Shadowe

[ QUOTE ]

Player C is obviously Wrong.

Player A and B are roleplaying characters without Omega level clearence or whatever Dark Watcher needs before he tells you the truth.

It's reasonable to assume said players A and B haven't discovered the truth after all there are liekly to be all sorts of theoryies about the Rikti floating around the general populas.

[/ QUOTE ]

You see, I would feel the same way you do, Cactus. Because, although you haven't explicitly stated it, the canon material we have available to us says that Rikti are from another dimension. But we're not talking about what the characters believe - IC knowledge is always less than OOC knowledge - we're saying that the players themselves run their characters on the beliefs stated and, effectively, making up their own canon as to what rikti are. Even if the characters were shown irrevocable truth about the Rikti, because the players believe something different - or to their view of the game world things are different - it will make no difference. They are ignoring canonic data in a contradictory fashion. This will inevitably lead to friction. Better to step around canon or avoid crossing canonical territory than to state "Canon is wrong", which is what ignoring its existance is, as far as I can tell.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, no it doesn't. It means that you do not accept the canon as existing, and therefore you hold a contradictory viewpoint to people that do follow it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I think all is said.
Discussion closed for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I cause offence? If so, I certainly didn't intend to.

What I would like to see is a situation where all the RPers in CoH agree on a few fundamental things - I don't want to dictate what those things are, but I have never, and never intend to, RPd in a world-setting where the backstory is ignored.

To allow you to see my perspective (hopefully) a little clearer, I am aware that there are huge holes in the canon. Holes you can drive an aircraft carrier through. It is in those holes that we players create our own options. We are not ignoring the canon that exists, but working our characters around the options that have been presented to us, and in the process using options that are not explicitly denied to us by the world-setting. I don't think I've ever come across a character that flat-out contradict canon. I've seen characters that utilise the gaps to create interesting backstory, but not one that ignores it completely.

I like to see interesting characters. I like to see inventive characters. I adore a well thought-out backstory. But I would have a problem with someone who comes up to me and says "My character is married to Sister Psyche", and ignores that canon says she is married to Manticore, even if the character has the most brilliant backstory and reasoning in the world. It may be a blinkered perspective on my part, but I cannot conceive of roleplaying in the CoH universe and being willing to flat-out ignore things like that.

Thanks, Smeester. Wonderful post.

Retcon means 'Retroactive Continuity'. It's a term used when you go back and say "okay, events didn't happen that way, they happened this way."

Most RPers HATE retcons.

[ QUOTE ]
Not feeling bound to established canon doesn't mean someone is going to come with a funky idea every day that is mandatorily conflicting with everyone else views, you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never said it was. So, what do you do when someone does come up with a funky idea that is mandatorily contradictory to everyone else's view?

[ QUOTE ]
Mind you, not following the canon source also mean to me I accept others are following it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, no it doesn't. It means that you do not accept the canon as existing, and therefore you hold a contradictory viewpoint to people that do follow it. I think that Rikti are extra-dimensional invaders. You don't agree, since you ignore the canon that says so. Our points of view are contradictory. If you were to say that your character doesn't believe canon, I could understand your point, but since you don't consider it to exist for the game you are playing, you are shutting yourself off from RPing with anyone who does follow it.

[ QUOTE ]
So I generally put a precautional, conditionnal and subjective conclusion on my views.
So if I have to express them "publicly", there are enough escape routes in them to allow someone else to disagree with them, without forcing me to either back them up at all cost, either abandon them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your views or your characters' views? If it's your characters, then I cannot see a problem - lots of people in the real world believe things that are false, and I have nothing against them. But if my character says 'The sky is blue' and I back that up with 'because canon says so' and you say OOC 'no, the sky is actually pink, and I believe that because I ignore canon and I want to play in a world with a pink sky', what are we left with but anarchy?

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, to be sincere, I had and have much much MUCH more trouble with people "following canon" than people who are occasionnaly diverting from it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because people like consistency. Humans are pattern-seeking machines. It is in our nature to see patterns and classify events/objects according to the patterns we see. I'm not exactly a stickler for canon - though there are plenty of people out there who are - but my point is that the game-world we are trying to share through RP says 'the sky is blue' and someone who says 'actually, in the game I'm playing it's pink' is separating themselves from the world.


[ QUOTE ]
So while not respecting it should logically trigger an mess and anarchic, inconsistent world, me and people I play with are smoothly accomodating our views, always managing to allow breathing room for others views.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't respect you more for managing this. It's a shame that you and the people you play with will NEVER be able to find common ground with those of us who think the sky is blue.

[ QUOTE ]
I still have to find the breathing room from people following canon. I might find it one day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. So, because we want to play in the world that the devs have given us we are restricting you in some way?

Alright. Let's take an example, then. One well-known Unionverse character was a powerful psychic. He read thoughts without thinking. In fact he was unable to not read thoughts. I create a normal human character as a plot device, no psychic defences whatsoever, and want to run a plot. My normal human cannot stop the character reading his thoughts, but if his thoughts become known to anyone else, the plot gets ruined, and for reasons of the plot, he must be a normal human with no mental defences.

Assume both players are reasonable, but that the player of the psychic will insist that because of his character's flaw (being unable to avoid reading thoughts), there is no way he will not read the thoughts of a normal person, and, because of a plot requirement, the normal character must have no psychic or mental defences or way to stop his thoughts being read.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't recall there is an exam about canon before you can start playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't, and no expects there to be one. But many of us are interested in RPing within a consistent game-world. Not one that changes every time someone comes up with an idea and doesn't like that the previously accepted knowledge of the way the world works doesn't let them. The world of CoH has certain features, and they exist for a reason. The story of the world progresses as a result of that history and events that people (and the devs) put into play.

By ignoring the events of the world and the features of the world, we end up with a situation that practically begs for god-modding to take place. I RP for the immersion in a shared game-world. I know that there are certain features of this game-world - they're the canon - and because I'm RPing in this world, with this history, is it unreasonable of me to hope that other people want to RP in the world we've been given, too? A world where the rikti have invaded. A world where Kheldian's can't bond with unwilling hosts. A world where Nemesis is a serious matter of concern for people that know (some of) the truth. If someone wants to break canon, that's fine if they can explain it. They don't even have to explain it to me, or anyone else. If the explanation that they have fits within (or around) canon, then we have on our hands a mystery and that is the stuff of which good RP can stem. But if the game world doesn't matter, and the history doesn't matter, and the rules by which the CoH universe work don't matter, one wonders what the point of RPing in CoH is, when you (general you, not anyone specific) can create your own world and RP in it somewhere else?

[ QUOTE ]
Because the game canon says that they use Voids and Quantums; simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

And also Arakhn has better things to do than go out into the streets. After all, why bother when you have an army of voids to do the job for you?

[ QUOTE ]
For the record and despite my late and little participation to this discussion, I just want to say I usually ignore "canon" in CoH.
Because when I had a vague interest about reading it, it was (still is ?) spread a bit there and there.
Because, once "true to canon" starts to be important in your gaming, you generally get arguments over interpretation.

[/ QUOTE ]

WARNING - SPOILER ALERT

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post for the purposes of this reply, simply because I agree with pretty much all of it - I don't care if someone wants to play a scrapper as a Kheldian, or a vampire, or a psychic capable of hearing every tiny surface thought from everyone on the planet all at once (yes, there was a CoH RP character who could do this - but I'm not going to get into that).

I'm a little bothered by the fact that you say that you ignore "canon" in CoH. Well, okay, but you're saying that... Statesman is not the most powerful hero in the world, the Rikti never invaded (twice), Nemesis is not behind everything, Kheldians don't exist and therefore there are no Peacebringers, Warshades or Nictus, Paragon does not rest on the remains of an ancient city called Oranbega, Rikti (if they actually exist) are not humans from another dimension. That's just off the top of my head.

In fact, by ignoring canon, you are declaring that the world and history in which Paragon City exists are, as far as you and your characters are concerned, irrelevant. Haven't happened. The story arcs in the game don't happen. None of the villain groups or their plots exist as far as you are concerned, because they ARE the canon in this game. When you RP through a story arc that says "Kheldian's cannot bond with an unwilling host unless that host is severely weakened physically or emotionally", and it makes an important plot point for that story arc, because otherwise Requiem would already rule the universe, you ignore the canon as false. As someone who GMs a lot, my first thought is 'what are the consequences of a Kheldian being able to bond with anyone they want?"

[ QUOTE ]
The only way, and I repeat this for added emphasis...

THE ONLY WAY

to decide if a toon is up for the big bad delete button, is if YOU (yes you, the person playing it and paying the sub' fee's) don't have fun playing that toon any more. End of story.

As for shuffling others around, renaming etc, also your call, though I would advise that with low level toons, maybe it'd be more financially sound to just delete and remake with desired name, as opposed to paying almost a months sub to change it. Not like it'll take you a month to remake a lvl 10 alt is it?

Having said all that, please note this is coming from somone who bought a second account just so he could have more alts because he didn't want to delete any toons at all, so your milage may vary

[/ QUOTE ]

^This

Okay, I'm not really going to one-word-reply. But Ves is right. I have 2 accounts for almost the same reason as him - so that I can have more characters without having to delete any of them. The rest of my reason is so that I can dual-box. Difficult when RPing, but possible with a bit of planning and focus. I got a little tired of Richard and Sam Huntington never being in the same place at the same time, so I made a Sam-alt on my 2nd account. In fact, once I get that Sam up to a high enough level, one of the versions of Sam I have on my main account is targetted for deletion. But I might not, because I like the flexibility of having all those cossie slots for her.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, she's been a vampire for a couple of weeks, after events that took place in PD. And no, I did not see the Nictus thing coming. Honest.

I'm beginning to thing I need to stop getting my characters dragged into other characters' problems though.

[/ QUOTE ]

About time for me to weigh in again. First up, the last thing I want to do is drop on another player with "you're doing it wrong!", but this particular example is a good one for us to use, as it lets us discuss apparent canon violations.

A couple of pages back, someone mentioned that history is written by the victors, and I agree with that (and with the fact that history can be interpreted in many different ways), but what happens when someone's character violates the canon that is known to other characters of the same species? Like: Kheldian's cannot bond with someone who is not willing. This is not an interpretation - it is an established fact that forms a huge part of the Council story arcs in the game.

I don't have any particular issue with the character in question, all told: As I have mentioned elsewhere, if the body was a clone or construct and the nictus inhabited it before it gained a sense of self, then I can see no reason that the character violates canon - and since that is what seems to be the case, I'm more than happy with the character to be (or have inhabiting it, as the case may be) a nictus. Nothing that I am aware of says that a nictus couldn't inhabit a vampire - the problem here stems from the fact that a Kheldian needs a living body to act as a host, else it will die in a few months/years. There are a number of player-created examples of characters where the bond does not exist, yet a Kheldian is parasitically 'riding' the host body, so I don't see any issues there.

My only problem with the character in question is that as far as anyone could see (from AT and bio information) they were a human. Okay, you might say, that's what they look/sound like. Alright. What about werewolves? Traditionally their sense of smell allows them to identify vampires easily. This character is a vampire. Any werewolf nearby would be able to identify them as such, without the player having to ask each and every other player present 'are you a vampire?' Other characters, notably Tiger White and Shadowe in this discussion, have unusual senses that enable them to identify (or at least differentiate) energy sources - but I don't want to have to ask each and every player present 'does your character give off weird or unusual amounts of energy?' every time Richard closes his eyes and concentrates on his 'other' sense.

Now, in the RP that happened, Richard didn't do that. He was operating on the information available to him from his own senses and the slightly improved data from his scanners - none of which would identify a Kheldian. Ellie's abilities, on the other hand, while perhaps being more refined than those of most Kheldians, are not unusual amongst Kheldians - it is known (though how much of this is player fudge, and how much is canon I couldn't comment on) that they can recognise each other on sight. So, when Ellie says, IC, that she can't detect any other Kheldians nearby, Richard, IC takes her at her word - if FFM has checked each and every player bio nearby and can't see "This character has a nictus inside it", or that any of the characters are Kheldians from their AT, then it is perfectly acceptable to assume that no one is trying to fudge possession.

Perhaps the most important thing for me to note (again) is that I don't think the player is wrong to have their character contain a nictus. Nor do I have any issue with the character not being fully bonded. Nor do I think the character violates canon by being what they are (someone who has a nictus within them unwillingly) - the history was clearly thought through to account for these things. The only mis-step that I can see is that other players weren't provided with sufficient information that their characters can (given those characters' powers and abilities) reasonably expect to know. It would be like me not mentioning that Richard has an English accent, then being surprised when everyone assumes he's American (though I expect his speech patterns would point them in the right direction, anyway).

Yesterday, E. Gary Gygax, co-creator of the Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game, died.

His creation invented roleplaying, and without it, we would not be here today. He touched countless lives, indirectly, with this thing he made, and I believe that it has been a positive influence on many, many people.

Rest In Peace.

Ah, ye olde GG Wiki... How I know thee so well.

I guess this would be a good time to suggest to people that the information stored on the old wiki site be (probably slowly) moved to the new one.

If I can find the time today, I'll make a start on my own characters, which is never a bad thing. Might shufty across a couple of other ones that I am aware the players themselves won't do.

I sincerely doubt there's any sort of concensus that can be reached - after all, we're a disparate group of individuals, all with our own ideas of how things work, and newcomers have their ideas...

It could go on forever.

The ultimate point (from my point of view) is that your bio should contain information that 'someone' could reasonably be expected to observe given appropariate senses to do so.

Italics denotes bio information in this example. Normal text is my notes.

Richard Huntington is a handsome man, blue eyes, brown hair, deep-set eyes.
Anyone who can see him can note this.

He speaks with a pronounced English accent.
If you hear him speak, you'll be able to tell this.

Both of those are pulled straight from the current incarnation of his bio. The changes I need to make include the following:

Electromagnetic Spectrum: Richard is incredibly bright to Infra-red vision (despite a skin temperature close to normal), and emits a greater than normal amount of radiation, particularly X-rays and Gamma-rays.

Psychics: There are strong blocks around Richard's mind, preventing casual intrusion.

There. That would do it nicely. Any other information would need to be gained ICly. If I then choose to include background information, that's my prerogative, but I should make it clear that it cannot be known IC.

Canon-following is a much harder topic, and one thing RPers love to do is make the exception that proves the rule. But my personal preference would be for people to not flat-out ignore the history and 'facts' known about various groups and events.

The events in the official history happened, as far as our characters are concerned. The events in the story arcs have also happened, as far as our characters are concerned. When a new Issue is released with a progression to the story, then those events also happen, and quickly become part of the official history. If we ignore it, then we end up with a large pile of fudge, and no crunchy biscuit. Which is not to say that there aren't HUGE holes in the 'facts' that can be exploited - there certainly are! - but if someone made a character claiming to have found the Well of the Furies a week before Statesman and Recluse did, would people believe them?

[ QUOTE ]
((OOC Information: Zorielle will be looking for some heroes in the Unity Vigil or involved in the investigation to start scouting out some of the film restoration companies and businesses in the city to watch for any sign of approach. Those interested can sign up here.))

[/ QUOTE ]

((Consider the Huntingtons signed up for this - Richard's very interested in helping out, and Sam wants to see things through.))

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I’m rambling now so I’ll shut up.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's the kind of topic where only rambling can make a lot of sense really... Without it degenerating into putting people down anyway, which is the last thing I want here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I think that people will post long and rambling points here. And I also hope that we can continue this without it descending into name-calling and pettiness.

Now, I have no problem (never have, never will do) with someone playing 'against type' - with a concept and background that don't strictly match the AT being used to portray the character (though I'd have a hard time accepting a scrapper as a 'peerless archer', I guess) - and I think that most of us would agree that the bio is the place for all the extra details that you can't see at first glance.

I agree with what Dante said about what I'd call location-fudge and enemy-fudge: You work with the tools you've got, and as long as you don't try to force your view of the world on people not involved in your RP, then that's all well and good. Heck, my SG base (in its role as Huntington Manor) should be on two floors, but I simply fake it.

I had another point to make, but thanks to work, I've not forgotten it. I'm sure I'll remember it later. Darn it.

Speaking as one of the players involved (the other player who got confused), I am inclined to agree with you on the point of the confusion caused by that particular bit of interaction.

On the other hand, I know of at least one other scrapper character who has a resident Nictus - but thanks to some decent RP and explanation by the player involved it's rarely, if at all, an issue.

My thinking on this is as follows: If you're playing a character with 'features' that cannot be easily seen by people looking at the character AT, origin and cossie, then your bio should include them (I need to adjust Richard's bio - I've known this for ages).

The things to bear in mind are that other characters have peculiar senses. Take Richard, for example. He can see, hear, touch, taste, smell. Fine. So a physical and audio description make sense. However, he can also 'see' the entire electromagnetic spectrum. And he can differentiate energy sources from dimensions that aren't Union. He tends to express these as flavours. For example, Kitmarch, who technically comes from the Defiant reality, thanks to a wonderful bit of RP-fudgeness by Plasmarch, 'tastes' of rotten strawberries to Richard's energy sense.

It would make sense to me, therefore, for people to try to include things for 'unusual senses' in their character bio. If the character FFM and I were interacting with had in their Bio: "((Rper)) <CharacterName> is a Nictus", I doubt we'd have been so confused. There were other factors that threw the RP off, and yes, it would have been a lot easier if the character had been a Warshade, but a single line in the bio would have let us play our own characters' senses properly.

Having said all that, I think that game canon should only be broken in one or two extreme cases. Firstly, the RP difficulty of the Rejuve pods in the hospitals. They're plot-breaking, and I can't stand them for that reason. I have no issue with the medi-port network, but the ability to insta-heal any and all damage and debilitating effects on a character is, to say the least, problematic for RP in general. I tend to treat it on a case-by-case basis, but my default thinking is that the pods can stabilise pretty much anything, but not heal it.

When it's something that's important to a game-plot (like the fact that Nicti cannot bond with an unwilling host) then I think we should all be observing canon. However, if you can come up with a fudgearound, then go for it! Just don't flat out ignore something so fundamentally important to the game-world.

An example, if you will - taking the Nictus/unwilling host problem. What if the Nictus was implanted into an unquickened clone? Well, the clone can't be unwilling, because it has no volition. And it's alive, so the Nictus can use it as a host. Then, once the Nictus is safely inside, the clone can be woken up. I think we can safely say that the Nictus can remain even if the host is no longer willing (though I'm quite prepared to be wrong on that issue). Hey-presto - problem solved.

This is a very knotty problem, all told, and there is no easy answer. After all, I am aware of someone who used an Eng/Dev blaster to play a powerful Psychic, which at first glance would be better served by a Defender or Controller. I guess the only thing I can suggest at the end of the day is 'Use your bio to the full'.

Actually DC have, from my understanding, said that they don't mind people creating DC rip-offs in CoH. Or words to that effect, anyway. It's a-certain-other-company-that-does-superhero-comics that's caused the troubles with Trademark infringement.

[ QUOTE ]
Same here, it's definately not worth starting a row over.

I do have ONE question though, directed at the players of historical characters. What would you do if another player turned up, playing exactly the same character? Bear in mind that, as they pay their subs too, they have equal rights to portray a public domain historical figure as you do.

In fact, I'm kinda curious as to what anyone would do, if faced with 2 characters claiming to be the same person. I think I'd be inclined ignore both and save myself the aggravation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty much with you on this, Floaty. Of these things are flamewars made. On the other hand, we as (theoretically ) responsible and mature RPers have a duty to avoid letting things like this happen in the first place. After all, worst case scenario, it's not exactly hard to play a character that is based on an historic public domain individual, while having a different name and different backstory.

To take such a person and say that your character actually is that person, and that you therefore have the exclusive right to play that person in the setting, strikes me a rather arrogant attitude.

I will point out that I do not have an opinion one way or another on the characters in question, since I have never seen them played, have barely skimmed the threads here about them, and don't actually care enough to bother - But I will point out the response I got to a question I asked Bridger last year at Bristol Comic Expo, which was "How much do we, the players, actually own our characters?" I forget his exact words, but the answer boiled down to "Not a whole hell of a lot." By utilising a public domain character in game such as CoH, you could potentially be creating a legal minefield for NCSoft.

The only way to be sure would be to /petition yourselves. (I'm certainly not going to do it, because I really don't mind one way or another.)

((Hopefully this will not step on any toes - If it does, please let me know. This is based on an IC conversation between Richard Huntington and Suzi White a few days ago. Edited for corrections.))

The Financial Times

SENTINEL INDUSTRIES TAKEOVER BID?

Many industry leader are concerned by the apparent move by Huntington International Ltd to purchase Sentinel Industries, following the death of its CEO, Erik Mitchell, last week. Inside sources indicate that Dr Richard Huntington III, owner of HI, has taken a personal hand in this action, which resulted in a hand-picked cadre of 'advisors' beginning the task of managing the company.

A formal statement from Huntington International states "Huntington has no interest in the businesses and contracts currently held by Sentinel Industries - this action is being taken as a caretaker opportunity to see Sentinel through the turmoil caused by its recent loss."

Dr Huntington himself made a brief statement in addition to this. "I do not want Sentinel. I do not own Sentinel. I do not ever intend to own Sentinel. The company and all its rights and properties are, and will continue to remain, an asset held by my friend Suzi, whom I am acting under a contractual agreement with, to ensure continuity and the continued success of Sentinel Industries."

Suzi White-Mitchell was unavailable for comment.

Which is why they've given us something like 6 cossies, not 2.

And I agree that it is over-priced. I am not denying that in any way. On the other hand, I've had a plot in mind for a little while involving one of my toons that really needs a wedding dress, and my main has been wanting for a decent dinner-suit for a loooong time. Yes, I agree, it would have been brilliant to have had this for free, but I shell out lot more than £12 a month on books for RP (except I haven't for the last 3 months), so while it is not essential that I have these items, I feel that it is worth forking out a pittance to get them. Anyway, I've made my feelings clear elsewhere, and I'm not disappointed with this.

I had a choice to make about whether I was willing to pay because I wanted this content, and I made that choice. If it was more spandex designs, or armour designs, or new dance emotes, or any of the thousand other things I think we have too much of in this game, I wouldn't have bothered.

Hey, if the man has his heart set on the girl, then we gotta help him out, Cass. Even if he is wooing someone that many might consider the spawn of Satan (I do not, please note, hold this opinion myself - I find one line posts and over-use of smilies... frustrating... but don't despise the perpetrator that much).

Khorak and Golden Girl 4Eva! We shall prevail!

Ahem. Sorry, got all loved up there, for a moment.

The way to a girl's heart is through her... skull?

No, that doesn't seem to work very well.

Be patient. Be loving. Be exciting. And above all, be there to save her from those nasty villains that spawn in RV. Just imagine holding her in your arms after you rescue her, with her eyelashes fluttering, whispering "My Hero!" to you...

Ah, Khorak, you miss the point....

to woo the lady of your dreams you must be prepared to meet her on her own terms. Firstly, you must seek her in her lair, and compliment her - something along the lines of "My Golden angel, you look as lovely as ever, yet there is something strikingly different about your hair. It is so lustrous and seems to move in the breeze. I have never seen you so animated."

Once you've hit her where it counts, you can move onto more subtle and enticing endeavours. "Sweet lady, might this poor soul entreat you to bestow upon me the honour of a dance at the wedding on Friday?" (For anyone not aware - Manticore/Sister Psyche wedding, Friday 15 Feb 2008, Training Server, Starts at 18.00 GMT)

Once you've got her dancing (preferably not the monkey-dance), I suggest direct compliments. "You know, I'm a really lucky guy. Every other man here is jealous, because I'm dancing with the belle of the ball."

You can win this, Khor. She will be yours. Oh, yes. She will be yours.

Unless Richard Huntington gets to her first.

Well, I find myself with a little money to burn right now, and I get my bonus in 15 days, so I've upgraded one account. Other account will be following shortly, because Sam Huntington needs a wedding dress. Honestly. For plot reasons. I kid you not.

Heh. You guys...

Anyway, other than the minor correction that the Galaxy Girl meet tends not to start until 9.00pm (though there will usually be people hanging around earlier than that, like me most nights), every piece of advice given here is good.