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Posts
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Quote:Can't speak for him, but ran an Apex 2 days ago with :
How long did it take your team to finish?
How many deaths did you suffer?
Did you earn an Mo badge that run?
Fire/SS tanker (me)
Inv/SS tanker
Elec/Elec tanker
Fire/SS tanker (friend)
SS/SD brute (friend)
DM/inv brute (friend)
Rad/MM blaster (friend, his first time on the TF)
Ill/Cold controller
23 minute completion time ; my average completion time is usually between 17 and 22 minutes.
About a dozen deaths ; usually I see about twice as many deaths. That would be a point for the meleers, but honestly who cares about deaths?
No MO, we're not RPers. Again, I don't see what that has to do with anything. All you have to do to get the MO is fight below the stairs, and the other badges I don't even know the requirements for because I never managed to *not* get them. So melee or ranged doesn't play a part.
Bottomline, on the only metric that matters, that team was about 3 minutes slower than average. I'm pretty sure I would have spent more than 3 additional minutes recruiting if I went all elitist and turned down the tankers. Even if you want to argue this doesn't matter in a hypothetical situation where you're given a choice between ATs... How is going ~15% slower being "marginalized"? Frankly, if you care about differences that tiny, I wonder how do you cope with playing melee ATs at all, as there's a much, much wider gap in many situations. Hell, if we're talking solo performance you can routinely see 50% performance gaps *within the same AT* with different powersets, let alone different ATs.
Now I can see something potentially coming : "oh, but you had a cold and a MM blaster, they kept perma -regen on BM!". No, just no. As I said, the blaster was doing this for his first time and he spent a fair amount of the final fight dead. I think he hit BM maybe once with DP, that's about it. The cold was admittedly doing a fine job at, well, being a cold, but if you want to argue he did all the work, I'm just going to laugh.
I'm no hypocrit, given availability I will pick buff/debuff ATs before anything else. This is just what I do for everything, not Apex especially. I can even understand people who dislike Apex or want specific ATs because it's too hard for them otherwise - but you say yourself you don't have a problem with that and that you're a minmaxer. With that it's really hard to take your posts for anything but some guy who loves melee ATs specifically and is very subjective when he argues anything regarding overall balance.
To be fair with the bad points, I think people who argue meleers are just as fine as ranged in Apex to be equally biaised and silly. Melee ATs will operate at less than their full efficiency in the BM fight, even if it's 80%, 90% or even 95%, it won't be 100%. It technically can't be, unless you've got a truckload of +regen and heals directed your way I guess, but then that means someone else is wasting their potential healing you. So, one can't really make the "melee = ranged against BM" argument without implicitely saying meleers are overpowered in the rest of the game, and in that case you should go and say it directly. Of course, it does sound very silly when phrased that way.
In the end... Just like everywhere else in the game, the difference in player skill, build investment, etc. from player to player will be magnitudes bigger than the difference between a melee AT and a ranged AT. It's likely more time was spent arguing in this topic than the difference between a full melee team and a full ranged team would be over a hundred Apex TFs. -
Even by playing normally, you can become rich very quickly, all it takes is a lucky drop or two. I've had a friend (who admittedly is experienced with the game, but isn't the sort to only play in a minmaxed way) who came back a week ago, joined us on a team to do a TF, got an apoc dam/rech/acc - right away, that's 800M on the market.
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So many ways I could reply, each of them ending up with you in tears and begging a mod to erase my posts again. It was entertaining once, but I'm done with you now, sorry. You'll have to live your little fantasy on your own.
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I've got a Fire/Cold and like it a lot. I strongly disagree with Cold being relatively less interesting than it used to be ; back before inherent fitness, if you skipped Stamina, you also skipped Hurdle, which killed your unsuppressed movement. Big no-no for me. On top of that, with the Alpha Slot, it's much easier to get Hasten and HL perma or close to it without making defense sacrifices. Honestly, I went from a Mids build (in I17 or so) that made so many compromises in some areas that I never got around to actually build the character ingame, to a build that has everything I wanted and more. Fire/, attacking at full speed, will consume enough endurance to require HL, and with Sleet and occasionally HL you've got great res debuffing buffing great damage further. Arctic Fog helps with defense. Benumb helps with -regen. Shields/frostworks are great for teams. When I look at Cold, I see everything I could want in a secondary - except a PBAoE heal.
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Quote:I haven't even considered purple patch in that number - I was just talking about AV resistances. Slows are also reduced to ~2/3 effectiveness against +3s.
Is that 90% against level shifted toons also? -
If you're on SOs, I think Spiritual would be arguably even better than it would be on an IOed out build. There's little chance you're already ED capped for recharge on most of your powers, so you're going to get a full 33% boost on many powers from just the common one.
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Quote:I somehow completely missed you also slotted psi res with impervium armor. Oops.
I do feel a little uneasy about having ZERO psionic resistance. In your experience, does this really make a difference at all? I don't know what psi attacks come that don't fall under melee/ranged/aoe... but I know there are a few. I suppose 12% resistance isn't much to begin with, but just wondering what your experiences might be with this?
Psi attacks that ignore positional defense are mostly the mind control and illusion control type. So, Dominate (mostly seen with rikti mesmerists/mentalists), Blind (carnie illusionists). Other than that... Well, nothing else comes to mind, but I could be forgetting things.
I've played with 0% psi res and 15% psi res extensively on my DB/inv scrapper. I won't lie to you, in places where it matters (carnie missions, for example) the difference was rather obvious. I think you have a little leeway with that seeing as you get a fast recharging AoE KD in Foot Stomp and a hold in KO Blow, not to mention Brute perma-DP giving you tremendously high hit points. Your build was pretty good to start with and starting from that, it's hard to have net gains without losing something - but I think psi is rare enough compared to other damage that overall, you'd see a benefit. Matter of fact, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is very soon as I plan to respec into a 3% psi res build (just the global +3% res from the PVP IO) on the aforementioned scrapper, as to focus on other things.
Quote:Also, with i20 just around the corner, I'm thinking of going Nerva for my second slot. With the defenses, I get completely soft capped at 5 enemies. -
Hey Another_Fan, long time no see. Say, do you remember the name of that guy who went and cried to a moderator because I hurt his feelings by pointing out his posting habits were casting some doubts on some claims he made about his real life? Anyway, I'm sure that's the last time we'll ever hear of him, because he wouldn't follow Obitus or me in unrelated forum topics after he complained about me supposedly stalking him, that would be too ironic.
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Back to the grownup discussion.
Quote:Point taken. I missed the obliterations in Burn when I took a look at it, and now that I take another look at it I see he has some Scirocco Dervishes in there - whiskey tango foxtrot, by the way. I thought these were multistrikes, that would have made sense for the cheap aspect. Scirocco I really don't see the point. Around 1 billion, 1 billion 200m seems more like it.But hey, I accept that it's possible to buy the build for under 1 billion. I don't accept that it's as easy as his comment might lead you to believe, though. Even if we assume 100 million for the LoTGs and the Miracle recipes, and 60 for the Numina, then (including salvage and crafting costs) we're looking at about 700 million total just for those seven IOs (106 * 6 + 66 = 702 million). The rest of the build is very cheap comparatively speaking, but 300 million's cutting it a little close. (The Obliterations and Steadfast unique will probably take up the bulk of that 300 million.)
You have to be a bargain hunter to get comfortably under a billion. If you want to assemble the build in one sitting, you're more likely looking at nearly double that price. Not that it's a big deal either way if you're very interested in farming, but it is what it is.
Quote:Mine is a SS/Fire/Soul and isn't just a farming build. Personally, I wouldn't make a build just for farming when you can make an all around build that is just as good at it.
Not saying you're wrong in saying you can do as fast mind you, I suspect you're a better player than I am. Just wanted to give my own take on the same thing.
The difference would seem bigger on paper, but a gapless Burn FS EF BL chain ends up more often than not with one of the powers unused whenever you have to use FE, Hasten or insps, whereas with Soul, lacking an EF equivalent, you always have that room. -
Having a second look at it, I think you should really consider the Spiritual Alpha. Quick build and explanations follow.
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You would recover 2.53 end per second from recovery, plus, on average, 0.72 from perf shifter procs (3 procs, each giving you 12 end when it procs thanks to your high max end). So let's say 3.25eps on average - a bit optimistic admittedly, sometimes it would be higher and sometimes lower.
Now say you're attacking at full speed, nonstop. The best general purpose attack chain I can make out with your attacks would be Foot Stomp, Haymaker, KO Blow, Haymaker, Punch, repeat. It would be almost gapless and use up a total of 39.272 end in about 9 seconds and a half. That's a 4.13 endurance consumption per second, before recovery.
Your net consumption would be 4.13 - 3.25 = 0.88.
Starting from max end, it would take you 122.77/0.88 = 139 seconds to bottom out, and that's assuming you'd fight nonstop. Let's say 2 minutes (seeing as procs will sometimes not proc as often as you'd want them to). That's still a hefty amount of time when you consider that's fighting standing still, not moving for a second - as soon as you move, like say from one mob to another, you don't attack and recover more end. From my experience with these kinds of net consumption, two minutes from top to bottom is usually fine for anything that isn't AV soloing.
I didn't add Rage crashes, but here's the fun part. Your endurance recovery is so high you would actually recover more end during the crash than what you lost, assuming you don't attack and just taunt.
Based on that I think going with the Spiritual Alpha would really be the smart choice for you here, not to mention it also improves Dull Pain's healing/maxHP and the regen you get from Health. -
Quote:I like you already.
I do use Unstoppable from time to time.
Honestly, I don't think you could get perma-DP without a total rebuild, and at the cost of some defenses. Most obvious way that I can think of would be to go for the Spiritual Alpha and put more emphasis on endurance reduction and recovery (although you already have quite a lot).
Looking at your build (which seemed pretty good already), I thought you were overslotted
- for accuracy ; with just a single Rage, even Punch and Haymaker are at 95% tohit against level 54s (partly thanks to the level shift)
- and for endurance recovery ; even once I removed many of the recovery sets, you still recover 2.8 end per second, and no attack chain that I can make with your powers can drain that much, including Rage/Hasten crashes and all.
With that perspective, I made some tweaks :
Code:| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1439;717;1434;HEX;| |78DA6D94DD52DA5010C74F20484150282A7E01220A8A1A61EA759D69D5193F502C3| |36DA7374C5A8E2436462604A7DEF5197AD38BF6B29F2FD1EFF609DA8768676CFB06| |71B37BA4712833E477B26777CF7FF79C9CCAA3B508638F5799D47FD350DBEDFA0DA| |B63F3E0AE6A772CD508ED9D70ABC1555B0B32C6C671AE5EE106E74AADD3E256BD66| |5BDC6CDA5A8AA6D6F80137DB5CD9344F3A86C92DF5BE6EE8F6697CD3D43838DACAC| |520523D3E36941DAEB674B319C6975A8BF34614871B7A53B36162F0C2ABC1ADB6A6| |B7C6D65BFA03651D12374FEB15B56D73EB94048F82BC22FCA725267E8E9F555D03F| |3ED23FA6E212235C43BD7057D1DC6923048B19C242C102A5D0A952F85BE87A79F42| |FD7E77BD0293D38870063190457C008F00E593037B602AB3BE6D44B88A18A82062B| |B88597806C93D103C60AEE94A93A021628788C9EF3E576DE1076204424224460A0D| |63A29921C434CCF4D38CAF7F0143C7096942121CA2B4208B4EF85DD327781914A50| |D524D59AA294B35CD50BD0578C6B1594E20FEC2E7865E7D497885987F8D587C8358| |7A8BF80CFE09A128B18222474A88D132E2234C0D0B87E1FF39482039295A9ADCC2A| |4D96D5A701751DC2154107E701F13E58C5139E354CEE4A572BE80C78484E5C81331| |5C29474DCC514BE79F41BE042B3E47C890362564A6C83D4D7E698A9A8767466C65C| |6C4664F1D138E083F71F372BF682BCF105FBBC7D7F14D53DA3CA5CD53DA6F30352B| |0EE82CD551A00216A99CC5294428CED89C38DB7353B8601E5E1784A2058D3645271| |C22961F120C44F9081181448A48A43C45531C6A2F0991251259267565D2BA1F768F| |223A38773CE3BB9EF13DCF7852EE7EB070C1A0D8A2D7E4C08F957A2CE51ECBB51EC| |B4A8F6543EE7EF5CE8E77368B0B57E5EE0DC024FA48CE40AA245A202DA1E9CF3F93| |4FBA8E57477E0B1BBF7C1B5BF0DB1B3387317FBD31B425434FB0A143D4D7500C2E1| |55ADA594D8045A83C07AE5EDB4F| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Quote:The prices on these have been dipping a fair bit lately. As recipes, numina procs can be bought for about 60-80m, Miracles and LoTGs +rech for ~100m in just a few days. Add a few millions in salvage for each, of course. I don't think it's unreasonable for him to say that this build could be built with less than a billion.
The Lucks of the Gambler and Miracle/Numina procs alone will cost you anywhere from 1-1.5 billion if you're interested in buying them anytime soon.
Of course, that's about the only thing I agree with in his post, but how can I fight against such wit and wisdom. Nihihilbiilaaargh is certainly happy to hear Vengeance doesn't refresh, an amazing discovery! -
Quote:A level 54 AV has something like 90% resistance to slows. As far as I know, only Siphon Speed (unresistable) and Heat Loss (enormous base value) will significantly slow her, and I never had any trouble getting her out of the patch with perma-LR and Sleet on her.
Also consider some of the best debuffs in the game--LR, Benumb, aforementioned FR, Sleet & Tar Patch--already slow her to a degree where taunting her out of the patches will take a bit more time anyway. -
Most AVs only have boss resistance to immobilizes, stacking just two will work. With MG being ~18s duration base, it can stack by itself even on a +4 AV (and if you're levelshifted, BM is just +3 to you anyway).
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Quote:This is just a poor stone tanker. Properly slotted granite gives about 80% toxic res (which is, incidentally, equal to stacking healing flames four times). My scrappers (resistance cap : 75%, and of course lower HP than a tanker) take on the pylons in melee with sturdies. A stone tanker on SOs, with Rooted and EE up, should be able to stand still for a good minute or two near an Apex pylon.
I have watched stoners that solo tank the STF die in the sewers of Apex. -
You can get up to 80% now, with the Cardiac Alpha and PVP IO. Admittedly that's only 5% more, but at these levels of resistance, each % add significantly more. Someone who wanted to push this further could also use the Gladiator (melee) sets, although of course that'd involve less room for defense. There's also Call to Arms that isn't too shabby if you happen to have a pet.
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Enjoyable read. Nothing to say really, just wanted to voice my appreciation.
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I can see the maxHP and heal being very useful on my widow, without changing her build. It's really the only thing she's missing. Resistance is nice too of course, but as you say it's likely many will pick Barrier, so with some luck it could be the best of both worlds on teams.
Banes could get more interesting with Lore, seeing as they can stack -60% res rather easily on a single target. I've never seen Call Reinforcements to be that useful, because they tend to run in melee and die, but the Lore pets, thanks to MM commands, are much more survivable and stay at range when told to do so. -
I'm sure of it, had the Fury proc since I13 (if that's the correct issue) went Live and already had an Achilles Heel. Damage gets very nice when it happens to stack.
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What Rhysem said is true, but applies to DM only for this particular combo.
Invul, is more powerful on a brute thanks to the higher base HP, higher HP cap (the +HP of Dull Pain is partially wasted on an IOed out scrapper) and higher resistance cap (Unstop or even regular S/L resists can be wasted on an IOed out scrapper again).
Regardless of your AT choice, both are very survivable alts capable of dishing some serious ST damage. If you want more damage, go scrapper, if you want more survivability, go brute. -
I don't see much point in immobilizing/holding her - if you're quick on your feet, you can reliably get her out of any blue patch in just a few seconds, which is more often than not much faster than to wait it out.
Now the issue is that it can go wrong if done poorly, i.e. if the guy who has aggro on her just steps back 20 feet and stands still for a good 10-15 seconds waiting for her to come. First, she's likely to just stand her ground and shoot with her crossbow, and second, there's a higher likelyhood (than if the guy was moving) that one blue patch will appear where the guy with aggro is standing and luring BM to. If you grab aggro and jump about 100-120 feet away though, I've never seen her fail to move instantly.
Edit: when you put it that way Aliana, it's difficult to disagree. Two different strategies, each of them the most efficient for different teams. -
See, that's better. All dodges and no direct reply to anything I've said, and no more putting words in my mouth that are the opposite of what I actually said. That's an argument I can actually walk away from, and you can consider yourself the winner.
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Oh, so you were actually trying to be funny while not understanding a word of what I said. Heh.
I don't know why are you still trying to insinuate I suggested someone should slot SOs or common IOs and avoid sets when I not only clearly said I wasn't suggesting that, but did that in my first post as well.
Let's take the full post and bold the relevant parts for people who have trouble reading more than one sentence at once.
Quote:Surprise, surprise, that's exactly what Obitus says in a different way as he explains "Often, you can find a set that does both jobs for you; sometimes you can't."Personally, I enhance core powers individually first and foremost, and then and only then, care about getting some set bonuses. The difference between, say, 80% recharge and 130% recharge in set bonuses isn't that large when you consider you also have 70% recharge from Hasten, 32% from the Spiritual Core and 80-90% from recharge slotting in the specific power.
This isn't to say you can't do both, but I see many builds on the boards who lose tremendous efficiency in certain important areas due to a focus on some particular goal, be it softcap def or X% recharge, so I think it's worth saying.
Nobody ever mentioned or cared about the ride to 50, the person that asked the question had a level 50 DM/Fire brute already and asked how should a /Fire brute should be slotted for farming (not a SS/Fire/Mu specifically, I guess you were so busy trying to be funny you didn't have time to read that part either).
SO slotting is, frankly, poor for individual stats compared to basic frankenslotting, and downright terrible compared to highend IO slotting, as pretty much anyone with more than two weeks of experience in this game can tell you. Slotting Foot Stomp with 2 ACC, 3 DAM and 1 RECH SO is nowhere near as efficient as slotting it with an Armageddon set including the fire proc, and the force feedback proc, giving the power 33% more end reduction, 60% more recharge, 35 more damage per target and a high chance for +100% recharge during 5 seconds over the above SO slotting. If you consider that SO slotting "having the bases covered", then yes, you're the kind of person that indeed needs the advice I gave.
The whole "thing X works just fine, anything else just makes it faster" argument is completely nonsensical in a discussion that is centered about how to get the maximum rewards in the smallest amount of time. You can solo your way to level 50 on -1/x1 with unslotted Brawl, never picking any power too, and anything else just makes it faster.
I never suggested you shouldn't get set bonuses, and again that can be seen in my very first post if one actually reads it. Obligatory bolding for the reading impaired again :
Quote:Personally, I enhance core powers individually first and foremost, and then and only then, care about getting some set bonuses. The difference between, say, 80% recharge and 130% recharge in set bonuses isn't that large when you consider you also have 70% recharge from Hasten, 32% from the Spiritual Core and 80-90% from recharge slotting in the specific power.
The truth is you're throwing a giant tantrum about me supposedly making an useless post that takes all of four lines of text... And then proceed to rant about it for pages, while also showing you actually needed that advice. You talk and ask about things that are incredibly obvious to most of us, throw imaginary and wrong numbers after you've been yelling at people in the know for giving their "opinion" when they lay down the facts, and tell us all about your super awesome brute - that sure seems like useful information there.
Do I even need to conclude? If I had to wager a guess, I'd bet you aren't actually that dense and understood you misread what I said partway through, but have so big of an ego you won't back down. If you want to keep looking silly, by all means please do so, but if you keep claiming I make arguments I never did, I will keep replying and show you for the fool you are. -
I'll echo Crab. Many powersets can solo +1/x8 (infact, I can't think of anything that can't), but Crabs are one of the easiest to play - passive, layered mitigation close to scrapper levels, pets dealing damage for you and good AOE ranged damage.
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Well you know, seeing as you managed to confuse "focus on your core powers first" with the alpha slot, I'd rather not make too many assumptions about what you can and can't understand ; but I'm glad to be proved wrong this time.
So, hey, funny joke. Ha ha. Lol, smiley face. There you go!