New Dawn

[ QUOTE ]
Herding and gathering a mob group aint the same thing at all, seriously though i dont think a tank needs to be left alone with the mob first to tank effectively, yes it might make it easier and safer but certainly not needed as the groups not going to be trying to gather so much that the tank (or group) cant handle it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to get a whole group in one place and keep them there when i am maximising the effects i can get out of debuffs. People seem to be oh we need a healer, for me debuffers are great although more so on disciplined teams.

When i look at the figures on herobuilder for mace and compare it to all other sets i'd expect clobber to be an amazing disorient to make up for some lackings.

[ QUOTE ]
As Sundae slowly edges her way to 50, I get to see a lot of supposedly experienced tanks in action. I'm rarely impressed. I'll be on a team that is struggling or suffers a near teamwipe and the call will go out for a tank. He or she will arrive, everyone will breathe a little easier and we'll move onto the next group. Things are easier but one or two people still die, I still have to use my self heal or change to dwarf and yet no one seems to notice.

Is this what people now expect from a tank?

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly dont know, it completely bewilders me. At late levels i tend to stick to people i know alot more or know me alot more for a better gaming experience. A blaster rushing in first doesnt help a tanker gain proper aggro consolidation and there are alot of things team mates can do to make it hard, but by and large, there seems to be a lot of tankers who either dont know what they are doing (well rise to meet certain expectations) or have given up telling people what they can and cant do to help the tank to keep aggro easier or atleast not put the tanker at more risk than he/she can bare. There are some teams where the dynamics are so bad i may as well be playing my scrapper as the opportunity to make things safer before people attack just isnt there and some people refuse to cooperate to make things easier. Three times i have had to ask someone to stop chucking caltrops at my feet. It wasnt until i told them it acts a bit like the fear that you get in burn that they stopped. They stopped because they have a lvl 50 firetanker so they knew what i was on about then, the fact is i was actually playing my firetanker. All i can say is i would hate to see them tank. I certainly dont have high expectations. It seems to be though the level of knowledge of a lvl 50 can be the same as a lvl 10 as far as teamwork goes. (imo teams could be on invincible at lvl 10 but PuGs rarely have that gel to not end up with hospital trips and many people dont build team orientatedly enough).

[ QUOTE ]
Have they listened to all the talk about how much tanks have been nerfed and can't handle aggro and believe this is as good as it gets?

[/ QUOTE ]

Many tankers dont know what their actual limit to taunting numbers is let alone anything else. I have seen lvl 24 invulns running around unyielded, they run in get mezzed and everyone is trying to keep them alive, they level up and pick stealth. Some people just wont listen to advice.

[ QUOTE ]
Are there so few good tanks out there now that this is the reality of having one on the team?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was on a team once with 3 tankers and in the first 5 minutes my non aggroing defender was left to tank. In answer to your question YES. We all on occasion have missed things (late graphics, poor perception, rl distraction breaking concentration etc) but in a small open room?

[ QUOTE ]
I usually get so depressed by the poor displays (and the debt I get) that I'll switch to Faulty and come on to show these youngsters how it's done. Am I the only one that feels sad that people no longer feel safe with a tank on the team?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. There are people that do feel safe with certain people tanking on the team but not all tankers in general. All tankers are very good built and played right. Same for all ATs. I bet the DEV's would hold their heads in their hands watching how some people build and play. I cant wait for that guide to come out for people and all i can say is it better be good.

[ QUOTE ]
Tanks really can't tank safely for a full team until they get SOs and even that can be hit and miss depending on the team and the mobs you're facing

[/ QUOTE ]

On teams where you can tank on your terms you can get all the aggro you want and survive playing with a build made up of TO's. Now in few situations (no defender included "EDIT: perhaps not on invincible against certain damagetypes)" the key factor to help in this is to have people see that any respites, lucks etc they can get can be given to the tanker because they dont need them - totally doable.

[ QUOTE ]
Now they are still the best AT to do it, but without a min/max build or an above average team to support them they can't fulfill that role until SOs ( mid to late 20s for new players ).

[/ QUOTE ]

I kind of agree above average if the average is a typical PuG full of solo artists who have no understanding of other people toons or powers. I dont stay too long in those teams in fact, i now make the teams. Some defenders even look for me when i log on, I stay in debuff areas and taunt whats not in that area. I like having star to keep playing and tanking my way, if someone is messing me about causing more hardship than the team needs and refuses to cooperate i kick them. One person said to me "i dont know why tankers herd its a complete waste of time" - kicked.

[ QUOTE ]
If they won't let you do your job well just make your excuses and leave or just scrank depending on whether you are enjoying yourself or not. Sometime teams don't want you to control all of the aggro.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i am on a team like that i wont team with them, i am either tanking or i am playing another toon, but my must have star now attitude and make my own teams up i just kick anyone not helping.

[ QUOTE ]
Tanks are no longer the center of the universe, good, maybe we'll stop getting these rediculous and condesending 'step back im herding' tanks who believe that the whole team should follow them to the letter then get huffy when it doesnt happen, coz, like, the rest of the team want to play too...

[/ QUOTE ]

I still do the "i will herd to here" but i dont go about getting more than i can actually taunt. I do rely on the teams cooperation, i welcome the changes as it does make other ATs EQUALLY important and team work so much more necessary and i like that. I think i get your post and the scenarios you are relating too and i dont think its infuriating, but tankers can still tank just not so many and not so high a level as before.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think its totally down to the tanks. Nowadays it seems teams wont give you just even 2 secs to consolidate the agro b4 they begin there AoEs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes and then when you try to ask the team to hold off with thier attacks until you have the stuation under control you get nasty comments about how your telling everyone what to do, and in come some abuse playing on the word "tanker" and people saying how i am being bossy and i should just let the team get on with it, this has happened a couple of times to me. Having said that i have had alot of fun with my tank in teams who are prepared to let me do my work first.

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone dont like it they can get off my team i dont want them. I have only have interest in likeminded people, i'm interested in playstyle of the team xp is secondary.

[ QUOTE ]
Leveling up new characters thru 20 i've seen tanks with and without the taunting central role, some are new players who just havent learnt the skill well enough yet to realise how it can work.

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually allowed another tanker to be on my team last night, he had a not very tanker like build but was new to the game so i dont mind so much. Its when the tankers are not new to the game and most likely yet dont have any aggroing ability i wont have them in the same team as me. I had a tell whilst playing my tanker the other day "hi we are 2 tankers can we team with you?" They can kiss my.......

I got a sonic/sonic corrupter lvl 36 but i cant say how good it is because i have no other corrupter to compare it to so i'd be all theory on that one but i am well happy playing one

When i look at the herobuilder though, thermal radiation does look to me as much more powerful than sonic resonance and more useful to have in pvp, but it also seems too much like a repackaged empathy set (of which i have played), so i'd sooner be playing something different anyway.

When you look at damage you have to look at potential dps. I've always had a ball park figure of a defenders attacks being 75% of a blasters in my head without bothering to look into it. My defenders dont even try to be blasters unless i have nothing else to do and as a proactive buffer that is rare.

How much more resilient does a stone tanker need to be? I mean fit it in where what you lose for it dont matter, but i quite like the idea of stonetankers adding presence pool alot more and possibly leaderships.

Too many tankers are played like scrappers early on, till mid level 20's and sometimes 30's and i know some that even hit 50 like that. I dont know why they didnt just make a scrapper.
Tankers can play like tankers off the bat (well invulns could to some extent when taunt was at lvl 4 these types are who now can find out how short a duration and small an aoe gauntlet is using a single target attack). Pre aura and taunt you can be first in at least (even if its more of a blitz). The moment you can get an aura you can herd. The moment you get taunt you can pull of people (without leaving debuff areas) and fully tanking once taunt and aura are both taken. Of course the best shield, heal and status protection should be taken asap before level 10.
Tankers are a support toon there to keep as much of the heat of the rest of the team as possible "old news". You can build a tanking tank from the offset but many other people you are likely to find in PuGs dont also build better toons to portray their archetypes designed role from the start (and not only that "tactics" is a swear word).
For me the game is broken by the people that play it. But I still say set yourself apart from most people and tank straight away, if the team is really bad in supporting you find another one, as they dont deserve you. There are some good players about and you'd want to find them and be with them anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
Just thought I'd give to hit chances for fortified people. This assumes they have slotted one ACC in their powers and the powers are 75% base to hit ( true for 90% of powers ).

Enemy 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7
No Fort: 95 90 81 73 63 54 45 33
0 TH : 95 95 95 95 95 88 78 67
1 TH : 95 95 95 95 95 94 85 73
2 TH : 95 95 95 95 95 95 91 80
3 TH : 95 95 95 95 95 95 95 85

So basically with no to hit buffs you are capping anything up to and including purples minions ( +4s ). I believe that Bosses and Lieutenants are generally as easy to hit as minions of the same level ( not the same colour ).

In light of this I believe that slotting defence is more useful than to hit as the to hit buff of Fortitude is good enough out of the box.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is from unthings post - and i quite like Unthing's posts

I merely said a good tanker "can" keep aggro of all mobs "with" the cooperation of the team. Thats the team allowing the tanker to herd into his aura, and then not using any scatter powers such as rain of fire, freezing rain etc and using attacks that wont cause the enemies to stray from the tanker. How you play most of the time can be acceptable for fun factor and still no team wipes.
Sometimes the spawn numbers means only 10 would stay in the aura anyway but another 5 could be taunted.
The more in the aura the better for me to allow everyone to use their aoes to arrest the group faster rather than each person single targetting mobs with a chance to be owned.
A defender either cant be everywhere at once and perhaps cant aid everyone at once and someone gets it.
I personally like to make the situation where people can debuff without aggro, attack without aggro, not have to be everywhere at once which is why i hate anyone pulling for me, or attacking prematurely and making me do recoveries, i dont see why recoveries ever have to be made (thats when i am in a bad team if i have to do so imho) and i dont like not tanking on my own terms.

Earth epics is gonna be my choice on my stone too.

[ QUOTE ]
I am always nervous around stone tanks because of their relatively poor aggro management. Taunt is a necessity

[/ QUOTE ]

Eake your pick:

Some stone tankers dont slot taunt with enough recharges to overcome the -recharge in granite and to get a 2nd recharged taunt there just as the duration of the 1st taunt runs out.
Some dont give taunt enough duration slots to make taunt last between recharges.
Some dont have taunt.
Some dont slot mudpots for enough taunt duration to cover the autohit taunt pulse. They may slot for damage offering enough gauntlet duration but the damage component isnt autohit.
Some dont have mudpots.
Some dont have mudpots or taunt.
Some have more damage slots in their attacks than recharges and therefore gauntlet less which is a bit more of a problem if there is no mudpots or taunt for the team. Gauntlet only lasts a couple of seconds.
Some stonetankers through feeling immortal trying to aggro the whole room not realising they can most likely only keep 10 taunted which is why the team does battle and gets mullered by the other 30 enemies.
Some stonetankers have enough of everything but dont ask the team to allow them to consolidate aggro first.
Some teamplayers dont care about or dont know the limitations of a stonetanker and can play to make aggro consolidation practically impossible.
You cant save people from moving where they like, people can get get themselves coned or aoe'd through poor positioning.
Some people dont like to wait, to be told where best to stand, they dont like to be helping you as a tanker to help them or told not to use a power that scatters foes from your tanker causing aggro to fall upon them and everyone else. Some people see debt as a step to a new badge and chaos fun.

I am having 2 taunts maybe 3 (presence pool) on my stonetanker. Its not just there to cover the people that dont cooperate by playing in the manner that doesnt suit my tanker. Its to help me with some ideas. There is enough in the primaries and secondaries to keep aggro if slotted well and if the team willingly plays to suit the limitations of the tanker after one has made certain requests ie "no caltrops at the tankers feet pls".

i cant give you tips as all i can see is tanker/science but whilst you are missing with your attacks there is no gauntlet effect so its hard to gain and keep the appropriate share of the aggro that suits you. I dont see how having a healer doesnt help you though i would of thought every little bit helps.

Its probably worth looking into the guides section on this forum.

Poo damaging perma granite tankers are psuedo lazy they do less damage contribution in a team than non perma granite and the mudpots can keep the enemies in one place for everyones aoe goodness. A good tank can play so that no one elses health bar moves with proper team co-operation

i enjoy all the AT's i play them all on and off until one finds a group of people same level to level up with regularly.
I have no interest in having a high 50 count asap as its meaningless to me (although i have some). Its the journey that counts. I could have one of the longest sigs on the forum(if i bothered with sigs) cos i am such an altaholic!

The moment you are able get an aura or a taunt (in the invulns case) tanking should really begin. Status protection asap i strongly advise afterwards.
On all but my invuln i have tanked from lvl 2 or 4 so it is doable plus no debt anyway, (invuln lvl 10). An icetanker should be able to most certainly completely tank frostfire at lvl 6 (other types may need a break free or 2).
As bigboy says it is about simple tactics and cooperation. Teams that just run in and mash dont always help (poorly timed rain of fire, freezing rain, knockbacks into next groups, impatient attacking during herding process, defenders that build a blaster to begin with, caltrops thrown at your feet for a few examples). To be able to tank in your best way to your best often requires cooperation from the rest of the team.
I know i am alot happier, more relaxed and less likely to feel rushed playing with people i am more familiar with as is the case with most people I'd expect.
As you are someone with the other 4 main ATs of good level Kaya you should know alot about their needs of a tanker plus your needs as a tanker to make a good tanker. The many tankers out there with no real aggro managing ability maybe new to the game and/or quite young, lack confidence (possibly with the teams they find to keep them alive in each mob at low level) or couldnt care less (so some excuse).
The only difference in keeping aggro in i6 to previous issues is the fact you cant taunt as many or survive as many as before add to that many people complain about the aggro gaining ability of the stonetankers (especially in granite) they have teamed with but thats down to the stonetankers build and intentions.

Yeah okay that was nice, especially towards the end, not because it was the end though

take temp invuln first its not as bad an end drain as people make out, your base end recovery is way higher, the greater end drain in your attacks should be priority.

my postcard

01) --> Temp Invulnerability==> DmgRes(1) DmgRes(3) DmgRes(3) EndRdx(x)
01) --> Jab==> DisDur(1) DisDur(3) 30% chance to disorient
02) --> Dull Pain==> Rechg(2) Rechg(5) Rechg(45) Heal(45) Heal(46)
04) --> Haymaker==> Dmg(04) Dmg(11) Dmg(11) Rechg(34) Rechg(34) Acc(42)
06) --> Resist Elements==> DmgRes(6) DmgRes(7) DmgRes(15)
08) --> Unyielding==> DmgRes(8) DmgRes(9) DmgRes(15) EndRdx(23)
10) --> Taunt==> Rechg(10)

Without taunt at level 10 as an invulnerability tanker you wont be happily tanking, taking alphas yes, hitting a boss and keeping him occupied yes. Keeping enemies of the team for half decent periods no. Especially with Mr Rain of Fire Blaster 2006.

later)Resist Physical Damage==>DmgRes(x) DmgRes(x) DmgRes(x) as its only 7.5%

temp invuln gives 30% anyway an ice tanker will have much less and still cope on a good team. At the end of the day its a respec build but thats where i would of fitted taunt in.

3 damage resists in unstoppable on top of any other resistant powers that stack? Pass capped i think. I personally think its worth 6 slots though but an end mod in there works well imo. Slotting tohit buffs in invincible gains you very almost next to nothing elsewhere could do a whole lot more.

[ QUOTE ]
[24) --> Taunt
Finally confident enough to tank competently

[/ QUOTE ]

i have a little bit more confidence in finding good team players personally to be tanking confidentally long before (would be level 10 now for me as an ice tanker) but i'd say 50% of the time in PuGs they can hard to find pre level 20.

Well i happened to come across a team whose dynamics i liked and quite frankly this has taken weeks of off and on playing all my toons in different PuGs but i feel that tonight i have found a group of people i can progress with in the way i like to. No hotshots showing off, no one playing from their toons point of view having a bad cause and effect on somebody else's, it was proper teamwork.

[ QUOTE ]
I have just hit 27 with my Claws scrapper, but I am considering dropping Eviscerate for Slash when the changes happen.

I find the animation is too long in comparison to other claws attacks. I'd rather keep up a steady stream of attacks than the big delay in the attack chain that it causes. (whereas I have no problem with Ripper from Spines which has the same animation...seems to fit that set better)

Just my thoughts

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt, sometimes you really need that instant high damage (if your lucky enough to have it recharged) plus its 1 of the highest auto'd dps attacks in the scrapper sets.

[ QUOTE ]
Swipe: Changed animation to a Two Hit swipe. Cast Time reduced to 1.5

[/ QUOTE ]

i am a little bit gutted about this i actually thought swipe was very claws like the dps increase effect given through action time change could of been granted by another type of change and the looks kept the same.

I especially would of loved slash to of had this animation as its the animation i would imagine to have a more realistic -def effect.

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on the tanker and depends on the blaster. Although I have never seen a tanker do a decent pull, not since I6 anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not surprised, as a tanker i wont share a team with another tanker unless i know them very well now as i have had bad experiences of other tankers making a harsh mess of things making life harder than it needs to be and having me tank on terms that are not mine (i know i have accidentally done this once to one tanker and he has done the same to me pre50 days). Practically 100% of my game history though there is no other tanker in the team and i like it better that way and only against enemies that can nerf my firetankers blazing aura (3 acc now) to not gain any aggro will i consider it.

I aint sure there is a king for pulling the snipe and the effect of snipe on a mob is the same for all range ATs with a snipe power from what i have seen its just selecting what member of the mob to choose.

If on a T junction there is say a group of CoT on one corner and a group of another CoT on the other and because the corners are on the trunk of the T they therefore next to eachother a tanker is likely to pull both (especially running in:P) and perhaps then i'd want a pull and intercept.

Claws has more damage "over time" if you get to auto a certain attack chain...which for QoL we dont or dont really get to unless on a really long drawn out fight against an AV and we know the chain follow up then eviscerate,focus, swipe, strike... well depends on slotting.

What it lacks is the type and size of damage boost that other sets get to be faster killers or the secondary effects to add survivability ie +def, -acc = psuedo +def and -recharge(-dps) = psuedo +def. It also has the damage type most widely resisted in the game therefore has more damage discounted than other damagetype dealers.

I think the melee sets are very fair pve wise well apart from the lethal/smash sets being more resisted. If claws was given build up pvp people would probably love it. As it is follow up is a lower damage build up that's permable.

The more damage slots you have the percentage change in damage boost drops from follow up, i think the same is said for build up, but i have never checked build up out at all so i cant offer a comparison.

With certain action times changed we can use more attacks in a lesser amount of time offering a ~30% higher dps but i dont think its going to break the bank PvP against most sets because of follow up. More damage over time (follow up + best attack chain) is not most damage possible in the shortest space of time (build up + best attack chain) and during the longer time period health regens and heals can be recharged which makes claws look weak.

[ QUOTE ]
Or when the blaster is pulling (which make more sense btw) where the tanker should be to intercept the mobs chasing and once again gather them into a nice dense group and ready for nuking.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tanker pulling first and herding before people attack is a lot lot neater. I dont understand why blasters pull at all 99.99r% of the time if there is a tanker with a taunt on the team. The snipe (or m30 grenade as the case maybe:P) and intercept has very few moments of necessity in the game. Id much rather taunt then make a nice dense group from day 1. The having to gain the aggro anyway makes the blaster pulling for me a complete waste of time and then i have a head in hands moment followed by then looking up to the heavens with spread open hands asking what have i done wrong in my life to deserve this.