Samuel_Tow
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Quote:Well, if all of that's possible with just level 50 Inventions, that's very good news indeed. And, yeah, it is a question that sort of requires a build to answer, but I was mostly looking for how problematic the constraints I'm putting on the build are and if it's even reasonable to expect that to work. It just might, it seems.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Obviously, the first thing you want to do is get your defense soft-capped to normal content. It's not difficult to do that with an SR when you add Invention Sets to the mix.
Next, you'd want to gain some more max HP. You'll probably add to your Max HP by accident when you're chasing other bonuses, so I wouldn't sweat about that too much just yet.
Getting more regen will help too, especially if your concept doesn't allow for Aid Self. Shoot for at least 200%. You might not get all the way to 200%, but it gives you something to aim for. Again, don't sweat it too much if you don't get it to 200%, anything above base value will help.
After that, add some recharge and you should be in good shape.
As far as IO Set building characters, SR is one of the most straight-forward sets to work with. I'm not going to get TOO specific on it, because once I start getting specific I come off as telling people how to build their character, and I'm trying to avoid that.
Ah, another good point - I really dislike having multiple characters working for just one, since I have the tendency to leave a character on a whim and not touch it for a year or two. I have not played the eponymous Samuel Tow seriously since I10. He still does not have a build to account for Inherent Stamina. I might borrow money from other characters, but I can't commit all my resources to just one because the build for that one might not actually ever get finished before I move on.Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
At the risk of telling you what to do, transfer any cash you don't have any immediate use for to the character you're trying to build. Saves hassle down the line when all the resources you're going to commit are already consolidated on one character. -
Quote:Oh, I'm not criticising you, of course. You merely reminded me of one of my primary concerns, which is making my build and my stats "messy." I know this is par for the course for more gear-based RPGs - you have a bunch of miscellaneous buffs from this sword, a bunch of miscellaneous buffs from the shield and so forth - but I kind of liked City of Heroes exactly because it DIDN'T have that. I'm trying to find some way to use Set Inventions without introducing chaos into my orderly world.Originally Posted by RadDidIt
I wanted you to not have to respec anything, which is what I did with my SS/EA when IOs first hit. All I did was slot Kinetic Combats and soft capped myself to SL Def, and still kept my SOs.
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Quote:I forgot to mention something I DO know about Inventions. Some sets you can only buy with Alignment Merits, some sets you can only buy with Reward Merits. This is never more true than when looking at knockback protection. The Karma and Steadfast Protection knockback protection enhancements are both only available via Reward Merits, but the Blessing of the Zephyr enhancement is only obtainable via Alignment Merits.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Buying things with Reward Merits gets expensive in terms of how many you have to send to get stuff. But, you can cash in 50 reward Merits and 20 million cash for Alignment Merits. So, if you know you need 2 alignment merits for something, and you've already gotten one from somewhere, you can take some of those reward merits you've probably also got and add some cash to get what you need without spending 100's of millions on it or 240 Reward Merits.
This brings up another question: You say that you "frequently" gain enhancement percentage, but am I right to suspect that there's a not insignificant number of situations when you do?Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Actually, you'll frequently GAIN enhancement by using Set Inventions.
Mako's Bit gives you, at level 50: 66.25% Accuracy, 93.64% Damage, 66.25% End Reduction, and 66.25% Recharge. Or the equivalent of 9 SOs worth of enhancement across the entire power. You'll lose a tiny bit of damage, but you'll gain twice as much accuracy, end reduction, and recharge over SO slotting.
In contrast, 1 Acc/1End/1Rech/3Dam will give you 38% to Acc/End/Rech and 95% to Damage.
It brings up another question, too: I like uniformity, but can I slot with Set Inventions and still have at least my roughly equivalent attacks be slotted the same? This isn't as vitally important as keeping everything at level 50, but I really would like to have, say, Rib Cracker and Shin Breaker slotted the same, since I use them almost interchangeably in combat. I know they have their different debuffs and I do try to make use of that sometimes, but in general, they're two straight-up attacks that mostly do damage.
This reminds me of something else I wanted to ask: How many holes would I need to leave with Inventions builds like this? The above talks about melee an AoE defence, but it leaves the character vulnerable to ranged damage. This is a build that concerns me, especially considering SR is one of the few sets which offers perfectly uniform defence all the way around.Quote:Originally Posted by RadDidIt
Touch of Death ( all level 40 max ) 6 slotted in every ST attack.
Scirocco's Dervish in the PBAoEs. Six slotted for simplicity.
That will cap you to Melee and almost AoE without doing anything insane.
Edit: capping to range and AoE becomes less easy for keeping it simple. -
Quote:OK, I'll bite. I'm looking to mess with Inventions only once I hit 50. Buying them and then replacing them is NOT an option, so let's say we're building at 50. The character has everything from Street Justice and everything from Super Reflexes, and there really isn't anything I want to give up. For pools, right now she has Combat Jumping, Super Jump, Conserve Power, Physical Perfection and I intend to take Focused Accuracy and Hasten. I ran the list of power pools that made sense for her concept and were things I didn't hate, and the only ones I came up with were Speed, Presence and Body. Fighting made thematic sense, but it requires me to take a junk attack I don't want because of how Street Justice is set up with its combo metre.Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
Sam,
I love super reflexes builds. Also, super reflexes builds are one of the easier sets to IO out, and it is pretty easy to explain why everything is done. The only possible trick may be in getting your build soft-capped at the level you are at currently.
What level are you now, and what powers do you intend to pick from the primary and secondary? What pool and travel powers do you like, and which do you always hate? Are you open to the Fighting pool, and to Combat Jumping? Super Speed? Or what?
It wouldnt be too tricky to put together (for *me* to put together) a relatively cheap build that is easy to explain and craft, if you can tell me a few of these details about your character.
Lewis
Jun here is designed to be a no-holds-barred agile fighter who relies on her speed, her wits and her ability to punch really hard. She's smart, but not technically inclined, so no devices or weapons of any kind. No fancy powers like teleportation, magic or spirituality, no leadership capabilities as she's just 15. Those are most of the constraints that informed my build choices.
And, really, don't worry about me making the build at this point. I just want to understand what goes where and why it goes there. -
See, if the window of opportunity were smaller between when I learned of Wade's plan and when that plan actually came through, I would have less of a problem with it. However, even though a timeline is never established, one is pretty easy to infer.
See, when I learn of Wade's plan, I'm in the Rogue Isles, where his lair is. That's east of the US East Coast, but not by much. However, Wade's plan has to take place in Cimerora, which if it had anything at all to do with the Roman Empire, is somewhere in central Europe, at most Western Europe. In order for me to show up at the Cimeroran ruins, I would have to have travelled to an airport and taken a jet across the Atlantic, and even at super sonic speed, that'll take a few hours. I would also have had to charter said jet, most likely from the Freedom Phalanx.
I would need to have contacted the Freedom Phalanx at some point to requisition said jet, or even just to report back, and the news that Darrin can kill the Statesman would likely have been VERY important. Important enough to broadcast all over Cimerora for the Statesman to hear. In fact, the first thing I would have done upon leaving Wade's cave - knowing full well that he intends to kill the Statesman several hours from now, is contact Italian authorities... Or French, or Spanish or wherever Cimerora is... And had them send in a chopper with a Loudspeaker running the message that "Attention Statesamn! Darrin Wade knows of a way to kill you!" Technically, the Statesman does not need rescue, he needs warning, and sending a message via radio, internet, telephone or any other form of instant communication is a lot quicker than sending ME over there. Local authorities should be able to mobilise within minutes, whereas it would take me hours to cross the Atlantic and arrive just in time for the Statesman to die.
The other side of that coin is the Statesman doesn't act like he's in turmoil on the inside. He doesn't look like he's holding bestial rage inside his heart, ready to burst out and crush Darrin's head like an overripe melon. I'm sure he's tortured, but the way the Statesman acts, it comes off like he's already made peace with his inner demons and is resolved to be a better person. That's why I'd have thought he'd start by picking up a phone and saying "Yeah, Liberty? Sorry I ran off, but I have Darrin. I'll bring him back to Paragon City soon." This would then give Ms. Liberty the opportunity to channel Admiral Ackbar and go "It's a trap!"
I get what they're trying to do here. It's the classic "a day late and a dollar short" story where the rescue arrives just a moment too late. However, it just seems like there were so many ways to warn the Statesman or summon help for him from abroad without having to go there in person, or at least BEFORE going there in person.
And again - why am I there alone? Wouldn't the rest of the Phalanx have wanted to come help out? I'm sure they have more direct access to Atlantic-crossing-capable aircraft sitting in their HQ than I do on the butt end of the Rogue Isles deep inside enemy territory.
Stories like these rely on robbing me of my ability to warn the victim, robbing me of my ability to summon help and forcing me to rush over alone. And if this were happening across the island I was on, I could see how I could be the only one who could respond in time, but when you're talking about travelling from America to Europe, that really opens up just too big a gap of time for someone to have done something. -
A couple more things:
Quote:That's right on the money. I don't know what I want to build for. I don't know what I CAN build for, let alone what I should, never you mind what I actually want to get out of the whole thing. I guess, if we boil it down to its barest essentials, what I want is to die less and kill more, but that's really not saying much.Originally Posted by SolarSentai
The main thing with inventions, in my opinion, is first figuring out what you specifically want to do with your build.
Let's use my above build as sort of an example - I don't want to restrict the discussion to just one build, but it might help. What would a SJ/SR/Body Scrapper want out of Inventions? How much of that can be achieved using only level 50 Inventions? How much of that would involve "expensive" inventions? How much am I shooting myself in the foot?
I was a lot younger at the time, as well. I started university probably 10 years ago now, and I treated it a lot like school, lacking the real understanding of what I'd need to know when I actually had to use that stuff professionally. But, yeah, a lot of the time even when theorems were proven, they relied on believing other theorems which were never even addressed. Maybe Mathematics really is just like that, but I like to think we can get down to the individual axioms before we start taking things for granted. I like to have a grasp on my chosen field, as it were.Quote:Originally Posted by Mazey
Sounds like you should have taken a pure mathematics degree instead. In mine, at least, you essentually weren't allowed to use a theorem unless you understood why it worked.
I should note that I have only a single character who has a billion Inf, which she made off three Purple recipes that dropped on her over the span of two days. Aside from her, most of my characters have never seen 100 million INF in their pockets all at once. Just for the sake of basic reference of the means I'm working with.Quote:Originally Posted by SolarSentai
Anything in the 500k to 10m range I consider cheap. Anything 10m - 50m I consider moderate. 50m+ expensive. A lot of stuff you can get during normal play. Recipes do drop often. And the salvage drops a plenty too. -
Quote:When I say "just running story arcs," I don't mean to say I'll never use the Market so much as that I'll likely be buying everything with either Influence or Reward Merits, since that's what Story Arcs grant. What I also mean is I DO NOT WANT to grind Alignment missions or Architect missions or farm anything. What's at stake here is my motivation to persevere. When I'm motivated, I can work my *** off and still have fun at it. I routinely clear outdoor maps of enemies AND fog of war by hand and never feel like I'm wasting my time, but set me down to run the same Architect arc twice in a row (or, really, even just once) and I start wondering about what other games I own.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You'll definitely want to run some tip missions to acquire Hero or Villain merits to buy some of the pricier/harder to find items directly. Nothing you'll be likely to use will cost you more than 2 Alignment merits. Otherwise it's just luck of the draw. There are a few pieces that you'll HAVE to buy directly via some means, because they almost never drop in regular content. Fortunately, the devs have made that a lot easier on us in recent years.
And that's not me trying to start trouble, that literally is how it feels.
See, that's a problem, and one that's not as easy to overcome as just doing my homework and putting in the time. I say I don't want to farm, but I can be convinced to at least try it out. But when it comes to a messy build, that's a deal-breaker. See, I like neatness and order. It calms me down and makes me focused. A build that looks pristine, orderly, almost factory-made is something I can be proud of. A build that looks like I duct-taped various builds together into a hodgepodge of whatever I ran across is the primary reason I don't play any other MMOs... Or really, any other RPGs. I can put up with it, but it wears on me and kills the game for me in the end.Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It's very possible to do, but depending on the goals of your build it may not be feasible for all of them. For example, if you're building for positional defense with a set like SR, Shield, or Ninjitsu, you can have a build that is all level 50 enhancements. If you're building for typed defense for a set like Willpower, Ice, or Invuln, you'll pretty much have to have a variety of levels involved. The reason for that is that positional defense bonuses are found in sets that go all the way to level 50 (Obliteration, Mako's Bite, Scirocco's Dervish), while a lot of the typed defense bonuses are found in sets that cap lower (Eradication, Kinetic Combat).
Sacrificing power for neatness, furthermore, goes against the very reason I'm still here with City of Heroes - because I can make a strong character that is also appealing to me. Are you honestly saying that there's NO way to build Set Inventions builds for some characters out of all level 50 Inventions? That... Would be really bad. Or do you mean that it's just not as productive or not as easy? That might not be as bad.
I want to elaborate a bit here. A couple of weeks ago, my project lead at work asked me to make him a Java programme that had a particularly convoluted, complex interface. Java has a tool package to do this - Swing - but it's something I had never worked with, or even heard of. I spent some of the worst could of weeks of my life wrestling with this mass of tangled logic with no really good guides as to how to even break into the subject matter, and I had to more or less relearn everything I knew about programming. I'm just about on top of it now, but I would not want to do that again.Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
This is a case of a little bit of research going a long way. I've absorbed a lot of information in my use of the Invention system, and I can tell when I build something in Mids' roughly how much it will cost me to do in-game. The best part of that is I didn't really have to try and learn it, I just ind of picked it up as I went along. I don't remember ever sitting down and saying "I'm going to learn about Inventions today"
That's more or less what Inventions are to me, to a large extent - a huge sea of unknowns that I don't even know where to begin with, and that I need to spend a considerable amount of time and effort to gain at least some basic understanding of so I'm not talking out of my ***, so to speak.
How much of that depends on alternating between different characters, though? I ask this because my preferred method of playing is to focus on one at a time and play that until I'm bored, then swap to another. I've been told to just put bids on stuff I want then go play another character for a week, then come back and see what I got, and that's... Really not going to happen. Every time I swap characters, I go through a day or two of readjustment, and that time is not actually fun at all. Swapping characters too often puts me in constant "not fun" and ruins the whole game. I've only ever cancelled for two weeks since Launch, and THAT was the reason why. I started swapping characters so much the game began to feel like a chore.Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you have all the cash you'll need to purchase stuff from the market, not much work at all. What I do if I'm trying to put a character's build together, is I'll stop by the market at the beginning of a play session and place bids on the stuff I need. Then I just play like I normally would and either check the market before I log off, or check it the next time I log that character in. Checking it one time when you log in will probably be less hassle. You can see what you managed to acquire and place bids on stuff all at once.
If I may go on a tangent here a little bit - and I do thank you for saying this: I'm trying to build a SJ/SR Scrapper right now. She's a favourite one of mine, and I love the concept dearly. However, regardless of my slotting, SR on Scrappers can't really get much past ~32% defence to all positions. I considered various Alpha combinations, but at best I'm seeing a 2-3% extra defence unless I go into T4, and that's a whole other can of worms that's not worth bringing up here. But then I learned that most of the enemies in Dark Astoria - the supposed solo Incarnate path - have Trial level base to-hit, which last I checked was around 65-66%.Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I've always respected, and defended your desire to avoid using IOs. You can play the game however you like, and I was never one of the people that made a huge argument out of it. But, if you're serious about delving into fully IOed builds, I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have about specific builds, as well as general knowledge questions like these.
SR at 32.?% is just barely tennable, and I get killed by a lot of silly stuff if I'm not careful. But it works, just about. That's against enemies with a base to-hit of 50%. Against enemies with a base to-hit of even just 65%, that is NOT workable in the slightest, and there's nowhere I can get much more defence from. I can maybe snag a couple of % from Weave, maybe one or two from... Somewhere else, but the best I can hope to do is break even at a higher endurance cost and with a build that's already compromised beyond my ability to care. And whenever I ask for help, people tell me it's my choice to gimp myself by not using Inventions and that I don't listen when I try to explain my preferences.
I no longer feel like I have any choice in the matter. Clearly, the Incarnate system expects me to have built for defence and is compensating for that. At this point, I feel that I can either build for defence for real, or otherwise beach the character at level 50 and never progress past that point, even though I really, really wanted to. Right now, I'm trying to figure out if it's even possible to make a Set build that works and doesn't compromise my desires so completely. Because if it's not, then I honestly don't know what I'm going to do.
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7. Incidentally, I thought of another question to ask: Is it possible to build with Set Inventions without losing enhancement percentage off the basic 1ACC/1END/3DAM slotting? What is this, like, number seven? -
Quote:You'd still be flat broke because you'd be operating under the flawed assumption that power customization and others were said to be "impossible" when that was never the case.Originally Posted by VKhaun
I've played off and on since launch, and if I had a penny for every time I've heard that about something that got put in the game would have paid for itself and it's subs.
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Quote:See, this is kind of exactly the way I DON'T want to go. About the worst thing for me is to just have someone give me a build for me to copy-pase into my character and just play with it. Talk about the death of personal involvement in that character. At that point, I'm not playing my own character, I'm playing someone else's template. Not good.Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
The best thing to do is go to the build workshop or your archtype area. Ask for help. I am not a great builder, and a worse marketeer. But there are folks out there who can take a "I need a cheap StJ/WP build that performs okay" statement and within a few hours you get a reply "Paste this in mids, the build should cost 375mil if you spend careful, and it has good def, resists, and +X global rech" Trying to tackle MIDs, the Market, and a plan for earning all at once may seem overwhelming.
I don't mean to sound dismissive here, but if I am physically incapable of working with something when I don't comprehend what I'm doing on at least a fairly decent level. Whenever I see a build, for instance, my instincts are to point to an enhancement and ask "Why is this here?" Not as a challenge to whoever made the build, either, but just because I can't operate unless I know the "why" of the matter. That's one of the reasons I eventually gave up trying towards the end of my Applied Mathematics degree, because time and again I was simply told that that's what the 16th Century theorem said, so just take it on faith.
My attempt here is to get just a basic, bottom line understanding of what the hell I'm doing here and why I'm doing it, set some baseline goals and see what it takes to achieve them.
*edit*
See, this is also something I hope to try and avoid. One of the things I like most about City of Heroes is that I can sit down and play it without worrying about whether I'm playing it the "right" way. I like to run story arc missions as much as I can, and it's what I find entertaining. If it transpires that I HAVE to farm for INF or Merits and that I can't play the story arc I want right now since it doesn't drop the right kind of currency and I have to go grind Architect missions, instead, that would be... Depressing. And would serve to make the game a lot less fun.Quote:Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
My advice is to find a plan to get the cash. A-Merits, marketing, or Farming. Then while you are earning start posting asking for help on a build. While you are getting your build worked out you can be earning for it in game. Good Luck! -
Quote:Considering our history, I want to take every opportunity I can to agree with Claws where I can, and here I agree wholeheartedly.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Especially if applied retroactively.
It would really suck if you chose a specific origin because of your backstory and then they introduced something that breaks your character badly when applied to that powerset.
I like my origin like it is, thanks. I don't want to feel like I have to make every character a specific origin because it has the best selection of bonuses to it. There will be a consensus reached as to which origin has the best set of bonuses in it, and you will rarely see a character of any other origin afterward.
Making Origins "matter" has always been a capital mistake in my eyes, on the level of making costume pieces matter. It's not necessary, and it just gets in the way of creative writing. It also runs into the problems of loose definition and retroactive fitting.
Origins, as they stand now, are very loosely defined, and players have interpreted them even more loosely. As far as I'm aware, it is physically impossible to corral all the characters ever made of one specific origin around one specific interpretation of it.
Take the definition of Magic the OP seems to be using. It mentions magic words, magic artefacts, rituals and trinkets, all of which would be of no bearing in the slightest to my own Spirit of Light, who is simply a possessed suit of armour with no external power source. It's a soul inside a suit, and a soul of a fighter, not a mage. He doesn't use magic gear, he doesn't cast magic, he doesn't even wear clothing. He's a poltergeist, essentially. Yes, it's somewhat sideways of the traditional magic user, but that's the point - the loosely defined Origin allowed me to take my creativity farther afield, and I'm happy for it.
Origins have also existed with no real benefit to characters for over seven years... In fact, we're coming on eight soon. In this time, many characters have been made, and many people have gone to great lengths to min-max them. Many others have gone to great lengths to pick the origin which best fits the concept. Retrofitting benefits into origins just makes people feel cheated with no way to fix that. Origins can't be respecced, and a T4 everything Incarnate with 1000+ badges is not something you want to reroll because your origin sucks all of a sudden. Moreover, it sucks when I HAVE to reroll a character into an origin different that doesn't fit his concept just to get a mechanical benefit.
I should never be put in a position of having to choose between performance and cosmetics. That's one of the key selling points of City of Heroes. Origins don't matter in the same way costumes don't matter, and that's the point. It's so you can pick the one you LIKE, as opposed to the one you NEED. -
*edit*
Yes, I'm resurrecting this thread because I have just a few more questions to ask. You may want to skip to the end.
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I know I've made these threads occasionally and never followed up on them, but it's starting to become very, very clear that I may simply no longer have a choice in the matter if I intend to play any part of the game newer than 2009 or so. So, because people seem to love accusing me of not listening, this is me throwing in the towel and asking to listen.
I actually do have a few specific questions in mind, and none of them are character- or AT-specific. Just general ones.
1. What must one do to acquire the resources needed to make Inventions - recipes and salvage? Can this be done by just playing Story Arcs and regular missions like I always have, or do I need to run Architect missions or farm Alignment missions or such?
2. Is it possible to build specifically at level 50, using only level 50 Inventions, or do I have to have a menagerie of different numbers on my Enhancements screen?
3. What defines "cheap" vs. "expensive" sets? Market price? Ticket cost? Merit cost? Is there any way to tell which is which before I commit to it?
4. Does everyone have to build for Defence? Seemingly, whether your sets provide defence or not, and even whether you're melee or not, everyone suggests building for defence. What else should I build for as a general thing? Recharge? Endurance? What?
5. Is it possible to develop a basic template that's at least generally applicable to a whole AT with whatever amount of tweaking, or does every character essentially require starting a build design from scratch?
6. How much work is it to put together a decent, "cheap" build at the level cap as opposed to, say, buying a full set of Common Inventions, assuming I have the build worked out beforehand?
I'm not trolling, I'm not joking, I'm not even just talking empty. I simply don't have the strength to fight people tooth and nail about not using Inventions any more when newer content clearly assumes I am. I'm starting to feel like I have to either "get with the programme" or quit the game entirely. And I don't want to quit the game quite yet, if at all possible. So this is me giving up and just trying to wrap my head around the thing. -
Quote:Well, to repeat my old 2004 "Capes at 20" argument: Tying exclusive rewards to content is not a bad idea. But there are better rewards to tie to it than costume pieces, because the "worth" of a costume piece cannot be measured, much as the art team might believe that the newer pieces are "better" than the old ones. A costume piece's worth is only measured by how much it improves the look it is used for, and that depends squarely on what look that is. You end up loading costume pieces with a value they don't deserve just so that they're "valuable enough" to work for, and it doesn't have to be this way.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The compromise is not between what we want and what the devs want. The compromise is between the principle that the players should get as many options as can be created and the principle that tying exclusive rewards to content is a reasonable approach to improving the sense of value of both the rewards and the content. Anyone arguing unilaterally that either principle is just wrong, is just wrong. Both have advantages and disadvantages, and like essentially every aspect of this game's design the Roman pack is a compromise between competing principles that are mutually exclusive at their logical extremes.
There are plenty of things to hold back as rewards. I remember talking about specific titles and title colours, or specific powers, or you could go the conventional route and just give out practical rewards for tasks and people have proven that they'll do them.
Look at it this way, though - if I want the Romulus Sword, I want it because it fits a concept, and then earning it becomes an obstacle, rather than a sense of pride. If it DOESN'T fit a concept, then I plain and simple do not want it, and earning it becomes an empty gesture. Holding back costume pieces as rewards relies on people wanting to use those pieces as status symbols, and al this does is entice people into making horrid ugly costumes just because they worked for that piece and they want to show it off, good taste and decent design be damned.
I really don't see how that's an unwinnable argument, though. The people who argue that selling things you can earn in-game is pointless have already won - they don't have to buy them, and can instead earn them. They stand to lose nothing at all. In fact, if new store items are given an in-game earnable version per character, they'd only stand to gain, so I really don't see it as that difficult a dilemma.Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One of the things I predicted even *before* Freedom was announced and repeated often after it was announced was that F2P would create a schism in the playerbase between those who thought selling things you could not also earn in-game was unfair, and those who thought selling only things you could also earn in-game was pointless. -
Quote:I'm not actually trying to rib on the guy. Not this time, anyway. For the first time in the SSAs, I saw someone acting better than the bottom-of-the-barrel incompetent tool that I'd come to expect of the Freedom Phalanx. The Statesman was calm, controlled and coordinated. He acted like a hero, like the hero he SHOULD BE! I was amazed at that, genuinely. Once upon a time, I asked for ideals in this game, and in his final moments, the Statesman does act like one. I find that commendable.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
He flew off so he could have the time to really turn things over in his mind and cool off enough to not tear Darrin Wade limb from limb.
The thing, though, is I'm not sure I can follow his logic all the way through, even with your explanation. He flew away so he wouldn't murder somebody, I get that. But once he cooled off, why NOT call the team and say "Hey, folks, I'm in Europe. I picked up Darrin's trail. Just thought you should know I'm not dead yet." Even if the guy felt like he didn't need any backup - and with his power, that's understandable - why NOT fill your team in on your investigation and ask them if they haven't, by any chance, uncovered evidence that Darrin Wade knows how him? You know, get all the information you can before you confront the guy who's been taunting you.
What I'm saying is it seems like the Statesman is being pulled in two different directions with this arc. He's heartbroken and irresponsible, but then at the same time, he's really not. I can see him being either one or the other intermittently, but he can't be both at the same time, and at the time when he's NOT heartbroken, they why is he still acting distant? I'm not even talking about issuing an apology or calling for backup. Just pick up a phone and go "Hi, I'm in Italy about to attack Wade. Tell me everything you've learned about him so I know what to expect."
It makes sense for the Statesman to not call for info or backup mostly if his judgement is compromise, which it really isn't right at the end, is what I'm saying.
I have one of those, but it only helps with simple NPC dialogues where I can infer its context just from the text. However, because NPC chatter often comes out in a jumbled order AND in that particular fight where each comment corresponds to what happened in the actual battle, it's just impossible to follow any of it. Like I said - that's nine characters, each of which says about five or six lines of text, all of which get recorded out of order in my NPC Dialogue tab, and it's just a monumental chore to read. I mean, I can read the text, but I can't understand it and I certainly can't appreciate the wit behind it when combat is long since over.Quote:Originally Posted by Lycantropus
OH! Sam, you mentioned earlier about not being able to read all the speech baloons above the characters because they disappeared before you could read them. If you right click on the tab you're on and choose EDIT, you can add 'NPC dialog' and 'Cutscene Captions' to your chat bar so you can backtrack the walls of text in the proper order and see what they're saying. I set that for all my characters. It's good for picking up clues I might have missed, and story I might not have noticed.
It seems to me like whoever's writing the NPC speech bubbles and captions is doing so as if the game has live actor voice-over so you can absorb the words without having to take time away from fighting. Thing is, the game DOESN'T have voice-over narration, and someone of limited cognition like me can either fight OR read, so anything that is said in a fight, I'll probably miss, or if I try to read it, I'll probably die. If it's just one speech bubble, I can manage, but if there are multiple of them coming from multiple sources, it's just overwhelming.
The funny thing is that it's significantly harder for me to just read the frikkin' text than it is to beat the people who are saying. And that just isn't right.
OK, I admit. This had me laughing out loudQuote:Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
That's where the current direction of co-op content is taking us. You better learn to like it!
It's funny, because it's true. Ouroboros, the Midnight Club, Vanguard, they're all accepting genuine villains in their ranks. And I don't mean anti-heroes, I mean player villains from red-side. Not only that, but this drive to find the middle point between heroes and villains, rather than providing an experience that appeals to both, just ends up providing an experience that appeals to neither.
See, it can't be all bad because then heroes would refuse to do it, so content has to be hero-centric. But it can't be all good because villains would feel out of place, so all the contacts are largely heroic, but they're complete ******** about it. Levantera, for instance, spends half her time telling you you're cooperating with villains and the other half acting like a villain trapped in a hero's storyline. Similarly, we have Mender Tesseract, a complete and utter *****, in an organisation our heroes are supposed to be working with. Feh!
So, yeah, having a villain in your world-saving super team does seem to make sense when you put it like that. -
Quote:I agree with this wholeheartedly, actually. My Slime Girl would really like to have the bottoms of her feet be as seamless as the tops. I honestly expected the "Full" boots to be full tights, but they're not. They still have a sole on the bottom. I would indeed like to see an option that's tights all around.Originally Posted by _Akry_
One of the things I'd like to see is just tights w/o the sole option. Not "soul", but sole, the bottom of the shoe, as in more like just wearing socks without shoes, but for tights. Several comic characters tend to have this look, and I'd like it is an option as well.
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Quote:I just want to say that while I try to share your rigorous process of approval, two weeks to six month from coming up with a character to actually making it is... Wow! I don't know if I could remember the basic idea this long, let alone mull it overOriginally Posted by Captain-Electric
The average time it takes for me to create a character in City of Heroes, from first thought to character registration, is between two weeks and six months. I have 25 characters. They are like little pieces of art. I enjoy playing them all, and they all bring something new and different to the game world. I have never gotten bored with any of them. A lot of the time, my process for making new characters is a lot simpler - I'll get an idea, I'll think about it for a day or two, then bug one of the roughly three people I know who are willing to discuss character concepts with me (Nuclear Toast will probably get cold chills from me saying that ), explain the concept, outline the problems I see with it, ask for what problems my conversation partner can add to the pile, then take some time to either explain them away or scrap the character.
If I sit on a character concept for more than a week, there's a larger problem at work that's delaying me. Either I don't have the costume pieces I need, but know they'll be coming soon, I don't have the powersets I want but know they'll be added or proliferated shortly or I'm too engrossed in another character I'm playing at the moment and don't have the opportunity to make new ones. Yeah, that means that I'll occasionally make a flub *coughInsaneRickcough* Sorry, winter weather. Anyway, I'll occasionally make a flub or two, but these are characters I can either reimagine by giving them a better storyline or... Well, reroll into better ones.
To be honest, I delete level 50 characters for two reasons. Either they're Blasters from before I knew I hated the AT, or they're characters I made to the best of my ability when they were made, but much better options became available after they got to 50. And, really, as long as a character has a backstory of any kind, it's good enough to get to 50. -
Quote:Why? Worried you're paying for something other people can get for free?Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Indeed, I for one don't think you should be able to buy things that are obtainable via gameplay.
Oh, and just for parity's sake, let's invert the question.
Why? Worried that you're investing too much effort into something others can get for no effort at all?
See, this is the trick to good micro-transactions: We're trading money for convenience. Because when appearance insulated from gameplay is concerned, having or not having specific costumes really IS a question of convenience. -
So far, I've deleted four level 50 characters. None of them were particularly hard. The first three were actually immensely easy.
I deleted a level 50 Assault Rifle/Devices/Munitions Blaster, a level 50 Fire/Fire/Flame Blaster and a level 50 Energy/Energy/Force Blaster. I deleted all of them because after seven ******* years of trying to make Blasters work and failing hard AND pissing myself right off, I essentially lost patience with the whole AT and resolved to reroll ALL of my Blasters as something else. Three of them just happened to be level 50.
The above three are now a Bots/Traps Mastermind, a Fire/Fire Scrapper and an Energy/Will Brute, and I'm having ten times more fun with those by not living in constant fear for my life. Once upon a time, I put up with Blasters' fragility because they got about enough damage to compensate. But after so many fixes to Scrapper and Brute protection sets so the ones that used to suck no longer do and ESPECIALLY after Inherent Stamina, my Blasters were simply lagging SO far behind everyone else I felt it was a massive disservice to the character concepts behind them. The three I rerolled are now much better off. They're no longer afraid of bosses and they can approach fights with confidence, as opposed to abject terror.
The other one I rerolled was a level 50 MA/Inv/Weapons Scrapper, who is now a level 50 SS/Inv/Energy Brute, and I couldn't be happier for it. She may actually have been my first 50 delete, but it was SO worth it. I originally made her back in 2004 when the only Melee AT I wanted to play was a Scrapper and Martial Arts was the closest Scrappers had to anything super strength like. Since then, I'd built up her concept significantly, and made her into a character out-and-out defined by being effectively indestructible. Of the three melee ATs I want to play now - Stalkers, Scrappers and Brutes - Brutes are the AT defined by being hard to kill, so she's a Brute now. And I love it. She's still damn strong, she's very tough and she's my favourite Incarnate, as well as the one I tested the waters in the new Dark Astoria with.
Oh, right! There was a fifth level 50 I deleted. My old level 50 Sword/Inv/Fitness Scrapper, whose picture you've probably seen me post all over the forums. Well, Xanta's a level 46 Titan/Inv/Energy Brute now. Check it, old vs. new!
I made Xanta back in... Oh, man... 2005? 2006? Back when the only two weapon sets Scrappers had were Broadsword and Katana. I originally just wanted to remake my Orc girl from Lineage II (cool orcs, horrible game) who used a giant two-handed sword and was fairly scantily clad, but the Legacy Broadsword was the only thing I had access to. I got her to 50 way, way back when, but when Titan Weapons came out, I HAD to reroll her, I just had to. No choice, no option, no other way. That's what she was born to be, and I couldn't be happier with it.
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Occasionally, people ask me... Why delete a 50? Why not just start the character over on another server or move or rename the old one? I don't want to start on another server because I can't get the name on another server and I'm not looking to expand out of Victory and Pinnacle any time soon. As for the others... Because they cost money.
Really, though, the bottom line is I play for concept and I play for story. Once I've taken the concept out of a character, why keep it? What good is it to leave a character just sort of there if I won't do anything with it? Why would I want to hold up a slot with an old, useless character when I can make a brand new one in it? Why, so I can ret-con that character into a completely different concept and save myself the levelling process? Why would I do that? To me, a character needs to play through all of his or her levels personally, because those are the levels that sell me on the concept and flesh out the character as it interacts with the game world. Besides, the game's there to play it, not skip playing it. If I have another Sword/Inv Scrapper I want to make at some point, I'll start over. It's all part of the game. -
Quote:I'm on board, then. Shoot me a tell and I'll rip it a new one!Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Well I've buckled down and started my AE project, and am re-writing and updating all the old, ignored, poorly written story arcs that stand alone (Starting with Bonefire, Clockwork Captive, etc.) and, without changing the story itself, incorporating more lore and the opportunity to work with Paragon's Heroes. It'll take me a bit due to limited time, but I've already started on it and I think they'll be a lot of fun. I'll probably start a seperate thread when I start publishing for feedback and ideas. I smile, but ask anyone who's asked me to review their story arcs before publishing. I take notes. Lots and lot of notes. For every minor thing you can imagine, plus a fair few you probably didn't thing were even "things" to begin with. So... Really, up to you
Personally, he strikes me as Batman if Bruce Wayne were the Punisher before he became Batman. So, when he was a child, his family was murdered in front of him, but when he grew up, his new family were murdered in front of him, and now he's an angry angry hippo. I mean an angry angry super hero. I mean an angry angry... Eh, never mind.Quote:Originally Posted by Lycantropus
I agree with a lot of what's been said about Manticore. However, I can't compare him to just Batman. He's close but not the same animal, so to speak. I kind of see him as more like a combination of Batman and Wolverinen than just Batman.
Now, I don't know much about Wolverine in the comic books, and I BLOODY HATE Wolverine from the movies because he's the ******* centre of the universe! Ahem... But the Wolverine I'm most familiar is the one from the 90s Fox cartoon. That man was NOT a team player, that much is obvious, but he at least had redeeming qualities above and beyond "is useful, somehow."
This is especially evident in the first few episodes. When the whole team is preparing to assault the Mutant Registry building, Wolverine takes off on his own to look for Jubilee. You'd think it's an ******* thing to do, but he does eventually show up to help them. "Trail went cold. Got bit by a dog, too." It's not quite an apology, but you can tell the guy at least means well, in his own way. Later, he's seen punching Cyclops in the gut, then making his car into a convertible, as he puts it, because he blames the man for Morph's death. While an ******* thing do considering they were being overwhelmed, it's nevertheless true and something most people just don't want to say. But he still stays with these people and fights to protect them, even putting his own life on the line (in a show where he isn't completely and ridiculously immortal).
Manticore just comes off like a sauerkraut. Everyone bothers him, he doesn't care about anyone, he causes problem after problem... He has the "jerk" down and I suppose he IS useful, but he never gives me the impression he gives a toss for any of these people. Granted, the whole of the Phalanx is written as bickering children for some reason, but at least most of the bickering is people standing up for other people, and Manticore doesn't even have that. Even the one time he really SHOULD show compassion for someone, when his wife is in mortal danger, all he cares about is killing Malaise. Oh, he mentions her, yeah - as an excuse to get past Liberty. But when he actually does get in, what does he care about? How the Dirge helps his plan. And considering the Dirge is what helps put his wife in a coma... Yeah, he doesn't care.
What the hell possessed Sister Psyche to marry that distant, abusive, arrogant *******?
I don't know... Is the War Earth plotline "old" in regards to Going Rogue? As in, is it out of date now? Because I recall going to War Earth in the Tina and/or Maria storylines, and the place didn't stike me as being a very sentimental realm, in the sense that I didn't get the impression people valued compassion and friendship so much as military discipline, honour in battle and the might of a warrior. It just strikes me as the kind of place where you'd be laughed out of the guild if you make a very obviously wrong tactical call and get hurt for it.Quote:Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Valkyrie has that whole 'warrior spirit' thing going on. She's an archeologist when out of costume, but she literally has a different personality as Valkyrie. She's be all about the 'in your face' revenge, and while she might admit that BaB was making tactical sense, her War Earth mentality would have stood by her friend and help her get the vengance she was seeking. Maybe stupid, but her heart's in the right place.
That's why Valkyrie surprised me so much. I get Mynx being a little jerk just based on how I've seen her act in the few comic books I've read, but Valkyrie I thought was the capable, thinking warrior type, rather than the berserker. Maybe I'm over-thinking it, but I'd have expected Valkyrie to actually yank Liberty by the collar and tell her flat in the face how stupid she is for going to the Isles herself. She HAS to have known what would happen.
I don't know. I'd have at least expected her to acknowledge that that's not a smart decision, but it's one she has to support just because it's the honourable thing to do. Even if she doesn't act better, she should at least KNOW better, and the way she acts is almost like he's chastising BABs for NOT going in guns blazing.
So, essentially, Mynx is stupid. Err... OK, I can go with that. It fits right in with "incompetent"Quote:Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Mynx is a relatively young woman who got halfway turned into... a cat. Having never really had any experience with her, I can't say for sure, but if she's anything like the Praetorian Bobcat, she's not really bright. The Freedom Phalanx helped Mynx overcome her animal instincts so she's probably less crazy than Bobcat, but still... probably not that bright. I just get the feeling she'd care less about tactics and more about helping her friend. I've only really seen her in the embarrassingly bad "girls night out" comic book where Miss Liberty takes Dominatrix and all the Vindicator girls out to a party in Pocket D and they get into a fight with Silver Mantis and a Master Illusionist. Luminary acts like a valley girl, Mynx is drawn like she's wearing droopy socks instead of shoes and the whole story is just balls. I think the only redeeming moment in that whole thing is one panel of Anti-Matter, who's drawn to look completely badass and a LOT more imposing than representation he has in the actual game
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Quote:I secretly hope that they kick him out of the Phalanx after the death of Statesman, and I hope that he takes all their shame and failure with him. Maybe even turn him into a villain, so that both heroes and villains can beat up on the guy. Or give him the Anti-Matter treatment of just stripping him of his title and officially disconnecting him from the Phalanx, but keeping him as a disgruntled TF contact.Originally Posted by dbuter
I really dislike Manticore. Even the Shining Stars arcs have him being a jerk, just because. I'd much rather have seen him die than Statesman.
For all the disagreements Claws and I have on the subject, I feel we both agree that Manticore is the one unambiguous worst offender. I can kind of forgive everyone else for the mistakes they make and the way they act, but Manticore just ups the jerkass factor so high my tolerance for it disappears altogether. -
You know, a question occurs to me. We know the Statesman "disappeared." Apparently, he's done this before. We know the Statesman is heartbroken and his judgement is clearly compromised. So... Why doesn't he act compromised in the slightest when confronting Darrin Wade at the ruins? I mean, I get that this is an attempt to give the guy some dignity before he dies, but from the way the Statesman is acting, it looks like he planned to do this.
People have told me that he was oh so sad that he didn't care if Darrin had set a trap and he was going in anyway, but... He doesn't act like it. In fact, he underplays the whole thing so much it feels like the guy is well in control of his feelings. Wade clearly expected the Statesman to be berserk, so he asks him "Are you going to kill him now?" and obviously baits him, but the Statesman doesn't even hesitate. He says "No. I'm taking you in. You'll rot in jail!" Which is perfectly reasonable. Hell, in that last scene up until the trap is sprung, he doesn't seem heartbroken at all. Possibly a bit upset, but, hell, I was upset at Darrin for running me all across the Isles chasing his stupid misshapen head.
So my question is... If the Statesman never intended to murder Darrin and is calm enough to not even seem tempted... Why did he run off? Why did he abandon his friends and allies? Wouldn't you WANT help when you're tracking a man this dangerous? I mean, yeah, Wade's "powerless" and the Statesman's supposedly unkillable, so he could have just been careless, but again - why make it such a big deal that he has abandoned the Phalanx and they have to go look for him, when for all intents and purposes, it looks like he was leading a very legitimate, very reasonable investigation?
Again - I don't want to sully the Statesman by having him turn into a bloodthirsty idiot who dies because of his impulsive rage. The way he goes down is actually quite heroic, and I admire him for it, even if his dead wife trying to tell him it's OK to die and have his power used to murder people is OK. That part I didn't like. But I admire the man for having the presence of mind to arrest the villain he's after and cross the moral event horizon.
But again - what happened off-screen to bridge the gap between Ms. Liberty treating her grandfather like a lost puppy she has to "find" and recover, like he's so stricken that he can't think for himself, yet when he does finally show up... The Statesman comes off like the most reasonable and probably most capable of his peers. And HE is the one who's supposed to be the deepest affected. Like hell he is! Of all the people who needed to mess up to allow for this story to happen, the Statesman is the only one whose mistake I can fully understand. He didn't know about Wade's ritual, because no-one but Wade did, so he didn't know to be careful. His entire career had taught him that he should be the one to take the charge, because he's the one that can't be killed. There was no way for him to expect this.
How do we reconcile the man man apparently so devastated he didn't think to bring backup with the man so comfortable with himself that he isn't even all that angry at Darrin Wade? -
Quote:I'm reminded of that one quote from that one Avengers movie trainer that has Thor asking Iron Man "Take away your technology and what are you?" to which Robert Downey Jr. replies "Oh, a genius millionaire playboy philanthropist." What I'm trying to say is that both real life and most importantly fiction have shown us time and again that rich men can still be good people. Both Batman and Iron Man seem to manage relatively well, even if they're not perfect. Hell, look at Richie Rich.Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
With as rich, smart, and skilled at combat as he is, it would be more surprising if he were a nice guy on top of it. With the combination of strengths he exhibits, it would be a rare person indeed who wasn't a complete jerk. His entire life he's been told by his yes men (and society itself) that he is better than everyone else, and he's been believing it for a while now.
I subscribe to the writing approach that characters are defined by their choices, not their circumstances. You can put two characters through the ordeal of having their parents murdered before them, and still one will leave swearing vengeance upon the world while the other will leave swearing to protect people from horrors like these. Hell, look at Noble Savage (the character). He was turned into a monster and sent to live among monsters, but he didn't become one, because the man was simply better than that. Sure, he was confused as to who had done what to him, but he was still a noble enough person to earn his name.
That's really what bothers me about him. Everything I've seen of the man, both in-game and in the comics, leads me to believe that the Freedom Phalanx have keep a villain in their ranks who they just happen to have some loose control over. Forget Malaise, the Statesman should have been yelling at whoever thought it was a good idea to put Manticore on the team in the first place.Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Manticore is proof that even good guys are susceptible to the corruption of power. It actually surprises me that he still IS a good guy. A personality like his would lead to supervillainy in just about anyone else.
What I'm saying, though, is that while Manticores flaws may be consistent with his character, they aren't exactly born of that character. Money don't make people evil. Skill doesn't make people arrogant. Fame does not make people heartless. Not intrinsically, at least. We have the millionaire playboy that's been mashed together with the darkity avenger, and those two don't really have to be the same person.
Wade is different in the sense that he doesn't HAVE separate strengths and weaknesses. His strengths and his weaknesses are the same thing. Every one of his skills has an upside and a downside. The intelligence to produce a complex plan is a benefit, but the complexity of the plan it produces is a drawback. The confidence to dream big is a benefit, but that same confidence can cause one to underestimate danger and overestimate his own abilities, and that's a drawback.
With Manticore, it's like he picked from two separate lists of perks and drawbacks, like in Fallour or Arcanum, in the sense that it feels like he was FORCED to pick drawbacks so as not to be overpowered. With Wade, his abilities are simply balanced between benefit and opportunity cost. And I can still sympathise with Wade a whole lot more even though he's an unashamed villain, just because his character flaws and his evil comes off as understandable given his personality. With Manticore, it feels like someone was worried he had too many positives and just slapped him with so many negatives the man is utterly unlikable.
*edit*
Well, that's just how I read it, anyway. I mean... Wade is supposed to be the bad guy antagonist, and yet it still ends up feeling like it's all Manticore's fault. -
I guess Darrin (yes, I finally learned the correct spelling of his name) proves to be a fool in the end, as well, though his foolishness is much easier to accept, and not nearly as bad. What I gathered from his writing was that he spent the last ten years learning how to kill the Statesman and ONLY the Statesman, and anyone else has has to deal with he has to essentially improvise. The original idea was to use the Statesman's powers to kill my character - a brutish, uncouth, uninspired plan if ever I saw one - which he chickens out on almost immediately when it's proven my character is not nearly as susceptible to being punched with lightning as he thought.
True, Wade does mention "other plans," but summoning the Aspect of Ruladak appear to have been these "other plans," because when THAT fails, Wade's response is to be irritated he didn't spend the last 10 years learning how my past self was defeated. Ignoring the lunacy of "my past self" (Jun is an earth girl, so maybe? But what if she'd been an alien? Or a time traveller?), that seems to be the extent of Darryn's forward planning for additional complications. He just assumed it would all click into place. He has the Obelisk, yes, but I surmise that and the Statesman's powers tie into his plan for Rularuu.
I say Darrin proves to be a fool because for all his planning and preparation, he didn't plan for my character. He saw her as an insignificant distraction and didn't really have any master plan to defeat her, nothing beyond "hit it till it's dead." But again, that's consistent with his character and makes for a good story, because Wade himself is still a smart, capable guy who manages to present a strong antagonist, but he does have his shortcomings, and my status as the player throws a spanner in the works. And that, really, is how you have a character fail and demonstrate flaws without coming off like an incompetent loon.
Granted, Wade isn't quite up to Nemesis level plotting, where his enemies successes are all part of his master plan, but he's close. This makes him come off lime a competent villain, and a good story needs at least one of those. What's more interesting, though, is that what flaws Wade does demonstrate are a direct result of his own strengths, rather than being tacked-on as sideways of his characters.
Let's compare to, say, Manticore. Manticore is a very skilled fighter and marksman, he is very rich, he is very smart and apparently, he's good at planning ahead. Completely separate from this, he is an *******, he as a huge ego and an inferiority complex, and he can't get along with others. It's almost as if someone took two completely different characters - one awesome and the other messed-up - then mashed them together and stomped on the pair until they melded into one character that exhibits traits from both.
Once upon a time, Praetorian Earth was said to be not a "mirror" universe where everything is opposite, but rather an "exaggerated" universe, where characters were similar, but taken to an extreme. Where Primal Earth Marcus Cole is a hero of great power and great responsibility, so Praetorian Earth Marcus Cole is a person who sees using his power as his duty in order to save his world from himself.
Wade really fits into this sort of duality. He's incredibly smart, but faith in his own intelligence leads him to overlook basic problems. His plan is perfect, but this perfection is so specific that if events deviate too much, it begins to fall apart. He has concocted for himself a situation that is so complex, to the point where even he can't fully grasp all of its complexities, just because he has grown to rely on the success of his own plans. Whether that makes his character fundamentally flawed is up for debate, but it creates a Darrin Wade whose strengths and his weaknesses are two sides of the same coin. As such, when he fails, he does not come off like an incompetent tool. And much as I dislike the guy for being a weasel... That's a very good way to have someone fail.
*edit*
Although whoever thought it was funny to put in an Aspect of Rularuu who can Total Focus me for more than my combined total hit points AND has so much accuracy - I hate your guts. It's not funny. It's annoying as hell. -
Quote:Fixed. Did not proof-read this before posting, clearly.Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
o rly?
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OK, last time when I started this thread, I hadn't actually run SSA5. My character wasn't high-level enough. I've only run the first mission so far, but there was so much both right and wrong with that mission I was compelled to write about it.
The wrong: Everyone EXCEPT Back Alley Brawler.
You know how I agreed BABs was the only one who hadn't made a fool of himself? Well, I thought that was because he just didn't have a role in these things. Turns out he does... And he's awesome! I'll talk about why in a minute, but for now, let's focus on everyone else.
I originally felt that Ms. Liberty was coming across as a competent, capable character just because she seemed to be handling the death of her mother like an adult, but no. She's back to being whiny kid in this. But you know what? Fine, I can deal with this. Her mom died, she's allowed to be irrational. But why the Funk and Wagnall are Mynx and Valkyrie acting like idiots? I could see them just trying to be faithful to Liberty, but you'd think they'd be a bit more rational.
No. They're chastising BABs for wanting to lead a covert operation on Arachnos soil. " Yeah! You think just 'cause you were one of the Regulators that you can tell us what to do?!" says Mynx, proving herself to be a confrontational, impulsive ******* who seems to constantly want to pick fights for no reason. No, BABs thinks he can tell you what to do because he's the only sane man... Woman or child left on Earth, apparently. And you should listen to him, because he's right! Who the hell did YOU lose, kitty, to turn you into an idiot?
And Valkyrie's line, while less embarrassing, is also silly. "You can't expect Ms. Liberty to stay out of such a personal matter!" Yes, he can! Ever heard of conflict of interests? You don't send the woman whose mother just got murdered to track down the killer exactly BECAUSE her judgement is impaired, both in an emotional and in a rational sense. By the evidence of her actions, Liberty SHOULD stay out of such a personal matter exactly BECAUSE it's a personal matter. And if you were any friend of hers, Valkyrie, you'd be reminding her of this, not encouraging and defending her irresponsible behaviour. Who did YOU lose, Valkyrie, to rob you of your judgement?
Again, if it were JUST Ms. Liberty acting like this, I could see it. I'd imagine the others would follow her out of a sense of loyalty and duty, but you'd think at least THEY would understand that marching on Arachnos territory would pick a fight with Arachnos and let Wade escape. I can see them wanting to back Liberty up, but they should do so begrudgingly, not wanting to take a side. It's like all of a sudden, Ms. Liberty is made of stupid, and it's infecting her companions.
The Right: Back Alley Brawler.
The man is awesome! Not only is he probably the best fighter of the bunch, but he also seems to be the only one left whose head is screwed-on straight. Manticore was supposed to be the emotionless professional, but he just comes off like a whiny emo kid. BABs, on the other hand, has his head in the game even in a moment of extreme emotional stress. He's thinking strategically, not only trying to capture Wade, but thinking ahead and trying to avoid all complications which could impede his capture. BABs knows Wade is not strong enough to fight us. As per Johnny Sonata, he doesn't have any powers. BABs knows that we're on Arachnos territory, and if we make too much noise and involve Arachnos, they'll get in the way. And surprise-surprise... Liberty's presence attracts Arachnos and they get in the way! Why is BABs the only one who can see the obvious?
Oh, but you know what really made me a BABs fanboy? When Valkyrie challenges him with her above line, his response is "I -expect- you all to keep your acts together and let <Player Name> and I handle finding Darrin Wade!" Yeah, suspect grammar, but that's exactly what I've been saying in this whole thread! You are professionals. You are heroes. People's lives depend on you. Yes, you are EXPECTED to act like professionals and like heroes and know what the hugs and kisses you're doing! Thank you, BABs, for saying it with me!
The Right: Other stuff.
BABs isn't the only thing right with the mission, though. I really liked how the conversation with Wade is handled. That was an EXCELLENT way to make my character come off competent. Wade starts talking, and I'm thinking "Oh, great, here we go again!" but no. He says one sentence, my character instantly spots he's an illusion and stops listening. No way! Do you have any idea how many times I've wanted to just ignore all the many sanctimonious bastards who wanted to give me a Hanibal Lecture just to turn around and attack me anyway? Not only does this prove confidence - my character can spot an illusion damn near instantly - but it's also a very, very cool moment. AND Wade didn't come off dumber for it. He left a whole bunch of traps on the way, and the illusion was just one. The man is hedging his bets. If the illusion slows me, it slows me. If it doesn't, well... It was worth a try. Brilliant writing there. LOVE it!
Also, the fight with Mako is just priceless. Once again, though, we see villains acting like villains and being competent... Or as competent as they've ever been, anyway - this is Make, after all - and heroes are still dribbling with the idiot ball. Or is that dribbling ON the idiot ball?
Anyway, the fight with Mako is cool because it's a pretty high-profile encounter. Sure, it's not all four Patrons and Recluse, that would have been... Bad... It's just Mako and the red-headed stepchildren of all the Patrons, but then it's BABs, Liberty and two recently-hatched ducklings, to quote Yahtzee, on our side, so it ought to be an even match. Well, not really - we kicked their *****, but it WAS a pretty cool fight. Mako's being Mako, and I love his writing for it, though I can't tell what anyone else acted like. As soon as the fight started, all 9 characters tossed up two simultaneous speech bubbles, and that's beyond even Data's capacity to read before those faded WHILE FIGHTING.
What's amusing is Mako caved like a sissy. I hit him with Rib Cracker, Shin Breaker and Smashing Uppercut and BABs then rushed in and slammed him with his own Knockout Blow, so the poor fish man didn't last long. At the end, it was five-on-one against Silver Mantis. Yeah, that Unstoppable won't save you now! Hah! It was a cool fight with cool characters, and one where the ******* in Distress suffering heroes actually acted with some competence. Just goes to show that a good combat system trumps bad writing, I guess.
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This was a mixed bag of good and bad, and it's just the first mission, but I gotta' tell ya: BABs is awesome. Forget the Statesman and Liberty. Hell, forget Blue Steel. I want to see more of BABs now! -
Quote:Hah! Well, if this happened, I wouldn't exactly be opposed to it, but like with the Phalanx, I'd like to leave Arachnos and the Patrons at least a little dignity just so they constitute effective threats and so we don't lower the bar too much. They're some of the game's "biggest," and I'd rather keep them as rivals (or allies) than as peons, if that makes sense.Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I want one of them (chosen at random maybe) to seek you out as their patron. They get access to a small sample of your powers, and get to run errands for you.
Make it so!
I wouldn't object to having more recurring characters like Dean McArthur, though, who seek to be our lackeys and sample our powers. You could have, say, a weasely suck-up villain try to suck up to my villain as a contact, helping me in exchange for protection. Secretly, he's trying to duplicate my powers, culminating in a mission where he shows up with an Architect copy of my powers - a lot like a Dopelganger, but without duplicating appearance - and is mercilessly beaten down for his arrogance. Then we get a choice of whether to spare him because we respect the ambition or kill him because he's an idiot. In one case he leaves town, in the other he's dead, and in both cases the contact's gone after the arc.
I'd play that. Hell, I almost wanted to keep my Skull lackey from that one Dr. Graves mission.
Back to the Patrons, I really don't feel we need to be put over them any more than we already are in their arcs. Aside from the insulting cowardice we're supposed to show towards Arbiter Daos, the Patron arcs are actually some of the best put together in the game, especially from the perspective of putting player characters over. They just take a bit of a leap of faith to get through the part where you're a lackey.
Each Patron's four arcs typically follow this pattern:
Arc 1: You're a lackey serving under the Patron.
Arc 2: You challenge and defeat your patron, becoming his or her equal.
Arc 3: You're effectively one of the Patrons, serving Arachnos alongside the others.
Arc 4: You challenge Arachnos itself and win, becoming an equal of Lord Recluse himself.
There really isn't much more that can be done to put the player over without being self-aggrandising and petty, and it's done in a way that promotes the player's power, authority and coolness without having to dismantle the signature characters the player is allowed to raise above. We put them in their place, yes, but even after we leave, these people are still strong, authoritative, confident villains, just no longer THE strongest, most authoritative, most confident ones. And it's not because they lost status, but rather because we gained status. If the SSAs were drawn up like that, I'd have been a much happier man.
Basically, if we go through the Patrongs arcs all the way, we're already well above their level, so there's no reason to worry about putting us over any more than that. This does, however, mean that we can involve the Patrons themselves a lot more as more regular enemies, now that their appearances no longer need to be budgeted and no longer need to carry enormous weight. We've seen the Patrons fail once, so we can involve them in storylines and have them fail again without them losing too much status if they're handled properly.