Oedipus_Tex
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You should be able to search the forums for a decent Fire/Kin build. Maybe Plant/Kin too. I expect to see a series of posts coming up soon about it now that people are adjusting builds for alpha slots, so you may want to hang on for that. I'm guessing most Fire/Kins are going to Alpha for Recharge (they don't need the Damage or Defense), which may have some interesting results on builds.
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Quote:Quoting myself, because this is something I want to highlight. A lot of people would look at these damage numbers and conclude Energy Torrent does much better damage than Terrify. It does. But it depends on how you look at it.
Energy Torrent (135 x 2 = 270) >>
Terrify (61.3 x2 = ~122)
Energy Torrent can only hit 10 enemies. Terrify can hit 16. If we apply the rules some advocate we must always use for procs, Energy Torrent's actual damage fired into a crowd of 16 should actually be:
270 x ( 10/16 ) = 168
That's still better than Terrify, but not nearly as much as it appeared previously. But no one would ever count this against Energy Torrent's damage, or insist we always divide its damage by the percentage of targets it can't hit in order to compare it to other powers. Should we? Probably more often than we do.
But the flipside is true for procs. Many folks want to multiply the proc's damage by its activation chance to determine its "average" damage. That result of that calculation isn't completely irrelevant. However, it is also not the whole picture, nor can it be directly compared to static sources of damage without recognizing that one represents a range and the other fixed number. -
Quote:It does work that way on Corruptors. I didn't know it worked this way on Masterminds. That's a pretty outrageously overpowered bug. Which I will be sure to take full advantage of if I ever decide to play Masterminds. But I think we can assume Controllers will never be lucky enough to receive the set with that bug intact.Originally Posted by Max_zero
There is a reason why (as much as I love it) theorycraft has it limits. If you played with Caltrops you would know it can take PBAOE sets.
This scenario sounds articificial to me. Mainly because if the low damage characters we were talking about HAD an AoE to cast that would do sufficient damage to kill all of the remaining enemies in one shot, they would do it. But they don't. Because they are low damage characters who don't have full AoE attack chains. So they revert to single target attacks. What mechanic does a single target attack resemble?Quote:The problem with taking a proc at full value is that it won't always do it's full value.
So you are AOEing down a pack and there are half a dozen enemies left who are low on health and your next AoE will kill them. Say you get lucky and you get a few procs on previous AOE and kill half of them. So now you have 3 low health enemies left. You still have to cast you AoE (that you would of cast anyway without the procs) so what did the procs proccing actually gain you? A few enemies dead a second earlier then they would of normally been?
Procs cast over a large number of enemies earlier in the fight.
When we talk about single target attacks, we don't fret about the enemies we are not attacking. Nor do we panic about pets picking their targets at random. But that's exactly what the AoE did earlier in the fight. Given the number of enemies available, we have some assurance that a few of them get pegged. Why are we so worried about the ones who didn't? Do all single target and pet attacks need to be evaluated against the targets they did not attack? While a high damage character with a full attack chain of AoEs may be able to ignore this, its far harder for a character with low damage and long interuptions between AoE cycles. Such is the case for the Mind/Cold character posted, with 8 second and 11 second recharges on each AoE damage power, one of them a cone that only hits 10 enemies max.
Killing enemies earlier is the entire point. You are always better off killing enemies faster. How much better off depends on the overall build. Especially because most cone attacks have a limit of 10 targets. And most low damage characters have single target chains that far outdamage their AoEs in terms of uptime, cycleability, and for some of them, endurance.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. How is it possible that adding a base 83% chance to do 72 damage per enemy is not an increase in DPA? Literally speaking, 83% of mobs took 72 damage they would not have taken otherwise and the animation time has not changed. That is the definition of an increase in DPA using any method of calculation.Quote:Strangely enough damage procs on single targets tend to minimize this possible shortfall since on single targets good proccing can actually 'save you' casting additional powers (DPA). Basically procs in AoE do up DPS but often don't up DPA because it the proc damage is sometimes ineffective. Procs in single target attacks tend to up both DPA and DPS.
Assuming a chain (and ignoring -Resistance to make the math easy) and reverting to the averaging method I don't completely trust:
Total Domination (Containment) >>
Sleet (72 *.83 = ~60)* >>
Energy Torrent (135 x 2 = 270) >>
Terrify (61.3 x2 = ~122)
TOTAL = 452
DAMAGE INCREASE = ~13% on the opening attack chain
Or during times when Total Dom isn't up:
Sleet (72 *.83 = ~60)* >>
Energy Torrent (135) >>
Terrify (~61)
TOTAL = 256
DAMAGE INCREASE = ~23% on the opening attack chain
The only way DPA could not have increase in either situation is if Sleet was determined to not worth being part of the chain. But we'll be casting Sleet whether its procced or not. DPA can only increase.
*NOTE: Damage estimates from procced Sleet underestimate damage by evaluating only enemies hit by nothing or excatly 1 proc. Enemies hit by 2, 3, or more procs are not included in the estimate. -
I did a quick rebuild for you. Unfortunately I've got to run out the door right now so I don't have time to explain all of my suggested changes. The build I'm presenting assumes you consider the Spiritual Alpha Slot for more Recharge. I did suggest changing your APP from Psi to Primal so you can Power Boost your shields and Flash (for Containment), and use Energy Torrent to knock over Feared enemies without them being able to shoot back as much (enemies who fall over due to an attack lose the ability to retaliate like they normally can). This build is moderately expensive. If you decide to go with a different Alpha Slot you can adjust accordingly--the +Defense one in particular could let you change some slots over to a Recharge focus (purples in particular) and still stay soft capped.
Note that I don't like having to 6 slot Boxing for this build. If you can find a way to pick up both Defense and Recharge in one power it would be a good idea to swap this part out.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Code Monk: Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Force Field
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Primal Forces Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blind -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(7), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(7), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(9), HO:Nucle(9), Dmg-I(11)
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 2: Spectral Wounds -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 4: Deflection Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(31)
Level 6: Deceive -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(11), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(13), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(13), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(15), CoPers-Conf%(15)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 10: Insulation Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(17), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(39)
Level 12: Group Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(A), Zephyr-ResKB(17)
Level 16: Boxing -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(19), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(36), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(36), Stpfy-KB%(48), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(50)
Level 18: Phantom Army -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(21), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(21), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), S'bndAl-Build%(23), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 20: Dispersion Bubble -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(25), RedFtn-EndRdx(25), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(27), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(27), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(39), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 24: Recall Friend -- Zephyr-ResKB(A)
Level 26: Spectral Terror -- Acc-I(A)
Level 28: Flash -- UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(A), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(29), UbrkCons-Hold(40), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(43), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 30: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), Aegis-ResDam(40)
Level 32: Phantasm -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(33), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(34), ExRmnt-+Res(Pets)(34)
Level 35: Repulsion Bomb -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(36), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), Posi-Dam%(37)
Level 38: Weave -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(39), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), RedFtn-EndRdx(48), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(48), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(50)
Level 41: Power Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(42), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Energy Torrent -- Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(45), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rng(45), Posi-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Temp Invulnerability -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), P'Shift-EndMod(3), P'Shift-End%(3)
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Set Bonus Totals:- 14% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 14% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 14% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 14% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 14% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 14% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 14% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 14% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 3% Defense(Smashing)
- 3% Defense(Lethal)
- 3% Defense(Fire)
- 3% Defense(Cold)
- 14.25% Defense(Energy)
- 14.25% Defense(Negative)
- 3% Defense(Psionic)
- 3% Defense(Melee)
- 21.75% Defense(Ranged)
- 3% Defense(AoE)
- 4.5% Max End
- 33% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 3% Enhancement(Stun)
- 4% Enhancement(Confused)
- 106.25% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 5% FlySpeed
- 76.3 HP (7.503%) HitPoints
- 5% JumpHeight
- 5% JumpSpeed
- Knockback (Mag -8)
- Knockup (Mag -8)
- MezResist(Confused) 5%
- MezResist(Held) 5%
- MezResist(Immobilize) 14.9%
- MezResist(Sleep) 5%
- MezResist(Stun) 5%
- MezResist(Terrorized) 5%
- 17.5% (0.292 End/sec) Recovery
- 40% (1.698 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 10% Resistance(Smashing)
- 10% Resistance(Lethal)
- 18.19% Resistance(Fire)
- 18.19% Resistance(Cold)
- 10% Resistance(Energy)
- 10% Resistance(Negative)
- 10% Resistance(Toxic)
- 10% Resistance(Psionic)
- 5% RunSpeed
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RE: DPS v DPA. This is a very complicated topic and I hope I'm able to address it in a satisfactory manner. I'm not sure I entirely grasp all of the arguments put out there, but I'm pretty sure of one thing; all of us are right in one way and wrong in another, because I don't think we're all talking about the same things.
The first part I'll address is the "stream" model of damage. This model assumes that for any power, you can evaluate its damage as if it were a steady stream from you to an enemy. When the stream model is applied to Damage Per Activation (DPA), the assumption is "the power does X damage in a steady stream, at the cost of animation time Y." When the stream model is applied to Damage Per Recharge (DPR), the assumption is "the power does X damage in a steady stream, and can be used every Y seconds."
Both are relevant. Both are also abstractions. That's because damage almost never actually arrives in a steady stream. It arrives in defined, discrete amounts. And it turns out that more of it, up front and concentrated, is better than across time. DPA and DPR mask this. A power that animates in 1 second and does 100 points of damage is treated the same as a power that animates in 2 seconds and does 200 points of damage, just because both have a DPA of 100. (1/100 = 2/200 = 100). What we don't know is whether the first attack is actually a damage-over-time and the second front-loaded for damage so that it actually makes impact the instant the power is cast. Two powers, same DPA or DPR, different actual meanings.
Then we get to procs, and things really hit the fan.
You see, neither DPA or DPR handle chance very well. Both assume that damage flows as a constant, steady stream, like a perfectly defined flow of -HP that terminates at the conclusion of either animation time (with DPA) or recharge (with DPR).
When chance gets involved, most people handle it by multiplying damage by the proc's chances to fire. For example, it's assumed that if a proc has a 20% chance to fire and does 72 damage, that you can multiply 0.20 * 72 to get 14.4 as the "average" amount of damage added. Then its assumed you can look at how often the power is fired (mostly a feature of DPR but in terms of attack chains DPA as well) and how often the proc goes off in that time frame to get how much damage is added.
With Freezing Rain, for example, it's assumed that each proc adds 14.4 damage twice every 30 seconds (assuming that's how fast the power recharges for this character--again a function of DPR as presented here). Freezing Rain procs twice, so final damage added is thus assumed to be 14.4* 2 = 28.8. This is then divided by the Recharge time of 30 to get the assumed added DPR. We thus conclude the proc is adding just 28.8/30 = .96 damage per second, as a steady stream.
The problem with this? The odds of hitting any enemy for 28.8 damage with the proc are exactly 0%. That's because that's not what the proc actually does! It is a 20% chance for 72 damage, not a steady stream of 28.8 hit points. The damage is actually a range not a discreet value. And since we're applying this range to a target that only has a set number of hit points, it means there won't be enough rerolls for the system to normalize if the proc fires and kills the target before it "should" have died. Other times, the enemy will survive longer. What will never happen will be for the enemy to survive or die an "average" number of times.
The literal, logical, answer to "how much damage does slotting a proc in a power that is almost always active do?" is very straight forward but difficult to fully grasp. The damage is equal to a 20% chance for a little more damage than an Uncontained Controller hold, at no cost of extra DPR or DPA. That damage is instantaneous at the moment the proc fires, not delivered as a steady stream. And, assuming you can keep enough enemies in the area of effect, a significant number of times it should result in enemies who "should" still be alive according to standard DPA and DPR models dropping dead in front of you.
The short of it is, you cannot pretend a range of DPA or DPR is the same thing as a discrete amount of DPA or DPR and compare them directly. They are related, but they are NOT the same. The exception is when fighting enemies for such a long period of time that the chances normalize--Rikti pylon soloing for example.
A final note is that DPR is absolutely irrelevant on the first cast of a power. DPR is defined by recharge, so we can't count it against a power that isn't actually recharging! DPR is relevant in the long run though, as in Max's example of Caltrops. The fact that Caltrops can be layered does add to its overall damage potentional. It gets tricky though because the first wave of procs from Caltrops (2 procs max) is weaker than the first wave of procs from Freezing Rain (4 procs max), and Caltrops only matches Freezing Rain as time progresses. However, Freezing Rain already had a chance to deliver more up-front burst damage. But the point here really should be, no matter what the DPR of Freezing Rain is, if the power is already recharged when the battle starts, you can't look at the fact that it will take 30 or 18 or however many seconds to recharge after it's cast, and must address the fact that the proc damage dealt is either immediate or comes within 10 seconds. I sense this is the major source of disconnect among posters.
I hope that was well explained. Please understand I am not trying to throw the entire DPA and DPR models under the rug. They have their uses. But they are also often misapplied, as they are in this case when folks talk about the "average" damage they deal. "Average damage" is notoriously un-average once examined on an actual event scale.
[EDIT: Various edits to clarify meaning] -
Quote:
For Freezing Rain, with the high slot requirements in Storm/Cold has a low priority for damage procs. 2 chances to proc every 30 seconds isn't very good. If you pump the recharge you run into major slot crunch.
I still don't understand the frame of reference you are speaking in. The fact is, without a build in front of us, it's impossible to make blanket statements about what the optimal slotting of a power is. I wouldn't think anyone should ever slot Freezing Rain with 5 pieces from Positron's Blast, but I have seen that exact slotting on various builds because it accomplished something for that build. That is exactly why the suggestion of 4-slotting procs as a possibility came up--to quote myself, it is valuable "especially on some low damage Controllers and Defenders."
Secondly, Freezing Rain is not "2 chances to proc every 30 seconds." It's 2 chances to proc every time you cast the power, however far apart that is. On the Mind/Cold build I posted previously, this would be about twice every 18 seconds once I get my full Spiritual alpha slot built up, assuming I recast the power the instant it recharges. There isn't a "major slot crunch" precisely because the build and the alpha slot boost the recharge to the point that procs become optimal slotting for Freezing Rain within the context of this build. The other option is even more Recharge, which is optimal on builds that do a lot of AV fighting, because Freezing Rain/Sleet can stack on itself.
I concede on Caltrops. I didn't realize it was so easy to stack on itself. If I had a choice between Caltrops and Freezing Rain, I'd pick Caltrops to slot for procs first [EDIT: Assuming it was reasonable for me to be putting the power out there on a regular basis.] However, since no one ever has to make this choice, it doesn't change a lot RE: Sleet slotting in the real world. It just removes Caltrops as an equal proccing option for comparison purposes. Earthquake and Arctic Air are still on the table; if we argue that it is never/rarely in our interest to proc Sleet due to low returns on damage, we need to apply the same argument to those powers. Specifically, what started this argument were your statements about the low returns on damage based on average chances.Quote:Wrong. As shown above Caltrops is actually superior (and I have and recommend procs in there on my MMs). So is Carrion Creepers as well with the Impeded Switftness proc. Lightning Storm with the Explosive Strike/Apocalypse damage proc since it bolt can hit multiple targets and it fires every 4 seconds.
As for Lightning Storm, it appears to hit 5 targets every 4 seconds, but the targets have to be within a 5ft radius of each other. Proccing it is a good idea. I missed why Lightning Storm was brought up though. It is not directly comparable to Sleet in any way except that it is a power that accepts procs. I might as well compare Sleet to Jolting Chain or Stone Cages as far as that likeness goes. -
Quote:Thanks for validating.Originally Posted by Gilia
I believe you are correct. Since pre-alpha slot it takes 110% global recharge to make Hasten perma, the extra 30% should contribute to that, making the "new" requirement 80%. With 3 level 50 recharge IOs, and considering the portion of the alpha which is affected by ED, it should be about 76%.
I realize you're probably after Power Boost, but if you were willing to let that go it seems like Ice Mastery might be a better option. Ice Storm would stack with Sleet very well, and it has an AoE cone on top of that. I think that's as much AoE damage as you can get...
A damage proc in Terrify would be nice, too. There's no obvious slot to give up though.
Yep, it's mostly Power Boost I'm after, for inobvious reasons.
Mind Controllers don't have an AoE Immobilize to set Containment with. To compensate, when solo my opening move is to Power Boost, Mass Confuse, then use Total Domination. Power Boosted Total Domination has a duration of 48 seconds. That gives me lots of time to fire my two AoEs for double damage. Other Mind Controllers can use Mass Hypnosis, but I can't, because of the damage component in Sleet. If it's going to wake up enemies I might as well make sure it counts.
On teams I alternate back and forth between Mass Confuse and Total Dom for each mob. With their recharge, one or the other is up every 35 seconds or so on a cycle. I don't worry about Containment as much as there is usually a Controller or Dominator there to do it for me. Meanwhile Power Boost ensures what hits, lasts. +4 Enemies resist about 50% of a mezz's duration, so it's not quite as much overkill as it may seem at first.
The other part of the equation though is Energy Torrent. Energy Torrent on a Controller is knockdown, and turns out to be quite nice. When it fires, it has a 60% chance to bowl an enemy over. The reason this is important is during the time Mass Confusion and Total Domination are recharging my mainline "hold" is Terrify. The way this power works, enemies get a chance to shoot back or run each time you hit them. Unless... they are on their backs. By firing Energy Torrent instead of a standard AoE, 60% of the enemies who could fire back miss their chance to do so. Then when I follow up with Fearsome Stare, another 20% fall over due to the knockdown proc in Rangnarok. This is layered with Sleet's 5% chance to knockdown per pulse, so a significant number of enemies are bowled over. -
Here's another build to examine. This is one possible future build for my Mind/Cold Controller. Now, I'm almost positive someone is going to come in and say the shields are underslotted and I can use more Recharge to get to perma-Hasten. Which are somewhat true. But what we need to keep in mind are:
1) This character will be slotting the Spiritual alpha for an eventual +30% recharge unaffected by ED, which I think will put Hasten at perma or very close to it
2) This character's main issue isn't keeping people alive, it's his rather low AoE damage due to lack of reliable AoE Containment. An extra 3-4% defense is useful but not worth it to me on a character with other issues, no pet, who can't soft cap others on his own by making the leap for the extra defense
I could also have slotted a second Recharge in Sleet, but with the Spiritual boost, it will eventually end up at ~19-17 seconds, which is good enough for what I need. What I'm desperately lacking is AoE damage.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Cold Reader Goal Build Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Mind Control
Secondary Power Set: Cold Domination
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Primal Forces Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Levitate -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(15), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39)
Level 1: Infrigidate -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Dominate -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(5), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Ice Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 6: Confuse -- CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(A), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(7), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(7), CoPers-Conf(9), CoPers-Conf%(13), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(15)
Level 8: Mass Hypnosis -- FtnHyp-Sleep/EndRdx(A), FtnHyp-Plct%(9), FtnHyp-Acc/Rchg(17), FtnHyp-Sleep/Rchg(29), FtnHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(33)
Level 10: Glacial Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17), RechRdx-I(21)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Zephyr-ResKB(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(48)
Level 16: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 18: Total Domination -- UbrkCons-Hold(A), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(19), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(19), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(23), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(25)
Level 20: Arctic Fog -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(21), RedFtn-EndRdx(23), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(25), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 22: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(40)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Ksmt-ToHit+(50), LkGmblr-Def(50)
Level 26: Terrify -- Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(27), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Ragnrk-Knock%(31)
Level 28: Benumb -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 30: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(36), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(37), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(40), RedFtn-EndRdx(43), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 32: Mass Confusion -- Mlais-Acc/Rchg(A), Mlais-EndRdx/Conf(33), Mlais-Acc/EndRdx(33), Mlais-Conf/Rng(34), Mlais-Acc/Conf/Rchg(34), RechRdx(34)
Level 35: Sleet -- LdyGrey-%Dam(A), RechRdx-I(36), Achilles-ResDeb%(37), ImpSwft-Dam%(46), ShldBrk-%Dam(48), Posi-Dam%(50)
Level 38: Heat Loss -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(39), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(40), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(43)
Level 41: Power Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 44: Energy Torrent -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dam%(45), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(45), Posi-Dmg/Rng(46)
Level 47: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Temp Invulnerability -- ResDam-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 0: Ninja Run
------------
Set Bonus Totals:- 10.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 10.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 6% Defense(Smashing)
- 6% Defense(Lethal)
- 6% Defense(Fire)
- 6% Defense(Cold)
- 22.9% Defense(Energy)
- 22.9% Defense(Negative)
- 6% Defense(Psionic)
- 6% Defense(Melee)
- 28.5% Defense(Ranged)
- 6% Defense(AoE)
- 75% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 6.5% Enhancement(Confused)
- 85% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 12% FlySpeed
- 11.4 HP (1.13%) HitPoints
- 12% JumpHeight
- 12% JumpSpeed
- Knockback (Mag -4)
- Knockup (Mag -4)
- MezResist(Immobilize) 4.4%
- 28.5% (0.48 End/sec) Recovery
- 20% (0.85 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 11.7% Resistance(Fire)
- 11.7% Resistance(Cold)
- 12% RunSpeed
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Quote:
Didn't say its not better just that its not worth it. Said this several times now. Quote:If you have slots leftover then putting damage procs in Sleet is great but it's not a priority. There are better places to put them for AoE and single target. 2 proc chances every 30 seconds (though IOs set bonuses can bring it to 15 seconds) is just not worth it.
Not worth it for who in what situation? For your Plant/Cold Controller build specifically? You need to clarify this statement because in this post and others it sounds like you're saying "it's not worth it for anyone because there is always a better place to put the slot." You also suggested that putting a damage IO in the slot is better than putting a damage proc, which is simply incorrect using either my method or the method of averaging proc damage.
In terms of procs Sleet and Freezing Rain are exactly identical* to any AoE patch power. Are you also claiming you should never put a proc in Caltrops? In Arctic Air? In Earthquake? In any standard AoE with a recharge longer than 10 seconds? That is really quite a substantial claim and not limited to Sleet or Freezing Rain in its scope. Putting a damage proc in any power that you were planning to keep up during the entire fight has exactly the same effect as slotting it in Sleet.
*Almost exactly identical. Some powers have no ToHit check. -
Quote:By slotting two damage IOs you are adding only 20 points of damage, or about 10 damage per slot expended.Originally Posted by Max_zero
You right its not the same "dealing 20% of 72 damage all the time" is better because there is less overkill and is more reliable.
A 20% chance to proc rolled twice is 36%. If you average this, you get 0.36 * 72 = 25 average damage per slot. Except that's inaccurate, because 4% of the time the proc fires twice on one enemy for double damage.
10 < 25
I don't agree with the averaging methodology for procs, but even using it you still get better average damage. I also don't know if you can call minimum 83% odds per enemy with 4 procs slotted unreliable. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Diggis
Not just him.. but all of them.
The ticks of damage from the temporary god mode powers were the same no matter what the power I used so Brawl was pretty much just as fast as anything else. And entertaining as hell.
I aggroed as many as I could and dropped Freezing Rain on them. I bet Caltrops would rip them up too.
I actually liked this mission. It does get a bit gimmicky on repeats, but it was an interesting diversion. -
It was glorious!
Thanks devs, because this new TF sets a new standard for me in terms of high level content. This TF really captures a sense of super heroics. I absolutely loved it. This is my favorite Task Force by far, and a great way to introduce the Incarnate missions. I can't wait to see what the future holds in terms of Task Force content.
5/5 stars. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Emberly
Count me among those saddened by this so-called "fix." The mission was fun as it was, and now it's just another easymode snoozefest. Reminds me of the change to the old respec trial. Heaven forbid something in game require more than drooling and facerolling to complete.
Just an IMO but if there is any mission in the game that should not ground your bones to glass, its the one undertaken by the toons people messed up and need to respec. -
That mission was a little too extreme and very obviously suffering from the same bug as some of the early Praetoria missions. I ran into it three or four times and sometimes it summoned a handful of enemies, and other times a comically huge army of Sappers that were instant death for any character who did not have good defense and/or endurance drain protection. I'm going to guess there were somewhere between 4 and 8 Sappers total. I lost count of the number of waves that showed up in the end because everytime it felt like, surely, that's the end, another group would show up, sometimes directly under my feet. I would guess there were 10 to 15 seconds between waves; far too quickly for a low or medium-ish damage character to handle the waves.
I think we should save these sorts of missions for the alpha levels. I do like to do the crazy stuff. Too bad no one ever builds and runs these kinds of gauntlet missions for the AE. I'd be down with running a team doing a recreation of this mission (hint hint). -
Quote:Originally Posted by Max_zero
It's not free it costs 4 slots. Nothing wrong with slotting procs in there if you have no where else to put them. Slotting 4 procs is only slightly better then slotting 2 procs and 2 damage IOs 59.72 damage (0.83 x 72) versus 51.33.
It's completely different. You are still averaging damage. 45.9* damage (which is what the power does slotted with 2 level 50 damage IOs on a Controller) is not the same thing as a chance for 72, 144, 216, 288 or more damage concentrated on a single enemy at random. The only place an enemy dies "an average number of times" is on spreadsheets. Dealing 72 damage 20% of the time is not the same as dealing 20% of 72 damage all the time.
*Note that the base damage of the power is 25, so all users start with this level of damage. Slotting two damage IOs increases the value by about 20 damage. This damage is averaged across all enemies and does not concentrate on any one of them. It is, however, more or less "guaranteed."
[EDIT: I just reread this and my previous post and they sound huffy. I don't mean it to. I guess I speak too tersely about math topics. Because I actually really hate math. This particular issue with proc damage being averaged really has been a sore point for me for a long time tho. I didn't mean to make it sound so personal, I am just kind of a nerd-rager who types faster than he can think, as others here will tell you.] -
Quote:Originally Posted by twelfth
Wow that was a lot more interest than I thought there would be on the topic.
Will definitely be slotting the -res proc; I'll probably save up some of the other damage ones to slot in later in my build (presently only a 26 corr) as recharge and global acc get modified.
To give you an idea on overall build slotting, what I have found ideal is a massive recharge build with large global accuracy bonuses. That lets me put a single Recharge IO in Sleet (or even Lady Grey Recharge/Defense Debuff), and slot 5 procs.
Note however that I mainly play low damage characters who don't solo AVs. For an AV soloer you probably want insane recharge--basically you want to be able to double-stack the Sleets. I have never actually done this. It is far more practical against a hard single target than against large groups who tend to die quickly. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Gilia
I believe with 4 the chance that one hits is only 59%, not 67%. I know the formula you used was 1-((Chance for Failure)^Trials)= Chance of at least one success. So 1-(0.8^trials), and your first three match what I get.
That's only relevant because you used the 67% in the next step. Though, you could have just as easily used the same formula and assumed 8 trials. Either way, the end result is 83%. Not much lower than your 89%. I think your point is still completely valid.
Oops you're right. I copied out of the wrong column. 67% are the odds with 5 procs, not 4. With 4 procs I agree the odds are 59%, with an end result of 83% chance. Thanks for the correction! -
Quote:Originally Posted by Max_zero
Kinda.
The next chance to proc will be after 10 seconds.
For me the only really worthwhile proc in Sleet/Rain in Ach. Hell -resist proc. Really ups the damage on a target.
Your standard damage proc does 91 damage (70 odd x 1.3 due to resist debuff) over 10 seconds with a 20% chance to proc. A whole 1.82 extra DPS per target. I don't consider that a good use of a valuable slot.
Hmm. I don't look at it that way at all. Especially on a low-ish damage character like some Controller or Defenders.
I'll ignore -Resistance for the moment and pretend the proc hits at base value. That's a 20% chance for about 72 damage. This breaks down the odds that at least one fires per enemy per tick as follows:
[EDIT: Corrected math]
*Actual odds are slightly lower. I'm assuming that the Sleet power itself actually hit the target.Code:Procs Slotted Chance at Least 1 Hits* 1 20% 2 36% 3 49% 4 59%
So, with 4 damage procs slotted, your odds that at least one of them fires are 59% per tick, per enemy. There are two ticks (one at cast time and one at the 10 second pulse), so the odds that at least one proc hits the enemy in total are 1-((1-.59)^2) = 83%. There is an 83% chance per enemy that you hit them for a minimum of 72 damage. One way to look at it is that it is essentially the same as receiving at least a free Defender-level Power Burst each time you cast Sleet or Freezing Rain. That's not even considering enemies who get hit with more than one tick. You'll be keeping the power up all the time (or at least you should), so you're getting a free lunch here. Importantly, you are not expending extra seconds because you would be expending time on the Sleet or Freezing Rain animation anyway.
Now, the way you've put it, the damage is spread out across 16 enemies. That is not, IMO, an appropriate way to look at it. The damage is focused on particular enemies, not spread out across the board. In fact, standard DPA and DPS models completely fail to capture what actually happens, because they only look at averages.
Multi proccing a power that is constantly active actually has an effect similar to a pet with a powerful single target attack and a weaker AoE. It runs around doing damage to specific enemies, and one or two unlucky guys get clocked with the heavy hitter. No one would think to calculate the DPS of Jack Frost or Animate Stone by dividing their damage to a single target by a group of 16 enemies; you look at it based on the guy who got stomped. That enemy died, because the damage was concentrated on him. You win fights by beating particular enemies, not knocking down the overall average damage of the group.
Anyway, I hope that's helpful. Hopefully I didn't flub the math too badly.
-
Quote:Originally Posted by Gilia
My only concern with the changes is that if Ice Slick took KB enhancements, it'd become Knockback instead of Knockdown. They'd have to lower the KB magnitude to avoid that (it's 0.5 now, vs say 0.1 of Freezing Rain), but that could mean HAVING to enhance Knockback to make it work on some enemies. Of course they could work around that. Give it a 0.25 enhancable effect, and a 0.25 unenhancable effect. That way it starts at the same base, but doesn't turn into knockback unless they're a lower level than you and super enhanced.
Earthquake has the same issue, but is slottable with knockback IOs anyway. No one actually slots it this way, instead what they do is slot a damage proc. Ice Slick (and Ice Patch, the mini version) is an IO vacuum. It takes only range, recharge, and endurance reduction commons.
The only advantage Ice Slick has over similar "knock patches" is its chance for knockdown is 9% per pulse. Earthquake is 8% but it has enhanceable auto-hit -Defense and -ToHit. Ice Slick's -Run Speed is not enhanceable, but probably should be.
Might I add that a small part of Ice Control's IO woes is the sheer lameness of the Slow IO sets as a whole. The phrase that comes to mind is "genuinely inapplicable." That goes not just for Ice Control but for all of the slow-heavy sets. The bonuses are weak and there isn't a power I can think of that would benefit from actually 6 slotting any of the slow sets. What's with the combo of Accuracy, Endurance, Recharge, and half-axed Damage? The damage is too low to match a real damage set, so its inclusion just tanks the usefulness of the sets. One useful proc would really kick the slow-toggle powers into gear and immensely increase their utility.
[EDIT]
The only slow power I can think of that combines all of slow IO boosts are actual damage powers, and Flash Freeze. Flash Freeze is puzzle wrapped within an enigma to me. Not only does it have the longest recharge of all dedicated AoE sleeps available in a primary set (including Blasters), it requires enemies to be close to the ground to even work. And just in case you were thinking of somehow stacking it, it features what can only be described as "screw you" damage to thwart you. The power does six points of damage at level 50. While it's dangerous to compare powers across sets, clearly someone thought Ice Control was already very powerful compared to say, Plant Control, and decided the power needed not 1 nor 2 but 3 downsides to it. I wonder what that person would say if he or she saw the game now. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
What was its recharge before all the AOEs were smacked down years ago? Did it get hit then?
(And gravity really just needs Propel speeded up, IMHO. Perhaps the initial animation for Wormhole, as well. I've gotten to where I just don't take Propel, or put it off - by the time I've finished animating my lamp post, computer, etc. either the team has finished that mob, the one beyond it, and the one past that, or the target has died of old age.)
There's a note in the Issue 5 Release Notes that says:
Increased Recharge time of Ice Control/Shiver. Change to bring this power more in line with other AoE control powers.
So my guess is they nerfed the Controller version and forgot a Blaster version existed (operating on the assumption Ice Manipulation existed at the time, which I'm not sure of). -
Quote:Originally Posted by Tsuji
For what it's worth I think gravity is much worse off than ice, but the only ice control character I have is a dom, so I don't have bad endurance problems and can use domination to stop arctic air from getting detoggled.
For controllers recharge on arctic air definitely needs to go down A LOT. No question. When a half second stun neuters half of your control capabilities for such a long time there's a problem. It also uses up so much end that it seems like you should be able to switch it on and off quickly.
If I were going to change something else in ice I would actually change shiver somehow, maybe reduce the animation time. Maybe add some -damage or something. I'd say give it a weak kind of pulsing sleep like elec has, but I guess the only way to do that is with a patch and, well, cottage rule and all.
I agree about Gravity. I think it's in much worse shape than Ice. I think what Ice needs is a "love tap." Gravity needs to get smacked with a 2 by 4.
What's weird about Shiver is it's a shared power with Blasters. For some reason the Blaster version recharges in 12 seconds and the Controller/Dominator version in 30 seconds. The reason for this is one of the great mysteries I've never been able to solve about this game. Given the already strange recharge ratio, it wouldn't be totally off the table to me to split off Shiver into a totally new power for Ice Control. Keep the current effect, add something new to it to justify its longer Recharge. I agree that -Damage would be appropriate. Another option is to make it a much weaker, unstackable AoE Benumb with perhaps a -15% to all effect. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Two people are handed a guitar. You, and Eric Clapton.
You, by comparison to Clapton, suck. What should you do?
Answer A: Quit.
Answer B: Learn and get better.
Pick the one you like, and quit whining about the people who have done B. And FWIW, I think an "average skilled player" is going to have trouble the first time, see what's going on, and be just fine afterward.
You forgot Answer C: Play a character that is naturally a good soloist, which is at least 50% of the reason some people can solo stuff and others can't. Yes, those powers and numbers DO mean something. I can solo this mission with some characters and not others. Does that mean I'm a good player sometimes and should quit playing others until I can satisfy your challenge? -
Quote:Originally Posted by ketch
I agree with StarKitten. Recharge suffers from diminishing returns. For many of my characters, they've reached the point where additional recharge will add little to their performance.
When trying to determine which alpha boost to use, it's going to take a careful examination of all the powers I use for that particular character.
Except that this Recharge ignores ED...
It depends on what your current values are tho. IMO if a significant number of your powers have a Recharge still above 30 seconds and can be stacked, the Recharge is worth it. -
Quote:Originally Posted by twelfth
Hey there folks. Quick question, and I think it's been answered before, but I can't recollect what the facts were.
Looking at storm summoning Freezing Rain. Noticed that it takes (accurate) defense debuffs.
So that suggests that I could stick in the Lady Grey Chance/Neg Dmg and Achilles Heel Procs into it.
Question is - when to the procs fire? On each target? On each damage tick? Or just on each use/click of the power?
Thanks for any assistance.
I think once on the first cast of the power and then once again 10 seconds later. Each enemy in the radius rolls its chance individually.
You can proc the heck out of this power, by the way. I think it can take 5 total, at which point it's basically an AoE blast. -
Quote:I'm not sure if we've talked about it before I disagree with you anyway.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I disagree that its powers conflict with itself - I know you're thinking of ice slick and frostbite, at least if I'm remembering correctly. We see the same thing - to some extent - in EQ and Cages, as well as Bonfire and Fire Cages. (Admittedly that last one is doing Fire's damage-damage-damage theme.)
The difference is that Earthquake and especially Bonfire are not mainline controls for those sets, and both Earthquake and Bonfire both have a secondary effect that works even if enemies are caged. Earthquake even has an enhanceable auto-hit -ToHit debuff. Earthquake also takes three sets worth of IO types, allowing for damage procing. Ice Slick takes no sets at all, not even knockback.
Basically what I find often happens with Ice Control is I'm standing around my teammates going "You know what would be great? If the set that depends the most on teammates could actually use it's main AoE when other Controllers are around."
Admittedly though it's happening less often now that Red side ATs are around, since Dominators have become somewhat popular and they don't need cages for Containment. But I'm still not sure this justifies the dead last damaging set in the game, who is extremely dependent on teammates, being one of the easiest to make irrelevant when those teammates are actually there.
I also disagree with your statement that Arctic Air is not dangerous. It's certainly fun, and a huge part of the reason I took two Ice Controllers to 50, but that power is one of the most hazardous controls I've used, and compared to powers in the Seeds of Confusion > Flashfire > Stalagmites > Synaptic Overload lineup it's hard to call it "safe." Especially now that IOs and alpha slots are pushing the recharge time on that style of power to about 10-20 seconds.
But yeah I'd settle for a toggle cost reduction and a slightly buffed pet if nothing else. I do think the change to Ice Slick would be a huge positive though. The set wasn't designed with Containment in mind, and once it happened, the inherent conflict between damage and safety kind of blew the balance on this set, IMO.
