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It would be wasted in Phantasm. Pets do not receive Recharge bonuses, and buffing Recharge to pets has no effect whatsoever. (For example, Speed Boost on a pet will increase its speed and Recovery, but not its Recharge.) And I believe that since the summon Phantasm power itself has no knockback, the proc will not have a chance to proc at summon, either.

Take a look at my Illusion/Rad guide for some suggested slotting. The link to the guide is in my sig.

But "best" and "better" are subjective. If the question was "What power has the best DPE" or something like that, then numbers work. But when you are looking for an overall "best," then playstyle and enjoyment are significant factors in what each person might consider "best." Part of the points I have been trying to make is that the concept of "best" should be broadened to include powersets other than the usual "what does the most damage when you max out everything" discussions.

Based on my experience, Earth is the "best" AoE control set. On my Earth Controllers, I feel that I'm able to do the things that an outstanding controller can bring to a team, controlling almost all of the foes and providing large debuffs to Defense from my primary, plus all the stuff that my secondary brings. The overall benefit to the team is greater, I feel, than if I brought along a scrapper to a team that already does a lot of damage. Some people love Ice controllers for the melee mitigation they can do. Some folks like Electric Control for the layered approach of Sleep+Confuse+Immob+Knockdown+Endurance Drain.

When I started in this game in Dec. 2004, Controllers were the last of the 5 main archtypes I tried because they didn't do any significant damage. I had no way of knowing that Controllers would become my favorite. Folks need to see that there are a lot of options and that "best" for one person may not be "best" for another.

Earthquake controls bosses with knockdown. Volcanic Gasses controls bosses by stacking the holds -- each pseudopet geyser is mag 3 but will stack if the holds overlap as long as the power is slotted for hold duration. (Add Quicksand or Stone Cages to keep the bosses in the patch.) Stone Cages has a 50% chance to immobilize a boss. Stone Prison is Mag 4, with a 20% chance for Mag 5, so it will immobilize a boss in one shot. Fossilize is Mag 3 with a 20% chance to add an extra Mag 1 to hold a boss. Stalagmites has a 20% chance to stun a boss. Salt Crystals has a 50% chance to sleep a boss. Quicksand also affects bosses. All that information is on City of Data.

Is that "reliable?" I would say so, but you may not. My experience with Earth control is that bosses and all other foes are usually controlled reliably by layering controls. Once in a while, a boss gets through, but that's not very frequent.

I have been the only controller on a lot of fast moving, experienced teams going through ITFs and STFs and LGTFs. I have felt that my Earth/Rad or Earth/Storm contributes more to the team than my Fire/Rads (I have two of them at 50 on different servers) or my Plant/Rad. The Plant/Kin, on the other hand, spends most of her time buffing the heck out of the team and not controlling much, but those buffs result in a huge increase in speed. On the ITF, my Ice/Storm provides a huge contribution since the foes in that TF resist most controls other than knockdown and slow, and he has lots of knockdown and slow.

On the other hand, if I stack my Fire/Rad with other Fire/Rads, then the Fire/Rads are amazingly effective.


I did not make anything up. I specifically stated that it was my interpretation of what you were saying, but I acknowledged that you did not specifically say it. That's about as fair as I can be. I did not insult you in any way or say anything "false." When I comment on what someone has said on the forums, I usually quote the entire post to make sure that nothing is taken out of context. I rarely pick and choose parts of what was said. In this case, I was summarizing my interpretation of your comments, but made it clear that it was my interpretation.

If my interpretation was wrong, then go ahead and explain what you meant. But don't indicate that I said anything "false" when I was stating my opinion.

You may have a super-mega Recharge build, and that's great. That kind of build goes outside of the points I was trying to make, which was that controllers intended for team support can be better for large teams than controllers focused on damage.

But there are a few times when you may not have enough control on a Plant Controller . . . like when the group is too spread out to be caught in your Seeds cone, or a fight where there are lots of Adds, or where you have a lot of bosses. An Earth Controller can handle those situations with two of its three AoE controls being "persistant" controls instead of "one-shot" controls. Electric and Ice both have continual control powers and persistant controls vs one-shot powers. Certainly a high-recharge build lets you provide a lot more control than a Plant control normal build . . . but part of the point of the game is to level up and play characters before they get to that end-game build.

There seems to be a frequent attitude that low-damage controllers are somewhat useless. I'm just trying to suggest that low damage controllers can be very effective on larger teams, even without a "tankmage" build.

This is, I think, part of the root problem that Mental Maden has been objecting to on the Forums for a while. Not everyone is aiming for "power performance" in the incarnate trials. Many of the posts in this forum only discuss characters who have been Min-Maxed with the extremely expensive IO sets, PvP sets, and all Tier 4 Incarnates. Many of the posts act as if the only way to make a decent controller is to make a "tankmage" with capped defense. Sure, it is nice to have some characters who are designed that way. But other controllers are fun, too. And they can provide a substantial contribution to a team that will vary depending upon the team make-up and playstyles. Those can be great characters.

Well, except Gravity. Gravity sucks.

(Actually, I had a lot of fun leveling up my Grav/Storm . . . but it was definitely sub-par in terms of "performance," and I don't really plan on doing another Gravity unless the Devs proliferate Traps.)

No, I wouldn't say that's one situation -- it is a lot of situations. Depending upon your playstyle, it may be most situations. Not everyone plays a level 50+1 Controller fully tricked out with all the highest and best IOs and tier 4 Incarnates. And even then, some folks build their controllers to Control for teams, and not as damage dealers. Not everyone builds controllers to be softcapped. Leveling up and before the "end game" content, a controller built for team benefit will provide more overall benefit than one built for damage whenever the team has sufficient damage, which is most of the time.

I have been responding to your posts that assert that controllers who do lots of damage are better than low-damage controllers or controllers focused mainly on providing team support. You specifically said, "That's why powersets that offer adequate damage and adequate control are better than those that specialize too heavily in one or the other. They can function well in a wider range of situations and that's more valuable than a slight advantage in one specific case."

Most people in this game play damage-focused characters. That's not exactly surprising, since Damage defeats enemies and all other ATs have a Damage Primary or Secondary, or both. Even high damage controllers (Fire, Plant for AoE; Illusion, Grav, Mind for single target) can't come close to out-damaging the damage dealers ON TEAMS.

Obviously, this is very different solo. In the pre-containment, pre-IO days, soloing a controller was painfully slow. Containment allows a controller to do decent damage when used properly so a controller can solo even before pets. Some high level damage-focused controllers may be able to out-damage a low-damage Defender, but for the most part, any of the damage-dealing characters can out-damage a controller even with Containment.

To show why I disagree with your statement quoted above, take an Earth Controller in general and an Earth/Rad in particular. No question that it is a low damage build, mainly desiged for AoE control and buffing/debuffing. It provides awesome AoE control, some of which will affect bosses (Earthquake + Quicksand, Volcanic Gasses + Quicksand), or with some additional effort, will allow bosses to be controlled (Volcanic Gasses + Fossilize). In some cases, the secondary can have further effect on that ability (Volcanic Gasses + Choking Cloud or EM Pulse, or Stalagmites + a stun from the secondary like Thunderclap). An Earth/Rad can easily be the only controller on a fast team of 8, or even a slow team. Any of the three opening mez powers (Stalagmites+Stone Cages+Quicksand, Earthquake+Quicksand, or Volcanic Gasses+Quicksand) can then be followed up with the great Rad Debuffs. Two of those three AoE controls are persistant -- they continue to operate after the initial casting. The huge -Defense and substantial -Resistance will help the team kill off foes much faster. Keeping the foes in a tight group will also help the foes be defeated faster. AND that's all available leveling up, and not just on a level 50+1 Max IO End Game build. And yet that Earth/Rad controller, with very little damage, has the flexibility to provide all kinds of team benefit. Compare that to a Fire/Rad, who can provide decent control with Flashfire+Fire Cages (but it won't control bosses) or Cinders (will control bosses if combined with Char), but those controls won't be up every group. The slow DoT from Hot Feet is certainly nice for the right situation, and the continual control from Choking Cloud is certainly useful . . . but only if there is enough time. On larger teams, that slow DoT isn't contributing much. Bonfire isn't contributing lots of helpful damage, is it?

I have taken every control primary to 50, except for my level 47 Elec/Rad and my level 45 Mind/FF (but I also have a level 42 Mind/Storm and a level 43 Mind/Energy Dom). I have a few primaries with more than one level 50. I don't claim to be the game's top expert on Controllers, but I would say that I have a lot of experience with them. (I find it somewhat amusing that you claim that I "disregard" some subtle aspects of control sets such as Illusion's ability to handle mez-proof enemies. Uh, have you looked at my Ill/Rad guide? I talk a lot in there about all the benefits of Illusion. After taking Ill/Rad, Ill/Storm, Ill/TA and Ill/Cold all to 50+ and a variety of other Illusion controllers to higher levels, I think I have a pretty good idea of how to play Illusion and its strengths.) I frequently mention in my various posts how controllers have other forms of control other than the classic "hard" controls, and many of these other forms of control work on bosses.

But on larger teams, the Controller rarely has to worry about bosses. The Tanks, Scrappers, Brutes, Blasters, Corrupters, Stalkers and even the Dominators, HEATS and VEATS often focus on taking down the bosses first. So the AoE control that helps the team take down the larger groups of foes faster by keeping them together and debuffing them.

Don't misunderstand me . . . I like builds that are flexible enough to solo, small team and large team. My Ill/Rad guide specifically states that flexibility is one of the main strengths of an Ill/Rad. But the general tone of your post is "if your controller can't do a lot of damage, then your controller sucks" is not right. (You did not specifically say that, but I think that's a reasonable interpretation of your comments.) Low Damage Controllers focused on supporting a team can be optimal in the right situation, and that "right situation" is quite common.

Because the Chance for Build Up is actually slotted in the power itself, it works for PA. If you keep an eye on the pet window, you will see the Build Up icon show up frequently.

You have partially made my point. You said "mine puts out enough control to deal with three or four x8/+0 spawns solo . . ." You are trying to compare solo damage to team effectiveness. The problem is that the key power, Seeds, is a one-shot. Once you have used it, you are out of luck until it recharges. Yes, you have other options . . . Vines (but another one-shot with a long recharge), Creepers (doesn't really provide full control, moves slowly from group to group). The same thing happens with a Fire Controller -- once Flashfire is used, you are limited to an AoE Immob and a long-recharging PB AoE Hold.

What I'm saying is that on a fast moving team, that's not enough. The team doesn't need your damage -- they can kill stuff a lot faster than you can with your slow DoT from Roots or Hot Feet. They need control -- to keep the foes in one place, to keep the foes from attacking the squishier teammates, to reduce the damage taken by even the tougher teammates. They need buffs and debuffs so they are free to use their plentiful damage. They can kill stuff faster than you, and you can help them kill stuff faster with your controls and buffs/debuffs.

With your Plant/Storm: Assume you use Seeds, Roots on the first group, but in seconds, the team has wiped out that group. Maybe you got off Freezing Rain or maybe you didn't. By the time you get to the next group, Seeds hasn't recharged yet, so you might use Vines, and Freezing Rain if it is available. Now that group is wiped out, and Seeds still isn't back yet. Creepers? OK, that will provide some mitigation, but it certainly isn't complete. Next group, Creepers is creeping behind you, not there in time to help. Seeds might be up by then, so you use it. Next group, you don't have Seeds, Vines, Creepers . . . the best you can do is throw out Roots and use your secondary. That DoT from Roots isn't doing much for the team.

Compare that to, say, an Ice Controller. First group, Ice Slick then run in with Arctic Air. Next group, Ice Slick is recharging, but there's Glacier and still Arctic Air. Next group, you still have Arctic Air, so you follow the tank as soon as he grabs aggro. Next group, you still have AA and a few other tricks (like Frostbite, or even Flash Freeze). AA mitigates about 60-70% of the damage on melee teammates and it is always up. And that's not even taking into account the secondary.

Earth has three types of AoE control, one of which is usually up for the next group, with some other tricks always up (Quicksand, Stone Cages) for the next group. Electric has the sleep patch, Jolting Chain and the endurance drain toggle which are up pretty much for every group. Again, the secondary can make a big difference.

The point I'm making is that controllers are often, especially on big teams, better off being controllers than damage dealers.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree, especially with that last statement. When I play my Earth/Rad or Earth/Storm on teams, I can provide far more control than Plant, Fire or Illusion. On a team that already has high damage, especially lots of ranged AoE damage, that ability to provide large amounts of control and debuff is far, far more important that if I was on a controller who focused more on damage and less on control. In my experience, Controllers who provide control over damage are more valuable on larger teams. (I have run my Earth/Storm on several TFs lately. When the team has plenty of damage, that's my favortie controller to use. If the team is a bit light on damage, I can pull out my Plant/Kin.)

On a lot of TFs, my Earth Controllers have been the only controller on a fast team. They didn't need damage, as there was already plenty of teammates who could kill things much faster than any controller. They needed a controller to keep the foes in place and keep the foes from doing damage to the team. The same thing works with Ice and Electric controllers. I have even been on Fire and Plant controllers where my controls were far more important than my damage . . . but both of those sets give up some added control for damage -- both have one-shot primary control powers that, once used, take a while to recharge (They also have an AoE Hold, but again, on a long timer). Earth and Mind have three AoE control options, at least one of which will be up virtually all the time. Ice and Electric have continual toggles. Illusion has PA and Spectral Terror, but Illusion is kind of a special case.

Those controllers who do more damage sacrifice some control. On large teams who already do a lot of AoE Damage, those controllers contribute less than controllers who can provide a lot of control.

It would probably work best as a Dominator Secondary. The pistol for the ranged attacks and the sword for the melee attacks.

There are controllers that can do damage, sure. But I wouldn't call it "ridiculous" when compared to many Blasters or Scrappers or Brutes or even some Corrupters. The image of a controller as a damage dealer mainly comes from the ability to control AND Buff/debuff AND do damage in relative safety while solo. Most higher level damage from controllers is either AoE Damage over time (Fire, Plant) or single target (Illusion, Gravity, Mind). An AT designed for damage (which is pretty much all the others), will be able to put out more damage, especially when benefitting from the controls and buffs/debuffs that a controller can use to boost that other AT's damage production.

Some controller combos can put out a "ridiculous" amount of damage, like a team of Fire/Rads. Controllers act as a force multiplier, so when that multiplier is, itself, multiplied, it becomes far more powerful. But on a standard team, a controller will provide more benefit to the team's overall speed by focusing on controls and buff/debuff than on damage. If your Plant/Storm focuses on controlling groups and debuffing so that the damage-focused teammates can wipe out those groups faster and in more safety, you will be providing more benefit to the team than if you went out on your own doing damage like a rogue scrapper.

My Plant/Kin can put out a lot of damage solo. But teamed with a Scrapper or Blaster with good AoE damage, and the overall damage more than doubles. When I rolled up my Plant/Kin, I had planned with a buddy to make the character as part of a duo with an Elec/Shield scrapper. Together, their damage output was far, far more effective than my Plant/Kin on its own.

I'm with Mental Maden . . . this is not understanding the role of a controller. You have one powerset designed for control. You have a secondary designed for buff/debuff. Neither of the powersets are desiged as damage.

The true power of a controller is to support a team. Control + Buff/Debuff means that the damage dealers can wipe things out more quickly while taking less damage. Some of the higher level stuff has been designed to lessen the effect of controls . . . because Controllers were too good. Yes, controllers can be very effective solo, and can be tricked out with IO sets to have greater survivability, but the clear design of the AT is to support a team.

Earth/Time may seem to have "too much control," but Earth/TA is in the same category and plenty of folks love the extreme amount of control for that combo. Frankly, I can see some nice synergy with just about every primary. Fire, Ice and Elec for the extra PB AoE toggle. Other sets for the added control and debuffs.

But then, I have already reserved my name for my Ill/Time.

It is a click power, not a toggle! (I know you know that!)

With the Clarion Destiny power, Psi becomes far less appealing. Many folks are now building for Defense, and look for a Defense-based armor. Good Defense will also deflect mez attacks.

Back in the days before Containment, Controllers were horribly slow to solo, and many Controllers didn't ever solo until they got their pets. The damage that most Controllers did was pitiful. Containment fixed this and allowed Controllers to do a somewhat decent amount of damage. That's why Containment was added.

As others have pointed out, Accuracy has an absolute cap of 95%, so all that extra accuracy is mostly wasted.

Just get a Stone/Fire tank up past 38, turn on Granite, turn on Mud Pots and put Fire Sword Circle on Auto.

Just follow my Ill/Rad guide . . .

I already have a name reserved for my Ill/Time controller.

Deceive, if used actively and smartly, will not result in any kind of significant reduction in XP earned. (The term "lose XP" is wrong because you never earned it.) However, if you want to Deceive things and then sit back and watch . . . you WILL earn less XP, mostly because you are sitting around and watching the foes kill each other.

What you have posted in your build is the Miracle proc + Miracle Health, the Numina Proc and the Regen Tissue proc. Take a look in Mids -- if you replace the Regen Tissue proc with a Numina's Health, you will result in more Regen than using the Regen proc. You lose nothing and gain more Regen (which was the purpose of the Regen proc). You can leave the Miracle Health in there.


The endurance cost of these powers is minimal, and slotting for EndRdx gives you very little benefit. CJ uses only .07 Endurance, and your extra slot reduces that by .02, which is not worth a slot in my opinion. Hover is .2, and the slot reduces it to .15, which is still not worth a slot. If you want the Regen bonus for 2 LotG, then I would go with the pure Defense over the Def/EndRdx. Or you could use those two slots for IW. Or you could pull two slots out of Spectral Terror.

Your build has IW up for 90 second and recharging in 113.8 seconds, for 23.8 seconds of down-time. Put two Recharge in IW, and your recharge changes to 90.1 seconds, or .1 second of down time (assuming you can keep Hasten and AM up at all times). That seems to me to be a pretty good use of two slots.

OK, I had to respond to this -- since Controllers are by far my favorite AT. The problem you have is that you chose a primary/secondary combo that (a) has some synergy issues and (b) is more single-target focused in the primary.

If you are the primary controller for a team with Kinetics as a secondary, I would suggest Fire/Kin, Plant/Kin, Ice/Kin, Elec/Kin, and then maybe Earth/Kin. Fire/Kins are known as great farmers, but a team-focused Fire/Kin can be extremely effective providing team-oriented control with AoE damage. Plant/Kin has great AoE control to go with very good AoE damage. My problem on my Plant/Kin is trying to balance my controlling and buffing sides -- I always have more stuff to do than I have time.

As for a secondary for a Kinetics Defender -- a Kin/Sonic team-oriented Defender, combined with teammates with lots of AoE, will cause the foes to melt. Sonic's Resistance Debuffs to go with the damage buffs from Kinetics result in massive amounts of damage. My buddies and I put together a superteam which included a tank to gather aggro, two Kin/Sonics and the rest were AoE controllers, blasters and a scrapper. That team destoyed every bit of content the game offered at the time.

Don't give up on Controllers based upon one build that wasn't exactly ideal for your purposes. Controllers are more varied than any other AT, in that some of them are entirely focused on support, while others can put out lots of damage. (Controllers are Control/Support, while every other AT in the game has at least one powerset focused on damage.)

The list of actors I listed were "A" list people from the 50's and 60's. Most of them have a Star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and there were many awards won by them including 4 Oscars, a Golden Globe and many other nominations. But Hollywood didn't have the same pay scales they do today, so by the time of the late 70's, those performers were usually found in the latest mega-disaster movie or in an episode of "Love Boat" just to get a paycheck.

I wasn't using Showgirls as an entry into this category (although Kyle McLaughlin has been a decent actor), but as an example of a really BAD movie compared to almost all of the films others have listed.

I fully agree! Berry is very attractive, but not a very good actress. Catwoman is among the worst 5 Comic Book Movies ever made.

My understanding was that it was a Travolta vanity project due to his devotion to the Scientology "church." The book, oddly enough, was actually a pretty entertaining (if somewhat silly) read -- rather simplistic and very similar the the kind of "pulp" fiction popular when L. Ron Hubbard first became known as an adventure writer, long before he fabricated the Scientology "church."