Nihilii
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Posts
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A+ topic, would read again.
Poor farming build though, sorry. -
Quick attempt at it :
Code:While Hasten is up, it loses half a sec on FSC, a second on FB and 2 seconds on SC, 5 seconds on AD (losing the perma double stack) and 12 HP, but it gains 90% regen, 6% tohit and is endurance sustainable using only BU, SC, FSC and FB, and can afford to add a few ST attacks here and there without losing end either. Hasten would be down for about 15 seconds.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1416;711;1422;HEX;| |78DAA5935B6F125110C7CFC2520A2C507A2FBD20D00A148AADF7B65E12AD2698925| |4A97DD0B6640BA740820B6179B03EF9A0261A9F34D1275FD47AF908C66FA27E13AD| |38974353E3A31BF8FFCE999D993333BB9BBFBF6208F1F0B2D00257EBA66D170BA59| |6D96CCA96775D96AA56A3DEA8EC0572BB8D56A5D1AEB56DCBBC27DD428870D7AD98| |977529B3D76BB2B5C7EBC8E1AD15B92B2D5B660BD59AAC97BBDB50CEAACA96B4DAD| |9EEC2586B34EA90A26D49DBF6D2A6D094B2CCF65569366B56C5AF9C2AD536ECFAAF| |356BA5EC95BAF94016F3A6DD86D347A1AC14FC1F617D74755CA2084888FE2DC2E02| |6E32E61EA0E639BE0F503348AD2C5102C1684A357C33B0E9D6078081917C107EE9A| |72D7D85D67F71E76EF711D8D32C0DDA9DC9D5127B98FC07E52240A143C7B9330779| |BF0185A70710BBA4B0A34F5961925827787D06F127AC0DDCDD9853B49263F1CE8E1| |0C9A6709A03B8557F109B8FBD4807C9F1DE81EDF274C7F647C20CCBE27CC7D22C42| |0CACF8738FC693A24F017E2E010E4B48EE0378AE9FBCEF84108404D211A5A4784A2| |14E38698014EEA1AB841A38A5EA2B9A472B44B6DD040523C970C4FA917A28638CA3| |9F48A720FBF60BC24445FF30EFC4654F6117E48A35CD8281716E6C2A6FBF8190C12| |9E42D4981ACFD845F6BB409858642C11A6960909EEE419448DABA8F134DD399662C| |C32925C5A82B0C0519A1B7BE52737D9814B38C1125196C8497E53C01453EDC6B88D| |38571CE78A330702D38460BE33AA84990E1D73FC27E3174350BEC4013FD7DF84B71| |095540726C354D53B30A59529CDA67D306555EEEC390A3C7186719A718AFB3A7BB4| |BD2044CDAB17739E2B9FD00FBF4EF861C7ABFF58D674F5298245234B443FFC3AFFE| |BFA6274F3786E7941D751D640B40D5C6DA26CE1761B5726AE76504AB8ED7C35BA95| |06CF63418B284B28CB28CFD1C98D5F960FC540F1A3045082287D280328C32861943| |7289D3FDCA9FCDB| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
I'll admit it's kind of disappointing as a result - Fireball builds, yuck !
I'd still rather use that with rages than the other with blues. Of course, the argument could be made that solo, you can have enough insps to pop blues as needed *and* stay at the damage cap, and on teams, you often have buffs/debuffs... But I like to plan for PuGs where the only buff/debuff AT is an empath defender spamming HA on auto, y'know ? Could be completely irrelevant for people who don't play in such teams, that's true.
Regardless, even in the spirit of the first build, I'd change two things : switch the Arma and Oblit set, as the purple damage proc in FSC gets used three to four times as often as in SC, and work a kismet in there somehow (maybe trading the def/end slot in CJ? dropping from 45% to 44.9% AoE isn't that big of a deal if you ask me). -
Quote:I can understand survivability being overkill eventually.
I think you're viewing something from the AV soloing perspective of no inspirations and self sufficiency. This isn't a build like that. It is less self sufficient than other builds but is designed for maximizing offense with a soft capped build.
I'd still insist at taking another look at the endurance issues in the OP's build. We're not talking about eventually running low on end ; we're talking about being low on end pretty much all the time as soon as you use FSC, FB and SC ; adding a ST chain into the mix, this build would go from max to 0 in less than a minute. Sure, you can pop blues, but you could just as well make it more end efficient and pop rages, ending up with a bigger damage increase than what the extra recharge gives you.
Now, that's assuming you attack as fast as possible, but if you don't... Then some of the recharge is wasted anyway, and you might as well make it end efficient or more survivable !
Going from +105% recharge to +65% recharge in set bonuses would barely make a one second difference on FSC, two seconds difference on FB, five seconds difference on SC and it'd leave room for being completely endurance sustainable. To compare with the previous build having to use 4 blues a minute, using 4 rages a minute would give the equivalent of perma-BU (except for the tohit aspect and for Shield Charge which is capped at 400%, of course). It's certainly worth losing these few seconds IMHO.
Edit : Looking at it though I admit it's a much harder task than I thought. -
Yeah, for Dark I'd sing a different tune as recharge directly improves your survivability and end management with SL and DC, and thanks to SL ~+35hp/s regen is definitely less important, and going with less resistances doesn't make as much of a difference. No argument here.
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Then you're either super lucky, always run with buffs/debuffs or are a super duper awesome player. Pick whichever you want.
Personally, I've died once tanking the ITF without insps on an invul tanker with defense far above the softcap, 90% S/L res, 35%ish neg, 300% regen and 3000hp ; I'm using this example to illustrate with pure survivability values far above that build, I've died. I've also died with Shield builds with "maxed" survivability, but I also avoided deaths in places I would have died with the build the OP posted.
My point in a nutshell : for any value of X, if you can do X with that build, you could do X+Y with a build that didn't focus on recharge so much. Whether Y is overkill or not is up to each individual to decide, personally I don't feel it is and I don't feel 40% rech is worth losing all the extra survivability when you're already at such high level of recharges, especially as you wouldn't be able to use that recharge efficiently in the OP's build seeing as it isn't endurance sustainable without outside buffs (though I guess you could certainly argue that if you can tank the ITF without insps on such a build, you could use all your insps to make blues, but I'd retort an endurance efficient build could use the same insps to make rages and end up with a bigger damage increase than the recharge gives you). -
Quote:I answered your argument with the first two points. I specifically said so. I then specifically said I was going to run other numbers for my own use, and that I wasn't using them to support my point in this conversation. The reasons I posted the third set of numbers is because it can eventually give insight to other people who have the same playstyle as me, and other people can eventually give me insight if I'm making mistakes in my calculations.
Which sounds like "all is heresay to what I think, ignore the data I just presented"
I mean, again, what ? Are you seriously trying to handwave the detailed math proving you're wrong after you've asked for detailed math to prove you wrong by pretending you're dense and focusing on something that is irrelevant to the argument simply because it is on the same post, despite a disclaimer clearly stating it isn't meant to be included in that argument ? You're not stupid so stop trying to pretend you are, you're embarrassing yourself by doing so. Stick to saying you disagree with the math for X and X reasons (i.e. such as slows not being considered) rather than playing dumb with semantics. -
I'm going to side with Effy, I think this build isn't as efficient as it could be for the amount of influence invested.
Specifically why I think that :
Survivability
- low resistances
- low regen
- lacks OwtS
- lacks Aid Self
- DDR isn't capped
Having some of these flaws in a build isn't so bad, but all of them, on a high end build ?... Basically, this build has barely more than the softcap. Ok, some DDR, good max HP, and some resistances, but it's far from the performance a Shield build can attain.
Accuracy
- no tohit outside of BU
- even with set bonuses, not enough accuracy on any attack to have a 95% hit rate on +4s.
Endurance
- no endurance management power
- low endurance reduction on high endurance powers
What I mean by that is with that build, if you turned off Tough and only used FSC and Fireball, NO other attack of any kind... You'd still lose 0.2 end per second. Add any ST attack and the loss becomes tremendous. [Edit : yeah, my bad, not actually true, you'd gain ~0.2 end per second using only FSC and FB (I forgot to consider the perf shifter and panacea proc). Adding Shield Charge or ST attacks would be enough to start losing end, though.]
Now if you don't care about fighting +4s nor farming and stick to relatively easy content, all that could be fine (although I think even in the ITF you could die if tanking due to the lack of capped DDR and S/L res) ; hell, you could probably do hard content with smart insp use, and, of course, as long as you have fun with the build nothing else matters.
Still, I really don't believe getting a bit more recharge and perma-hasten (which is the most overhyped thing ever for anything but a perma-dom) is worth all the sacrifices you do to get there, you could easily sit at ~60% global and fix most of the stuff highlighted above. -
EvilGeko sums it up perfectly, in my opinion.
I'd just add in some conditions (max targets in range for Soul Drain), DM can surpass Claws in ST DPS, part of it also thanks to negative energy damage rather than lethal. -
Quote:Probably, seeing as getting attacked by 17 AVs (aggro cap) and using a chain of brawl - shadow punch - repeat I could only maintain 95ish%.
Am I the only person in this thread who has no trouble maintaining 100% Fury in a full team, without being the lead Brute?! 
Semantics aside. Personally, I hit 90% quite often but it's rare I stay there for more than a few seconds. Travel time between each group is enough to make me drop to 70% at best (and worst than that if it's long). In some maps, caves for example, I sometimes see my Fury dropping from 90 to 20-30 if not 0 during travel from group to group, and that's using Hurdle + CJ for the four seconds after the last mob dies and real travel powers after that.
Getting 90% Fury with 3 minions simply isn't happening for me if I use my normal attack chain. They'll be dead in a few seconds and I'll be at 30-40, which will dip back to 15-20 by the time I reach the next group.
More importantly than my own experience, most of the brute players I see go slower than me, and end up with less Fury. So I think maintaining Fury is actually a pretty big deal, at least for PuG players.
Don't see this as me complaining about Fury, though. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that maybe the mechanic isn't for me - and I still enjoy brutes despite that. I'm just saying I feel I'm not alone in having trouble to maintain Fury, and for people like me brutes have lower than scrapper damage for most builds. -
Quote:You mean during travel time ?
Meanwhile, BA is working 100% of the time
Sure must be nice to have a 800' radius on BA, but on my version of CoH it's only 8'.
You're also making the same mistake someone else did everytime I make a long post with numbers, they quote it while not even reading it.Quote:You're also making the same mistake someone else did in your last scenario
Quoting myself with some emphasis added :
That should be enough, for that particular argument. Now I'm just going to run numbers based on my own experience, playstyle and datamining, which can be completely different for other people SO I'M NOT USING THIS AS A DATA POINT.
And again, I played it with SOs. I tanked with SOs. I tanked before SOs actually (level 21). To say it requires IOs to be playable is a flat-out lie.Quote:ITs only with IOs that it even becomes playable outside of teaming or wretched use of inspirations.
"Wretched use of inspirations" ? What is that, losing the argument so you switch to a new excuse you didn't use before ? I use inspirations as they drop, just like I do with other powersets. I had a better and easier experience while on SOs/common IOs with Shield than with other powersets. -
I was about to say using BU at the same time as SC gives enough tohit to ensure 95% tohit rate against up to +2s, but looking at it it's not actually true, I always put a kismet +6 tohit in all my alts and forgot about it.
You're correct, I'll adjust the post to make up for it. It makes SC much closer to "AaO fueled, 10 targets at all time" BA on SOs. -
Quote:Yawn.
Number crunching shows /SD is stronger but it needs serious IO investment to be playable.
Tanked on my ElM/SD from 21 to 27. Soloed +2/x8 from 27 to 47. All of which on SOs/common IOs except for a Steadfast, all of that was easier than on my other alts (played all secondaries to 50 except DA) on SOs/common IOs save for invulnerability.
You gotta love the back-and-forth on Shield.
"OMG Shield Charge isn't OPed you just look at the big damage numbers ingame but math shows it's different"
*proves SC is actually stronger*
"OMG Shield isn't that good you just look at spreadsheets ingame it's different"
...
If you ask me, my experience tells me Shield is far, far above any other secondary for most situations I'll encounter playing. I use numbers to objectively support what I already experienced and to provide a basis for discussion with other people, not to make up for a supposed lack of experience with the powerset.
The most obvious thing showing something might be too good in the Shield world is the amount of people vehemently arguing against the idea, though.
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So many people in this topic who disregard ET's -hp... So many of the same people who make and post builds geared towards maximum survivability in other sections of this forum.
Certainly strikes me as ironic to see folks frantically spending hundreds of millions for +5 HP/s while at the same time ignoring a self -15 HP/s. -
I wouldn't go with end red on SC (unless you get it as a side benefit from slotting an IO set for something else you want) ; as you're going to use the power every 30-40 seconds, the end cost is minimal at best, and I'd rather focus on maxing damage, recharge and accuracy in that order (accuracy being less important than the others because SC is on the same timer as Build Up).
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Quote:That's not what Katten is saying, but I'll take that argument.
I've been in this argument before, AAO + shield charge is no more overpowered than AAO + a damage aura would be.
1/
Assuming the best case scenario for damage auras and worst case scenario for Shield Charge, that is, running on SOs with no recharge bonuses or Hasten [edit : note as Chaos String pointed out below, this is only true for +0/+1 foes, over that SC needs accuracy slotting. That means I'll also have to go over all values and multiply by 0.95 for maximum tohit chance.]
Blazing Aura (highest damaging damage aura) does 13.76 base damage every 2 seconds, or 6.88 base damage per second, in a 8 feet radius and hits at most ten targets. Assuming a +297% damage buff from full AaO, damage slotting and Build Up averaged to +22% damage (46s recharge with 3 recharge SOs), that's 20.43 damage per second to one target.
Max is 10.
Total damage : 20.43 * 10 * 0.95 = 194.1 per second.
Shield Charge does 200.2 base damage with a 90 second recharge, in a 20 feet radius and hits at most sixteen targets. Its animation time adjusted for server ticks is 1.716s.
With +95% recharge in it, that's 200.2/(46 + 1.716) = 4.2 base damage per second. Assuming a +375% damage buff from full AaO, +95% damage slotting and using BU with SC (same timer), that's 15.75 damage per second to one target.
Max is 16.
Total damage : 15.75 * 16 * 0.95 = 239.4 per second.
That's right, in pure damage Shield Charge is better than damage auras with SOs, in a scenario where damage auras would be in the same set as AaO and would have ten targets in range at all time. That means no travel time at all and nothing at more than 8 feet, ever, compared to SC which only needs the targets in range for a few seconds every 46. That also means for Blazing Aura you'd have to have new mobs jumping in everytime the previous mobs die, otherwise the damage figures would be lower.
Again for emphasis : this is the absolute best case scenario for Blazing Aura. Such conditions actually CAN'T happen in real gameplay for Blazing Aura ; we're comparing theorycraftland Blazing Aura to real CoH gameplay SC, and SC still does ~23% more damage. We're not considering the AoE KD SC gets, we're not considering the greater radius SC has, it's just pure damage and SC wins. Period.
[Edit : Against +2s/+3s, SC needs one Accuracy SO to stay at 95% tohit with BU ; removing one damage SO, as removing recharge SOs would decrease the damage more than that due to the absence of Hasten.
Final damage : 4.2 * 3.42 * 16 * 0.95 = 218.3
Much closer to the hypothetical BA, but still significantly better.
[Against +4s, two Accuracy SOs ; down to one damage SO, as with BU and AaO it's still more efficient than removing recharge.]
Final damage : 4.2 * 3.09 * 16 * 0.95 = 197.2
"Ahah", I hear you say. "SC isn't that much better than BA afterall".
Well, yes and no. We're talking about hypothetical BA fueled by AaO that hits 10 targets at all time in a 8' radius, and against +4s... Oh, look at that. BA can't keep a 95% tohit chance against +4s on SOs.
39% chance to hit base, goes to 76% with 3 accuracy SOs.
Total damage : 20.43 * 10 * 0.76 = 155.3
Still far below alright. /Edit]
2/
Now using IOed out values, still under the impossible assumption that Blazing Aura will have ten targets in range at all times. Assuming Hasten is a few seconds away from perma, giving SC and BU an averaged 30s recharge time, with +15% damage bonus from sets.
Blazing Aura : 6.88
Damage mod : 1 (base) + 0.95 (enhancements) + 0.33 (BU on a 30s timer) + 0.80 (maxed AaO) + 0.15 (set bonuses) = 3.23
Final damage = 6.88 * 3.23 * 10 = 222.2 per second.
Shield Charge : 200.2 / (30 + 1.716) = 6.31
Damage mod : 1 (base) + 0.95 (enhancements) + 1 (BU) + 0.80 (maxed AaO) + 0.15 (set bonuses) = 3.9
Final damage = 6.31 * 3.9 * 16 = 393.7 per second.
Best case scenario for Blazing Aura when comparing IOed out builds, SC does ~77% more damage.
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That should be enough, for that particular argument. Now I'm just going to run numbers based on my own experience, playstyle and datamining, which can be completely different for other people so I'm not using this as a data point.
3/
Same IOed out values as above, assuming "realistic" situations for me :
- Blazing Aura hits 5 targets on average, as opposed to the potential max being 10.
- Shield Charge hits 12 targets on average, as opposed to the potential max being 16. AaO still gets all 10 targets.
- Travel time takes 10% of the total time (killing groups in 27 seconds, taking 3 seconds to go to the next group, for example). That's time during which BA doesn't do damage.
Blazing Aura : 6.88
Damage mod : 1 (base) + 0.95 (enhanc) + 0.33 (BU 30s) + 0.15 (set bonuses) + 0.41 (Fiery Embrace on a 60s timer) = 3.51
Final : 6.88 * 3.51 * 5 * 0.9 (10% of the time is spent traveling) = 108.63 damage per second.
SC : 6.31
Damage mod : 3.9 (same as before, nothing changes in that regard)
Final : 6.31 * 3.9 * 12 = 295.3 damage per second.
Making SC do 272% as much damage as Blazing Aura over time.
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In conclusion, SC is stronger. Even if you don't consider the KD. Even if you don't consider the radius. Even if you use SOs. Even if you're comparing it to a hypothetical powerset that has AaO on top of a damage aura, in a hypothetical situation where that damage aura hits ten targets at all times in a 8' radius.
When you actually consider the KD, the greater radius, the advantage of burst over DPS here and the fact that SC is in the Shield powerset, yes, SC is most definitely overpowered. -
ElM is good for teams with AoE damage and KD.
Regen is... Uh. Well suited to survive alpha strikes and keep going even on SOs, I suppose ? I mean, it's a great set, but I don't see anything team specific in it (as opposed to the aggro auras in WP, Invul and Shield, debuffs auras in WP and Shield, def buff in Shield, damage auras in Fire, DA and Elec). I guess you could use the extra end to pick leadership toggles.
I'm sure the combo can work, I just believe there's better options around. 6/10 is how I'd rate ElM/Regen as well. -
^ Same as above, except I didn't get Taunt.
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Heh. Thanks for sharing.
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Quote:I believe I wasn't one of those people. I was wrong. Mea culpa.Originally Posted by Werner
I believe I was one of those people. I was wrong. Mea culpa.
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The toxic patches jaegers and snipers do is auto-hit. Other than that, they have normal accuracy... I think ? It always felt like the jaeger melee attack hit more often than usual, but I never bothered to check.
Of course, there's also Vengeance everytime a lieutenant dies. Let that stack three times and it'll be like you have no defense.
Anytime you wonder about something like that, the easiest way to check is to put tohit rolls in a separate chat tab and look at it closely after the fight is done. -
Invulnerability has 50% resistance to defense debuffs (which is in the top three IIRC) and is a powerset with good layered mitigation, changing invincibility to +res would be a drastic and unwarranted nerf.
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Quote:
the 17-year-old resident Quote:The question [...] Multiply 90 by 2, divide by 6 and multiply by 12. Heh.Quote:"I was not surprised with the question being simple, although I did ask for help to make sure I would not lose out on the prize," Abdul-Baki said in an e-mail interview. "I mean, everyone could make mistakes." -
I'm not sure how would you make a blaster tougher than a FA scrapper unless you built for defense on it - in which case you could do the same on the FA scrapper with better results.
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Quote:Damn right it is. You can bet I'd be rolling a SS/SD the day it went live if the set was ported as is, even without crits.
It's not about theme :P It's about numbers. Let's not kid ourselves.
And as I'd obliterate everything in my path with a scrapper Footstomp at +480% damage, the last thing mobs would hear would be me laughing like a madman thinking about people who said it'd be perfectly balanced.
Here we go again : different AT mods and inherents. Same reason an ElM/SD scrapper is incredibly superior to an ElM/SD brute, same reason ELA brutes are much better than ELA scrappers.Quote:Because if SS is too good for scrappers, then why is it not too good for brutes and tanks?
Rage gives +80% for Brutes and Tankers, it'd give +100% for Scrappers. Brutes operating at ~350% damage (using 75-80% Fury) get to 430% with Rage, a ~23% increase. Tankers operating at ~195% damage get to 275% with Rage, a ~41% increase. Scrappers operating at ~195% damage get to 295% with Rage, a ~51% increase.
Now if you ask me SS is already too good for brutes, I'm just attacking the whole "if a powerset is too good for this AT, it's too good period" logic. This reasoning just doesn't work with AT mods as they are in this game. It's so damn good you see 1 SS brute for 1 any other brute primary really, and you can bet you'd see the same situation or even worse on scrappers with a direct port. Spreadsheet calculations are well and good but ultimately flawed when they don't take into account the ease of use of a 15' radius high damage and knockdown PBAoE on a short timer, along with permanent +40~64% tohit and an extreme damage hitter that also KU and holds. Sure, the rest of the set is meh, sure, the DPS isn't stellar, but ease of use trumps anything and SS have it in spades. -
Quote:SD, not because of anything particular about FM/SD, but rather because SD is the best overall secondary in my opinion.
I'd be interested in knowing: what's your preferred secondary for Fire Melee, and your reasons. Extra points for rationales as to why /FA seems to get skipped over.
As for FA being skipped over, well, it used to be the "more offensive" secondary, but now SD does it better, with better mitigation as well. I've heard people disliking FA because they feel it's too squishy, too.