Oedipus_Tex
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Posts
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Quote:Originally Posted by Magnet_Hope
I'd like to see your farming build (plant/kin) when you get around to it.
You might be waiting a while... this thread started back in March of 2010.
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I'm not a very big fan of Sonic Resonance, so unfortunately I don't have any good advice for you. Illusion is a pretty powerful set with any secondary tho. You didn't mention your APP or alpha slotting but for this pairing I'd be thinking about Fire and (probably) Spiritual.
But you also really lose nothing from walking away from a character. In the end we all end up walking away from them. They are just experiences we've had. I'd say put her in the cooler if you're really just not enjoying the play, and don't delete her until you really need the space. If you need the space now and have major heartburn about deleting her, you can always pay to transfer her to another server. -
If I had to pick something, it would be Range. 2 slots gives it 104ft range, and you can cast it around corners. One of my favorite tricks for Bonfire is to throw it just behind a group so they all get flung toward me.
I wouldn't slot KB because it ruins the power's occasional ability to convert into knockdown. I have only seen this happen with the robots in one of the level 50 arcs, but I can think of few things more overpowered than autohit knockdown every 0.2 seconds for 30 seconds.
I would honestly have a hard time 6 slotting it though. It's pretty efficient as a power. Are you sure there is nowhere else you can put the slots? -
Quote:In addition to what has already been said, you open with Aim for the +50% ToHit for 10 seconds and "trap" everything in the defense debuff state. Or you rest comfortably in the knowledge that enemies planning to do -ToHit to you, which also requires their stacking it, aren't going to do much.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Irradiate requires you to hit in the first place, though. If you're having trouble hitting and need the debuff, how do you realistically expect to have the enemy debuffed?
I mean, I'm not going to argue that -Defense is a total game changer or that the kind of person broadcasting for debuffs is going to be impressed. But I also can't look at the debuff in Rad and call it completely useless, if Tactics is considered a benchmark of utility. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Nihilii
Quantity has nothing to do with quality. It's better to have just Tactics than a bazillion hypothetical tohit powers that would each give 1% tohit... or than a bunch of defense debuffs, incidentally.
Apples and oranges. You're comparing a freebie debuff in a blast to a power more or less devoted exclusively to +ToHit. If we could get +ToHit for the team as a secondary effect to a Blast set I'd play it of course. Tactics itself is an ok power, but you burn a power pick and endurance cost to run it.
Case in point, after slotting 50 IOs:
Tactics: +18.71% ToHit
Irradiate: -59.9% Defense for 10 seconds (which is ~28% on +4s, discounting AVs)
None of this means that I'd call rad blast a "debuff set," but I think the statements about -Defense being "worthless" are incorrect. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Out of this list, the only thing defense debuffs do that tohit buffs can't do better is allowing confused enemies to hit each other more.
Please point me to the blast set with +ToHit in its attacks that affects teammates.
[EDIT: Actually, I'll take a list of 5 any Defender powers that can hit a team of 8 with +ToHit. I can only think of 1 power. There may be more. Not being ugly, legitimately curious.]
P.S. forgot to mention -ToHit largely unbreaks builds that break when you exemp. -
Whether defense debuff is better or worse than +ToHit is entirely up to how you want to paint it.
For starters, defense debuffs affect Mastermind multi-pets, Fire Imps, and Gremlins, who going into +4 missions are swinging at enemies who are +5 and +6 to them. It also makes confused enemies better able to hit each other. It also makes Controller AoE holds more likely to hit.
Not to mention, have you taken a look at the builds people put on the boards for comment? That's the ones with the sense to come here to ask how to slot. I would be completely shocked if more than 50% of people at level 50 were able to hit +4 enemies with all of their powers at 95% odds. Some of my own Controllers can't even do it. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Dark_Healer_NA
It doesn't help that my primary for that character is DP, so regardless of what I use i end up rooted while blue patches rain down on me.
DP is not the problem here.
Indeed it does.Quote:What they wind up doing, is a wonderful job demonstrating the value of short animations and the value of sets that don't need elaborate setup to measure up. It also shows just how valuable the opportunity to make choices is. It also manages to expose just how illusory balance is in the game.
Teammates move around too much to stand in my bubbles. FF and Sonic are screwed!
No one can get close to BM during the rain. Kinetics is screwed!
I can't keep BM in a debuff patch or near pets. Trick Arrow and Storm are screwed!
I don't have any debuffs. Empathy is screwed!
I'm not Radiation or Cold. Thermal is screwed!
Someone thought to bring Envenomed Daggers. Radiation and Cold Dom are screwed!
Poison, of course, it just screwed.
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[Duplicate post deleted]
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Well. I just want to LOL-promise that that Task Force had a couple of melees on it who thought they were in some kind of position to judge a multiplier set. Any of them. The game should gift debt anytime a Scrapper makes a comment about which support character he or she thinks is useful.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Toony
Apex was fairly poorly designed. It invalidates any set that is slow or has a set up time in battle. Yes your traps MM can still take part but your secondary is mostly worthless. Yes your stone tank can take part but you're probably their worst tank choice and will be the equivilant of taking a stalker back when the LRSF first came out.
Please devs. If you're going to force us to team to do content now, then don't poorly design future incarnate content so that it excludes certain sets. I'll likely never take my stone tank on Apex because I'll be a burden to the team. Teleports activation is too slow when Battle Maiden begins dropping those fire patches that activate in 3 seconds (so considering reaction time I have about .5 seconds to activate TP, select a location, and go there.) And no, turning off granite isn't really an option since granite gives you your mez protection. If you turn it off, you need to turn on rooted (which has a harsher speed debuff than granite) and that would defeat the point of turning off granite.
It isn't poorly designed. What's poorly designed are the other 100+ AV fights that have taught us that a singular "strategy" should work in every single encounter. I think the problem is the overly harsh penalties of Stone Armor, not the encounter. And I doubt you'll convince many people in the know to feel sorry for Traps. -
Obviously this means Traps is underpowered or Battle Maiden is broken, because it was a conscious design intent for Traps to be better than everything.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Except Repulsion Bomb isn't a pseudo-pet, it's a direct AOE. It was a conscious design decision when FF was tweaked, possibly in order to ensure the Controller version didn't outshine the Defender one.
Yeah the original Repulsion Bomb was... not good. The current one is ok but I do wish it had a faster cast time. -
On open world PVP: I would prefer a different approach. Yes you can go to the opposite side's city. However, when you do, you go to a PVP instance of that map instead of the normal one. Opposite side players are alerted to your presence there (via a message that can be turned off for people who want to ignore it) and can choose to go to that map and hunt you down if they wish. Mobs in the opposite side's cities have a chance to drop PVP IOs, giving you an incentive to try for them.
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I agree about this. The value of hero and villain merits enormously outweighs the marginal benefit of being able to team on either side.
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Quote:Are you talking about the Elec/Kin Controller I posted who skipped Fulcrum Shift in favor of 6 slotted Kick?Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Never mind that we're already talking about levels of IO absurdity that make perma-hasten a given, even single-slotted.
Absurd was indeed the word for that. But the question was "what is the most recharge possible" and that is the best I could do. My only goal was to slot as many bonuses as possible without regard to power selection or use. The other builds, like the Mind/Kin is viable but would drive me crazy like I said.
Quote:Missed the part about toggles eh? Quote:I'm saying for the purposes of how much recharge one can get that you not factor in non-auto/toggle powers
Hasten and AM are not toggle powers. By "non-auto" do you mean powers that you can shift-click to force to auto fire? I thought you meant powers like in Super Reflexes that just provide a perma bonus. The question about "missing toggle powers" made me think you were talking about an actual +Recharge toggle, which there are none.
Quote:Still missing the part about "sustainable in a vacuum".
Why not just start talking about getting two teams of */rads and two teams of */kins together and talking about how much recharge they can do unto one another?
That's how I classify powers requiring user/enemy interaction (outside of a power with no enemy interaction required, set to auto-fire).
Ok but that is a personal decision on your part. I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it, but I'm not going to back down on my POV either. What you are calling permanent bonuses actually are not. If you die seconds after firing Hasten, you lose the bonus and it doesn't come back until Hasten recharges. Hasten can also recharge while you are Held and result in you losing several seconds. These are among the things that happen outside the vacuum you are talking about. It is not the case that your example is pristene and mine is not. Both of them make certain assumptions about what external variables are included.
[P.S. I want to add that I'm not trying to grill you personally. I'm actually relieved to come back to CoH and find a complex system worth arguing about after spending a weekend... in that other place with 6 powersets and 3 color selections.] -
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In my personal opinion, normal recharge is recharge that requires no special circumstances beyond the player being able to activate powers. This includes autohitting self buffs like Hasten. Powers that grant recharge under special circumstances, which includes having to roll to hit a target, fall under the category of situational recharge. However, unless that situation is "fighting things impossible to hit" its not unreasonable to count it in an informal discussion. In a formal discussion, we'd have to factor in the fact that you can miss targets, and you can be slowed (which would affect the perma nature of powers like Hasten).
Recharge that cannot be altered is what I normally call "intrinsic recharge" like that from enhancements, set bonuses, and powers that cannot be involuntarily switched off (like passives, also Alpha buffs).
This can be a tricky question even to resolve personally. For example, my Energy blaster slots Force Feedback (the proc). As in "everywhere." I have to hit a target for that proc to work, and the proc doesn't fire all the time. Nevertheless, I know with certainty that in combat I'm all but guaranteed to get *some* benefit from it. Suppose I have a total of 350% total recharge in hasten from enhancements, itself, and global recharge. That would make Hasten non-perma: you need 375% to do that. The gap is about 11 seconds. However, every time I trigger Force Feedback I get a 5 second +100% recharge buff. In real terms that is equivalent to shaving about 5 seconds from base recharge time of Hasten (450 seconds). If I can do that 6 times in two minutes, Hasten will become perma. To do that, I have to average triggering the proc once every twenty seconds in combat. That's not easy, but its also not impossible, particularly with it slotted in torrent and EB. But its close. I would be pushing my luck to call Hasten perma here.
But what if I only need 4 triggers in two minutes. Or two. How about one? At that point, even if I'm shooting at nothing but MoGed PPs I'm going to be able to manage that. At some point you have to make a judgement call. Not everyone will make the same one.
Yeah it gets tricky. What I always hate is getting killed a few seconds after Hasten fires. So much for the perfectly min/maxed assumptions about power recharges. ;/
You could end up arguing this 15 different ways based on what-ifs. I'm in the bad habit of forgeting to unqueue powers long enough to let Hasten fire, resulting in my "perma" Hasten actually being not quite. In fact, I bet a lot of people don't realize that having Hasten recharge somewhat faster than "perma" is actually beneficial if you are a power-gunner because it gives you more options on when to halt temporarily to let Hasten fire. -
Quote:It also doesn't do anything if you don't have powers that are recharging.
The recharge from Siphon is NOT self-sustaining. You have to keep spamming it to keep it going. Also, it does not work if you have no enemies.
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about.Quote:Missed the part about toggles eh?
I kind of feel that double stacking Siphon Speed happens a bit more often than Jupiter aligning with Mars during the age of Aquarius. I'm not married to the argument, or even playing any of these builds, but you seem to be arguing that an average Kinetics user is not OCD enough to cast this power once every 30 seconds. Having watched them farm, I disagree.Quote:Anything else is subject to the vagaries of user error. And I don't feel like arguing "If I catch everything, the wind's blowing in the right direction, and all the proper stars are aligned I'm at ###.##%"
Once every 30 seconds is the same as Drain Psyche. Would you argue that Drain Psyche users don't have considerably higher endurance recovery and regen than other characters? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Saltyhero13
Even with poor shield slotting and a small investment for the two +def pet IOs you can easily get +30% defense (+35% is within reach by including Maneuvers.) for the notoriously squishy Fire Imps.
Is +30% Def on the Pet vs. Critter Table (-1 for imp levels) that bad to be considered insignificant? (I don't know what the values are but based on your statement it sounds like softcapping Fire Imps would take more than +45%). I only ask because I notice a huge difference between buffed and unbuffed imps.
The caveat being that you would have to play in melee with your controller to pull these numbers (I recommend doing so to maximize Hot Feet but then again I play a Fire/Cold/Stone). Throw in a ~50% (~500hp) hp gain with Frostworks slotted with a health SO at level 50.
It's a sort of "better than nothing" situation. It's always better to put shields on pets than to not shield them. I didn't think of the pet IOs actually, and that could help push the numbers up to something more decent if you can afford the slots. You could also throw Smoke in there to make it work somewhat better. You may even be able to soft cap them. Interesting. -
Quote:Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Wait, Repulsion Bomb and Force Bolt don't get Containment damage, but BOXING does?! APP powers also get Containment damage, but not your secondary. That doesn't make any sense at all.
Basically yes. I guess the Containment damage isn't there to keep Controllers from flipping the bird at Defenders even more than they currently do. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
I'm not saying don't use it. I'm saying for the purposes of how much recharge one can get that you not factor in non-auto/toggle powers because the recharge rate isn't a guaranteed constant, due to it requiring continual monitoring by a highly fallible control device made of meat.
The +20% recharge from one cast of Siphon is identical to the passives. Whatever else is going on, a Kin who isn't hitting at least the same recharge levels that a Super Reflex user is is playing with one hand tied behind his or her back. They can easily match the SR, and surpass them if they wish.
Secondly, if we eliminate all non-passives, then we have to rule out Hasten. If Hasten is in, then so is AM. If AM is in, why is Siphon not? Two casts of Siphon, costing about 4 seconds of animation time, beat AM. Since the thread is called "most recharge possible" the award needs to go to the set that has the most recharge possible. Even if we don't go for triple-stacks, double-stacks are not hard to do or maintain. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Local_Man
I don't have access to Mids or game right now, but I think my slotting in Choking Cloud on my Fire/Rad is Hold, EndRdx/Hold, Acc/Rech/Hold and Chance for Smashing from Unbreakable, a common EndRdx, and the Lockdown +2 Mag proc. It gives up some EndRdx (which is OK since I use the Cardiac boost and otherwise have good recovery) for some Acc and Rech and that 15% global accuracy boost. I wish I had room for one more Unbreakable for that nice 10% Recharge, but I can't fit it in without making the power less functional.
Since Choking Cloud is essential on my Fire/Rad, I decided to commit the Unbreakable set to CC rather than Cinders. I may play with it and come up with other slotting, but that damage proc plus the Lockdown proc in CC is very nice.
I am looking at moving the full purple set to Choking too.
One thing I hadn't thought of for the 2 AoE holds is swapping Basilisk for the Gladiator's Net PVP IOs. They have a damage bonus, +2.5 endurance cap, and +.7.5% recharge with 5 slots, and unlike Basilisk, go up to level 50. I suspect they are extremely expensive though. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Which is why I'd look at maximum "self sustaining", as in "requires no user activity/intervention".
Because triple and quad-stacked Siphons are great and all. But if all you're doing is spamming Siphon to maintain that recharge level, it's pretty much useless.
I'm pretty sure triple stacked siphon is the standard for hardcore farming Fire/Kins. It's definitely doable. Siphon's cast time is only 1.93 seconds, so it's not that different from making sure to, say, throw an Ice Bolt every so often. Or, on an Empath, cast Fortitude on a new person each time it comes up. It would drive ME insane, but some people seem to do it. -
I'm fairly confident that if we include bonus Recharge from powers that nothing can beat Kinetics. I don't see how any set could get to the +60% Kinetics gets from triple stacking Siphon Speed. So in a contest of sheer numbers its pretty much Kinetics or bust. (Of course, Siphon Speed can miss, but even given that you're probably still looking at a very reliable +40%.)
The Elec/Kin Controller I posted maxed out the top 4 categories of bonuses: Purples, LotGs, 7.5s, 6.25s. I only had room for 2 5s. That build had some of the most terrible power selections imaginable. There may be a way to score one extra 5. But as someone pointed out, it would be smarter to put 2 recharge in Siphon and quad stack it (although Mids doesnt show this value--I'm still unclear on whether it stacks that high even if you have the Recharge). The end result is 316.3% Recharge if quad stacked or 296.3 if triple stacked. If it's possible to beat that number I suspect its by no more than 5%. Although the Spiritual alpha set, if viewed as a "Global" could affect numbers.
The Mind/Kin/Earth I posted is actually playable. It came in at +276.3 recharge after fixing slotting in Transfusion to use Panaceas for +7.5 instead of the +5 I originally posted. Fissure has the Force Feedback +100% Recharge proc, hits 16 enemies, and has a recharge time of about 5 seconds. End results are Mass Confusion and Total Domination recharging in 51 seconds, which is... almost ridiculously overpowered really. My Mind/Cold has these powers on 70 second recharge or so and is already something of a terror. I'm not sure I could handle the responsibility. Even if keeping up that level of Recharge would drive me insane.
Makes me want to do a Mind/Rad build, which would get slightly smaller numbers but benefit a lot from them. That's an amazing combo that I have only seen in the game exactly once. -
If you're willing to go down the Endurance alpha route, this build would give you soft capped Ranged defense, nearly soft capped slash/lethal (close enough that it probably won't matter much), 48% s/l resistance to help with what damage does get through (boosted by the endurance alpha), and fire attacks. Consume is not a great power but will help you recover some additional endurance every few minutes. The casualty was Repulsion Bomb. If you're willing to spend billions for the PVP +defense IO, that power can be added back in and several additional changes can be made to reconfigure this build to grab either more recharge or to try to cap Psi defense.
By the way some people would likely call the FF shields underslotted. You can get better numbers out of them but because you can't cap people's defenses on your own it's a crap shoot based on who else is on the team. By itself increasing the defense much more does little, and in a team situation its impossible to know where your numbers will end up.
FYI this build doesn't exemp well at all... but few Ice builds do.
One more note. This build depends heavily on Tactics to make up for some of its missing Accuracy. I looked at the powers all the way to against +4s and as long as there is no -ToHit or +Defense from enemies you should hit fine. If you run into any though a few powers are screwed. This is the case with most extreme builds so you're probably still ok. However, one power that will fail you in that situation is Consume. If there are fights where your endurance is flagging, detoggle Tough first, since of all your toggles it does the least for you (and the defense IO it has works even when the power is off).
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Ice Control
Secondary Power Set: Force Field
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Block of Ice -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(3), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(3), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(5), Dmg-I(31), Apoc-Dmg(50)
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 2: Frostbite -- Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(A), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(5), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(11), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(46)
Level 4: Chilblain -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 6: Arctic Air -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(7), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(7), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(9), CoPers-Conf%(9), EndRdx-I(34)
Level 8: Shiver -- Acc-I(A)
Level 10: Deflection Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Enzym(11)
Level 12: Ice Slick -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Insulation Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Enzym(15)
Level 16: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19)
Level 18: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 20: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(21), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(21), RedFtn-EndRdx(39), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(40), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 22: Dispersion Bubble -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(23), RedFtn-EndRdx(23), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(37), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(39), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 26: Glacier -- UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(A), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(27), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(27), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(29), UbrkCons-Hold(29)
Level 28: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Enzym(31), HO:Enzym(31)
Level 30: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(34), GSFC-Build%(36), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(42), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(42), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(42)
Level 32: Jack Frost -- SvgnRt-Acc/EndRdx(A), SvgnRt-Dmg/EndRdx(33), SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg(33), SvgnRt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), SvgnRt-Acc(34), SvgnRt-PetResDam(46)
Level 35: Vengeance -- Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(A), Rec'dRet-Pcptn(36)
Level 38: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Enzym(40), HO:Enzym(43)
Level 41: Fire Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 44: Fire Ball -- Ragnrk-Dmg(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 47: Consume -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(48), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Fire Shield -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(19), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(45), P'Shift-End%(50)