Sweetmeat

I have a baby Fire/Thermal who is 18, and I enjoyed her a lot when I was playing her. I think Fire has good synergy with Thermal as it gives you the ability to either buff the heck out of your team for team play or buff the heck out of your Imps for solo. Either way you can get the most out of your secondary with Fire.

Well one of the things I like best about my Earth/TA is having two AoE holds. With good recharge, one or the other can be up pretty often, giving you serious lockdown potential. I would go with Gravity Distortion Field. Especially since TA has no heal, the ability to stop all incoming damage to everyone for a time is a blessing.

Since you're not going to have propel, and damage can be a bit slow without it, I would look at proccing both Crushing field (2 procs) and Acid Arrow(2 procs). They don't help a great deal vs single targets, but they help a lot against large spawns.

If you think you are going to solo more than team, I would switch propel in for Poison Gas Arrow. I tried Poison Gas Arrow and even when I had it slotted up I was very unimpressed. Propel, on the other hand, when solo is AMAZING. On teams, things tend to die before you get the animation done, so it's less useful if you tend to team a lot.

Otherwise your build looks good. I would look at Cold for your APP, the extra slow from Frostbreath, and Hibernate as a panic button are both great for sets with no self heal.

To the OP:

Plant/Storm if you plan to solo at all before lvl 35ish. This build is actually great for both teams and solo, but of the two choices, Plant/Storm can solo well by lvl 10, Earth/Storm doesn't do damage till the mid to late 30s.

Earth/Storm if you team. After lvl 35, Earth/Storm becomes easily soloable, but before that, even with Veteran attacks and tons of procs it is marginal. On teams it is AMAZING.

On Stalagmites: Not even marginally mediocre. Stalagmites is a true gem of a control.

When I was playing my Fire/Rad regularly (several years ago) Flash Fires did often provoke an alpha strike during the animation. I was able to mitigate it a good deal by casting it at maximum range and using Smoke first. I don't know if it's changed since I was using it regularly.

OK a couple things:

Grav solo's really well with both Storm and Rad as secondaries, I am more partial to /Storm because Freezing Rain + Crushing Field + Snowstorm neuters a whole pile of bad guys. From lvl 16 onward it's a really powerful opener, so much so that Grav/Storm doesn't really need to use wormhole as an opener like most Grave builds do. The extra damage from Lightning Storm later on is just icing on the cake. Tornado can be used, but usually just on guys you've held with the single target hold, or guys you've pinned in a corner with Hurricane.

Part of the problem with lift may be the queuing you're talking about. Some holds and immobilizes have after the power is applied before they are recognized as contained. Lift activates fast enough that if you have it "queued" immediately after you are probably not getting containment for it, halving the damage you would do. I would try pausing after applying the hold or immobilize and see if it doesn't give you the bigger damage you are looking for.

Unicycle's build is pretty close to what I would go with as well. He's got the right timing and slotting for powers you'll want. I end up going with the Stone APP because Fissure + Seismic Smash are incredible supplements to your already strong control as well as doing great damage.

I tend to like combat jumping and super jump for most of my characters. With both Earthquake and Stalagmites as openers, I don't worry about being stealthed. If you really don't want to be seen on your opener, you can usually drop earthquake from around a corner. Wait three seconds and all your foes will be on the ground when you step around.

The only real downside to Plant/Storm is the heavy endurance issue. Despite slotting for endurance and going for + recovery in sets, you can still burn through your blue bar pretty fast. That said, it is incredibly powerful and a lot of fun. The only real issues I've had with it are a relatively slow kill speed on the last Lt or Boss standing, and the endurance issues in tough fights.

During your mid-30s the kill speed issue goes away, and you can have endurance under control around then as well if you work at it.

I prefer Hover with /Storm as well, which is why I would look at the Cold APP. I find that with my Grav/Storm, opening with Freezing Rain followed by the aoe Immobilize and Snow Storm ( all three with procs) then flying over the top of them with Lightning Storm so they are knocked back into the ground rather than away works really well. I find I only use Tornado to help clean up a tough boss now and then because of the tendency of Tornado to cause scatter, removing the bad guys from my little pocket of frozen gravatic death.

I think I tend to use wormhole a lot less than most Gravs because the strength of that three trick pony is enough to make finding a suitable corner near enough the mob for wormhole actually slows things down over just going with the standard opener. This is true for both solo and teams. I tend to hold wormhole as an ohh &*(^ button rather than a pull.

If you can learn when you should and shouldn't be using Tornado and Hurricane, then Grav/Storm is an excellent combo with great synergy.

Note: If you are primarily going to team, then go with lift. Otherwise, Propel is too good to be true. On teams, the mob tend to die before you finish casting it, but solo, it is really gratifying to see that thing slam the life out of some poor bloke. It sped up my early play considerably over most other controller primaries with their low damage output.

Despite the drawbacks to /TA mentioned earlier in the thread, one point made later trumps them. TA IS a lot of fun if you have enough control in your primary to carry it. Also the second single target hold, and the second AoE hold are both wonderful to have available when facing foes that are resistant to confuse, so the synergy of Plant/TA is particularly good in that respect.

I would go for it, it will end up being a lot of fun.

@ Oedipus Tex

I'm pretty firmly on the other side of the debate, so I think Arctic Air is a style thing. People with different play styles make different uses of their powers. In your hands Arctic Air is a must have power, in mine it's an agro-drawing endurance sink that forces me into a play style I don't enjoy if I am to make use of it. Thus the recommendation to drop one or the other.

When I was running Arctic Air on my Ice/Storm, I died MUCH more often, and didn't defeat the mobs any faster. Thus I don't like it much. I have zero problem keeping my teams alive without it either, so different strokes for different folks.

Some really strong soloers I've had are:

Illusion/Storm, Plant/Storm, and Fire/Rad. All three of these can be built to solo pretty well from early on, and really well even before getting pets at 32.

One thing I tend to do as a controller soloing is to try and take advantage of procs in powers that will be hitting a lot of bad guys. With enough of them incorporated you can end up softening up the bad guys so that each of them only needs a little bit of individual attention to put them down.

Of course if you've just started the game, you won't have any veteran attack powers, so you will need at least one pool attack(Air Superiority or Flurry are my favorites) to help put mobs down. You can usually respec out of these in the 40s when you get APP attack powers. Actually be new to the game, I would probably go with Illusion/Storm or Fire/Rad as those two would be least reliant on veteran attacks for damage.

OK if you tend to solo, you would do much better going with fire or cold for your app. Even with veteran attacks, your damage output with your build is REALLY REALLY low.

Ice Slick, used well is your best control. Period. The thing is you want to cast it from cover so that no one gets a chance to shoot at you before they start flopping around. You can cast it around corners, from behind pillars, etc, so it should be pretty rare that the bad guys get an alpha off on you. If you had more damage, then a lot of the mobs wouldn't get many other attacks either. Odds are if you are on a team where someone is laying down cages over your slick, there is enough control going on that no one is getting hit anyway. It's still one of the best alpha negators in the game when cast from cover. After that, caging over it has its own appeal if you take one of the APP aoe attacks.

I would get rid of superspeed or fly, and put Ice Slick back in. Then I would look at the Fire APP and get Fireball, Firebolt, and Fireshield. Or you can go cold and get Icebolt, Frost Breath, Hibernate and Ice Storm. I would also ditch either Arctic Air, or Shiver, and pick up Chillblaine.

Your control wouldn't suffer at all, and your ability to mitigate damage by defeating bad guys before they can defeat you goes way up. Also, snowstorm is going to be pretty optional with all the other cold powers you'll be hitting stuff with, and it's a huge agro magnet, so I would keep it in, but wouldn't use it on anything but nemesis, or other mobs that ignore knockdown.

Just from thoughts from someone who plays Ice a lot and loves it.

I know Local likes to use super speed for the full invisibility, but I really prefer to operate /Storm from Hover. It solves your knock back problem from Lightning Storm. By placing it directly above the mobs, they are knocked straight down into the ground rather than away. You still need Frostbite if you want to make regular use of Tornado, but I tend to pull that out later in the fight, after Ice Slick, Freezing Rain, and Shiver have been applied to neuter the alpha and mitigate the damage you will take after Frostbiteing over the Ice Slick.

Also I don't use Arctic Air, because I tend to play VERY aggressively, so I have endurance issues if I run it, even with good slotting for endurance and recovery. It's the ranged approach to Ice/Storm rather than the melee approach. I took the cold app for Ice Bolt, Frost Breath, and Hibernate.

Ice Storm is nice too, but usually most things are dead before I end up fitting it into my attack chain. It can be cast around a corner just like Ice Slick and Freezing Rain though so it can be handy for killing a group of mobs without ever being in their line of sight. If you can see even one of them, you can use Frostbite to keep them in the killing zone. Then either Tornado and spam Frostbite, or wait 10 seconds and fly around the corner and drop a Lightning Storm over their heads while they are helplessly flopping around, then service them one at a time till dead. There are a lot of ways to work it while being safe on the alpha and mitigating incoming fire.

OK here is the build I'm currently running. Enhances are mostly directed at recovery and ranged defense, with some accuracy and recharge thrown in. I may respec out of Ice Storm and get Fly instead, but mostly she runs around in Steaming Mists and Sprint...shes slow getting to the mission, but she's loaded for bear when she arrives.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Ice Control
Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Ice Mastery

Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1: Block of Ice Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(3), Lock-Rchg/Hold(5), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(7), Lock-%Hold(9), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(19)
Level 1: Gale Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Chilblain Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(5), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 4: O2 Boost H'zdH-Heal/EndRdx(A), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(40), Heal-I(45)
Level 6: Swift Flight-I(A)
Level 8: Shiver TmpRdns-Acc/Slow(A), TmpRdns-Acc/EndRdx(9)
Level 10: Steamy Mist S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def(11), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(11), S'fstPrt-ResKB(45), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(48), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(50)
Level 12: Ice Slick RechRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(15)
Level 14: Health Heal-I(A), Mrcl-Heal(25), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(50)
Level 16: Freezing Rain UndDef-DefDeb/Rchg(A), UndDef-Rchg/EndRdx(17), UndDef-Rchg(17), LdyGrey-DefDeb/EndRdx(23), LdyGrey-%Dam(25), Posi-Dam%(29)
Level 18: Hover Flight-I(A), Flight-I(19)
Level 20: Stamina EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Hurricane EndRdx-I(A)
Level 24: Snow Storm EndRdx-I(A), ImpSwft-Dam%(46)
Level 26: Hasten RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 28: Thunder Clap Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(29), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(37), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(37), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(43), Stpfy-KB%(48)
Level 30: Frostbite TotHntr-Acc/Rchg(A), TotHntr-EndRdx/Immob(31), TotHntr-Acc/EndRdx(31), TotHntr-Immob/Acc(31), TotHntr-Dam%(34), TotHntr-Acc/Immob/Rchg(37)
Level 32: Jack Frost ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(A), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(34), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 35: Tornado BldM'dt-Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(36), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(36), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 38: Lightning Storm Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(39), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Ice Blast Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Frost Breath Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(46), Posi-Dmg/Rng(46), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 47: Hibernate Numna-Heal/Rchg(A)
Level 49: Ice Storm Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(A), AirB'st-Dmg/Rchg(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
8% DamageBuff(Smashing)
8% DamageBuff(Lethal)
8% DamageBuff(Fire)
8% DamageBuff(Cold)
8% DamageBuff(Energy)
8% DamageBuff(Negative)
8% DamageBuff(Toxic)
8% DamageBuff(Psionic)
3% Defense(Smashing)
3% Defense(Lethal)
4.25% Defense(Fire)
4.25% Defense(Cold)
20.8% Defense(Energy)
20.8% Defense(Negative)
3% Defense(Psionic)
3% Defense(Melee)
27.4% Defense(Ranged)
5.5% Defense(AoE)
1.8% Max End
2.5% Enhancement(Held)
39% Enhancement(Accuracy)
3% Enhancement(Stun)
18.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
5% Enhancement(Immobilize)
12% FlySpeed
68.7 HP (6.75%) HitPoints
12% JumpHeight
12% JumpSpeed
Knockback (Mag -4)
Knockup (Mag -4)
MezResist(Confused) 2.5%
MezResist(Held) 7.45%
MezResist(Immobilize) 2.5%
MezResist(Sleep) 2.5%
MezResist(Stun) 2.5%
MezResist(Terrorized) 2.5%
19.5% (0.33 End/sec) Recovery
14% (0.59 HP/sec) Regeneration
10% Resistance(Smashing)
10% Resistance(Lethal)
11.6% Resistance(Fire)
11.6% Resistance(Cold)
10% Resistance(Energy)
10% Resistance(Negative)
10% Resistance(Toxic)
10% Resistance(Psionic)
12% RunSpeed

Just as a curiosity, why stop at 33 rather than 35?

It seems like you've already gotten pretty good advice so far.

As for Hurricane - it is very situational for me, but when I want it I am really glad I have it. Especially against Nemesis and other mobs that are resistant to stuns and confuse, it gives you another form of control.

Tornado - I almost never pull this out, but it's great against AVs, and for the occasional Hurricane trap - pocket of doom.

Assault - My Ill/Storm had some serious endurance issues before she was IOed out, and she can still run through it when I pull out all the stops. Running Assault would mean you will have to watch carefully what you are able to use - which I never really liked. Also I don't think PA gets anything out of it, so it doesn't really help that much.

I like Steaming Mists instead of Improved Invisibility for exactly the reasons Local brought up. Honestly it is a more generally useful power for a similar cost.

Take Deceive. Really just think of it as an additional Hold with fringe benefits. It comes in handy in so many ways it's hard to imagine not having it.

Thunderclap is not generally very handy. It's so-so, but you are leaving out Steaming Mists and Deceive, and taking this ... If you do take it, then go Earth Epic and get Fissure. The two have about the same range, and they will stack for a mag 4 stun, which is handy. Add Seismic smash to the mix and you have a real winner. Earth can also give a self heal, which you won't usually need, but can be great when you do need one.

If you are going to go with the Fire APP, I would look at taking the single target blast earlier. I realize you have at least one veteran attack, but my Ill/Storm uses the single target blast from the Ice APP constantly. The thing is, you want fast, reliable damage to help kill the mobs that PA has slivered. Spectral Wounds goes a long way, and the Veteran attacks help too, but the single target blast is the finisher.

Take home, Hurricane and Tornado are too good when you want them to not take, but don't slot either heavily. Assault and Superior Invisibility would probably be better replaces with Deceive and Steaming Mists. Take the single target blast earlier. Otherwise, you should be fine, and Illusion/Storm really is one of the most fun and most powerful builds out there, so however you do it, enjoy the ride

There's definitely a change. I put in some bids a week ago for some lvl 35 Mako's Bite recipes at somewhat higher than the going rate at the time, and none of them have filled. There have been very few sales during the week, and the prices have gone from the neighborhood of 1-2 million to 5-10 million on the few recipes that did get posted. So the supply is down, and the prices are climbing fast. I notice a similar result for lvl 35 Crushing Impact recipes today as well ... Very few recent sales, an the prices raising dramatically over the week for the few sales made. It's making it expensive to work on my 32 Scrapper, and her sets are badly in need of an upgrade (they are all lvl 20 sets right now). I also notice a dearth of recipes in the high 40s as well when trying to get some recipes for my lvl 45 Tank nothing I'm looking for for sale, and nothing having been sold in a long time. Several recipes I wanted no longer even had a history. I can't recall this being common ever before.

I would go Earth/Storm. You get great debuffs, and great control. By lvl 16 your Tanks will be doing good damage because of Freezing Rain, and in the late game all three of you will be able to put out good damage while being completely safe at all times. Or you could go with a blaster, pretty much any type, and kill things off before they get a chance to harm the tanks. I like Ice/Electric for the three holds, makes you sort of a blaptroller. Increasing the safety for your tanks against really dangerous foes while killing things really fast.

One thing I have noticed, though not often, is that when both Earthquake and Freezing Rain are in the same area at the same time, a few mobs will be bounced out of the area. I think this is because when both proc kd at the same time on the same mob, the magnitude goes over 1, making it into knockback. I can't think of another explanation that fits the circumstances.

Also one time I was invited to this team in AE doing large groups of kd resistant purple bosses, and the tanks were upset with my FR because the mobs were trying to get out of the radius, and causing them to become scattered. These were Fire Tanks, and my being the only one on the team at the time actually mitigating any damage at all, I was a little surprised. I tried it their way and they all died, so I went back to using it and got booted. Other than that I've never had anyone ask me not to use either power. EVER.

Of the two suggested builds, Freem's is pretty close to what I would look at. I've never met a Fortitude I didn't like, so having it up as often as possible is going to keep you from having to worry about the two most likely agro sources in the party. If you IO out some of those powers, you can get even more millage out of them. Having the AoE Hold and Worm hole up often will also be a major mitigator of incoming damage, but those I find are often situational. You should be able to manage with single target holds, Fortitude, and an occasional heal.

The AoE immobilize is going to be very useful or not useful at all depending on your timing and who you have on your team. I used it every pull but that was with a storm controller, and I paired it with Freezing Rain and Snowstorm. Since you are Emp you are going to find it much more situational.

I think MentalMaden is probably right, it sounds like a herding tank complaining because you've stolen his glory. If you have a good tank, you can wait till he's got them grouped around him to throw them down. Without a tank, EQ + Freezing Rain from around a corner is one of the strongest openers in the game. It's going to depend on the situation as to when you want to use them. If the tank can't survive the alpha easily on his own, then you throw it earlier than if the tank can manage to group them up first without being hurt too badly. If there's no tank, then Stalagmites might be a better opener. The nice thing about Earth in general and Earth/Storm in particular is the large number of options for getting the ball rolling. It really lets you tailor your opener for the situation at hand to a much larger degree than most sets. It's just going to take some experimentation and experience to figure out what will work best for any given team.

Actually Gravity/Cold wouldn't be bad. One of Gravity's big problems in holes in mitigation on teams, and the Cold Shields go a long way to remedying that. Solo it would great, since Gravity is pretty strong solo for anything short of a 4 man spawn. Grav Distortion Field + Snowstorm is pretty effective in neutering the mobs once the alpha is taken care of. You can do that by running the fog power, and dragging your shielded Singularity through the mob letting it suck the alpha. Then you slap Grav Distortion Field and Snowstorm on them, then proceed to Infridgidate, Hold, Propel them to death. Once you get the Freezing Rain equivalent you can open with that followed by Grav Distortion and Snowstorm( this worked great for Grav/Storm, even on teams.) If things get really hot, you have the aoe hold and wormhole for backup.

OK I tried to make a build that would be optimal for what you want and it was really weak for play. It ends up wasting slots in powers that wouldn't need them if your control powers were properly slotted in the first place. I almost posted it, but really it's terrible. It would suffice on easy missions with a good team, but wouldn't cut it on difficult missions with other players having suboptimal builds as well.

Honestly, Grav/Emp would do best to focus on Single Target Hold, Aoe Immobilize, Aoe Hold, Hasten, Wormhole, and Fortitude. Get all of those 6 slotted, with good recharge on everything but the Immobilize, and you shouldn't need to do much healing. If Fortitude is properly slotted, you can keep it up on two people at a time and pretty much anyone on the team can tank for you when they have it on. Once you learn when you want to use each of those powers, even Gravity will be effective, backed up with good buffs, and the occasional heal. If you concentrate on healing, rather than mitigating damage in the first place, I suspect you will find you have more agro than you can survive. Of course that could be good roleplay, with Jesus repeatedly dieing a martyr.

OK I didn't think everyone posting on the boards would be posting Lightning Rod in their builds if they couldn't actually take it. I'll take another look at the power tree tonight and see if it's still borked. I'm not going to worry about it though.

Thanks for the replies.

I made a new SD/Electric Melee tank this morning, and I was looking at the power trees. It looked to me like Thunderclap and Lightning Rod were replaced by two different powers in slots 8 and 9. Mids Hero builder has Thunderclap and Lightning Rod listed as the 8 and 9 tier powers for tank electric melee. I was running late for work, so I didn't take time to note exactly what the powers were, but I was really disappointed when it looked like I wouldn't get Lightning Rod.

All the builds I've seen here in the forum show Lightning Rod as the tier 9 Electric melee power...is there something buggy about my baby tank? Has anyone else noticed this when they made an electric melee tank?

Any insights into what might be up would be appreciated.

I don't tend to go overboard on procs in most builds either, but Earth/TA hasn't got a lot of options for actually hurting things. Without procs, you could take pool attacks slotted for damage, and maybe get the same dps out of them, but you would lose power choices, which lowers your control, which ultimately makes you more squishy. So if you want damage as Earth/TA, slotting procs into powers you will be using every fight anyway is an elegant, efficient way to lay start hurting your foes without having to target them and click an attack. It really speeds up the pace at which you can solo.

As for slotting: Earthquake I think I used 3 undermined defense, 2 lady grey( including proc ) and the knockback set proc. That gives max recharge, good end reduction, and some def debuff, plus two procs, and Earthquake lasts quite a while so the procs fire several times... in addition to doing what it's supposed to.

Acid Arrow does have sort of a disappointing area of effect, but if you try killing a purple boss without it, you will still be whittling away at him when it comes time to log for the night. If you want to hurt something, you Acid Arrow it. It has a good enough recharge, that with proper enhancement, you can reapply it for each hard target you get. Also with a couple procs in it, it will often give a nice alpha damage spike on whatever it is you're trying to drop next. Think of it like a single target debuff with a little bonus instead of an AoE and you'll be much happier with it.

Obscure,

Your build to 38 is nearly identical to mine, so from my perspective it seems you've got a good grasp on what you want and what you like. I took the cold APP for Hibernate and the single target blast. I didn't opt for either of the aoes since it's rare for me to have aoe containment. I tend to play my Ill/Storm in terms of servicing single targets as quickly as possible while my pets and Lightning Storm keep things off my back. It works really well solo, and on teams I just focus more on nullifying dangerous opponents and let the rest of the team take out the yard trash.

I'm glad you're enjoying it.