MaxLongstreet
-
Posts
171 -
Joined
-
Quote:I don't disagree at all with the statement that purples are much better for most classes than oranges - this is obviously true because of the 45% vs. 90% disparity in how much defense/resist is required to reach a cap, and because defense is generally easier to get overall.Originally Posted by Dispari
I suppose you're talking an Elec Tank with Tough, since that's the only way you'd have 80% RES. So assuming all your RES stuff is fully slotted with level 50 IOs:
S/L: 79.2%
E: 90%
N: 35.8%
F/C: 35%
P: 55.55%
T: 0%
If you use a small orange, you end up with 89.2%. So for a 100 damage attack, you take 10.8 instead of 20.8. Which is almost half (-50% damage). Your E doesn't change at all, so that's -0% for E. For N/F/C you're taking 55 instead of 65. Which is about -16%.
A small purple would mean you take 25% less damage to S/L/E/N/F/C. Which, while it's less on the S/L, is better on everything else. Especially E, which gets no benefit from an orange at all. So unless you're fighting enemies that do only S/L damage (unlikely), adding a purple allows you to reduce all incoming damage by a flat 25%. Adding a purple allows you to reduce damage to energy, which an orange can't do.
Also, using a medium or large orange when you have that much RES is a huge waste. You're only one small orange away from being capped to 3 things, so if you do use an orange, anything after that should be a purple.
Now, baseline, a small purple is -25% all damage, and a small orange is -10% all damage. A large orange is -20% all damage. If you have extraordinary amounts of DEF or RES already, it is a good idea to play to your strength since both of them increase exponentially as you indicated. 80% -> 90% is half damage. I do use oranges on my Invuln Brute who has 70% S/L. But mostly because she already has 40-50% DEF when surrounded by enemies. But in most cases, a purple goes a lot farther than an orange.
But this isn't what was being argued - it was basically being claimed that oranges aren't worth using, even on resist-based toons, which just isn't true. Folks responded to my example of where it wasn't true to say they'd still use purples. With most toons, purples are an easy choice. But there are also clear cases where oranges are more useful, or the utility is about the same. -
Quote:In well-managed games, an overpowered fotm gets the nerf bat after a while, after which it stops being fotm. Fire/Kin next baby!Originally Posted by PracticallyGod
you dont know how fotm works do you?
-
Quote:Ok, now this is just silly. First off, how does the Electric Tank suddenly only get hit 5% of the time by taking a small purple? Unless, you've been building defense through lots set bonuses and weave and such, a small purple does NOT softcap you. If it is the case that you've built up a lot of defense, then you're sitting pretty, since you can cap with EITHER an orange or a purple and both makes you a god.Originally Posted by Retilian
ok im goin to bite.....So you have 80% resist(yey!)....now the question becomes do i eat an orange and hit my cap reduceing incoming dmg by 90% or do i eat a purple and only have a 5% chance to get hit?
Personally ill eat that purple any day of the week cuse even the small purples increase your def enuff that just 1-2 will softcap you easy.....Now the question of what is better is pretty easy to see imo......to get hit or not to get hit all the time? Honestly ide go for the purple over an orange any day because even at the resist cap your still taken dmg mabey not as much but its still hittin that green bar but at the soft cap of def you might only get hit once out of every 5 times.
As to the argument that it's better to be at the defense cap than the resist cap, this is incomprehensible to me. Personally, I'd have a slight preference for the resist cap because the damage flow is more even and less at the effect of the RNG, but both are dandy. But arguing that the defense cap is better because you get hit less often is...deliberately ignoring half the equation. -
Wow, the ignorance runs deep on this board. If you're at 80% s/l resist, how would a purple help more than an orange? Someone enlighten me.
Perhaps this is a case of Scrapper bias, where lower caps make resist inherently inferior to defense on that class. But contrary to popular belief, not everyone's playing a scrapper. -
Quote:UNTRUE.Originally Posted by Dispari
A small purple offers you more mitigation than a large orange. The only time I use oranges are on my characters who are already soft-capped.
Did you actually bother to read the example that I gave?
It completely depends what cap you're pushing up against. If you're pushing up against the resist cap, then resist insps will give you the best bang for your buck. If you're pushing up against the defense cap, then defense insps will. Of course, if you just want to not read carefully and say defense always wins, then that's your perogative. -
Quote:This makes absolutely no sense to me. If you're running an electric armor tank, orange inspirations are your bread and butter - an orange moves you from about 80% S/L resist to the cap at 90%. Halving the damage you take from many sources - I'd say that was pretty good for one inspiration, wouldn't you?Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Oh yeah... I probably should mention this. Back when they first added resistance inspirations I was all like "cool, resist based characters can get help too". Then I saw the values and haven't touched them once, even on characters with DR.
The only sort of resistance I'd even consider trying for with sets is.... psi resistance. Of course psi defense or ranged defense would be better. -
When SC gets its well deserved nerf, my opinion of Castle will definitely increase. This will go a ways towards balancing the game and diversifying powersets in use.
-
I think the answer to this is pretty simple - Toons with resist based defenses would take it and love it, and those without it would find it irrelevant.
I suspect the folks who would really like it would be those with resist-based armor Brutes, since Brutes have a great resist cap that can't be approached on a regular basis without sets. -
I have limited experience with Brutes, so I'm probably the wrong person to answer this, but I've played an Electric armor tank quite a bit lately, so I'll offer a basic assessment:
This combo should be quite good for dishing out damage. Fire is a high damage primary, and Electric Armor further helps damage by boosting your recharge, solving your Stamina problems with Power Sink, and adding a pbaoe. You should be able to deal high damage both single target and aoe without down time.
The challenge will be staying alive to kill what you're capable of killing. Electric Armor, as much as I love it, can be a little bit squishy for a Brute while leveling, and Fire adds damage, not mitigation. Some basic advice:
-- Try to keep oranges on hand for tough missions to boost you up near the resist cap.
-- Take power sink the moment it becomes available. Use it for mitigation as well as to solve Stamina issues.
-- Take Tough and Weave soon. Tough is basically mandatory for a resist-based Brute.
-- If you play it to 50 and spend tons of infamy on sets you can make a fantastic toon by layering a lot of defense over your resists and getting godly recharge to pump your damage.
Good luck! -
I looked down and I noticed I had 14 of these friggin' things after not so many missions. Of course I have the salvage to make exactly zero of them. It's to the point where I simply delete revolvers as soon as I see them.
-
Going for Recovery set bonuses on an electric tank and not taking power sink is kind of like taking Assault while not slotting your attacks for damage.
Power Sink is THE signature power of Electric Armor; if you aren't taking it, you should probably just take another main power. As others have said, it simply solves all your endurance problems, as well as providing some mitigation to boot - it's 5 times as good as all the Recovery set bonuses you can take. -
Quote:Shall I start talking about Trick Arrow Corruptors again?Originally Posted by Silverado
There are no dumb powersets, only dumb players.
-
Not enough global recharge
.
You certainly got more efficient on the recharge there. I'd never pass up some of the defense you're passing on, but hey, if you don't need the defense more power to you.
One slot that might be overkill is the second Accuracy in Benumb. I know you don't want to miss with it, but anything you're hitting with Benumb you've just hit with Infrigidate and Freezing Rain. Add in 48% global accuracy, and it's hard to see you're not at 95% on anything unless you get socked with big to hit buffs. -
If Mass Confusion and Total Dom are down, then a Tank or Scrapper with Cold shields on should be eating the alpha, but if I was called on, I'd go Mass Hypnosis before Terrify. Won't get shot by those I miss with Terrify and get the containment bonus for damage. And yes, definitely Sleet right afterwards.
Good luck - keep posting on how it goes! -
Quote:I agree that it's excellent mitigation, and the mass hypnosis to Terrify pattern is pretty much standard for me. I was saying that I wouldn't make Terrify a big spawn opener, even with a bit of knockback. Also, mass hypnosis is a great solo opener, but it's not a team opener. If other stuff is already up, or the team has already aggroed the spawn, then I think you fire Terrify with no concerns. What I'm doing a bad job of trying to say is that having the proc wouldn't have me fire into 20 unaggroed guys, and if they were already aggroed/slept/sleeted/held/confused I would fire without concern even without the proc. I just don't see the huge value of buying a purple here.Originally Posted by ketch
In a vacuum it doesn't seem very effective, but when you consider the other controls layered on top it becomes much better mitigation than you seem to think. With Mass Hypnosis going first, you've already taken out a portion of the spawn. Anyone not hit with Terrify won't be firing back. Confuse a boss or lieutenant. They're out. Terrify. One fifth of the enemies fall without firing back. When they recover, there's a good chance they'll immediately begin to cower. Even if some fire back, you've spaced out the damage a bit instead of taking one giant alpha.
It really is one of those things that seems better in practice rather than in principle.
Anyhow, I'm probably arguing way too much about this here - I think the point I was making about ranged defense is much more important than this one slot.
Speaking of which, I think Nemu's build is off in a few ways - in particular, why take 5 of a purple set and pass on the sixth one which gives you 5% ranged defense? That's a head slapper to me. Also not taking the Steadfast +3 and slotting Fog for Resist instead of defense - it's like tossing valuable defense out the window. I know I'm worshipping at the altar of defense here, but if the cost isn't too high, why not take it? And again, I'd want more recharge in powers like ice storm, sleet and terrify. On the plus side, I really like the ice APP with mind/cold both thematically and for doing lots of AoE, which mind's weak in. All the APP's are great for Controllers, though, so that's a subjective call. -
I play tanks terribly in the traditional sense, since I play them like a low damage, impossible to kill scrapper in permalock. In fact, if things are hairy, I often have no idea if my teammates are alive or dead, since my eyes are permanently fixated on my blue and green bars and the recharge rates of my powers. My best indication as to whether teammates are alive or dead is often the rate at which stuff is dying around me.
Nonetheless, it is possible to have 'Tanklock', where even the unkillable tank bites off a bit too much. Usually for me these moments are when I think 'I'll just round up up the entire mission's worth of Nemesis', forgetting things like 'the aggro cap' or 'Vengeance stacking 12 times'. -
Quote:I think sapping works fine as an additional form of mitigation with power sink on my elec tank, but on a Controller, I'm much more suspicious. With Containment and without real defenses, a Controller wants to, you know, control stuff, rather than get some soft mitigation, with which he will still die, at least solo.Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I hope not. I hate all my experiences with End Drain being weak everywhere else in the game.
Lewis -
I know I sounded awfully negative, and I'm clear that some of the differences in outlook here are on different ways we'd play the toon. Reviewing a few of your points:
--Sleet - I'm not quite sure how you get one recharge IO saving only one second on Sleet - If I take mine out on Mids, I lose about 5 seconds, and my recharge is pretty high. Five seconds is a huge deal to me in this power, since I want to be throwing it out all the time.
--Terrify, another power I want to use all the time - taking out a recharge IO costs me close to 4 seconds.
--I should note that as far as the Medicine pool goes, I could see it having utility on teams - soloing, absolutely not.
--Levitate Slotting - Hey, if it's unorthodox, but if it works for you, go crazy. I would never do an attack chain like that soloing, but if you're just going for max mitigation in a team setting, maybe it's fine.
--Ragnarok - In a team setting, I don't get this, since Terrify isn't going to be an opening up power for the team (On TFs, your no defense Controller shouldn't be doing any opening attacks other than those that don't bring aggro (confuse/sleep)), and the damage isn't going to be heavy enough to pull aggro to you anyway. What Terrify I think will be for you is a decent source of extra damage and a great, damage reducing soft control - I really don't see a 20% knockdown rate providing any real mitigation here.
Put another way, it's not enough mitigation that I would let my no defense controller get whacked by an entire spawn by attacking it fresh, and if the spawn in engaged/confused, you don't need a bit more instant mitigation - Terrify will do that over the long haul by having the whole team get attacked a lot less. If you don't want the recharge, you might as well take a damage proc, imo.
--Snowstorm - hey if you're confident enough in your endurance management, go for it. Still too situational for my taste - I'd probably use it on Nemesis and not much else.
--Power Blast - Incidentally, as far as attacks, I forgot to mention Power Blast - I again don't like Devastation - Decimation, Thunderstrike and Apocalypse are all better options, IMO.
--Defense - This relates to why I was calling parts of the build misguided - I just think ranged defense is such a better bonus than HP/Regen for this toon - it will do a much better job keeping you alive. Thunderstrike is a pretty cheap set for all your attacks, and it will incidentally get your accuracy up for all your AoE's that can really use it. I understand that going for some ranged defense here is boring and unoriginal, but it will work better. You already have a leg up with the 5% in Coercive Persuasion.
I also consider it fairly criminal in any kind of expensive build not to have the +3 def Steadfast in there somewhere - you've got 3 resist powers to choose from. I'd also have more defense in Arctic Fog. Well slotted fog, a couple thunderstrike sets, steadfast, coercive, a basilisk set and you're close to 25% ranged def right there and you've put maybe two more slots and zero new power choices to make that happen.
All that defense stuff is cheap though - you can switch to it pretty easy if you find yourself dying a lot with the build you've got now.
Anyhow, trying to give you some things to think about - sorry if I came off as too much of a hater - if your build really works for you, please post back - I'm always very interested in other Mind/Cold controllers, since I see them so rarely. -
As a Mind/Cold player myself, I'd never use anything like this build in a million years.
I have completely different goals - I'm much more of a solo player than a TF player - but even so, I think much of the build is misguided/executed even for what it's trying to accomplish.
--The slotting for Sleet seems pretty bad. What you need here is recharge, recharge, recharge, maybe with some procs thrown in. Slotting a lot for defense debuff is a waste. Picking the most expensive of all the damage procs as the one to use also seems wasteful.
--Your slotting for Terrify seems underpowered for recharge. Ragnarok knockdown is a total waste - use an IO recharge instead with Positron. Why do you need to knock down something that's terrified?
--If you plan to do any amount of serious soloing, don't skip Mesmerize. It's perhaps your most essential power when soloing.
--Snowstorm? I don't like it on Mind/Cold, and I really hate it ten times more on a build that's skipping stamina. You want to spend your precious endurance on this hog?
--Regen bonuses? Aid Self? Stimulant? I find my Mind/Cold is basically at full health 99% of the time, and the other 1% he's dead. It's very rare that you heal through anything.
--Related to the above, I don't like the slotting on Dominate. Getting Regen and HP bonuses? You're building for +recharge, you have just 3 LotG 7.5x; why not use 4 Basilisks on this, pick up another 7.5 recharge, and use the last 2 for damage?
--I don't think you need the damage proc in unbreak/constraint - 5% toxic isn't so necessary, and you can help the hold/recharge in the power with the last slot.
--Kinetic Crash in Levitate is cute but not really effective for the power. Who am I to say no if you want to toss stuff way up in the air, and I know the set's good, but stuff like damage and recharge matters more. I take Thunderstrike here, but since you're going for Recharge over Defense, how about Decimation?
Sorry to be so negative - I'd just really take a close look at some of the slotting and set choices. You're working very hard for Recharge, and yet you're very careless about actually slotting for Recharge in many of the powers that are actually going to want it (Sleet, Terrify). You're spending a lot of influence here - make it go a long way. -
Quote:Kind of, yeah. More like Controllers are the most powerful class that has Debuffs, and Dark is the most powerful Debuff set, so combining chocolate and peanut butter here is likely to result in the new fotm. Or maybe not, since most fotm toons are characterized by huge damage, not the huge survivability provided by Dark.Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
It sounds like your point is basically that Dark Miasma is overpowered in any AT that it is given to, and thus it should not be given to Controllers just because it is best that for now it's the one AT that doesn't get overpowered by it. -
Quote:The point you make regarding the hold times of Controller hold times is an excellent one - that Controllers get longer hold times in a secondary power than Defenders get in their primary is quite silly.Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The debuffing effects for Dark would be less for a Controller, and Dark, unlike Rad, has almost no offensive bonuses to offer. Defense is ALL that it does, outside of the -Res in Tar Patch.
A /Dark Controller, as far as debuffs go, would be identical to having a /Dark Corruptor on the team. And all Controllers have the ability to stack control on top of the support capabilities of the Secondary. The only place that's unique to /Dark or /TA is where you can stack the control effects across the Primary and Secondary. (And the Controller would actually have stronger holds in either Dark or TA than either the Defender or Controller)
That the Secondary would be equivalent to a Dark Corruptor - well, exactly. Dark Corruptors are the best Corruptors there are, IMO, and Corruptors can't hold a candle to Controllers in either soloability or team effectiveness (a Corruptor's scaled down Blaster damage isn't better than a Controller primary, unless you're just a terrible Controller). -
Quote:You're pretty much right here, Tex - I was just making a basically off topic observation about how Defenders simply aren't as good as Controllers. I do think Dark on Controllers steering into overpowered territory, not so much because it stacks control, but because it's just so darn good at debuffing. If you can control everything, and debuff everything, it's hard to see how your team takes damage. Yes, you can make the same argument for Rad (and Rad is obviously one of the top couple control secondaries), but Dark is even better, IMO. Who needs any other support? Just bring along an x/Dark Controller.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I disagree. At least partly. An AT should not be defined by what powersets it gets that others don't. How is a Force Field or Storm Defender helped because Dark isn't available to Controllers? The answer is they aren't. If Defenders need help (and IMO, actually, they do, even with the new changes) keeping powersets unique to them does nothing for them.
IMO Defenders should get bigger radii on their buffs and debuff AoEs. It will probably never happen but it would be one thing that would kick me into playing Defenders over Controllers. -
If he's going Regen, then I would definitely lean towards something like Cold with passive defenses rather than a healing set. If you're healing atop the regen healing himself, there may be some inefficiency of both of you healing over each other. Also, more healing won't address a challenge of a Regen, surviving a big Alpha, whereas defense shields will do that.
-
If you want an unusual class that is fun to play and makes this quite safe for your friend, I recommend Plant/Cold. Between Seeds of Confusion and the defense shields, the Scrapper won't have much to worry about, and you'll do a lot of damage yourself with plant. At higher levels, Sleet, will speed things up, and Cold, with the shields and debuffs, will also allow your friend to go toe-to-toe against AVs very effectively.
-
Giving Dark to Controllers would be the last piece in the puzzle of having Controllers be superior to Defenders in every way. (I say this as a Controller player, not as a sad troll from the Defenders forum.)