Misaligned
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Originally Posted by Misaligned
...This is my issue with using purples. And as I have said before, I fully encourage people to slot anything they want into their builds
For myself, I will be hard pressed to ever see the value in them. For any purpose...
Yes. I have an 88'r and yes, I made my first billions by accidentally marketeering
I just can't see the value in em. Sorry - I'm cheap
And I've made it a point to keep stating that its just my opinion and people should slot whatever they like
But, people continue to question and show me the "error of my way" lol so I keep explaining why I don't see the value in them. *shrug*
Wow - this poor thread had been derailed more than Amtrak >.> -
Quote:And I still say that the 2 seconds your 5 purple sets are getting you on that power are not worth the cost.Originally Posted by Fulmens
Misaligned said
It depends greatly on the power. If you can take Foot Stomp from once per 22 seconds [unenhanced] or once per 12 seconds [95% rech] to once per 7 seconds [200% global plus recharge] you've darn near doubled your AOE damage. My numbers could be off, I'm not all that familiar with Super Strength, but when you start having a Foot Stomp-Knockout Blow-[something else] attack chain you're looking at a WHOLE LOT OF DAMAGE IN A HURRY.
I know everyone looks at the "whole" and says "my 200% global recharge give me X!". And that's true. But its the last 50% that I'm talking about here.
When I first broached this subject, I asked for a build that was significantly better with purples. A great example was an Elec/SD scrapper build that was posted. It had much more recharge - same defenses - same-ish health - pretty much everything was "close" but the posted build was better in all around damage output.
The defining powers of an elec/SD are LR and SC. You almost always couple these with build up, so they become the "trinity" of pulling. The build listed would cost approx 3-4 billion. Its build up, LR, and SC recharged in about 27 seconds (iirc, build up was the lagger, with LR and SC refreshing at 26).
Compared to my build of about 600 million, which had all 3 powers coming up in 29 seconds.
Esentially, for the "trinity" of damage output for that build, 3 billion investment nets you around 2 seconds of recharge on your defining powers. The powers also dealt a very similar amount of damage - less than 5% difference I believe and probably not that much.
This is my issue with using purples. And as I have said before, I fully encourage people to slot anything they want into their builds For myself, I will be hard pressed to ever see the value in them. For any purpose.
Sorry folks - but I'm a big picture kinda person, and purples don't offer enough for my big picture to warrant spending the inf on them. They most likely never will. -
Quote:I've heard NPCs will pay you to take it from them. While you arrest them. Sounds better than a store to me.Originally Posted by Nethergoat
and MA.
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Experiment:
Find a common salvage that has 0 bids.
Purchase that salvage in bulk and then re-list it.
Do this process for a week or more.
I was curious about something. I wanted to see what effect I would have by jumping in and "flipping" a salvage that was clearly not being flipped.
Expectations:
- Prices would normalize
- Prices would slowly rise
- Supply would slowly increase
- Demand would level out
Things that were tracked:
- Amount for sale on a daily basis
- General "feel" of the price median - I won't sit and watch the market for hours taking notes, so this is mostly impression
- Transactions that took place
- Average price of sold item
Salvage used:
- Spirit Thorn
Purchasing "rules" used:
- Try not to buy and sell at the same time
- Always buy for the same price
- Always sell for the same price
I began this experiment with 10 million inf and 132 black market sales (picked a non-marketeering toon for this). It is now about a week later and he has the following:
3,824 sales
14,851,866 inf
Net gains:
3,692 transactions
4,851,866 inf
Average profit per transaction:
1,314 inf
Big deal you say! You made 4 mil in a week you say! That's not impressive at all you say! You only made about 1,300 per salvage you say!
With the exception of 180 Spirit Thorn that I purchased for 10k each (woops - marketeering when tired is bad m'kay?) I paid and listed for the following:
Purchase price:
1,000
Listing Price:
100
Go back. Read those again. They are correct.
The original intention of this experiment was to see what would happen if I started "anti-flipping" - buying high and selling low as it were - and what effect it would have on that piece of salvage. Being the Robin Hood of Spirit Thorns! Buying up the ones that are expensive and selling them for next to nothing prices to anyone who wanted one.
To date - the supply is still constant. It moves a bit between 550 for sale and 700 for sale. I haven't impacted that at all. There was a high of about 950 for sale Saturday night. But that was gobbled up fairly quickly and now we're back to the 650 or so for sale.
I haven't impacted the price at all. It hasn't gone up or down. I can still buy high and sell low at will. If you don't believe me, you are welcome to anti-flip a 10 stack of your own.
I am 99% sure I was not being flipped. the most bids I ever saw sitting on this item were 11 at one point. By the time I had bids up on my 180, those were gone. If I was being flipped, someone was doing a very poor job of it.
Essentially, to all of the people who say that the flippers are marketeers are ruining the economy and driving up prices through our methods, please explain to me how I can do the exact opposite of what you are saying we do, and still make inf on the deal? Explain to me why I was getting more than 2x what I was buying for, across 3k transactions.
Take from this what you will. But I found this whole process rather interesting.
If its not new, or has been done before, oh well! I had a nice learning experience!
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Actually, the guide in my sig covers what I suggest for getting your first millions. Salvage flipping can be very profitable (relative to amount of inf on hand) at very low levels.
Mostly this was an experiment to see if I could make a go of it crafting IO sets with only 1 million.
Re: Purples after a billion...
I still avoid these things like the plague. I've made a couple hundred million off of a few - but that market is extremely volatile and I'm not knowledgeable enough about what the "normal" price is to make my bids on recipes. So anyone wanting to jump into that market would probably do well to do a LOT of research on prices before jumping in. -
Slotting every slot with level 50 SO's costs less than 6 million.
Where is the poor noob player that cannot afford that?
The crafting cost for a level 50 IO is 490k.
Crafting more than 12 IOs will cost you more in crafting costs than SO's.
Salvage is free.
Recipes are free.
Crafting costs are static.
Where's the problem? -
I wondered to myself - I said, "Self, how much do you really need to start marketeering?"
I would have answered myself, but then people would think I'm crazy...
*cough*
When I sat down to do some serious marketeering, I sent my marketeer 150 million. I figure that is what I could part with and have no real issue if I lost it all.
Well, that was enough.
As I evolved, I found I wanted into the bigger markets. This lead me to keeping about 500 mil or more on 1 of my marketeers.
I then evolved into serious lazy speculation. I would list mid-range bids on expensive IOs, craft em, and list em for cost - allowing people to over pay me what they thought my time was worth. Apparently people think my time is worth a lot lol. This caused me to have a 2nd marketeer with 800 mil+ on him (cash and bids).
As I was flipping through my characters I came upon my first "official" marketeer. She's on Freedom, and I decided to move shop as I find the market on Freedom exceedingly annoying.
Anywho, I logged into her and for some reason I had let 1 million on her. Probably a typo. Seeing this I said to myself "Self, what do you s'pose we could do with that million?"
Again, I didn't answer. Silly people.
I decided to give straight crafting a shot. I took my mil and looked into set IOs that were going for ~5 mil which had recipes on the cheap. I found one, bid on 5 recipes and logged off.
Came back the next day and *poof*! I had bought them! YAY!
After some bid creeping on the salvage, I had to leave up my lowball bids and walk away for another day before I had enough salvage to make the 5 recipes I had bought.
Off to the table!
Bam! 1 done! Bam! 2 done! Bam! 3 done! *bzzt*
what the heck?!!
Oh dang... I don't have enough inf to make the 4th and 5th ones!!
Off to the market.
I list 1 using the 50% mark up method and log off since I didn't have enough inf to list 2 lol.
Day 3 now and I sold my enhancement! YAY!
I quickly take my massive profits and go craft the other 2 IOs. I then (being a tiny bit smarter) list the 4 IOs I have before looking for more recipes to buy. I bid on 10 recipes this time! (2 sets of 5) and I'm out of money again. *sigh*
Day 4 dawns with 4 sales and 8 purchases!
I am now in business people!
Here's my rules for myself (rules put in place to keep me from forgetting about her lol):
- Check once a day
- Craft in 5's (only go craft when you have all 5 recipes you bid on)
- List in 5's (List all 5 and don't break them up - this way I am less inclined to up my price later)
- Stop buying recipes with rare salvage *bonk*
- List for mark up and hit "get all inf". Don't Look! Just grab it and go!
I have been at this for 6 days now.
I have 125 million on this character.
So, I now turn to myself and I say, "Self, I do believe you can become an ebil marketeer with nothing more than 1 million. Perhaps less. But a million is a nice round number."
My self doesn't answer me though. Cause only crazy people talk to themselves... right? -
I dunno - I loved the 6 issue story arc where Green Lantern and The Flash go fishing in Montana. Now THAT was some good comics!
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Quote:I'm not going to debate what you all think is worth slotting and what isn't. To me, its not worth it by a long shot - no matter what the build. I can't personally see spending 10-20 times what I normally do on any build just to slot purples. Its the same reason why I will never ever slot a glad armor proc. I just don't see the value in it. This is, once again, my personal opinion. I don't care if you spend 800 billion on every one of your characters. Its your inf, spend it how you want!
Assuming you can get away with the "cheap" purples and you get all 5 sets for 500 mil for each set, you've essentially invested 2.5 billion in cutting about 8 seconds off of a power. Personally, and this is definitely a personal choice, that's not even close to worth it. You could also slot 5 other sets that offer some form of recharge instead of those purples, thereby negating their effectiveness (from a recharge stand point) even more.
@Intrinsic
Sorry you lost your money. I assume you got it back when you petitioned for it?
In a digital game, nothing is completely secure. Storing via bids and gleemail are one option available to you. If you prefer to store your inf on characters, there are what... 36 character slots available per server? Across 11 servers that's 393 characters. If you never store any on the market or in gleemail, you still have the potential to store 786 billion inf before you run out of room.
so instead of a 60 bil+ cap we're now petitioning for a cap of over 786 billion per character because that's what you can actually hold on all of your character slots?
Speaking of - for those arguing for the increase - what would you set it to? Its a purely arbitrary number you want it increased to, so which number do you want and why do you want it to be that number? -
Quote:WAY off topic, but I'll post my thoughts on this:This confuses me. Did you forget a "not" somewhere in there?Quote:
I have yet to find a build that is significantly better building for something other than recharge. If I do, I may consider slotting purples in that build.
You build a character for recharge. You get to say 80% through various sets. You slap on hasten for an additional 70%. You're now at 150ish%.
You add on 5 purple sets at a cost of 500mil to 2.5 bil each.
You're now at 200% global recharge. A power that started with a 1 min CD went from 1 min at 0 recharge to 30 seconds at 100%. At 150% I "think" its now about 22.5 seconds (could be a little more). At 200%, its 15 seconds.
Assuming you can get away with the "cheap" purples and you get all 5 sets for 500 mil for each set, you've essentially invested 2.5 billion in cutting about 8 seconds off of a power. Personally, and this is definitely a personal choice, that's not even close to worth it. You could also slot 5 other sets that offer some form of recharge instead of those purples, thereby negating their effectiveness (from a recharge stand point) even more.
Now, if I can find a build for an AT that works exceptionally well without recharge, instead - building for something else, I might consider slotting purples into that build because odds are very good that the 50% recharge from them would then actually be worth a significant portion of my recharge bonus.
Its just my opinion
Back on topic - I still disagree with raising the inf cap - there's really no valid reason to do it other than for "convenience" of the rich. While I am part of that group, even with the inf cap, you can potentially horde well over 40 billion - in bids that never fill - on any character. Add in the (almost) 20 billion you can hide in gleemail and you're looking at raising the cap from 2 billion to higher than 60 billion just to compensate for what a single character can hold on them at any one time. That' a huge jump for convenience sake alone. -
Quote:Actually, I see the dozens of IOs labeled as vendor trash as an indication of the issues with set bonuses. For the most part, we have 5-6 bonuses that are sought after by almost everyone. The rest of the set bonuses are used few and far between.Originally Posted by _23X_
out of the approximate 760 possible IOs out there 2 or 3 selling above the inf cap is enough of an edge case that I am not sure the system is broke. if anything the dozen or more IOs labeled "vendor trash" is a sign that drop rates are too high.
I am not a fan of either raising the inf cap or drop rates.
If they really want to balance the system out, they need to reduce some bonuses while increasing others, or just propagate the desired bonuses across more sets.
Case and point: Nearly every purple set offers the following bonuses: +Acc and +Recharge.
I have yet to find a build that is significantly better building for something other than recharge. If I do, I may consider slotting purples in that build.
Aside from +Recharge and +Acc - we see most people commonly slotting for S/L def and positional def. Why? Well, because the set bonuses on everything else are insignificantly small, or they are so situational, they're generally not worth building for.
Why don't people slot for +Dmg? Because even if you were somehow able to slot each and every one of them (you can't - you don't have enough slots) you'd still only get a 64.5% bonus to your damage. Eat 3 reds and beat it every time. Get Hasten, and your global recharge is enough to outpace that same 64.5% damage bonus - and you get all of the other bonuses of the sets
Until they take a serious look at the set bonuses, you're always going to see vendor trash. I just wish there wasn't so dang much of it so people could have options! -
Quote:Grind is a grind - and if you don't make it mindless, it goes by too quickly and people say its a failure.Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
You know, this would accomplish 2 things: non-combat gameplay and encouraging exploration.
I don't think that the market leader is worthy of emulation but this is 1 thing they could definitely use. It can be made thematic as scientific research, tech work, etc.
It's better to be NOT mindless, but it should be relaxing and involve exploration.
Personally, I really rather enjoy that my level 1 character has the same crafting ability of my level 50. I like not having to be forced to grind through hundreds and hundreds of worthless items just to make the one I want.
I can see where people may enjoy something like this - but for them, I say we have badging. A poor substitute at best, but it involves every aspect of the game and can be a lot more involving than "farming" or "gathering".
Leaving this stuff entirely out of an MMO was a nice touch imo. Nearly every other one I can think of has some sort of gathering in it - and all of it is seen as a "required chore" by most of the player base.
Just my 2 inf
**You can now take that 2 inf and start flipping salvage. I expect to see a report of you hitting the inf cap in no less than 3 weeks. Ok 4... but not any longer than that! Kgo!** -
Quote:Originally Posted by Jetpack
I used to get that a lot.
That's prolly cause you're an evil flipper making your billions every week by screwing the casual player - forcing them to buy your salvage for hundreds of thousands of inf when you pay only 1 for all of yours (not 1 each... just 1).
Srsly. Flipping salvage is not only highly profitable (screw crafting, flipping salvage is where its at) but immensely funny as well. You can sit there watching your sales roll in and have that warm fuzzy feeling knowing that the guy who just paid 500k for your spirit thorn is crying himself to sleep right now. I mean it was probably half his entire savings, but so what? Its not like he can go anywhere else and get one!!
Muwahahahahahahahaha!! -
Quote:Originally Posted by Jetpack
/pokes Misaligned
/flex
Bad touch!
/NO!
/smack Jetpack on the nose -
Quote:Originally Posted by Quasadu
Here we go - not my first billion but... uhm... well, my most recent, I guess.
Grats! Belated I guess?
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I can't even begin to fathom how someone might even consider this a violation of the terms of service.
Oddly enough... while I'm typing this out... I read the description of what this forums is for:
Quote:I made the important part a bit bigger for comprehensionThis forum is to discuss the Consignment Market system and Inventions. Come here to make suggestions, bid or sell items, and discuss all features of the game economy. THIS IS FOR IN GAME ITEMS ONLY!
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*pokes the dead horse*
/flee -
Quote:1. Check!Originally Posted by Enyalios
1) You make at least 50% of your income from the market (not selling drops)
2) You have a repeatable system established which provides a predictable income from the market.
3) You buy and sell the same item at the same time with your buy prices lower than sells (if you're the other way you're not ebil.....you're inf destroying)
4) You own at least one niche
5) You understand how to market PvP to protect your niche(s)
6) You have so much inf you don't know what to do with all of it because you'd cause inflation if you tried to spend it all (making Fulmens mad too!)
2. Check!
3. Check! and if you can figure out how to make money doing it the other way, you're super ebil! (I'm doing it right now btw - its really funny and quite entertaining - My experience with this will be posted next week at the end of my fun)
4. Check! At this point, I "dabble" in about 2 dozen and I hold down 2 or 3 depending on the week.
5. Check! But we don't talk about this... cause if people knew what some of us really do to other marketeers... they'd get kinda grumpy.
6. Sorta check? I tithe about a billion every week to the Crazy 88s. Generally this is what I make on the weekends. I have somewhere around 2 billion liquid now, but I never go "wanting" for anything. And when I do go buy things, I don't cause inflation - except on salvage. I have decided to purchase all (less than rare) salvage for 55,555 inf - even if I could have gotten it for 1. I tend to get annoyed when I have to change my 55,555 to 100,123 because some casual player decided to raise the price and gouge his friends.
I would add a 7th, for those who are truly and malevolently ebil:
7) Instruct others in your practices so that they may go forth and steal thy inf.
I have 2 protege's now and am willing to take on 2 more if anyone has a need for hands on training.
I also wrote a handy guide on how to spend considerably less at the market. Its longish - but its all very true and should stay true for a very long time. -
Meh, I'll still pay 200k for em after Halloween. I don't really care enough to store it somewhere.
Kinda speaks to how lazy I am that I have a field crafter who has yet to make common IOs for any of my characters. I'd rather spend the extra inf and buy it nao! from someone rather than bother myself with logging out... grabbing the salvage, dropping the table... making it... mailing it back to myself... then logging out again.
Wow I'm lazy.
Stock up! Every one of my characters will be happy to pay you 200k later this year for each piece of salvage you were kind enough to store for me
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Quote:Originally Posted by je_saist
... and just what would this do to the player struggling to just SO their avatar out at level 50?
You know, 95%+ of the entire playerbase.
What I want to know is this:
How are these players burning their inf so efficiently when the rest of us have to come up with new and creative ways to do it?
Are you kidding me - claiming that 95%+ of the entire playerbase cannot afford SOs?
Which universe do you play in, exactly?
Do you even realize how ignorant your claim actually is?
At this point, I'd actually like to stop and ask you if you have any idea what an SO is. Well, do you?
Do you realize that over 93 (I think its 93... ) slots, at a whopping 60k per level 50 SO you'd spend less than 5.6 million.
Do you?
Hell... do you realize that these things drop for FREE from level 50 mobs?
What exactly are these 95%+ of the entire playerbasedoing with any of the inf they happen to accidentally make on the way to 50? Do they delete every single piece of salvage and every single recipe they get? Do they know they can vendor them... In fact, Mr. 95%+, if you vendor JUST the level 50 recipes and delete everything else - it takes 56 recipe sales to break even on this deal.
Clearly people are struggling out there. Thank God you brought this to our attention!
Now, part 2 of your claim...
If everything and I mean everything is adjusted to 10% of the current cost... IT DOESN'T COST YOU ANY MORE TO SO OUT A CHARACTER!!
If you have $10 and you want to buy a soda for $1. In fact, you want to buy 10. But all of the sudden all of the money and prices are reduced to 10% of their original value, you *gasp* only have $1 now!!!
OMG!!
Woops. Oh yeah, the soda now costs $0.10 (that's a dime by the way) so you can STILL buy 10.
I apologize. I am allergic to stupid. I break out in swinging fists.
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Quote:This.Originally Posted by seebs
I doubt there was "a guy controlling the market", I suspect prices were just high for a while. You may find this hard to believe, but when prices are too high, some people won't buy -- which can cause supply to increase.
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Hi there! Watch as I eat my words!
Now understand that this is not empirical. Nor is this how things will "actually be". This is however taking the best data that is available and applying some basic math to it.
I was curious about how the weighting affected a random roll. So... I went and gathered that data from the wiki. Then I went to the market and got an approximate price for each and every IO listed. In order to do this, I had to make some assumptions:
- The person random rolling is level 50
- The person doing the rolling is going to craft all of the recipes they get
- The person rolling will sell their crafted IO for approximately what the market shows currently
- Reward merits and A merits use the same pool to roll from and use the same weighting (this may turn out to be bugger all false - if it does, I'm sorry)
One last assumption was made: Prices fluctuate. However, they never all go down or all go up at the same time. When one comes down a bit, another goes up a bit. This allows us to make the assumption that the weighted value of a roll will remain fairly constant.
I managed to plow through the 10-14 rolls (not exactly looking forward to the rest of the rolls *sigh* very time consuming) and after applying the weighting, I came up with the following number:
Approximately: 24,800,000
This is the *average* value of the crafted IO you will get from a random roll in this range. This can then be extrapolated to show that a random roll from an A Merit will yield 5 crafted IOs with a gross value of approximately 124,000,000.
This is significantly more than the 75 million I originally stated. Hence, why I am here eating my words.
I will be extrapolating the prices across all of the rolling ranges (that have data) and posting what "appears" to be your "best bet" when rolling your A Merits.
For right now, I would assume that the 10-14 and 15-19 will be the highest average number with an overall smaller pool to draw from and a higher premium paid for sets that cap at lower levels. But that's just a guess for now. -
Quote:Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Worth more at 20? What would be the best level to stay at for A merit purposes?
I would expect somewhere between 30-35 would give best results. But... then again, that can change over a weekend. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Carnal
I don't see the price dropping...well, at all, without a large increase in supply and large decrease in demand. Neither of those two are likely to be satiated, so we can expect prices to stay very high.
Per your earlier points, there will likely always be some value bounding: that is, an absolute low point and high point. The average value can be expressed as a weighted average of those two points; the weights will change, of course, to reflect the interaction between buyers and suppliers (aka the market).
Absolute low: 50k (or less depending on level) for straight vendor trash. If all you ever do is roll and vendor, this is your lower bound.
Absolute high: Assuming you are the luckiest person on Earth, you could potentially roll 5 x (insert expensive proc) on every roll. This *should* average out to about 175 mil per recipe (after costs) which would give you an upper limit of about 875 mil per merit.
Obviously, you're going to fall somewhere in between those. But there are your low and high end bounds.
Looking quickly at the rare recipe roll weighting project (using the 30-34 range due to volume and popularity) being done by others with much more patience than myself (found here) I would place your actual value much closer to the low end than the high end.
The apparent weighting seems to favor recipes that sell for about 10 mil on average with a few bigger fish in the mix. The weighting also implies that some real garbage has a much higher chance of dropping than some of the better stuff.
All in all, you're going to eventually find that random rolls will become less and less profitable at 50. It is extremely easy for most people to crank out an A-Merit and roll with it. This leads to an excess of the "weighted" recipes filling the market. While leveling to 50, you may or may not find good "parking spots" for your character to roll on. I have a level locked 35. The stuff there sells well, but not nearly as fast as the level 50 stuff moves.
If I had to revise my earlier answer, I would say that on average, the recipes you randomly roll are going to be worth roughly 10 mil each and the purchased (for 2 merits) can be cherry picked to generate the 75 mil per merit I listed before.
As for the 3% procs staying at 3 billion... well, that's something we'll see, won't we? Personally, I feel they'll come back down to roughly 2.5 where they were right before the merger. There is no real explanation for them to be up to 3 bil at this time other than a perceived shortage. The influx of them doesn't appear to have died down dramatically, so I think they'll start to come down over the next couple of months.
**At 2.5 billion, you still need 34 A Merits (at 75 mil each) to get one through sales. In order to "break even" 30 merits @ 75 mil, you need to have the price come down to 2.25 billion -
Grats!
Quote:Originally Posted by Rast_of_Guardian
I think I qualify as an ebil pimp, I made my last 500 Mil flipping HOs.
I actually snorted when I read that. And I don't snort. I will endeavor to find you the perfect pimp outfit now!
Muwahahahaha!