So I have this idea... (Ice/Therm)

So I have an idea for a character. Sgt. Calhoun, praetorian PPD officer turned Powers Division when his powers were discovered.

I'm considering an Ice/Therm controller for the combination, but I'm not really familiar with playing Controllers. I do have a high level Earth dom though, and some experience with Fire, so mostly, I'd be looking for advice?

It depends on what your expectations are. As an Ice/Therm your damage will be low until you pick up Jack and your epic. Even then it wont be anything amazing.

Have you considered a Fire/Cold? It has about the same amount of control but its damage output is better.

Nope, mostly due to a raving dislike for Char. I can't explain it. I just don't like it at all.

Also I don't really like Hot Feet. Again, can't explain why.

Plus, ice cubes.

Dang, I was going to suggest fire/cold as well until I read those. Fire/cold just has a lot more synergy than ice/therm. Haha but Jack frost with fire shields will look cool.

My first 50 was an Ice/Therm. It's an interesting combo. Nothing at all like Fire/Cold, and not really any better or worse.

Compared to a Dominator, this character will do a lot lot lot less damage. The first 32 levels you pretty much have to team through. This is a true support character, and not bad at it. Ice as a set is low in hard control but surprisingly good at handling mezz protected enemies. My Ice/Therms heyday was when people farmed all-boss AE missions, and he was pretty much the only Controller whose primary was even worth bringing into that scenario.

Power selections are going to be tight. I would skip the rezz in Thermal.

In terms of pure power gaming, in retrospect Ice/Empathy has a very similar playstyle to Ice/Thermal but is probably more powerful, at least solo. Empathy has better endurance recovery, bursts of huge regen, a defense-based shield for poor squishy Jack, and Adrenalin Boost. However, you lose Thermal's debuffs. It's just that I can't help noticing that with the right alpha slotting and IO/power selections I suspect its possible for Empathy to make Jack Frost damn near invincible. He'll never be the tank the Earth pet is... which is lame actually, because Ice needs it more... but he will put a serious hurt on the enemies. The only major downside to Empathy is eventually someone will notice that is your secondary and try to tell you what powers they want you to use, like you are a buffing drive thru. This has never happened to me on a Thermal.

[EDIT: Nevermind, I forgot that softcapping Jack with Adrenalin Boost requires Power Boost, which isn't a practical power for Ice because Indom Will is better. Forget what I said about making Jack invincible.]

In any case my Ice/Therm at 50 easily beats my lone 50 Ice/FF Defender in soloability. Not that that's a major accomplishment. But he is much, much safer and despite the slow start at low levels isn't nearly as bad off later on as many people imagine Ice to be. Ample use of Indom Will from the Psi APP and a strategy of casting Ice Slick around corners makes the character suprisingly safe. But again I sort of wish I'd done Ice/Empathy for the amazing auras.

Fire/Cold is a very good character. Like I said before though, its not directly comparable to Ice/Therm. Controllers are weird like that. In some cases the only relationship two combos (sometimes even for the same primary!) have to each other is the purple icon. This is also probably why those of us who are Controller fans are so rabid about them.

Cold is a great set. My "main" character is a Mind/Cold so I have a lot of respect for the set. Unfortunately its open secret that for its first 35 levels it more or less completely sucks. The glowing reviews you hear of Cold really come after you are into the 40s, have Sleet and Heat Loss, and especially after you are heavily slotted. Also, because at high levels you spend a lot more time facing AVs, who are more rare early on. Prior to those developments, Cold is inferior to Force Field... and actually, almost everything else... with no personal mezz protection, no heal, and very few tools for turning a battle around. I'm not calling it a bad set, but "better" than other sets is definitely a relative term here.

The reason I mention the self heal or mezz protection is that Fire has a tendency to drag aggro back to you. Even at 50, Cold's shields are going to do very little for your imps. Even if you manage everything perfectly, the imp's tendency to die and drag aggro back to you and Fire's burst-based control mean you will be under a lot of fire. The imps are -1 to your level, so the shields just barely put them over what an unprotected pet would have. And then there's you, who will be taking a lot of incoming damage too, and outside of Flashfire and Cinders have little in the way of reacting. Luckily after heavy IOing, the endless endurance of Heat Loss lets you run shields all of the time.

The other hazard of rolling Fire/Cold purely for the damage is that you could build a Fire/.../Ice Dominator and do a lot lot lot more damage (outside of AVs). You'd still have the debuff of one of Cold's best powers, Sleet, pick up mezz protection, and get Domination for better hard controls. If you go Controller, make sure its the buffs and debuffs in combo with damage you are after and not the damage by itself. Cold Domination really is a great set, but since one of its best debuffs is available more or less unchanged in a Dominator APP, you really have to think carefully about what you are looking for.

And this isn't to mean Ice/therm is a bad pairing. It's just much more on the passive/support side that isn't as sexy in the eyes of a min/max player base. My Earth/storm didn't slot for damage until level 32. It's still one of the most fun rides I had to 50. Ice/therm will come into it's own much quicker as well. Fire/cold is near on the level of Fire/kin in terms of late blooming for both sets. Yes, Fire/cold is one of maybe the top 3 Fire combos. Just be glad you are already sitting down when you are playing the set because it's going to be awhile. I would at least give Ice/thermal a trial run and see how much you do, or don't like it. You can always switch and roll Fire/cold later on if you like.

Beyond the obvious thematic elemental pairing of Fire and Ice, which is why I suggested Fire/Cold to the OP, the two combinations are indeed nothing like each other and it would be silly for anyone to assume such (reversing names/elements doesn't necessarily provide equal performance).

I would even go as far to say that /Cold is a proactive set (the nature of /Cold +defense and +hp based buffs) vice /Thermal playing reactionary (the nature of /Thermals +res, anti mezz, buffs and healing). This is a generalized comparison if you count the debuffs that both sets provide as equal.

Ketch succinctly highlighted some of the synergistic elements of pairing Fire/ with /Cold here:

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Originally Posted by ketch Hot Feet is an endurance hog, and Heat Loss is an excellent counter to that. The imps are squishy which Cold can address with both defensive shields and an HP boost from Frostwork. On top of those is the greater synergy of fire providing higher than usual damage for a control set and Cold's defense and resistance debuffing.

The only thing I would add to Ketch's comments is the added soft control /Cold brings to the table. Fire/, IMO, is a weak control set in respect to control. /Cold grants access to Snow Storm and Sleet to help mitigate some of Fire/ lacking in control. In this pairing you would now have access to knockdown and/or slow as added control options (control options that Ice grants as a primary I might add). Great synergy these two.

Oedipus_Tex brings up some excellent points, but I strongly disagree with his points here:

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex Even at 50, Cold's shields are going to do very little for your imps. Even if you manage everything perfectly, the imp's tendency to die and drag aggro back to you and Fire's burst-based control mean you will be under a lot of fire. The imps are -1 to your level, so the shields just barely put them over what an unprotected pet would have. And then there's you, who will be taking a lot of incoming damage too, and outside of Flashfire and Cinders have little in the way of reacting. Luckily after heavy IOing, the endless endurance of Heat Loss lets you run shields all of the time.

Even with poor shield slotting and a small investment for the two +def pet IOs you can easily get +30% defense (+35% is within reach by including Maneuvers.) for the notoriously squishy Fire Imps. Is +30% Def on the Pet vs. Critter Table (-1 for imp levels) that bad to be considered insignificant? (I don't know what the values are but based on your statement it sounds like softcapping Fire Imps would take more than +45%). I only ask because I notice a huge difference between buffed and unbuffed imps. The caveat being that you would have to play in melee with your controller to pull these numbers (I recommend doing so to maximize Hot Feet but then again I play a Fire/Cold/Stone). Throw in a ~50% (~500hp) hp gain with Frostworks slotted with a health SO at level 50.

To the OP, if a supporting role is what you envisioned for your character, then your original pairing would meet your prerequisites. If not, I would consider another pairing for your controller. It all depends on your expectations.

I have an Ice/Therm troller (Igloo Summer), they are very competent team builds...not so much on the solo side. Ice has a good mix of soft and hard control. Thermal has a bit of everything: shields, buffs, debuffs, heals, and a rez ally. No real considerable damage until Jack and epic pool though. Can be a little end heavy, but I find that to be true of all my controllers...so, YMMV.

Simply put, there are more ways to make a controller who CANNOT solo well than there are to make a controller who CAN. These are characters who trade attacks for support, debuffs, buffs, and various forms of control.

Ice/Them will be one of those controllers that won't be able to solo well. There just isn't enough damage in the Ice Control Primary, though it makes for an excellent team character.

Therm is the same way. It's got a lot of useful powers, especially towards the end when you get your debuffs, but most of your buffs will be useless solo until you pick up your pet.

That being said, teams that lack in terms of offensive or tanking power will love to have an Ice/Therm around for the soft control, debuffs, buffs, and heals.