Siberian_Gale

However, Kali, those remarks indicate that NOTHING should be able to survive aggroing a group of 50. Presmuably, he means +2s or +3s.

Ice can survive a group of 50. They are certainly not instantly defeated on most occasions. Invulnerable, stone, and fire can most definitely survive groups of 50.

This means very much the gigantic nerf which I envisioned. Perhaps only defenders buffs will lift the tanks to cap.

Unless they lifte the blaster cap blasters do not fit the "nothing but defender buffs can cap" rule either. Apparently they mean a nerf to Inspirations as well.

They are going to have a bunch of defenders and controllers next issue.

I'm curious to see if anyone will bother playing anything else. The changes to the blasters isn't going to increase their surviveability more than 10%. It's just a way of saying, "but we gave you more damage!" when blasters complain about it.

If my health is in the red I can't blast, I HAVE to hit an inspiration.

Well, it was about time for me to quit the game.

Well, the key here is that your also not waiting on me to get damaged so that you can heal me. You always have something improtant to do--deal damage--if the team is taking good care of itself.

I don't like pure defender builds for a couple of reasons. The most important is that I've seen friends playing them leave the game because they find it "boring". More attacks can go a long way towards healing that boredom.


And I've also seen enough of the game to know that extra damage always helps and a tank and controller can pretty much eliminate the need for healing (not to mention if you have a handy-dandy bubbler around).

I do really well with a dictionary and a thesarus. I once came up with a fantasy idea from the word Buttermilk.

Hehe, but you should have seen Kali's face (OK, I couldn't see her face but I think she was probaby surprised) when I mentioned that my AR did 175 points in critical hit damage!

Blasters aren't the only ones with ranged criticals. Of course, I think the chances of an AR crit are pretty darn low but it was fun to see...

Well, I love the Dev team--I just don't always agree with them. You are absolutely commited to making a good game. The Dev love for this game was evident to me the minute I loaded it up and it is still very clear.

However, please understand our perspective. We love this game too, of course. And, as you say, change is extremely stressful.

There are many of us who violently dislike the PvP system precisely because it introduces a great number of nerfs into the environment. I would, above all else, prefer the game's rules to remain as stable as possible.

Nerfing scrappers and tanks--which must naturally lead to a nerf of defenders and controllers--seems like overkill. This will create a great deal of animosity. I can imagine being a regen scrapper and suddenly finding out that I am being nerfed again because now that invulnerable tanks are weaker, the standards have been lowered and I am still strong.

It seems to me there are two culprits here. 1) The ability of some ATs to create large herds of Mobs. 2) The PvP defenses of scrappers and tanks.

I'd much rather you designed something like a debuff code to resolve the second problem. You must be able to tone down any power in PvP and it would make sense to have a central program that could just debuff characters appropriately whenever they went into PvP.

I think the first problem would be best resolved by a debuff system kicking in when a player is struck by, say, twenty-five or more mobs. The hits would debuff def, resistance, and healing ability--pretty much ending herding except as an emergency measure.

It would still allow a tank to pull a group into a safer place, though!

If you really plan on going after scrappers and tanks I strongly recommend the carrot.

Tanks might very well accept being weaked quite a bit if you take out the kryptonite. Give inv some psi resistance (replace Unstoppable with Determined and make it a fairly end draining toggle that helps resist psi and fear and end drain--but not confusion, hehe) and nice toxic resistance (through resist elements).

Remove the drawbacks of granite armor.

Fix Ice so it maches the other sets.

Reduce the end cost of fire tank armors to make up for the resistance I strongly suspect you will end up taking away. Possibly give them knockback resistance as a way of compensation.

Removing your trump cards in exchange for a big chunk of our defense is a deal that a lot of tanks will embrace.

At least it won't be universally hated. And in the end tanks will be capable of tanking more.

If you apply the same strategy for scrappers (for instance: no Regenerator should ever, ever, EVER need Stamina; no SR scrapper should want the second rate power hasten) this could all go much more smoothly.

Anyway, want you all to keep up the good work. You are respected, know that, and I don't ever want the devs being jadded (or, god forbid, another authoritarian post like the first invulnerable nerf one).

Keep up the good work and keep the channels of communication open!

Gratz on COH year one, Devs! It's been great--minus my self-imposed exile for a bit--and the game is still a great deal of fun for me.

Thanks for a great game!

The minus recharge and minus speed are crap at the things we fight at the higher levels. And we pay out the wazoo for end. The holds are most certainly NOT crap--but then, a lot of the other blaster sets have a hold/disorient. Ice does have a second one in place of a sniper attack. Frankly, I'd rather have the sniper attack though freezing a boss is always fun.

I recently disagreed with someone about AR's single target damage--it might have been Ohms but I think it was Mord--and I said I didn't think AR was as far behind ice as people thought. Then I started playing an ice blaster again. Boy, was I wrong. The animations are sickly fast. I don't know how energy is but there's no way any other blaster can keep up with ice in single targets. You can just lay out a world of pain in the blink of an eye.

Ice blasters probably pay too much end for their powers and they really don't need the range limitations. However, I don't think they are suffering and really won't be suffering when Blizz works properly again.

Can I kill a boss faster than a scrapper? No. However, when there's four bosses in a group (which I see all the damn time in our big groups) I can cycle between them at speeds scrappers can only envy. I MIGHT rival a scrapper in boss killspeed.

I would ask that blasters remember that while one of us doesn't create envy in scrappers, two or three of us can. Having three blasters in a group is like having three fire tanks or spines scrappers. There's not a lot lft for anyone to do.

I'll say the same thing I PMed to Statesman: blasters need saving throws. This would let us take half damage or avoid the mez affect. The roll would be relatively low and quite undependable. You still wouldn't want to solo a boss unless you were high on purples or you had a good control power.

Statesman is not going to do anything to make blasters too hardy. The Devs want us as one of the weaker melee classes and that's fine as long as ability to inflict ranged damage is worth the trouble.

But we really need an escape clause, from time to time, to give our tank/defender teammates a chance to pull our bacon out of the fire.

Yes, exactly. There's no point in boosting blasters only to turn around and nerf scrappers--and then find that blasters were over-boosted. Thus, we soon lose the very power we were hoping for.

Range and target selection are advantages and I must invite blasters who don't understand this to play a scrapper sometime. I can shoot from one side of the room and then automaticaly switch the other and then go back again. It would take a pretty nimble scrapper to do the same. And runners are a joke to me...

No, the problem is that a lot of our attacks do not give us sufficient range (OK, maybe AoEs need to be in close and create a risk/reward situation; but our single target powers should let us stand pretty far back and snipe away. As an ice blaster I feel this problem pretty acutely.).

Well, we play with the big 8 person teams, and I don't think Statesman really wants to encourage them. Not that he hates them or anything! Just that the more stuff gets on the screen the more frames drop and the game can look crappier on lower performing computers. That lowers the game experience for some of us (yes, me!) and there will be peoople (not me, I'm happy just to be able to play!) put off by that. I think he'd like 5 and 6 people better but they allow eight people slugfests for the heck of it.

I WILL say that a big, 8 player mission is certainly extremely challenging. The bosses spawn thick and often very purple. Since there's always level disparity on a team it can get really, really nasty.

Er, I've strayed of subjct. My real point was that I think halving the debt for missions is a great idea. Look, the characters who die the most (blasters, kheldeons most likely) are the ones that, for the most part, want to team the most. So I think it's a very good change even though debt in a big team is almost meaningless. We still need SOME kind of a slap on the wrist for dying...

You know, this isn't a bad idea even though I don't think debt is that noticable with the difficulty slider. I'll tell you why I like it: my tank dies a lot less (since Unstoppable went away) than my blaster. It's goint to be hard for you to ever make my blaster much more surviveable fighting +3 mobs in the post 30 game. But you CAN mitigate blaster debt--or better yet everyone's debt--when doing missions.

So I give you thumbs up.

But about Energy Absorption and Ice tanks...

Thank you Dwimble-san! While I actually pieced together the explanation and did understand, your clarification still helped immensely.

I always thought it was Portal missions that were the problem--I guess i'm wrong. Certainly I don't understand what causes all the lag. If PLing contributes, shame on the PLers.

But I'm not sure I see this as a solution. The tank could stay at range, pull targets remotely, and bring them towards the tram. Right? That's what you're saying. As long as you make certain to bring everything to a central location it's cool.

Do MoBs really repopulate that slowly or will this just lead to people bringing large clusters of mob to the trams?

Do any teams really still do outdoor hunting? With the difficulty slider, missions seem a vastly better investment of time and energy for a team. Solo, well, my poor blaster can't always handle the bosses that spawn in a mission. But this is a team rule...

The new Rage seems perfectly balanced to me. If I'm in a big group, I am NOT popping rage. I'll just be a tank. in smaller groups, it's usually safer to pop rage and my damage is much more important. Just using standard tank tactics (building a nice cluster), I seem able to hold onto aggro long enough.

Now, against an AV, I would also not run rage unless I sensed the end was near (and I had fought the AV before and knew the AV wouldn't pop a heal of some kind).

All and all, I think you did a super job with rage!

Actually, I would fall over laughing in Positron suddenly ran from his perch and said, "OK, I've got to run to PI to do a portal mission. I'll be right back. Valk, take over for a bit!"

Geko: Maybe it's time to close the shop on this post, LOL!

Just want to say: I group in very large teams of 7 or 8 players on average. This would be wonderful for teamplay!

The problem now is that big groups of MOBs just have some many AoE holds and stuns that a blaster can easily be caught in the effects. Even with a defender around, it's hard to get back into action--or just run away.

This inspiraiton will be lovely!

PvP, well, we'll just have to wait and see.

The provoke factor would be fine as long as the Devs make it a function of level. It could max out in the early twenties and stay the same for the rest of the game.

Hmm. I use provoke specifically to target mobs that arent' close to me. The innate aggro generation of invincibility keeps the mobs closest to me pretty darn ticked off. When my blaster friend gets attacked, they jump over me and invincibility will usually take the aggro (Of a melee attacker, mind you). Of course, more often they just kill the minion--because it's very rare for a lt/boss to escape me. That's what I'm most worried about holding.

I do think AoE are out of whack. Think the best solution would be to decrease damage as the blast radius increases. Anyway, an AoE nerf would effect almost every character in the game--so the Devs would have to be very careful about how they did it.

Now, Foo, patience please! Remember the furor caused over capes? It's all about asthetics which are NOT irrelevant in a game. CoH's primary advantage over other MMORPG may well be the ability to tailor your character. Aesthetics.

I also think it's more about semantics. The word minion doesn't conjure up terror in me. Had the choosen terms like: Soldier, warrior, lt, Boss and so on, things might be different. But that would also require "minions" not named silly thinks like "medic".

Regardless, what you should be asking is this: how will Statesman achieve this objective? Your tank will only be capable of fighting 1 red minion at level 40. How will that be possible given the state of invulnerability?

It's a good question. I can't imagine anything less that a global nerf--or damage so severe that blasters will be one-shotted left and right. I think it's too late for such drama.

Simply give us a difficulty slider, grant us the ability to fight purples, and let us go at the higher mobs for great eps. Higher Mobs=harder mobs=more need for balanced teams=fun for everyone.

And we can still stand in packs of white minions and feel pretty darn superior.

A mission slider would cause your missions to con at a level higher than you--if you were post 20, that is. There's no reason to have a gazillion even cons. We don't need that for challenge. But if the missions for level forty, on average, conned at +3 (with a slider to slighly raise or significant lower the difficulty) things would be fine with some moderate increases in mob power. No video card problems. You'd get the same number of mobs--just higher spawns. Maybe more lts and bosses, though.

Now, only a small portion of players post on these boards. But there's gobs of post 25 players out there. Imagine the change for them and how shocking it will be!

You long on Thurdsay, you're fighting 10 +1s with no probom with your level 31 scrapper. The changes go live the next day. On friday, you fight five even con minions--and die almost instantly because that's two too many MOBs for you, buddy!

I can't believe the uproar wouldn't be deafening. There's a compromise here and Statesman and the Devs had better find it. You can't just take away such a sense of power from players and expect them to be happy about it.

It's way too radical a change. I know the hgih level of power is not what they had in mind--but that's not a justification for any action they choose to take. This isn't the game I had in mind, either. We all have to make compromises, dang it.

Besides, the power actually works FOR the game. It DOES give us a sense of being a superhero. It was an accident, sure, but it's a happy accident.

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Keeping fights from becoming trivial is good.

However, superheroes should still be able to feel like superheros without having to beat on blues and greens. At high levels, I feel that a small fight with 2-3 white minions should be trivial for most heroes, while 5 or more should get trickier. LTs should be fairly formidable, and bosses should be downright dangerous. Most bosses seem about right, but LTs could probably use a boost in abilities.

How about adding some function where minions become tougher in packs? Strength in numbers and all that, especially if there is a LT or boss in the group to lead them. The more of them there are, the more confident (HP and maybe small combat bonuses) they get that they can bring down that big bad hero, but as they start being defeated one by one that confidence (bonus) slowly erodes.

Just a thought.

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Love that idea! It's just the right thing. God knows that herding is more than a bit silly (though like a lot of people I'm NOT one to talk!).

And did I mention a mission slider? And setting the missions to higher levels automaticlaly as you level?

Lion: That's a good point to make. A Crey Medic could be the most powerful minion in the game. But I can't take them seriously because of the name. And the punch DOES look silly.

It's too late to change the way they did upper level minions and make it obvoius there's something more to them. It's much better if they scale up the levels for missions and add a mission slider if you need to pull the level back to your own.

Just con missions at +3 for 40th level characters--and a mission slider that could push it to +4 or even +5 (but that of course would not neccessarily give any extra eps--it would be for challange sake only).

Mission slider? Statesman? Hello? Are you there, my dear fellow?

Also, you can just have missions con higher as you rise in level. The mission sldier can push it back to even con.

So for post 20, 3 minions +1 level = 1 hero. And missions will always con 26 (or even sometimes 27) for a level 25 character. The slider wil push it all the way back to level 24 if you want--or all the way up to level 28 if you're really in the mood for a challenge.

Likewise,

30-40: 3 +2 level minions = 1 hero
40+ 3 +3 level minions = 1 hero.

The point is, you don't need super-large groups to kill fps if you make the mobs higher level as we level. We'll be fighting over our head--and that will be superheroic. You will argue it's an illusion. That's perfect! Frankly, the illusion is worth a great deal for the comic fans out there.

Mind you, but all means toughen up the MOBs. I'd just as soon do only missions and end street fighting forever.

In fact, I'd like to end street fighting forever (prefer to have private "patrol" hunting grounds) and just put the odd "crime in action" on the actual streets. That way, if a 50th level character saw a mugging, well, they would take the time to stop it! Because it would be rare and a hero is a hero.

As it is, we arrest mobs for loitering which just isn't that cool.

I am still at a total loss. It's all well and good to say you can't have 280 even con minions in a room to challenge a big group.

But who's suggesting that?

What I've been suggesting--and those like me--was a mission slider and higher cons. More players=higher level mobs.

There's no reason why I can't have the same challenge I had against 3 white mobs--except against 3 red mobs. When I run into the white mobs on the street, I'll clean them up.

Or, for God's sake, stop calling them "minions". It's a pretty lowly sounding name.

But if Statesman--who has been defending this all day--thinks there's an uproar now... Well, wait till he explains HOW he's going to somehow magically make the game 3 minions = 1 hero. I can only imagine massive debuffs, hugely increased mob hits, freaking unreal damage, a really nasty AoE nerf, or the total removal of SOs. How else do you accomplish such a dramatic change in the game?

Why can't he just give us mission slider and let us determine the level of the cons? He can then wipe his hands of the result. The game can't generate enough even cons for an 8 person party? No problem. Let us pop up the slider and generate a boatlaod of +4s.

To me, the numbers do matter... It's funny, Statesman, how I start feeling like a superhero past level 22. And I don't feel like one before 22. So for me, the current setup does work--and the new one will not.

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One quick question Statesman, what about the Defenders and Controllers that ALREADY have a hard time with mobs?
How would these changes affect them?


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We'll need to give the more "oomph" to keep up!

Oh - and on the XP - if we up mob HP, then we definitely need to up XP rewards! If the battle is more challenging for a player, then he should definitely get more reward.

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I'm unconvinced you will do anything but slow down the leveling of better groups. I would want to see more details of this plan...

Regardless, it is way too extreme. The ONE thing in this game which was comic book like in this game was wading through even level minions--once I was in my thirties, of course.

Don't take that away! A "minion" shouldn't be the same problem for a 30th level characer--and certianly not for a 40th level character--as it is for a 1st.

By all means, tone down our ability to solo +4 bosses. But don't remove the very real sense that our powers are increasing.

Otherwise, I will feel as wimpy at 50th as I do at 1st. I just have more powers to feel wimpy with.