Smiling_Joe

QFT, although let me say that soloing an AV is, to me, one of the most mind-numbingly boring things I've ever tried to do with my PB. I tried to solo Nosferatu as an EB a couple weeks ago, and while he couldn't overcome my resistances, I couldn't overcome his. I finally got bored and lumbered off.

If, for some crazy reason I'm bored enough to try soloing an EB, I've got no problem gobbling a tray full of reds before going in. The fight will last way longer than the inspirations' effects, but the burst of boosted damage they provide will help get that massive lump of hit points down far enough that maybe, just maybe, I can overcome their massive regen rate. It worked for Nemesis the other day (as an EB, don't forget).

But archvillains? Hell no. I don't care enough to spend that kind of time trying to solo something.

This is the crux of the problem. We keep slipping into what "Khelds" do best and why "Khelds" get invited to teams when what we should be talking about is Peacebringers.

Warshades are fine. Kheldians as an archetype are fine. A warshade has better control/buff/mez ability that can be used to create absolutely pristine conditions for dealing damage. Peacebringers are behind in that area.

I don't completely agree with some of the specifics of Lord Xenite's suggestions. I do, however, agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of his suggestions. I think it's an overreaction to state that one healing aura will change the reason Peacebringers are invited to teams. After all - the healing modifier on Kheldians (not the self heal) is down there with scraps and tanks, and while I don't see glowing touch going anywhere in favor of a stationary pet, I see nothing theme-breaking about it. (still want the buff to apply to the caster, LX - wink, wink)

I can agree with Princess Darkstar's list of roles a Peacebringer can fill (with the exception of stealth, which is strictly a WS thing), and I think debuffing especially is where the peacebringer falls behind. -Def is great against hard-to-hit targets, but how often does that happen in the game? The vast majority of pve mobs are pathetically easy to hit, and so the effects of -def aren't noticed.

And personally it's added debuffing where I would pin my hopes. I'd trade just about anything for -def. I'd even take -end if Pulsar got a short circuit treatment. No, come to think of it, I wouldn't. But almost anything else.

That's a fallacious argument. Take away a storm defender's damage dealing and what have you got? Three powers (Five if you count some epics, and the secondary is taken away completely if you remove offensive powers). Does that mean all Storm Defenders should be played as offensive damage dealers? Hardly.

If you look at the modifiers you get a truer story (Iakona's guide can be found here.):

Code:

Mod	Blaster	Contrlr	Defendr	Scrappr	Tanker	Khldian

MELEE											
Damage	1	0.55	0.55	1.13	0.8	0.75	
KheldSS	---	---	---	---	---	0.85	(Dwarf Form)
Heal	0.9	1.1	1.25	0.9	0.9	0.9	0.9	
HealSlf	1.13	0.95	0.95	1.25	1.75	1	
Stun	0.8	1.25	1	0.8	0.8	0.9	0.8	
Immobil	0.8	1.25	1	0.8	0.8	0.9	
Sleep	0.8	1.25	1	0.8	0.8	0.9	0.8	
Knockbk	1	1	1	1	1.25	1	
Fear	0.8	1.25	1	1	1	0.9	1	
ResBool	0.8	0.8	0.8	1	1.25	0.9	
											
RANGED											
Damage	1	0.55	0.65	0.5	0.5	0.63 	
KheldSS	---	---	---	---	---	1.2	(Nova Form)
Heal	0.9	1.1	1.25	0.9	0.9	0.9	0.9	
HealSlf	1.13	0.95	0.95	1.25	1.75	1	
Stun	0.8	1.25	1	0.8	0.8	0.9	0.8	
Immobil	0.8	1.25	1	0.8	0.8	0.9	
Sleep	0.8	1.25	1	8	0.8	0.9	0.8	
Knockbk	0.8	1	1	1	1.25	0.9	
Fear	0.8	1.25	1	1	1	0.9	1	
ResBool	0.7	1	1.25	0.7	0.7	0.9

Now according to this, Kheldians - at the time they were designed - were third up from the bottom in the damage department unless they were shape-shifted. Dwarf put you just below scrappers and blasters, and Nova put you above even blasters where the modifier is concerned.

The support numbers put khelds third from the top, right below defenders and controllers. This meant that even though Incandescent Strike did whoploads of damage, it also held more effectively than three of the other five archetypes could, provided they had a similar power.

My point with this is that Kheldians as they were originally designed were meant to be roughly third-best at anything they did, including damage. They weren't meant to be the best buffers, controllers or damage dealers. They were meant to be the best at adapting to fill any one of those roles, just like Geko said.

Of course, you've already called into question the proper defenition of adapting, but I suppose you could also question what the definition of what the word "is" is. (that's a reference to Bill Clinton's impeachment, for anyone not familiar with the defenition of "is")

Now the point needs to be made that - after it was demonstrated that Kheldians were underperforming and confirmed with datamining - Castle decided that the easiest way to bring our performance up to par was to increase our damage modifiers. (to .85 human melee, 1.0 dwarf melee, and .8 human ranged - nova didn't change)

At no time did Castle state that he was changing a Kheldian's primary role or design philosophy, and unless he or another developer comes out and states that they intend for Kheldians to be primarily damage dealers any assertions for that notion are just speculation.

Kheldians have gotten considerably better at dealing damage, it's true and no one will argue. We're currently below scrappers and blasters, modifier-wise. But the counter-point to that is that we're also currently below only controllers and defenders (again, when comparing modifiers).

So while you may well be able to build your kheldian for damage, the potential is there for buffs and controls. Lord Xenite made suggestions that would capitalize on those designed strengths because while it's generally accepted that there is a disparity between PB and WS performance (especially in late game), it's not bloody likely that any change will come in the form of moar damage. In fact, he could probably use the same disparity you pointed out between attacks and support
powers to indicate that changes along the lines of what he suggested are needed to balance out the increased damage because the increase in damage isn't closing the gap.

You currently maintain that they don't need anything, right? That is a much better argument than the one you've been making with regard to their role. Your stance that a Kheldian's primary role is damage is flat-out wrong. I've given concrete evidence that their design intent wasn't damage before all else, and now I've given numbers to that same effect.

Not that any of the evidence I've brought to the discussion supports a primary buffer/support role, either.

As I said above, Kheldians were designed - and are the best at - filling whatever role needs filled for a team, whether it's support, damage or control. They do it all, but they are not the best at any one of those aspects and never will be. Furthermore, none of those aspects so heavily outweighs the others that it can be considered "primary."

You can state quite correctly that the majority of a Peacebringer's powers are damage dealing attacks, but that's a broad assertion that can be made about any archetype in the game. Hell, I can state that the game is all about damage and be right on the most basic level.

But if you power through mobs on your WS faster than you could on your scrapper or your blaster, it's not because you did more damage. It's because the secondary effects of your damage-dealing powers were modified more effectively by your scalar to create the circumstances to let you better leverage the damage that you did do. In other words. Controls, buffs and damage all worked together with more or less equal force - and that's something other archetypes can't boast.

I'm curious what you think of the WarCry article I linked to previously regarding Kheldians - you know, the one where a developer explicitly stated what their intentions were for a Kheldian role? If you'd like me to post it in a nutshell, here's what Geko said:

Note that adapting =/= damage.

I'm just a little surprised that you, who asked for
haven't addressed that article or the quote at all.

There's proof, as requested. Now allow me to turn it around and say that you're going to need a bit more proof than "the powers look like they're slanted in the damage direction, therefore Kheldians must have a primary damage role in spite of what the developers themselves have said."

Can you provide that proof? Or will you look for a way to invalidate what Geko said?

Like I said, I'm curious as to where it goes from here. I really don't have a row to hoe in this, but I find it an interesting debate.

Definitely. Especially the part about adjacent spawns.

I used to stealth them with invisibility on.

/bind f5 "powexec_toggleoff invisibility$$powexec_name incandescent strike" worked great for that. The key was to get around behind them so they'd have to spend an action turning. Popping a purlpe beforehand also helped.

Sometimes they'd get off a single sapping attack, but more often than not they'd just get an initial brawl out. Used the same strategy with voids, back when they were a threat.

FWIW, I remembered Geko originally posting something with about a Kheldian role, but alas I fear it's been purged in the migration (or was long ago lost). However, Google is my friend, today. I found what I was looking for in an old WarCry article:


The entire article is here.

Now, having posted that, keep in mind that that was a hella long time ago, and Kheldians have changed more than a little since then. A Kheldian's primary role has been a hotly contested debate for as long as we've had Kheldians, but I've never seen the Developers waver from that vision.

I wasn't playing back when they were introduced, however, so someone who was or with better search fu might be able to find something different.

If so, I'd love to see it.

ROFL! You realize, of course, that your invoke panic would only hit about half of us, unless you have it heavily slotted for accuracy....

Lord Xenite: Master of Understatement

Heh. The day they do that is the day I take and auto-fire stealth and a tendrils aura for all my human form costumes. Then I'd make my dwarf and nova solid and call every day backwards day.

I fully expect it to be City of Rainbows for a while, but - like every new shiny we get - it'll wear off in time. I'm thinking this will be a shorter time than most.

Don't get me wrong - I originally fully intended to buy a whole hoop of that awesome cheese. I currently have the name "Electric Boogie" reserved on my server of choice and popped over on test and made an elm/ela scrap named Captain Disco to test out the concept. Every single power was a different color. You know, like a disco ball.

I'm sick of it already. I'll still create something on I16 launch - mostly because sewer teams will be so.... interesting.

And they'll be back, with the AE boss nerf.

But either way it'll even out eventually, and if/when Khelds ever do get to change up colors, I fully intend to make a retro hero movie based kheld who's all black and white.

Just remember to wear your sunglasses when you play after I16 goes live.

Oh, I see. Shoe's on the other foot now, huh? For years you human formers were held in derision and accused of not playing the archetype how the devs intended, and now we get two little shifting bugs and you're all like "HAXXORS! EXPLOITS! Not playing as the devs intended! YADAYADA!!!111!!"

I see how it is.

::removes tongue from cheek::

Okay, yeah. That was a joke. Couldn't resist.

Oh, and it's all a Nemesis Plot.

No, it's not.

::Nods head "yes"::

This. And I'll extend that to any tank that hangs back without warning and lets a team run in to make a point about how important he/she is to their survival.

They still would be. The Nova pool powers should emulate a blaster's secondary powers, minus melee attacks, and a Dwarf's pool emulates a tanker's secondary, minus the armors.

Even then, you're only talking about four attacks and four pool powers, or roughly the equivalent of half a primary and half a secondary.

Not that very many people would want to take every power in both pools, or even every power in one pool, for that matter. Taking every power in either pool would take up power slots that cover way too many desireable powers to skip.

Having said that, however, the power suggestions were just starting points; I'm quite sure more balanced alternatives would have to be created with an eye towards the loon who did take all eight powers. Assuming someone did that, then balance would have to be maintained with other AT's. The real trick would be to maintain that balance backwards so that if all would be taken it wouldn't be overpowered, but if only just one were taken it would be worth the choice.

Like I said, it wasn't perhaps the best suggestion out there, but it's the only one I've ever made wrt Kheldians and any form of power pools, epic or otherwise, and it seemed relevant to the thread.

I can't troll forever, you know.


EDIT - and actually, I really like Jade Dragon's point about having a kheld-specific pool for humans and - especially - the part about only being able to choose from one pool.

You're missing the point - they would replace a power choice at a given level. For example, at, say, 35, you might choose to take one of the dwarf powers instead of light form.

The idea was to promote build diversity by empowering the forms at the cost of human form power choices and possibly further specialize in dwarf, nova, or both.

EDIT - okay, something I left out that probably should have been included from the original suggestion: They would progress much like pool and epic powers, in that their availability is restricted based on level and number of powers already taken:

For example: a power pool available to novas would run thus:


power 1 - available at lv 8
power 2 - available at lv 8
power 3 - available at lv 16, provided you have one of the first two
power 4 - available at lv 22, provided you have two others.

For Dwarf, it would run thus:

power 1 - available at lv 22
power 2 - available at lv 22
power 3 - available at lv 30, provided you have one of the first two
power 4 - available at lv 35, provided you have two others.

And again, this takes up your standard power pick at those levels.

This. WANTSS IT, PRECIOUSSSSS!!

That, or include a mammalian beast head without so much teeth so I can finally make a believable hamster to go in my shield ball...



EDIT: Wow, I'm a pack rat. Found it after a year and a half. The short version was that it was form-specific pools that had powers that could be taken by those favoring the forms, as the powers would work for the forms. An extra "Nova Pool would open up after taking Nova form, and an extra "Dwarf Pool" would open up after taking dwarf, the idea being to give players the option to occasionally supplement a form pool power instead of a human form power they necessarily didn't want.

Maybe not the best suggestion ever, but fwiw here were the pool ideas:


Dwarf Pool - White Dwarf Ancilliary


Stellar Overload - Dwarf Build Up - bigger buff to your accuracy than damage, but it gives PB's double buildups.


Cosmic Absorption - like energy absorption, but buffs resistance and end, vise defense and end.


Energy Torrent - Like in Energy Blast - a footstomp followed by the torrent - minor damage and knockdown.


Energy Field - Dwarf glows brightly - debuffs mobs' damage. taunt aura toggle.




Dwarf Pool - Black Dwarf Ancilliary


Infinite Gaze - Petrifying gaze from Dark sets - after all, WS's already gots the double mire, right?


Black Hole - like wormhole from Gravity controller set - less damage, longer stun


Dark Absorption - like Dark Consumption, but buffs resistance and end.


Dark Matter Storm - Death Shroud from Dark Armor - minor damage/taunt aura





Nova Pool - Bright Nova Ancilliary


Cosmic Aim - like Aim from Blaster secondaries


Comet's Tail - ST high damage, kb - energy punch but with the squidly tail, using bright nova scatter's animation and a white pom-pom


Solar Flash - PBAOE - very minor damage, kb, -accuracy


Phasic Anomaly - +Defense click - nova starts to partially "phase" - parts of the nova form phasing in and out of reality. This is not meant to be related to elude, by any stretch, but just provides a little extra defense for dodging the unwanted aggro that 'scatter gets you until the tanker can get it back.



Nova Pool - Dark Nova Ancilliary


Midnight Surge - Aim


Gravimetric Feedback - ST stun using dark 'scatter animation


Graviton Flux - PBAOE sleep


Shadow Folding - +stealth click - Nova folds dark matter around itself, providing concealment and slight defense

WRT Epics, I would actually like to see some kheld-specific pools that we could take as we were levelling up in place of powers we really don't want - like group energy flight. Powers that might work in forms. I had a suggestion for that once, I'll have to dig around to see if I can find it....

Greeeeeaaat. So my not-IOed-at-all PB can take twenty minutes to bring a boss down to half health instead of the usual five.

Sounds like just. so. much. fun.

Almost as much fun as the blatant and intentional hyperbole in my first statement, there.