 1 acc will give you 70% RES with a 60 second downtime (less with hasten) and a good ToHit. 3 RES + 2 Rechg + 1 acc will give you 78.5% RES with a 90 second downtime.

All in all, while this change makes Warshades *the* AT for Psi Tanking, we're still by no means Uber and still lack any kind of Mez protection outside of teaming with controllers.

On a side note, shut the hell up before the devs hear you

Edited for accuracy.

Actually that has nothing to do with the reason why Invincibility now gives a lower buff. Energy Absorption, which had the same change of numbers (14->10) still gives the same overall buff.

Invincibility was bugged from the start, this "fix" has been in the pipeline for quite a while now.

Question is, have they fixed the Invincibility bug yet? Or is it still pending?

This would be my EM/EA build if I had to make it using those powers in that order (Disclaimer: I don't know EM that well).

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Exported from Ver: 1.7.0.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://home.comcast.net/~SherkSilver/index.html)
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Name:
Level: 41
Archetype: Brute
Primary: Energy Melee
Secondary: Energy Aura
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01) --> Barrage==> EndRdx(1) Acc(3)
01) --> Kinetic Shield==> EndRdx(1) DefBuf(7) DefBuf(7) DefBuf(9)
02) --> Energy Punch==> EndRdx(2) Acc(9) Dmg(11) Dmg(11) Dmg(13)
04) --> Bone Smasher==> EndRdx(4) Acc(13) Dmg(15) Dmg(15) Dmg(17)
06) --> Combat Jumping==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Dampening Field==> DmgRes(8) DmgRes(17) DmgRes(19)
10) --> Entropy Shield==> EndRdx(10)
12) --> Build Up==> Rechg(12)
14) --> Super Jump==> Jump(14)
16) --> Energy Protection==> DmgRes(16) DmgRes(19) DmgRes(21)
18) --> Whirling Hands==> EndRdx(18) Acc(21) Dmg(23) Dmg(23) Dmg(25)
20) --> Energy Cloak==> EndRdx(20) DefBuf(25) DefBuf(27) DefBuf(27)
22) --> Power Shield==> EndRdx(22) DefBuf(29) DefBuf(29) DefBuf(31)
24) --> Total Focus==> EndRdx(24) Acc(31) Dmg(31) Dmg(33) Dmg(33)
26) --> Stun==> EndRdx(26) Acc(33)
28) --> Energy Drain==> Rechg(28) Rechg(34) Rechg(34)
30) --> Hasten==> Rechg(30) Rechg(34) Rechg(36)
32) --> Energy Transfer==> EndRdx(32) Acc(36) Dmg(36) Dmg(37) Dmg(37)
35) --> Conserve Power==> EndRdx(35) Rechg(37) Rechg(39) Rechg(39)
38) --> Overload==> DefBuf(38) DefBuf(39) DefBuf(40) Rechg(40) Rechg(40)
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01) --> Sprint==> EndRdx(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Acc(1)
01) --> Fury==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Rechg(2)
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[ QUOTE ]
I've played some with my Dominator now, only lvl 5 but its great fun
Mind/Ene is really cool, and i can't wait to get even higher and get even more powerful skills.
But one thing, dose anyone know of a good slotting guide? because i'am feeling like i don't know where to slot, and so far i've just slotted where i feel it may be good...
And since there is no slotting/skill Planner out for CoV? yet i'am having a hard time to choose..

[/ QUOTE ]

This one: http://home.comcast.net/~SherkSilver/ is also up to date for CoV

[ QUOTE ]
I have a tactic with my weakened Brute with his 3 DO's in his defences and that's to let everyone else take the aggro, because not only are the shields weak they're totally ineffective a +1 minion hits me for 45 with shields on...strange I think that's hard...Shields off a +1 minion hits me for 45. At least it's not an endurance drain

[/ QUOTE ]

Energy Aura shields are DEF, not RES. Ther reduce the *chance* of being hit, not the damage you take. They still suck though

[ QUOTE ]
How does it stack up against scrapper sets?

I'm curious. En/En brute is my first villain and had to be this because of concept. Brute is not a direct transplant of the tank, just the nearest approximation. Therefore I wouldn't expect it to be as good at tanking (though I would expect better at hitting things).

[/ QUOTE ]

On average worse than Super Reflexes, which is the weakest of the Scrapper sets.

[ QUOTE ]
So... ice was replaced by even worst set
I believe that if you had taken hoarfrost into acount , ICE would be 100% beter than EA... ice... the weakest of the tank sets...

Im gonna stick with my EA brute , but i admit that those numbers are big deception for me, i was realy expecting a good defence set from EA ! No taunt aura , no self heal , only 2 endurance recovery powers that come to late :/

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget the stealth.

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[ QUOTE ]
vs S/L/N/F/C (Without Overload)
DEF: 23.3% RES: 8.8%
Over 30 seconds, will average 1022.7168 damage

vs E (Without Overload)
DEF: 29.2% RES: 8.8%
Over 30 seconds, will average 796.7232 damage

[/ QUOTE ]
Just curious - where are the numbers from? I'm guessing somewhere on the US boards? (Sorry, been so busy I haven't had a chance to keep up with the US boards for a while now.)

[/ QUOTE ]

From several sources on the US boards as well as updated versions of the hero/villain planners. I haven't been able to confirm the RES yet, but the DEF looks about right from my limited testing.

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously Spad, Do you allways pick underpowered sets so you can moan about them? ;p

[/ QUOTE ]

I picked it for the challenge - unfortunately Cryptic don't think that it's a challenge (Same with Ice Armour, SR) and therefore nerf DEF sets equally or more that RES sets. Now I am very sure that my Brute is a challenge to play - and I've only played on the lowest difficulty so far. When I'm getting 2 shotted by a boss on Villainous difficulty, something is wrong.

I had fun today - A +2 Luddite Boss.

Without fail, 5 times in total, he 2 shotted me. Didn't miss once.

This is a standard boss - god help me when I come across anything more challenging.

Because the base value is only 5.75% - so 8% and 33% of it are virtually the same.

[ QUOTE ]
You'll need everything you can get and then some. Every armour optimally 3 slotted and Tough from the fighting pool in my case. This should roughly give you 26% defence to S/L/E/N/Psi

[/ QUOTE ]

If 26% DEF is "everything you need" then apparently you're playing a different game to the rest of us - what's your secret?

I've included the RES powers in my numbers - they offer a whoppping 8.8% RES when 3-slotted with SOs (or 7.18% with 3 TOs ).

I always use the default slot for ACC in brawl.

As for stamina, I am going to take it, but I might not need it being DM/EA as I have 2 end recovery powers and conserve power.

Stone is actually a tiny bit better off than Energy overall (Pre-granite), managing 19.5% DEF vs S/L/E/N/P, 8.8% RES vs S/L & 29.3% RES vs C/F.

However, the fact that you don't get any kind of Energy/Negative protection until Lv28 and no Cold/Fire protection until Lv20 makes life much harder during the early levels.

The following assumes even level SOs.

Assuming a 100 damage attack every 10 seconds by 14 even level minions - that's 4200 base damage in 30 seconds.

vs S/L/N/F/C (Without Overload)
DEF: 23.3% RES: 8.8%
Over 30 seconds, will average 1022.7168 damage

vs E (Without Overload)
DEF: 29.2% RES: 8.8%
Over 30 seconds, will average 796.7232 damage


Compare that to Ice Armour

vs S/L/E/N
Ice - RES: 14% DEF: 38.68%
Chilling Embrace slows mobs by 32%, so the base damage is only 3181.81 for Ice
Over 30 seconds, they would average 309.756 damage

vs C
Ice - RES: 90% DEF: 11.99%
Chilling Embrace slows mobs by 32%, so the base damage is only 3181.81 for Ice
Over 30 seconds, they would average 107.576 damage

vs F
Ice - RES: 32.125% + 14% DEF: 11.99%
Chilling Embrace slows mobs by 32%, so the base damage is only 3181.81 for Ice
Over 30 seconds, they would average 705.962% damage


And to SR

vs Melee (Without Elude)
DEF: 27.3%
Over 30 seconds, will average 953.4 damage

vs Ranged (Without Elude)
DEF: 27.3%
Over 30 seconds, will average 953.4 damage

vs AoE (Without Elude)
DEF: 46.8%
Over 30 seconds, will average 210 damage


My understanding is that Brutes are supposed to be 75% of a tanker. Now I know there's no Energy Aura in the Tanker sets, but it was Ice previously and they're both DEF sets, hence the comparison.

As you can see, against the majority of the damage in the game, Energy Aura brutes get beaten by SR scrappers - and that's not even taking into account Scrapfiance.

Right now I honestly don't notice any difference when my shields drop, compared to when they're running and, as I've already pointed out, the difference between 3 TOs and 3 SOs is very tiny. My only survival tactic right now is to wipe out the mobs before they can react - but as I discovered against a +1 Luddite boss today, that's little use when I can be 2-shotted

More data as and when I come up with it

Well I get them all the time in CoH - at least now they'll actually be useful drops.

Energy Aura

Kinetic Shield / Power Shield

Base DEF vs S/L/N/C/F = 12.5%

Slotted with 3 even level TOs = 14.38%

Slotted with 6 even level TOs = 16.25%

Slotted with 3 even level DOs = 16.25%

Slotted with 6 even level DOs = 19.75%

Slotted with 3 even level SOs = 19.50%

Slotted with 6 even level SOs = 20.63%

So the difference between 3 TOs and 3 SOs is getting hit 5 times in 100 attacks - at a cost of around 100,000 influence.

The thing to remember when starting an Ice/* Tanker is that Ice tanks function on DEFENCE, not RESISTANCE - so slot everything for Defence Debuffs not Damage Resistance. This isn't such a problem as it used to be, now that you cannot slot most of your DEF powers for RES (Glacial Armour being an exception - and that's only because it's bugged).

This guide is far from extensive, but it should help you decide which powers to take and which to throw away. Ouside of the Primary Pool, you will want Tough - it might only provide 23.6% RES when 3-slotted, but without it you'll have 0% RES (Chilling Embrace excluded).

Notes on Chilling Embrace. This power provides 38% pseudo RES vs All in melee range in the form of a 14% Damage Debuff and a 32% Recharge Debuff. However, this scales exceptionally badly against anything that isn't the same level as you, so don't rely on it too much. Note that because it's a mob debuff, it will also benefit everyone else on your team as well.

*** - Essential
** - Handy
* - Not so handy

Frozen Armor (+DEF [Smashing/Lethal], +RES [Cold/Fire])
Rating: ***
The staple of any Ice tanker's build, Frozen Armour is essential throughout the game as the vast majority of the damage you will receive is Smashing/Lethal. I've performed exactly one (proper level) mission without using it.
Recommended Slotting: 2xENDRED, 3xDEF

Hoarfrost (+RES [Toxic], +HP, +HEAL)
Rating: ***
Hoarfrost can be used in 2 different ways depending on the situation. It can either be used prior to combat to boost your maximum HP or it can be used in combat, for a massive healing boost (Around 50% of your HP unslotted). As of I5, you can no longer Perma Hoarfrost, but it is still an essential tool for your survival.
Recommended Slotting: 3xRCHG, 3xHEAL

Chilling Embrace (-Foe SPD, Foe -RECHARGE, Foe -DMG, +PBAoE Taunt)
Rating: ***
Chilling embrace is a bit of a double edged sword during the early levels. It slows foes down, making them easy to tank, but it also drains endurance very rapidly, which leaves you in danger of running out mid-battle. Once you've got your end management in hand, it can be very handy for holding aggro and slowing your attackers. As of I5, it also provides a 14% Damage Debuff (Base value against even level minions) to all mobs that it hits - this is essential to keeping you alive. Be aware that the effectiveness of both the Slow and Damage Debuff drop off rapidly as the relative level of the mobs increases - in addition, some mobs will resist the Slow & Damage Debuff.
Recommended Slotting: 2xENDRED

Wet Ice (+DEF [All but Psychic], +RES [Cold], +RES [Status Effects])
Rating: ***
The holy grail of the Ice Armours - Wet Ice offers near total status effect protection, which has only ever failed me twice, both times under extreme bombardment. With Wet Ice running you will be all but immune to holds, stuns, disorients & immobilisations. Wear this like a second skin and never take it off. As of I5, Wet Ice provides only 1% DEF and cannot be slotted with DEF enhancements.
Recommended Slotting: 1xENDRED,

Permafrost (+RES [Cold/Fire/Slow])
Rating:
Totally and utterly useless for the vast majority of the game. Not worth taking for any reason. Note that I5 has added Slow RES to Permafrost, however, it is still largely useless.
Recommended Slotting: 3xRES

Icicles (Lethal Damage [DoT], +PBAoE Taunt)
Rating: *
Looks nice, but does sub-par damage at a fairly high endurance cost. Really not the best choice of power for an already end-heavy powerset.
Recommended Slotting: 2xENDRED, 1xACC, 3xDMG

Glacial Armor (+DEF [Energy/Negative Energy], +RES [Cold])
Rating: **
Fairly ineffectual at first, Glacial Armour rapidly ramps up its usefulness as the number of energy and negative energy-wielding mobs increases (Council, CoT, Crey, Carnies, Malta, Praetorians, etc). Slot up as and when you can rather than as a priority and be aware of its longer than normal activation time, which can be a pain in the middle of combat.
Recommended Slotting: 2xENDRED, 3xDEF

Energy Absorption (+DEF [All but Psychic], Foe -END, Self +End)
Rating: **
Before Issue 5 went live, this was one of the most useful powers in the Ice Primary. It drains endurance from nearby foes, offering an 18.75% +DEF [All but Psychic] bonus for each mob drained capped at 5 mobs (93.75% Unslotted). However, now this has been changed dramatically to a 0.5% +DEF [All but Psychic] bonus for each mob drained capped at 14 mobs (7% unslotted). This makes it seemingly far less useful - however, that 7% is now 2/5 of your total DEF and essential if you want to stay alive. I5 has also added an Endurance Recovery element to EA, making it handy mid-battle. 2 recharge SOs will make it perma - Note that as with Wet Ice, it doesn't offer +DEF [Toxic]
Recommended Slotting: 1xENDRED, 2xRECHG, 3xDEF

Hibernate (+REGEN, +RECOVERY, Intangible, Immobilize)
Rating: *
Hibernate immobilizes you in a block of solid ice, rendering you invulnerable (Note that any DoT attacks in progress when you activate hibernate will continue to damage you). Your health regenerates rapidly and your end recovery is also slightly increased. Note that while you can Deactive powers while hibernating, you can't Activate any - so don't turn off all your armours if you're in the middle of combat. As of Issue 5, Hibernate is limited to 30 seconds of continuous use.
Recommended Slotting: 1xENDRED


Base Armour Effectiveness

All slotted numbers assume even level Single Origin Enhancements. All slotting is done based on the recommended slots above.

Frozen Armour
Smashing/Lethal: 17% DEF (26.96% slotted)
Cold: 30% RES
Fire: 30% RES

Wet Ice
Smashing/Lethal/Energy/Negative/Cold/Fire: 1% DEF
Cold: 30% RES

Glacial Armour
Energy/Negative: 17% DEF (26.96% slotted)
Cold: 30% RES

Energy Absorption (Per mob drained - Capped at 14 mobs)
Smashing/Lethal/Energy/Negative/Cold/Fire: 0.5% DEF (0.785% slotted)

Hoarfrost
Toxic: 20% RES


Maximum Defence Vaules assuming 14 mobs for Energy Absorption (Based on recommended slotting)

Smashing/Lethal/Energy/Negative: 25% DEF (38.68% slotted)
Cold/Fire: 8% DEF (11.99% Slotted)

Maximum Defence Vaules without Energy Absorption (Based on recommended slotting)

Smashing/Lethal/Energy/Negative: 18% DEF (27.69% Slotted)
Cold/Fire: 1% DEF

[ QUOTE ]
Problem I find is that 2 tanks is a pain for both tanks involved, as you get confusion about who is meant to be aggroing who and/or one tank doing most of the work while the other feels like a "reserve". For the rest of the team 2 tanks maybe be better but for the tank himself, it's solo all the way for happiness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Worse than that, the aggro won't be exlusive - you'll have overlap between the 2 tanks which will be a waste of a "taunt".