Top of the line claws attack chains...


BrandX

 

Posted

I know the most frequently seen claws chain is FU>Focus>Slash.

I also have heard of FU>Eviscerate>Focus.

In terms of raw damage, the first chain is superior, but it has higher recharge requirements.
Both chains can hold a -res proc. The second chain can hold 3 purple procs instead of 2.

Seeing as with the second chain I can use the musculature alpha rather than the spiritual, any number crunchers able to do a real comparison? (Factoring in double stacked FU, -res, procs, etc.)

Also, does an attack just have to be initiated while FU is up for it to apply a bonus, or does it have to still be up when the attack is completed?

Thanks in advance


 

Posted

Also, is the gaussian's chance for build up worth slotting in FU, or is the bonus insignificant?


 

Posted

I calculated the Eviscerate Chain being within 2 DPS of the Slash chain using my DPS template build (215 vs. 217), and that was with +296% recharge into Follow Up. If you can get Musculature in the Eviscerate chain, my guess is that it's the winner. Higher recharge may, of course, be useful for other things.

The attack only needs to be initiated during the buff. However, as I recall, the Follow Up buff takes effect 0.5 second after you initiate the attack, which is to say before the Follow Up power itself completes. That's one "problem" with the Slash chain, as it puts Slash just 0.06 seconds away from having 3 Follow Ups buffing it, assuming I did the math right way back when, and that I'm reading it correctly now.

As I recall, the Gaussian in Follow Up is approximately equal to a regular damage proc. I'd rather slot a Gaussian set somewhere and just use a damage proc. But my memory isn't that great.


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Thanks for the reply, Werner. I figured they were close enough that it wouldn't really matter much. While I've got you though, would it be possible to run a chain using slash AND eviscerate for double -res goodness? Would it be worth it DPS wise?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motley_Cruel View Post
Thanks for the reply, Werner. I figured they were close enough that it wouldn't really matter much. While I've got you though, would it be possible to run a chain using slash AND eviscerate for double -res goodness? Would it be worth it DPS wise?
I'm not Werner but that chain is what I was planning on when I was toying with a claws/regen. Lemme try to find it.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator View Post
So I looked through the forum and saw that Bill Z Bubba listed several chains for claws when MunkiLord asked for them. I rather like the second one and if my math is correct my build should be able to pull it off.

I think the chain I'd like to run is Follow-Up, Slash, Eviscerate.

I procced out both Slash and Evis because everyone likes more damage I was actually somewhat surprised to see how relatively cheap the Glad Fury proc is.
and here's the post I referred to:
Claws chains


 

Posted

Wait wait wait ....

Are you saying (Werner and others) that

FU-Evis-Slash

is going to do better DPS than

FU-Focus-Slash

at less recharge?

And this requires the Glad Armor -RES in Evis and what n slash (maintain the -RES achilles)?

Or that the chain should be FU-Evis-Focus?

This is news to me. I just busted my chops to get enough recharge to run FU-Focus-Slash on my brute (see Pylon thread near the last posts).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite Agent View Post
Wait wait wait ....

Are you saying (Werner and others) that

FU-Evis-Slash

is going to do better DPS than

FU-Focus-Slash

at less recharge?

And this requires the Glad Armor -RES in Evis and what n slash (maintain the -RES achilles)?

Or that the chain should be FU-Evis-Focus?

This is news to me. I just busted my chops to get enough recharge to run FU-Focus-Slash on my brute (see Pylon thread near the last posts).
In this case, AT matters

Claws Brutes don't get the bonus +15% chance for a crit that Eviscerate has

/wrists


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite Agent View Post
Wait wait wait ....
Are you saying (Werner and others) that
FU-Evis-Slash
is going to do better DPS than
FU-Focus-Slash
at less recharge?
And this requires the Glad Armor -RES in Evis and what n slash (maintain the -RES achilles)?
Or that the chain should be FU-Evis-Focus?
This is news to me. I just busted my chops to get enough recharge to run FU-Focus-Slash on my brute (see Pylon thread near the last posts).
Note the conditions of the comparison - Eviscerate with Musculature vs. Slash with Spiritual. Since I compared Eviscerate at +274% to Slash at +296%, that means the Eviscerate chain would actually be HARDER to get the recharge for, not easier.

Let's see, what should I put the Slash chain at for a "fair" comparison... 274% + 32.25% = 306.25%. That brings the Slash chain for this particular build up to 221 DPS. Oh, even better because it gets another Follow Up on Slash itself. Now we're at 229 DPS.

Calculating the other chain instead of just guessing, tier 4 Musculature adds +32.25% base damage. Plugging that in, I get 235 DPS. So better, but only by a small margin, and I suspect that Spiritual is more generally useful to most builds.

And as Rad Avenger says, archetype matters. Not only do we not get criticals on Brutes, but there's a much higher percentage of damage coming from buff instead of base damage, which means that Musculature is less useful. So chances seem good that the Slash chain is better on the Brute, though that's not a calculation, just a guess. Still, even calculations are only just good guesses, in that they depend on build assumptions that won't likely match anyone's specific build.

(Edit: Oh, and it's Follow Up -> Eviscerate -> Focus.)


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

How would FU - Slash - Evis - Repeat be?

You could have Slash and Evis 5 slotted with a Purple set, and both have a -Resist Proc in them.

FU could then likely have 1 damage Proc in it at the very least.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
How would FU - Slash - Evis - Repeat be?
My guess is that it'll be behind since it starts out at a 7% base DPS penalty, which seems like it would be rather hard for -resist and purple procs to make up for. Maybe I can look at it in more detail later. This particular DPS comparison is using a template build that I'd need to adjust for each attack chain, and then I have to check the proc chances for each attack, so it's a bit involved.


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Note the conditions of the comparison - Eviscerate with Musculature vs. Slash with Spiritual. Since I compared Eviscerate at +274% to Slash at +296%, that means the Eviscerate chain would actually be HARDER to get the recharge for, not easier.

Let's see, what should I put the Slash chain at for a "fair" comparison... 274% + 32.25% = 306.25%. That brings the Slash chain for this particular build up to 221 DPS. Oh, even better because it gets another Follow Up on Slash itself. Now we're at 229 DPS.

Calculating the other chain instead of just guessing, tier 4 Musculature adds +32.25% base damage. Plugging that in, I get 235 DPS. So better, but only by a small margin, and I suspect that Spiritual is more generally useful to most builds.

And as Rad Avenger says, archetype matters. Not only do we not get criticals on Brutes, but there's a much higher percentage of damage coming from buff instead of base damage, which means that Musculature is less useful. So chances seem good that the Slash chain is better on the Brute, though that's not a calculation, just a guess. Still, even calculations are only just good guesses, in that they depend on build assumptions that won't likely match anyone's specific build.

(Edit: Oh, and it's Follow Up -> Eviscerate -> Focus.)
Is "the Slash chain" FU->Focus->Slash?

Or are you saying "the Slash chain" is one with Slash & Evis?

I'm asking because in my brute's tests of FU-Focus-Slash, you only get the 3rd FU on Focus -- it doesn't last through slash afaik.

It is striking me that the Brute fury nerf really hit harder than folks think if now Brutes are lagging 20-25dps behind scraps (similar builds)? Plus scraps are burstier due to crits. Hmnnn.

Last night, running a relatively seamless FU-Focus-Slash chain, I only pulled about 195dps on my brute. That's with explosive strike and armageddon procs in Focus, heca's inc proc in FU, and the -RES in Slash. Started fight at close to 75% fury, used Aid Self once, and had about a 3-cycle downtime after hasten wore off (filled with shockwave).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motley_Cruel View Post
While I've got you though, would it be possible to run a chain using slash AND eviscerate for double -res goodness? Would it be worth it DPS wise?
No. Even if you could get them to fire at the same time, it wouldn't work.

The Achilles' Heel -RES proc, the Fury of the Gladiator -RES proc and Tanker Bruising all do the same thing; rather than apply a -RES debuff, they grant the target a short duration autopower that applies the debuff and is flagged "Does not stack from same caster". All three sources grant the same autopower, and since the target is the caster of that auto, even if you had multiple sources stacking dozens of -RES procs/bruising effects on a single target, it would never be debuffed more than once (from those sources. Debuffs from elsewhere, like sonic blast, would still stack normally). All you would accomplish is extending the duration of the debuff when they stacked, and increase the likelyhood of getting a new debuff up if the proc didn't fire often enough.


@Roderick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick View Post
No. Even if you could get them to fire at the same time, it wouldn't work.

The Achilles' Heel -RES proc, the Fury of the Gladiator -RES proc and Tanker Bruising all do the same thing; rather than apply a -RES debuff, they grant the target a short duration autopower that applies the debuff and is flagged "Does not stack from same caster". All three sources grant the same autopower, and since the target is the caster of that auto, even if you had multiple sources stacking dozens of -RES procs/bruising effects on a single target, it would never be debuffed more than once (from those sources. Debuffs from elsewhere, like sonic blast, would still stack normally). All you would accomplish is extending the duration of the debuff when they stacked, and increase the likelyhood of getting a new debuff up if the proc didn't fire often enough.
:O Wait. Wait. I thought they just didn't stack from the same proc.

The different procs, AH/Gladiator/Bruise Effect, don't stack with each other at all?!


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

The Achilles Heel proc and the Fury of Gladiator proc stack with each other.

I never bothered to check Bruising, but I have no reason to believe it doesn't stack with Achilles and Fury.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite Agent View Post
Is "the Slash chain" FU->Focus->Slash?

Or are you saying "the Slash chain" is one with Slash & Evis?

I'm asking because in my brute's tests of FU-Focus-Slash, you only get the 3rd FU on Focus -- it doesn't last through slash afaik.

It is striking me that the Brute fury nerf really hit harder than folks think if now Brutes are lagging 20-25dps behind scraps (similar builds)? Plus scraps are burstier due to crits. Hmnnn.

Last night, running a relatively seamless FU-Focus-Slash chain, I only pulled about 195dps on my brute. That's with explosive strike and armageddon procs in Focus, heca's inc proc in FU, and the -RES in Slash. Started fight at close to 75% fury, used Aid Self once, and had about a 3-cycle downtime after hasten wore off (filled with shockwave).
Is your brute running +306.25% recharge in Follow Up? That's what I was using when I said that Slash should get a triple stack.

"The Slash chain" is Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash.

The calculation here is on a hypothetical Super Reflexes DPS build that sacrifices almost everything else in the pursuit of fairly short term DPS. Real world builds with real world concerns like staying alive and not running out of endurance when fighting a pylon will probably see lower numbers.


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
The Achilles Heel proc and the Fury of Gladiator proc stack with each other.

I never bothered to check Bruising, but I have no reason to believe it doesn't stack with Achilles and Fury.
That's how I thought it was

It's just when two different characters have say the AH Proc, and one triggers the effect, the other player, if they trigger their proc while the first proc is still in play, it won't stack.

The same with Gladiators and Bruising.

It's like the character is buffed with, AH -Resist Buff, so it's doesn't stack, but Gladiator -Resist Buff is a different buff all together.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Is your brute running +306.25% recharge in Follow Up? That's what I was using when I said that Slash should get a triple stack.

"The Slash chain" is Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash.

The calculation here is on a hypothetical Super Reflexes DPS build that sacrifices almost everything else in the pursuit of fairly short term DPS. Real world builds with real world concerns like staying alive and not running out of endurance when fighting a pylon will probably see lower numbers.
Global Recharge at 192.5% (with Hasten).
Follow-up recharge at 123.41% (97.53% slotted, plus Spiritual Total Core alpha slot -- 45% increase to recharge, half ignoring ED)
During pylon run had extra 10% global from Time Lord

So that's 315.91% w/o Time Lord and 325.91% with, right?

As I said, it seemed to me (watching combat stats and trying to time against attack hits) that only Focus got the 3rd stack of FU during chains. Chain was fully seamless as far as I could tell and I was queuing attacks best I could.

Really curious why I'm seeing so much less DPS (195) unless it's a brute thing. Definitely had no problems with endurance during the ~10 mins of the pylon run. Or staying alive.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
The Achilles Heel proc and the Fury of Gladiator proc stack with each other.

I never bothered to check Bruising, but I have no reason to believe it doesn't stack with Achilles and Fury.
OK, I never checked the three different sources against each other, but I was told that they all generated the same non-stacking autopower by someone that I had no reason to doubt. However, if you've tested it (at least in part), I'll take your word on it.


@Roderick

 

Posted

I'm sure of it, had the Fury proc since I13 (if that's the correct issue) went Live and already had an Achilles Heel. Damage gets very nice when it happens to stack.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite Agent View Post
Global Recharge at 192.5% (with Hasten).
Follow-up recharge at 123.41% (97.53% slotted, plus Spiritual Total Core alpha slot -- 45% increase to recharge, half ignoring ED)
During pylon run had extra 10% global from Time Lord

So that's 315.91% w/o Time Lord and 325.91% with, right?
Looks right to me. Not sure why you wouldn't get the triple stack, then. Guess I'm doing something wrong in my calculation.


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Looks right to me. Not sure why you wouldn't get the triple stack, then. Guess I'm doing something wrong in my calculation.

But, to be clear, for a brute (who doesn't get the same benefit from Musculature as a Scrap), you think FU-Focus-Slash remains the top dps chain? I am bummed I can't break 200dps (195 was my best run so far).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite Agent View Post
But, to be clear, for a brute (who doesn't get the same benefit from Musculature as a Scrap), you think FU-Focus-Slash remains the top dps chain? I am bummed I can't break 200dps (195 was my best run so far).
I haven't really done much to be sure, but yes, I would guess that Follow Up -> Focus -> Slash is the best DPS chain for Brutes.


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
The Achilles Heel proc and the Fury of Gladiator proc stack with each other.

I never bothered to check Bruising, but I have no reason to believe it doesn't stack with Achilles and Fury.
It does.

I had an Invuln/DB tank that had Bruising on Nimble Slash and an Achille's proc in Ablating Strike. I confirmed in-game that they do indeed stack with each other.

Fury and Achille's will stack with each other as well. The only thing that won't stack is 2 Achille's or 2 Furys.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.