Premonitions

The only way to address the "complete situation" is to eliminate pre-reqs altogether. Which seems to be both extremely unlikely and a bad idea.
Yes, that is the point
I, even as such a person, don't see this as being a big problem.
Right now people who want just boxing or kick have no obstacles to what they want, while people who want tough or weave have boxing and kick.
My idea would shift around who get's the problem, certainly a "problem" but I don't think it would be as big a problem as Forcing them to take an attack to take a Defensive toggle. I suppose it's a cost assessment thing.

Is the inconvenience to people who want kick great enough that they'd actually feel it in this proposal?

Is the benefit gained by giving this to people who want Tough enough that it merits the inconvenience to the Kick-wanting people.

This falls back into the "eliminate prerequisites" idea.

Plus, you know, demons & Zombies

1: I see this as a flaw in the game design, and newer content allows me to do it further, which is a very good thing
2: Ouroboros is a thing.
Yesss you should have known I was one of those EEEVIL people who wants somethign you don't want.

he's a blaster, this is already kind of true.

I'll be sure to tell most Golden Age heroes, Batman, Moon Knight and others that they don't belong in a super-hero game. Being a super hero isn't just about a childish power fantasy.
Edi: no, What I'm arguing for is conceptual flexibiity and the ability to add melee capabilities into a character who might not have them. please read the rest of my post before being.. well. Sam.
Because Fighting is one pool while you just told me to take three? doing this does not in any way horribly affect my build or effectiveness.

Actually the concept is "Thunder" which in the interest of being unique I've applied as both the Loud booming sound of Thunder(and the roaring of the beast mixed in) and the actual lightning. He's, mostly a blapper but I don't completely ignore the sonic attacks either. So unless they create a sonic blast Pool power, I'm out of luck.

Really I'm trying to play a mostly Melee Focused blaster with some extra attacks.

I'm not asking for anything, I've made it, it works, there's no real problem. Except your attitude.
Further, if they created a "Transforming" AT I probably wouldn't use it simply because I've never been Unsatisfied with my character' capabilities. What I have right now works just fine ofr my needs and what I'll have when i24 drops will be even better.

This goes back to my "one trick" argument. Having one sonic attack doesn't cover the idea. It might as well be a craftable temp power. Having my Current repertoire of Howl, Shockwave, Scream,Screech, Dreadful Wail, and Shout means my character doesn't have "That one Roar" but has "Thunder Roaring powers"

I like how I have to do all this pretending that ice is fire and what not but you can't pretend that my "natural" character can't fight Malta or similar characters. And that somehow this i a problem with me
Thank you for telling me what I want feel free to also tell me what I think.

Wouldn't making new ATs not be "breaking AT constraints" at all? Just adding new limitations. Any combination of primary and Secondary they can create would have it's own limitations and pools are a great way to supplement that.

I didn't say that. I said if the pre req order was shifted only slightly, people who wanted tough would be able to take tough first, and people who wanted boxing could take it first. Kick would take Tough's previous spot, and Tough would take kick's current spot. If either party wanted to go further into the set, they'd have to take further powers.

1: That's your concept, not everyone else's
2: fighting and fitness is kind of a multifaceted thing, For example. Being able to run fast doesn't mean you can punch fast. And this is just within the realm of reality. This doesn't involve the specifics of someone's magic rocks or special super sci-fi weapons or what have you, which may be doing all the "heavy lifting" in certain areas whilst the character performs other things to compensate or perform.

The fact that the attack is underpowered isn't really a negative to it being an attack so much as it is a reason to buff it.

I think it needs to be tough or weave(considering a "Sixth power" is off the table) because otherwise we're eliminating a power that serves an important function for quite a few concepts to better serve the desires of other concepts when simply switching things around a bit balances things out between the "I only want the defenses" crowd, the "I want the melee attacks" crowd and the "I'm good with the set as a whole" crowd.
These are only "common" for a given interpretation of the idea, namely that every single character in the game is at the same peak of physical fitness, mental state, and skill level. Some people put certain weakness into their character concept. In fact the archetypes and power mechanics pretty much codify that, a Claws/Super reflexes Scrapper hits hard(scrapper damage), and is nimble(Defense) but can't take a hit well(the times Defense fails)
Before you start about base run speed being equal and whatnot, I can easily work a concept wherein a character is "cheating" to keep up but inherently is not as fast as others of the same archetype and powerset.

I think Super Speed and Teleportation can be made into a full melee combat set fairly easily, Super Leaping and Flight maybe not so much, unless we start interpreting things very loosely, I.e. Flight being part of a general "Wire-fu" set that includes gliding and such.

Physical Fitness
Kicking(and also punching!)
"Sorcery" as a concept could have easily have been pretty much any kind of set.
Anything can be made into a full set by the proper minds.

Now this is just straight out false.
And? One punch does not a fighter make. Brawl isn't really a "Fighting" power so much as a "This character has hands/a foot/the butt of their weapon" power. Further, Having Boxing+Brawl in and of itself means your character is capable of a one-two punch combo now. Instead of slapping up agaisnt an enemy with whatever limb is available, they are now... well... boxing. Boxing Poorly, most assuredly, but boxing nonetheless


They allow you to help others by delivering mostly invisible buffs that can be interpreted any sort of way. An ability a character may or may not have had before.

Fighting allows a character to engage in melee combat where they might not have before.

More accurately, they enable the concept of "having attacks and/or defenses that aren't your primary"
Again, Brawl is the "has hands" power not the "Is a skilled melee combatant" power you seem to think it is. Being able(if you so choose) to string together a melee attack chain elevates a character from "has hands" to "Is good at melee combat(to whatever degree)" because it then allows a character to engage in melee combat in a fashion similar to an actual melee focused character. Whether the numbers are, will be, or should be the same is irrelevant. The point is I can go into melee range and function versus going into melee range doing nothing, and then dying.

If a character is said to be skilled in melee combat, they should be able to engage in melee combat.If a character is said to be skilled at ranged combat, they should be able to engage in ranged combat. If they are said to have a bit of both, they should be able to do both equally and if they are said to do one okay and another one amazingly good, they should do one just okay and another amazingly good.

The same is true of all types of powers. Having one trick in something isn't "being good at the thing that trick represents" it's having one trick. Let's say we have a power that gives two ranged blast powers and some other tricks. Taking one of those range blast powers doesn't really make you "proficient" or even "kinda good" with, say, a shuriken. One power isn't skilled, two is closer, four is decent, and nine is expertise.

Fighting has two(soon to be three) distinct melee attack powers, not a full chain, but close enough that brawl or a travel-power attack can form a full chain and thus allow a character who lacks melee attacks to explore the "is capable in melee combat" concept.

This sort of thing isn't like saying your ice controller can create an ice swan. It's a thing that can be put to the test in-game. If you character concept dictates that they know karate, Shoot trick arrows, and use two pistols expertly, those are all things that your character should be able to display in some fashion.(So long as there are no balance issues)

This doesn't really negate having a more broadly applicable representation of the idea. What you're saying is "if you want to punch, just roll a scrapper/brute/tanker/stalker!"

But I don't think this mindset is conducive to creative freedom. By this logic, Ancillaries are inherently pointless.

"If you want an armor power, roll a melee class, if you want a blast power, roll a ranged character."
"and if I want to punch and kick on a ranged character?"
"tough luck"

The fact that the powers do not serve your needs specifically are not an inherent flaw in the powers themselves.

Ehhh, not really? There are quite a few weapons-based disciplines that start with and only teach the use of the weapon, I.E. They focus on fighting with the weapon and don't teach much about grappling or unarmed striking.You can have an expert swordsman who isn't all that great at hand-to-hand.

I don't think I've explored shield defense enough to really comment here but the same logic applies re: other ATs and character concepts using the powers to explore the concept

I swear to god I have such a headache right now.
Even if I give the idea that every single hero already has personal defenses and melee attacks any weight, the "slightly bigger" aspect would still be the most important thing here.

If you want to add the idea that your character either by choice or by chance, is above the standard in this area, taking away Fighting's ability to actually fight would eliminate this function
By you. A Controller without the fighting pool cannot accomplish even a smidgen of what a Martial arts or Street Justice character can. Do they need to be direct equals? Of course not, but if we're going to claim that all characters are inherently melee combatants, they should have the potential to engage in actual melee combat. Brawl, to me isn't "good at brawling" it's"can't do anything else, might as well flail wildly" it's even described as a last-ditch effort.
Not everyone is trying to be Goku. I very specifically want to be "moderately good" at a thing my archetype isn't supposed to do anyway while being amazing at something else. If I wanted to do the stupid "Kung-fu makes you a god" thing, I'd roll a Scrapper. If I want to be an Amazing archer who also isn't a glass-jawed limp-wristed pansy I'll put some punches, kicks, and defenses into his repertoire. It makes my character more versatile and powerful, conceptually, since now he is both amazingly talented with his bow and also not a guaranteed goner when you snap it in half and throw it in the lake.
I don't think they are more, anything, just different.

Okay let's explore the idea that "Punching and Kicking are basic attacks" nothing wrong with that. Except It's very likely that your character doesn't have these basic attacks. Ignoring Martial Arts and Street Justice for a second, An energy melee or dark melee character has no real means of regularly engaging in basic combat.

They can only string together super-powered attacks. Ranged Characters can't use "basic attacks" at all(barring the new Martial Combat and that doesn't help characters who still need a secondary that isn't MC for their concept)
I'll use my main.
Meet Volt Tiger:

He is a Magic Origin, Sonic Attack/Electric Manipulation Blaster.

He is a Tokusatsu (Mostly Kamen Rider but I took bits from lots of others)Inspired Blapper. Now, when I say "blapper" I'm sure you assume I use Boxing and Kick in his normal attack chain, and that is my point, but I don't, and it's not.

There's a whole "Pseudo Heisei"/Super-1 Thing going on between his Primary and Secondary.

His Story is Thus:
Tyson Law is a man with an angry spirit. For whatever reason he has always had a violent streak. A healthy upbringing and a good heart have guided him towards a heroic lifestyle, but He has a constant fear of what he could become. His brother's cool head,and his Heroic nature kept him in line and gave him hope.

Before, during, and after the Rikti war he operated as a street level urban vigilante in the mold of Casey Jones. Wearing a simple mask and calling himself Steel Tyger, he beat petty thugs senseless every day. Even after his brother's death at the hands of a mysterious plot-device illness, he carried on as a unsung hero of Galaxy City.........

During the Shivan Invasion, Tyson encountered an old man. While fighting together he revealed himself as the legendary hero Volt Tiger, and passed on his mystical Raiju Talisman before being destroyed in a final strike against the Shivans.

Now gifted with the ability to transform into the Volt Tiger and use the Thunderous Roar of a mighty and feral god-like beast, he grapples daily with both his own violent nature and the constant influence of the Raiju itself. In order to hold the beast at bay, lest it take control of him, or worse, escape into our world, he uses his power sparingly, not unleashing a thunderstorm on a simple bank robber. By continuing to go out as Steel Tyger when necessary, and fight as his normal self, he keeps his brother's memory alive and retains his focus.

And now for his concept and How his power relate:

As I said, Volt tiger is a Henshin Hero. Common aspects of these types of characters are that they are, if not completely powerless when untransformed, significantly weaker. The other is that they will often fight lower level minion type enemies untransformed until it is necessary to change to take on an escalated threat.

Tyson Law is a veteran hero and has melee combat capabilities, but he was never at the "Super Kung Fu" level of, say a Martial Arts Scrapper, it's why he was basically an unknown un-registered crazy person for so long.

By comparison, Volt Tiger has the destructive power of a Thunder Storm at his finger tips. He is a human explosion(or maybe a Kalishsplosion)

I can't really play this character with his Primary and Secondary while in his human form, otherwise what's the point of all the posing and catchphrases and random color-coded explosions and costumes and stock footage if he's exactly the same in both forms? It goes against his very concept. I could just not play the game and pretend he's busting purse snatchers while I'm logged out, I suppose. But pretending to pretend to be a superhero sounds slightly more ridiculous and sad than everything I've typed thus far.

Crafting within his overall build a "Sub build" made up of fighting pool powers allows me to operate in his "normal" form up until I see a boss or some such at which point he can transform and begin to fight in earnest.
Being able to fight "unpowered" with attacks that aren't his "super powers" communicates the "veteran street brawling vigilante" aspect of his background. This is even more true if I take care to direct him towards the sort of content that fits him in this state, crime.

It also plays on the "eternally tempted to destroy" thing. Both in the character's ear and in my own mind is the constant reminder, whenever the Kick, Boxing,Cross Punch,and Brawl+a few temp powers combo seems unfit to a task "Just click that macro and we can just blast our way through this" pops up. The experience brings me into the nature of the character in a way few things have. It's why he has become my main as of late.

This just feels like trying to crack an egg with a time machine. It's a very cool idea,just seems like the primary "issue" here of people needing to take the offensive powers to take a defensive power would be best served by simply putting Tough as a tier one power. It(Tempered Readiness) could be worked in as an "alternate" fighting synch for the defensive powers(possibly adding something to rest and sprint much the same way Boxing,Kick,and Crosscut buff Brawl)I definitely agree that boxing and kick can't go,though.
I have so much to say in response to this but I need to wait a few hours

While there are probably design reasons for this decision, I like to think that much in the way you have to have been an established villain or hero(I.e. level 20 or higher) to "turn" you'd have to have been a rogue or vigilante for a while before people would consider you "grey" enough for their "questionable" work.

I think bio armor needs some customization options in general so maybe just go in that direction for the "Big glove armor"

The effects of the powers themselves would be meaningful, less so the ability to slot enhancements(not that that's not important). If someone wanted to stack stuns or leverage knock back, they'd pick one or the other. The fact that they aren't that different is mostly why they need to be adjusted, which the "Synergy" thing is supposed to address.

Some people find use out of it, you don't, that's different than in inherent flaw in the way something works.

I loves me some gimmicks but It kind of needs to be said that lots of sets don't have gimmick and other sets don't have "gimmicks" that would be built up by any kind of attack anyway(DP,BR,Time, Nature Affinity,) The fact that you keep trying to argue that the "Melee attacks and defenses" powerset be rejiggered to be "Mostly defenses and I guess maybe a melee attack because Sam values those defenses more" is just.. off. It's Like requesting Super Speed Have actual super speed taken out just so you can have more hasten

So, basically some set combinations and ATs will get greater benefit out of these powers than others. Big deal?

This isn't a good argument for shifting around the power order or combining Boxing and Kick so much as it's an argument to make Boxing and Kick better, which they are doing. Whether the changes are enough to improve them remains to be seen.

Edit: Just because YOU don't like Boxing and Kick don't make them Always "double costs". They where, maybe, less than great melee attacks, somewhere close to a tier 1 and not as good as the attacks you might find in a melee primary(or secondary) which is kind of the point of the fighting pool. Tough and Weave aren't as good as having an actual defense or Resist primary to choose from either.

Unless they beat them, say, before they became as much of a threat as they are now.
Maybe this even encouraged them(The Battalion) to become stronger. alterntively. The Battalion of The Rikti Dimension might have been pushovers.

I wouldn't say that's true for all or even most Silver Age styles.

I liked the Patent Leather top that said I'm swapping it out for the new zip-up leather bodysuit top and have been replacing it with Defense for a while now..... XD

The conversation had with Noble savage basically ended with him concluding on making parts like those and that was before the most recent player summit.