Memphis_Bill

It may fall under such a system eventually, but I wouldn't argue with something like that being added to power customization with a minimal/no FX option. (The current look doesn't bother me, but hey, I'm not everyone.)

Those are not personal attacks.

PC_Guy calling you a troll? That is a personal attack.

Had I called you stupid - note I said you lacked understanding of the rule, which is NOT the same thing by a long shot - that would be an attack. And you, by the way, persisted beyond anything I said to you. I did not, however, call you stupid. I said you did not understand the purpose of the cottage rule. That is an observation, not an attack.

It would be like trying to teach you algebra, and you not getting that the letters are placeholders for values. Pointing out that "You need to remember that" would not be an attack. Pointing out that you're having a hard time remembering that replacement would not be a personal attack. It is an observation. And you are taking those as "Attacks" - or at least labeling them as such to dance around what's been asked of you.

The "Not worth further notice?" That's also not an attack. Just a notification that I feel there's no point to any further conversation with you. An opinion you seem all too happy to reinforce.

Learn the difference.

Then you lack understanding of many things, and my opinion of you was correct. You were given a historical example of what happened the last time they tried, and why it was a bad idea, and you choose to ignore it.

You are, therefore, not worth further notice.

The more you post, the more I think you're wanting nothing but a fight.

You say the rule needs to be removed. You must have SOMETHING in mind as to why. Your prior off-the-cuff examples, as well as the one I had to dig up on your behalf, ALL can be fixed without circumventing it. And yet you refuse to provide a single example.

All you're doing is proving the opinion I have of you - that you have zero understanding of the cottage rule - correct.

What power is so broken it needs to be completely removed and replaced, with justification as to why you feel that way.

You SAY you're wanting conversation. Yet all you're doing is dancing and attacking.

Calling into question your understanding (or demonstrated lack thereof) of what you want removed is not an attack.

Are you going to give the examples requested, or keep dodging it? C'mon, you're so insistent on this being removed, surely you have ONE power in mind that's SO broken you think the cottage rule needs to be circumvented - and note, one power is not reason to remove it from consideration completely.

I have never had that work with her (or Carnies) when I tested it - of course, last test with carnies was a month (?) ago, and I believe their phase is a little different.
THAT's the one I keep forgetting - and IIRC also a very, very early change, like removing fold space and adding singularity. Did that change after Beta, though? (It's not mentioned in the Wiki, even though there's a "history" section for Gravity with Fold Space.)

Edit: NVM, found the patch note - 2004/06/03 so, yeah, early change.

... except I don't believe you can affect them when phased. Which of course would be able to be handled by the dismissal you put in. Or the oft-requested "Let me fight phased enemies when I'm phased," currently in PVP.

And none of which would violate the cottage rule. (Though I'd personally prefer a toggle on the phase powers.)

Let's see, I think it's fair to call that a personal attack from you. As well as, to various extents:

Attacking people who want powers they find useful to stay around so you can keep on your own desires, not to mention the rather immature "the crying will stop" nonsense.
Calling into question your understanding when you most obviously show a LACK of it is not a personal attack. You have yet to demonstrate an understanding of what you want removed. Saying "Yes I do!" is not that demonstration.

You have yet to demonstrate your understanding of the cottage rule, yet enjoy making these little snipes out the side of your mouth. So, really, don't get on me about "personal attacks," kiddo.

Look, more personal attacks FROM YOU. And yet you've made no real contribution to the discussion, or - as requested - listed a single power that's SO BROKEN the cottage rule should be thrown out.

You've listed some powers, and I've dug up ANOTHER you seem to have your sights on, and I've shown how those powers can be listed without breaking the cottage rule. You have yet to show your understanding of said rule or its purpose. OR provide the requested example, opting instead for... an attack.

So, frankly, pot, stop pointing your finger at what you think is a kettle and letting it know what color it is. And really - do let me know when you *are* ready to apologize. I won't hold my breath, though.

So, in other words, you do not want an actual discussion.

I note you have no reply to the points made, nor an example of a power so broken the only way to fix it is to replace it instead of making changes within the cottage rule.

As I posted in reply to MajorPrankster:
Do you *have* an answer to that? Can you provide those examples? Because the four you've listed so far can easily be fixed without violation of the cottage rule. The fix might be somewhat extreme - but it does not require removal of the power or a change to the base function.

But, of course, it seems - like so much in this thread - you've chosen to ignore that.

Here. Simple format.
Power:
Set:
AT(s) affected:
What is wrong with the power:
Why an adjustment cannot fix it, so it needs replacing:
What my fix would be:

I'd be fine with that.

Honestly - and I've written this up before - the whole SG registrar/SG info setup needs revision to provide actually *useful* information. Let me or my SG leader flag our SG for, say, RP, PVP friendly, "One alt only," or whatever, and let people use that list to find an SG that's actually useful to them and fitting for their play style. And, since we have superleaders, let people contact them (and/or leaders) when they need to via the list. Sure, keep Prestige there. *shrug* If people want to sort by it, let them. But don't pretend it's a way to list "worthwhile" SGs (as calling said list the "top 100 SGs does.) Make it nothing but a sort feature.

I have yet to see anyone arguing that the cottage rule should not be followed actually bring up an example where, yes, that is truly the only way to rectify a situation.

So, if you know of these cases, feel free to list them, with justifications. I'll bet they can all be made "acceptable" without violating said rule. I can think of perhaps one power, total, that could be removed wholesale in one instance because it's so out of place to me.

You're right. It doesn't.

Which (and this isn't directed at you) has been stated multiple times in this and other threads, but which keeps getting conveniently ignored by some people - that a power can be changed, sometimes drastically, without contravening the cottage rule - without changing the powers *basic purpose.*

Again, there is nothing in that rule that states it. Yes, even to the point of replacing a power.

HOwever, if some people had their way here, it would be done so arbitrarily - "I don't like this power, we'll turn it completely into something else!" that there would be no point, no logic, no order to any of the sets or changes. And if you want to know what happens when they do that - again, look at what happened when they *tried* to replace so-called "unpopular" powers in the Patron pools.

Also,
(a) No, moving a power does not violate the cottage rule. It does not change what that power does. Tanks had this done with Taunt once already, and
(b) you need to get your facts straight. Masterminds have ALWAYS been able to summon their first tier pet at level 1, unless they choose an attack instead. ALWAYS.
And (c) if you *really* think Assassin's Strike - a long, interruptable attack - should be at level 1, you really need to rethink things. No, that should not have been put at level 1, and I say this as someone who plays multiple stalkers. AS at level 1 would make stalkers even LESS popular, thanks to no armor, no backup attacks, no *anything* to help either combat or survivability.

Then show some actual comprehension of what is being discussed and make a cohesive argument about why, as opposed to "Dear god end it!" and "The crying will stop. Because, quite frankly, you do NOT show any understanding of it, nor do you make any sort of actual argument or partake in any sort of discussion actually laying out your disagreements.
I question knowledge you quite publicly seem to resist wanting to admit having, such as what the cottage rule is and its purpose. If you don't like being called out on it, prove I'm wrong. Somehow I think you can't.

I note you still don't seem to have gained an understanding of the rule, or clarified beyond "I want!" why you think it should go away, what massive issue it causes (or that removing it would solve.)

To turn your own question back on you, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously with that?

I've laid out explanation of it, with example and conversation. Which quite obviously you have't bothered reading. Much like the discussion of what the cottage rule *is,* examples and purpose. You... "End it, people will stop crying over time." And assigning some nonsense holy mission to right some drastic wrong to yourself, with statements like:
That reads as "What *I* want is all that matters, screw game balance, history or anyone else, and don't worry about how flimsy my reasons or lacking in understanding of why that directive is in place is!"

Hmmm.

No, I can't take you the slightest bit seriously, and shan't. I question your understanding and grasp of it, and you've said and done *nothing* to change my mind on your lack of comprehension.

Edit:

And in fact another post of yours quite frankly proves it.

Every power you mention there - and you'll find absolutely zero argument from me that such things as Time Bomb or Poison's Poison Trap - can be rectified with adjustment, with absolutely *zero* need to throw out the cottage rule, and many suggestions on how to fix said powers *have* been made that sit perfectly comfortably in with said rule. The fact you mention them after insisting it needs to be thrown out tells me QUITE well you do not have a grasp on what it is.

Now, if you'd *like* to have a discussion on them, I'll be more than happy to proceed with you. In fact, some of the powers you mention in your list there *have* already been touched on (such as making the various phase powers toggles, or letting PVE get the PVP "Phase can affect phase" ability... none of which changes the basic purpose of the power, IE, none of which violate the cottage rule.) Time Bomb? Placed nuke. It can be adjusted to be user controlled, or changed to be like the Omega Maneuver - shorter duration, a taunt to draw enemies to it, etc. - which, again, does not change its foundational purpose.

But again, that brings up the question of - "So what?"

So someone burns a few billion on the conversion. Does it *matter* that they made 150 million Prestige with a better rate as opposed to 40 million, just to make up some numbers?

They're at the top of a pointless list. So what?

They get to dainty up their base a bit faster. So what?

Why should everyone *else* be penalized - and I don't think you'll find many that say that isn't a highly punitive rate - because a *few* might be able to rush getting a *second* large meeting room or something? It has no effect on anyone else, and if it's designed as an INF sink (which, really, it is,) it has so far failed pretty miserably overall because *of* that rate.

Change the rate to make it more attractive to use, pulling more INF out of the system so some private bases can be made more "homey" more quickly.

There really *isn't* a downside here.

As will finishing a mission objective, if there are multiples. Noticed that last night (rescuing debutantes from the council, for instance.)

*points down to sig* Guide for altaholics down there on ways to get that alt leveled. I'm one, too (nearly 300 alts,) but a fair number of 50s (think my last count was 26?) - and yes, played.

You can get there.

(that said, when I first saw a Kheld was I3, my little Blaster was in a Hollows team... and I wanted one. When we had that horrid content gap and XP slowing - and double-debt cap, etc. - from the mid-late 30s to 40, that "Want a Kheld" was one of the things that kept me going. That and RP. Still love that PB... which is also 50.)

Well, like I said above... I kind of consider the Incarnate system the "Praetorian EAT" at this point, since it's serving some of the same functions. But yeah, expand that part of the world, too. Absolutely.

Step one, find out if the person saying that *actually* is referring to it properly.
Step two, see if the change you want violates it. If you're tweaking - from minor (damage, etc.) to somewhat major (click to toggle or vice versa,) it probably doesn't. Though you may still be affecting others negatively.

Community regard... *shrug* isn't always right. If it were, well, we wouldn't get Heavies in Rikti invasions when people used shadow fall.

However, the flip side of that is this - a *fundamental* change to a power is going to affect someone ELSE's gameplay negatively. And what irritates the hell out of me with some people making these suggestions is the attitude that the people affected should just "Stop crying and suck it up."

I'll argue, in many cases, against wholesale power changes because the ones suggested are detrimental - or the "problem" isn't so bad that it needs to have a power completely and utterly destroyed. And that the playstyle, and player investment in the *current* powers, would get thrown by the wayside. When you do that, the playerbase loses faith, and you lose subscriptions - which, frankly, leads to a dead game. Even F2P wouldn't put up with that, done thoughtlessly.

And of course a lot of what some people are going to label a "fundamental" change... isn't. It's a tweak of some magnitude. It's adjusting a secondary effect. You still should consider what it would do to *everyone else* - after all, you aren't everyone, and yes, people DO like the power or set as it is *right now* because of one reason or another.

(Edit re: Propel - I still think it would just need to be sped up. Then again, Dominators are a whole other issue - I think something SHOULD have been done before it was introduced over there, as while controllers aren't typically known as high-damage, and Propel helps there, Doms have an entire secondary dedicated to making your enemies into finely ground hamburger.)