Starsman
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Posts
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Joined
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Ah, I loved this animation. I had a cool Martial Arts character I used to love, a Scrapper with a batmanish theme called Shadowing.
I deleted him after this animation got deleted. I was ANGRY about the change. Regret it mainly because it was a cool name and I would had loved to retain it. Last time I attempted to get it, it was taken on all servers.
On similar note: I also used to play an Ice/Axe tanker that I didnt delete but stopped playing entirely the day they "nerfed" knockback. These two actions taken by myself are reasons why I respect the Cottage Rule so much.
Anyways, back to Storm Kick. For a long time, after the change, 5th Column was still using it. I am not sure if they still do. Not sure if the Council also keept using it since they are technically newer critters (not just a rename of the old, although a lot of copy pasting was involved.) -
Quote:There are many things that can be done. My personal proposal is to turn Rage into a Toggle. Lower the boost to non-Smashing types to 40%, and apply the player a -res debuff (resistable) of -15% res.Originally Posted by Siolfir
I haven't read that thread, but the easiest way I can think of is to only have Rage boost Smashing damage instead of all damage types, or buff the other types a smaller amount and/or for a shorter duration, like Embrace of Fire/old Fiery Embrace. With that change Rage affects every attack in Super Strength plus a few outside of it at full strength, but it would lessen the effect on Gloom, Burn, etc. - which would still benefit from the +tohit, even if there is no +damage.
Whether or not that would "gimp" the set, since usually the best attack chains use a lot of external powers, remains to be seen.
Rage was always meant to boost everything but come at a penalty. The penalty has never been tackled propperly, IMO, and double stacking not only negates the -def penalty but also increases the magnitude of Rage beyond what was intended.
There is another way I can think about Rage, and thats to just turn it into a Fiery Embrase-like power. This would mean that it activates bonus damage on all Super Strength attacks only. It still would require a penalty, but not that big of a penalty. -
Quote:I think it's just his way of saying that he personally only cares about AoE, and apparently never solos or entirely avoids story arcs that contain EBs.Originally Posted by Garent
Why the sarcasm? I don't think Starsman said anything that extreme.
It is important because there tends to be a lot of content that either ends in an EB fight or contains multiple EB fights throughout the arc. Soloing IS the core of this game, and by that I don't mean farming. Players need to be able to tackle these encounters at an acceptable speed.Quote:Originally Posted by Hopeling
...but since a vast majority of the game is "weak stuff", I find this statement dubious. And when you're fighting AVs, GMs, and the like, you frequently have a team or league at your back that trivializes individual deficiencies.
In teams, with certain AVs and most GM encounters can fail should you not have enough ST damage output. Although the community in this game tends to not be elitist, if all we had was ice melee in a team, TF targets would actually get hard to kill. -
Quote:Where did you find that?! I thought I destroyed all the photos the scientists took of me!!!Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Err...
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Quote:Called it!!!Originally Posted by Dr. Aeon
Hi everyone,
Marauder is not replacing Ms. Liberty in Atlas Park. However, he will appear somewhere with the use of phasing technology.
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Quote:This is going to be BAD.Originally Posted by Ultimus
Thoughts on this?
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Quote:Took me a while to realize my browser was not glitched out... still is making me go cross eyed...Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Touché. And just to completely confuse people, I've settled on a forum avatar.
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Quote:It means more than a lot of people think. Try taking down a +2 EB, AV or GM with everyone in the team only using AoE attacks.Originally Posted by JayboH
Oh crap, I forgot that single target means absolutely everything.
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Quote:If you think standing 15% lower than the second worst single target set is "balanced" The set is lacking heavily in single target. In fact, So is Dual Blades if you don't account for combos (and this chart does not account for combos.)Originally Posted by JayboH
That graph makes Ice Melee look balanced, but it feels pretty weak to me; perhaps due to its lack of burst?
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Quote:Yea, the numbers are entirely tanker based. Even SS will look different on Brutes due to Fury and for Scrappers due to higher modifiers.Originally Posted by Siolfir
An additional disclaimer that you normally include... that's the Tanker version of Fire Melee which has Combustion. The Scrapper and Brute versions are different, so comparing anything to FM for Brutes or Scrappers by using that chart is a bit misleading on AoE (iirc the single target chain remains the same).
I think Fire Melee's Cremate is a very good attack, though, and will alter the Single Target chain upwards. Not certain right now. -
Quote:Interesting. I had not noticed they ported War Mace to scrappers... and darn they left clobber intact...Originally Posted by Hopeling
Rend Armor (6.424), Clobber (5.84), and Crushing Uppercut (6.36-7.155, depending on combo level) crit for more than that. Knockout Blow would be 7.12, basically a CL3 Crushing Uppercut. It's on the upper end, but not wildly out of line with existing crits.
Did notice now that War Mace and Titans are not available for Stalkers though. I am guessing Titans was just dimmed incompatible and War Mace... well they may be scaed of Clobber?
But Street Justice... hmmm...I'm seeing Stalkers dont get Combat Readyness. This means that they must be in combat and at least land 3 attacks before they can placate and use Crushing Uppercut for higher-than-assassination dmage. If you just build up and Crush you will just do 6.36... I'm actually shocked the set lost Rib Cracker instead of Crushing Uppercut for Stalkers. I would had gone for an Assassin's Uppercut for that set
Interesting either way, though. I would call that evidence enough if it was not because very recently in a coffee talk Syanpse stated attacks hitting for too much was indeed a worry. -
Quote:Rage was always intended to come at a price. At first it was a self stun, later got changed to a -def with an "affect only self" trait (meaning you were able to be attacked but not able to fight back).Originally Posted by MisterD
Most of the list is good and inline with what Claws was saying in his OP. But..a resistance debuff? Even if it IS resistable? That is as silly as the current crash only hurting (mostly) Defence based sets! Either it should be impacting both, or none.
Finally it was turned to a huge -Dmg crash retaining the -def.
All versions had the -end crash.
Currently defense is not "only hurting defense based sets", it's "unfairly hurting defense based sets". Resist sets also suffer from -Def (as they now get hit more often) but Defense based sets get hurt disproportionally more than Resist ones.
A resistible resistance debuff actually hurts everyone equally, even users that have resistance as their main stat. At the end it simply means, no matter how much res or def or regen or whatever you have, you will take 15% more damage. That is the small price you pay for the ability to amplify the damage of every power out there 24/7.
That was a PvP issue. I think we are past that.Quote:Another problem I see with a rage toggle (and just rage in general) is the massive +to hit. 20% in a huge value. Maybe it could stand to be lowered..? But..then again, a toggle with a cost like that, is somewhat comparable to FocAcc (pre nerf). -
Quote:It's not a competition or fight, you know? Besides, if it was... would not be fun if you just quit!!!Originally Posted by EvilGeko
You win too!
I think here lies a problem with communication: each AT should not just be different points in a levered stick between damage and survivability. Every AT should actually have an entirely different feel and gameplay mechanic.Quote:I think if you are going to have different ATs where in the general case one AT is supposed to do more damage or be more survivable or whatever, then you need to not have power sets that can't be transferred directly. Of course that is not true now. But I think it should be.
Stalkers are the only AT where this is sort-of-obvious, every powerset that lands in their hands gets altered to accomodate AT design.
I find it a bit unfortunate that other than Taunt the Power and effects that nearly feel secondary (Taunt/Gauntlet/Critical) there is next to no hard wall telling players "this is supposed to play differently." -
Quote:I listed this in the other thread, but right now the highest crit power I was able to find is Scrapper's BA Cleave at 5.52 ds.Originally Posted by Ultimus
Actually the old reason for this for some reason the old developers never wanted a regular dealing more then 12.6666 damage brawl index even when considering a critical. The only exception to this at the time was Head Splitter which dealt 14.44 I believe during a crit.
Mind you, this is more modern but there.
During CoV beta, I recall the reason to make Hidden Total Focus not crit for full value was that it would be better than Assassination (7ds.) I assume anywhere between 6 to 7 would already be considered "too close" too.
Anyways I posted what I figure would be a better approach than gimping the critical to address this. -
Quote:I often find myself jumping back and forth between the idea that Brutes get "unfair" advantage of damage buffs and "well, THATS how they pay for the fact that they have tanking capabilities while scrappers don't."Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Super strength cannot be balanced for both Brutes and Tankers simultaneously with that huge difference in damage buff benefit. Particularly as its facing the wrong way: towards a higher offensive benefit for Tankers.
But when it comes to sets like SS, where the entire set baseline suddenly becomes the power... things get a bit more gray. But I like to think it works fine as is and the brutes are in the "penalized by divine coincidence" stance.
This would mean that Scrappers should be looking back a the source Tanker material.
Ideally, though, I would had liked if all versions of the set behaved different. With Brute Rage boosting Fury generation rage, and Scrapper perhaps somehow boosting critical rate instead.
Rename them for each AT:
Tanker: Rage
Brute: Enfuriate
Scrapper: Enrage
There still are issues with KoB and the way criticals have been managed so far, though. I think the strongest attack I have seen for scrappers is Cleave doing a wooping 5.52ds in a crit chance (and it's a small cone!)
I would say: settle in that number as the "Crit cap per blow" and from now on, any attack that goes over that simply does (5.52 - BaseDS) with (5.52 - BaseDS)/BaseDS chance to crit.
This would mean for KoB a 1.96 crit with a 55% chance to crit. -
Quote:Don't take it personal, but yea what she said.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
OK. You win.
Now, don't take me wrong, I don't actually think Super Strength is performing acceptably anyways for the reasons I noted in a previous post.
Thing is, if the set had to be ported to Scrappers, it may need additonal design consessions, but the devs appear to dislike making exceptions if they can.
New rules may be needed to balance things out for the AT. -
Quote:Disclaimer: Know Arcana replied but i have not read her reply yet.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Easy, if SS would be overpowered if ported to Scrappers, then it is overpowered now on Brutes and Tankers. SS allows these two ATs to do, with this powerset , more damage than these ATs should do vis a vis Scrappers and Stalkers.
Their position in the damage hierarchy: Tankers>Brutes>Scrappers/Stalkers is broken. IMO a damage set is not fair if it cannot exist on all ATs that use that type of power set.
That would just prove that the set is not compatible with the AT as it stands. Not all power sets work for all ATs. The sets that to this date have not been proliferated are mostly sets that break specific AT performance thresholds or mechanics (Fire for Stalkers is a great example.)
Anyways, just to prove a point: did you know that among Brutes (excluding Epic/Patron Pools) Super Strength is actually weaker relative to other sets than it is for tankers? This is due to its heavy reliance on +Damage with weaker base attacks to boost, meaning Fury has less impact than you would expect. This does not make the set broken, but it's a bit more accepted for brutes because they still dont underperform.
The same applies for all sets that have a sustainable alternative to buildup, like Follow Up, but at a lesser degree because of lower damage buff.
The thing with scrappers is that the developers designed/tweaked an AT around the idea of critical hits meaning double damage, and giving them stronger damage buffs for stronger bursts, but then decided they didn't feel comfortable with anyone in the game doing over X level of damage even in random form.
Basically, it's not the set that it's broken, its just an incompatibility with established rules and acceptable repercussions of said rules. -
Quote:I got to say I am confused with your statement too. "Their position in the damage hierarchy"?Originally Posted by EvilGeko
What's your point? The discussion is about a balance consideration.
What do you mean by that? Super Strength (or almost all sets in the game) are not designed to fit in a specific performance bracket perpetuallyl.
The oldest sets in particulary were never intended to do as much or as little damage as they ended up doing, and they have been tweaked over time various times precisely because there is no defniniton of where they should be, so they tweak hoping it feels better and not underperforms. -
Quote:According to City of Data, Staff's Perfection of Body buffs obey AT modifiers, so it should be 25% stronger for scrappers (they should see 18.75% damage buff at level 3)Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
These are only issues if you proliferate it blind.
There is no reason Rage has to use the standard Scrapper value. Keep it at 80%. The damage buff for Staff isn't higher for scarppers, so it isn't unprecidented.
Neither makes much sense for KoB, and Total Focus in stalkers (a more direct comparison) gets nothing but a penalty to how much damage it will inflict.Quote:As for KOB crits, these could be modded in a similar fashion to KB Concentrated Strike or stalker Energy Transfer - instead of the crit doing bonus damage, it could have a different effect, such as instantly refreshing the cooldown on the power.
Think Synapse stated in a Coffee Talk there are no proliferations in issue 24.Quote:My magic 8 ball says Spines proliferation in issue 24. -
Posted this in the other thread Ultimus posted on the A&PG forum:
Disclaimer: the following numbers ignore the post-GR sets (Kineticks, Titan Weapons, Staff, Street fighting)
Here is the issue: what keeps Super Strength "in check" is design defects of the set (that you may consider features today.) The average attack has poor DPA, and although the set has one excelent DPA attack in KOB, it suffers a 25% recharge time penalty.
Another thing keeping the set in check is that as strong as Foot Stomp is, it's just one AoE that happens to have a convenient larger than normal radius. Any set with just one AoE can be considered to suffer AoE damage output issues, (at minimum a melee set should have a BPAoE and a cone) however Rage makes sure that one PBAoE always counts basically for one and a half, making up the lack of a secondary AoE tool.
The problem with Rage and SS comes with external sources of AoE. These sources can be plenty. It may be your secondary (Fire>Burn or Shield Charge) or it may be epic pools. I have found the nastiest combo can come with SS/Fire/Mu Mastery (my current SS/Inv is also running Mu Mastery and it is, indeed, insane.)
Proliferating the set can also be a huge issue. For one porting the set to scrappers suffer another issue: they would be disproportionally stronger since for them Rage would be working at 100% damage buff, not 80%. That is on top of KOB's insane critical under perma rage.
To expand on this now a bit more:
There are issues with Rages. It buffs things in unexpected ways. Although the set itself feels balanced (even at high levels of recharge with multi-stacking) it still is too good any time you introduce any external power.
If I was to alter SS in any way, this is what I'd do:- Buff Jab so it no longer sucks so bad. Make it a 3 second recharge power.
- Turn Rage into a toggle with a 0.56 end per second cost.
- Rage no longer gets a crash, but now applies a constant 15% resistance debuff (resistable)
- Rage now only offers 80% flat (not modified by AT) buff to Smashing damage.
- All other damage types get buffed by 40% (flat not modified by AT.)
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Disclaimer: the following numbers ignore the post-GR sets (Kineticks, Titan Weapons, Staff, Street fighting)
Here is the issue: what keeps Super Strength "in check" is design defects of the set (that you may consider features today.) The average attack has poor DPA, and although the set has one excelent DPA attack in KOB, it suffers a 25% recharge time penalty.
Another thing keeping the set in check is that as strong as Foot Stomp is, it's just one AoE that happens to have a convenient larger than normal radius. Any set with just one AoE can be considered to suffer AoE damage output issues, (at minimum a melee set should have a BPAoE and a cone) however Rage makes sure that one PBAoE always counts basically for one and a half, making up the lack of a secondary AoE tool.
The problem with Rage and SS comes with external sources of AoE. These sources can be plenty. It may be your secondary (Fire>Burn or Shield Charge) or it may be epic pools. I have found the nastiest combo can come with SS/Fire/Mu Mastery (my current SS/Inv is also running Mu Mastery and it is, indeed, insane.)
Proliferating the set can also be a huge issue. For one porting the set to scrappers suffer another issue: they would be disproportionally stronger since for them Rage would be working at 100% damage buff, not 80%. That is on top of KOB's insane critical under perma rage. -
Quote:Speculation is here simply because some people want it so much they refuse to accept the answer.Originally Posted by Thunder Knight
I'm just explaining (in more detail than I'd originally intended, but apparently short explanations don't work) why there is still some cause for further speculation here, despite the denial.
Synapse may say clearly everything you suggested and then some one will turn around and say that he never said he would not revisit it a month from now. He clarifies that and then people will look for another logic loophole.
Not only will they never be able to ever fully make those that don't want to believe to accept it, but they also will end up unofficially announcing the creation.
BTW: The devs try out ideas on a daily basis. Lots of stuff get mocked up and never actually pursued because of many factors.
One last thing, ATs are not player exclusive. There may be many things the devs may be working on that made them create temporarily powers that, from some one fishing for data, would appear as player sets. An example can be a dev exclusive AT intended to play-test some future NPC abilities.
The possibilities are quite varied and many reasons may exists for them to not be in a position to even acknowledge any plans for anything people noticed in files. -
I think the best thing here is we are finally seeing a better defined structure for Blaster secondaries.
Even with the last two sets (Dark and Psi) it was hard to really pin down what a blaster secondary should be like, something that made it hard to design one.
With this set, plus the new changes in i24, now we know a few more solid things. Like the average number of single attacks, now we know that ST immob is not the only acceptable T1 and that EM is not a pure outlier, and that every secondary needs to have a sustenance power by level 20.
The sets also tend to have enough overlap with dominators that we may start seeing more parallel work being put in the future on sets for both sides.
ALSO.... I want a Ninja Tools blaster set! Shuriken and Throwing Knives -
Well for one I would had gone for Resistable Resist debuff (it's a bit funny for me that people think they can overcome those.)
For damage... would had been interesting if there was some ant-enhancement that lowered the strenght of enhancements proportionally to enhancements you already have, plus the same for damage buffs (a damage debuff proportionate to all damage buffs you have.)
But I know what you mean. Saw it big time in the Bio thread and it still is not stopping. -
Quote:Not sure what you talking about. The only aggro modifier I know about are the inherent taunt modifier (that is the same for both ATs) and Threat Level (that is 4.0 for both ATs.)Originally Posted by Garent
Nitpick here. Tanks have a larger aggro modifier than brutes do. This makes enemies more likely to aggro on them and more likely to close in to melee range when they are aggroed.
Edit: Neither of these increases threat radius (you would need a self -stealth that takes you to negative stealth radius for such a thing, as far as i know)
Was something revealed I don't know about while I was away?