Leo_G

I've been trying to wrap my head around exactly what that does but it's kind of weird thinking about it. Like, the debuff to defense mods, does that mean it's defense powers buff less? And the debuff to ToHit mods, is that +ToHit buffs and -ToHit debuffs? What exactly does that entail for the foes?

The way you stated it before, and the many times I and others have replied to your rebuttals, made it sound like an absolute statement that there was no situation where KB is better. But if that's not what you're saying, that's fine by me. I'll just keep finding way to prove the naysayers otherwise.

Like last night, got on a radio team and was running a lvl 37 freak mission on my lvl 30 Arch/Dev blaster. I had recently just got trip mines and it's been forever since I played with them, needless to say I wasn't getting much milage out of them.

I'd basically set a mine out, back up, throw caltrops and just fire at foes while the team rushed in. If anything decided to come after me (not likely without rain of arrows), they'd eat a mine on the way. Despite that, every time it seemed things ran *around* my mines or ran past them so fast they triggered the explosion without getting the damage.

After getting rather frustrated, I just set down the mine just before the team rushed in, then ran past the spawn and just Exploding Arrowed the mob, sending some back to blow up in my mine. Some of the team didn't even know I was doing that until I pulled the strategy out on a lone Freak Tank after he rezzed. The ones that saw it complemented the shot although for that one, it was pure luck the KB procced on that single target.

Yeah, can't really do that with KD.

Twilight Shield?

You mean Twilight Grasp?

That actually sounds pretty good though, not too overpowered and just enough support to at least say "I'm helping!!" The self support is also a combo of team and pure self buffs that probably make them out to be as strong for survival as a standard scrapper but busy enough that it can't focus on DPS. Perhaps make their melee on par with/just above Tankers (maybe at Stalker level) but reign in their damage cap.

Dark Servant might be a bit too strong, but I guess when you're trying to form such a set, you have to ask:

What powers exemplify [insert support set]? You probably play Dark Miasma for Dark Servant, right? And Tar Patch, right? Well, I guess the approach would be to divide the support set's powers into 3 categories: set defining, bread and butter and finally utility/skippables.

For Dark Miasma/Dark Affinity, that'd be:

Set Defining
Dark Servant
Howling Twilight
Soul Absorption (?? never played Affinity)

Bread and Butter
Tar Patch
Twilight Grasp
Darkest Night
Fearsome Stare
Fade (?? never played Affinity)

Utility/Skippable
Shadow Fall
Petrifying Gaze
Black Hole


From there, you kinda sorta have to pick from each category and you can't have just all the set definers or all the bread and butter, you have to keep a balance. Leaving out Howling Twilight, Tar Patch, Fearsome Stare and Darkest Night seems like a good call. Adding in Shadow Fall, while not bad is still a bit on the upside of strong. Keeping Dark Servant while also having Soul Absorption might be pushing it, especially for an AT that's probably namely suppose to be backup support to smooth out the team's capabilities.

Now swapping Dark Servant for Soul Transfer, might seem like a 'bleh' move, it does fit the theme and limits the amount of control and debuffs quite a bit...but does that ruin the player's desire to play a melee dark miasma user? Probably. I dunno.

What? Did they can the new Primalist AT?

On the topic, the only suggestion i'd make for new ATs is that they don't marginalize other ATs that share power sets.

For example, I want a melee/support AT but don't want to eek out corr or def as a source of support and damage. So expand the AT sideways and give them decent self survival like masterminds are. Rather than giving this new AT really low mods for support, just don't give them every support tool. In exchange, give them armor to sustain themselves in close range.

Similar with a ranged/armor AT, they shouldn't marginalize the rangers, but don't give the AT crappy mods to keep them in check, just reform their playstyle in some fashion as a compromise instead.

Well, 'ice damage' is technically a combination of cold and smashing or cold and lethal depending on the type of ice that's used (sharp ice swords and tiny piercing raining ice pellets will pierce the target while large blunt frost-boxing-gloves and chunks of ice that basically amount to rocks will cause basic striking damage).

I think the reason 'heat' isn't a type is because heat itself is caused by friction which doesn't pertain to what's actually causing it. Other things can (technically) cause heat without friction but they all amount to the same thing:

Electricity is atomic friction of electrons.

Air can cause enough resistance to create heat from molecules.

Smashing something hard enough compresses molecules resulting in heat.

Cold is basically the lack of heat, dispersing heat over a space to lower the temperature.

Cutting things will cause heat since you're basically just forcing a wedge through solid material resulting in heat.

Bullets require combustion to propel them, resulting in heat.

Light is just another form of radiation which extend to the radiation, energy and beam rifle sets which basically set atomic particles into motion to cause friction and heat.

So basically, a lot of things respond to or cause heat. But perhaps not everything causes specifically heat-focused reactions. In CoX, perhaps it'd make somewhat sense to rename 'fire' damage to 'heat' damage but I think it rather undermines the premise of the set itself:

Water is versatile and a conductor of heat. It's not so much that water 'causes fire', but that it causes effects *similar* to fire. It can leave things blanched and scorched just like fire, except with less smoke and charring. Apparently, no other power can cause similarly devastating effects despite being able to create heat themselves.

So I can kind of agree either way (for renaming and not for renaming), but frankly, I like the types the way they are and feel we can just continue with them since going the other way would require redefining the other sets:

Fire = Fire damage + charring (DoT)

Ice = Cold + Smashing or Cold + Lethal damage

Water = Cold + Smashing

Steam = Fire or Fire + Smashing

Just like the energy types are differentiated by their combination of types and effects, the same can be said for the elemental type powers...which kind of makes me wonder what other kind of damage types we can get by combining more types. Hellfire is basically Fire + Toxic....

Not that I don't value others' opinions but...what are you trying to convince of him? That Bonfire with the proc is only a minutely powerful mitigation tool that's still behind your illusion control builds?

I think Warkupo already feels that way. However, the point of his observations you're ignoring is, he's talking about 1 power + 1 extra slot. You're even comparing the overall survivability of an Ill/storm *build* to *ONE* power and *ONE* enhancement.

Warkupo probably already put this in perspective for himself and has built an opinion around that. Not that I completely agree with his opinion wholly, but I am on the side that this tool is on the ridiculous side of the balancing equation.

Either it needs to be changed, or they need to make a fire epic for every AT so everyone can break the game and trivialize the mid-level content. Just make the whole game a cake-walk on a segway.

Energy Blast is the kindergarden of knockback. If you'd have said FF/energy, that's somewhat different.

It's even funnier when people express their opinion on KB as irrevocable fact. It helps identify the players that know what they're doing from the players that are n00bs.

Fun fact, KB is not a 'one sized fits all' tool nor have I ever attributed it as such.

Conversely, attributing KB as a tool best never utilized aptly demonstrates your lack of knowledge and ability.

I'd agree with this. Not that I'm downing on your idea, but I truly do dislike having the game play itself for me.

You know how some players put hasten or clickie mez protection (ex: Practiced Brawler) on auto? Not me, I like clicking my own powers.

As for the prospect of 'Danger Protocols', I don't think it's a bad idea, just maybe not exactly as described. Would I want the game to use a purple inspiration just because some guy capped me with a pistol and debuffed me by a tiny bit? Or even if it was a significant amount, I carry a specific amount of inspirations (or try to) and use them by weighing the situation...the game won't be able to do that for me.

Now some possible protocols I *would* like?

Target mezzed allies. Target allies with a certain amount of health. Target allies (nearest or farthest) that do *not* have buffs by me.

Target nearest boss. Target nearest Lt. Target the foe who last attacked me.

Basically, give me auto options for targeting my powers to better fight or support. But if you find yourself dying very quickly, most likely it isn't something you can prevent with a click of a button. Powers and things still require activation to take effect and if the damage you receive is *during* that activation, most likely it's too late. Basically, to prevent such from happening, you have to actively take measures *beforehand* either through preparation or predictive actions. You'll have to click that respite *before* the foe queues up their next volley and the only way to know that is to know your character as well as the game.

I think I've done this before.

With my Fire/Storm/Soul corruptor who happens to have the concealment pool for Phase Shift. Didn't take stealth because she already has stealth from Steamy Mist, so got Grant Invisibility.

While a stray AoE might take it out, that's if the foe gets a chance to fire it...then it'll probably miss anyway.

We're in a semantics battle now.

One metric of the game that is balanced is risk vs reward. Sometimes I wish my Lightning Storms would still fire at the enemy while I casually filed my nails around a corner, but it doesn't.

The devs aim to require you to put yourself at risk of retaliation for the rewards of damage or XP/drops and when one can obtain such without retaliation, it's often balanced for. I can confuse foes and they kill each other with *zero* chance of them harming me...but I get no xp for it. I can fire an attack from around a corner without the foe having a chance to shoot back but I probably won't be able to do so very often.

Now, any simple schmoe can disable a crowd of enemies of *brokenly* large sizes indefinitely without effort or retaliation with but 1 power and 2 slots...


Oh, the power won't be nerfed. Bonfire will still retain its awesomeness of area denial while not being a brain-dead choke point power that also happens to be capable of killing things.

Hmm, why can't players with Bonfire use it like players with caltrops or hurricane? Throw it down and stand on it = anti-melee shield.


[quote] Yeah, I would.

Because a Brute without mez protection, slotted shields and slotted attacks = dead. At minimum, a Brute will have to take 6 powers (2 shields + mez protection, heal/utility + 2 attacks) and 12 slots to even survive let alone kill anything (well, there was one guy who got to lvl 50 with the only attack being Brawl...but then he had it fully slotted too).

Bonfire with 1 extra slot? Equates to more than an armor set of powers + at least 1 attack.

ZOMG! Tater Todd disagrees!!

Welp, I guess I'd better pack up and join the bandwagon then

KB is KB even if it's AoE (so long as it's not less than 100% chance). If a player can use an AoE attack on a single target when the situations deems so, the same can be said for various forms of control. Because I can use Gale to occupy a boss despite it being an AoE KB power.



You're making assumptions. 'Getting foes off an ally' is the premise which doesn't directly pertain to using melee or ranged attacks. The ally could be getting mezzed and/or slowed because he's up to his neck in enemies...









Unless you lock foes in place, the game AI provably shows you wrong. Foes move around, mezzes have different reactions on their placement and their pattern of movement is not always direct. If you're faced with a situation where the foes trigger their afraid AI, KD will only keep them in place so long...or if their AI deems they stay away, KD will not move them closer.

The only way to accomplish this is breaking LoS, teleporting them, taunting them (with -range) or tactical KB. KD won't do a damned thing if they aren't already huddled together and most of those choices (outside of taunt) is slower.



More assumptions. No one mentioned damage. If you're trying to stay alive and you're stuck between a rock and a crowd of angry punching mobs, KD will stop the foe momentarily but unless *you* move right after, it will be for naught. And with the prevalent of -movement debuffs, sometimes jumping/running isn't the greatest option.



Apparently PBAoE KB, in any context, is perma. It's always going. Everytime a melee foe is in range *BAM* PBAoE KB. Any time you're ready to use an AoE *BAM* PBAoE KB. Nope, it's not possible to choose when to use it because that time is perpetual.

I guess if PBAoE KB really truly makes killing everything 'much harder' then maybe you're confusing PBAoE KB with 'Perpetual' Based AoE KB.



The only annoying teammates I encounter are the haters that don't have the mad skillz of a proper player that can utilize their given tools properly.

And you're the one bringing in 'right' or 'wrong' opinions. I'm simply stating facts. KB is versatile. You can even change it into KD with but a simple change of position.

Mezzes are a problem of all ATs without direct protection available. This may also be rebalanced on the critter AI side rather than giving the ATs direct counters to it. Even still, there may be room for another direct or indirect counter to that situation.

But I do agree with the better mods for controls and debuffs. Doms have pretty good debuffs from their powers...or at least powerful means of spreading those debuffs and controls through potent powers like AoE controls and such. Blasters, on the other hand, don't have as many tools to debuff or mez. If their mods were at least improved to give what limited powers they could leverage an edge, it could turn the survival tide to bring them closer to Doms (and yes, I think Blasters should have *at least* close to the same survivability as Doms since Doms, frankly, are probably one of the more directly powerful (MMs are more indirectly powerful, using pets as a proxy) ATs in the game).

Frankly, I feel Controllers get to have their cake and eat it too. They already have the best mods for controls and decently high mods for buff/debuffs. They also get a defensive inherent (Overpower) and an offensive one (Containment) that really push them into the realm of 'too much'.

If we're to add anything to them, I'd probably aim for something QoLish.

*shrugs*

One possible point to aim for is their stealthy side. As is, the new changes make any sort of 'stalkerish' playstyle unattractive compared to just scrapping. Even before the change, using the 'sneak attack' method wasn't *that* attractive but it had its perks like demoralize. Now? Demoralize, Placate and even Hide are mostly obsolete.

Aiming to deepen that side of gameplay may be a good direction.

Again, I mainly don't see a need to grant ATs more needless power *BUT* there's always the avenue of concept and theme. One theme that MMs usually plays out is the whole 'villainous taskmaster' concept. Not saying all MMs draw upon that concept, but mechanically, that's exactly what MMs do: exploit expendable minions...

Again, there's always the avenue of concept and theme. What *is* a corruptor or a dominator? What do their powers conceptualize? Aiming toward this could be a possibility.

As for the suggestions, might I suggest, rather than a pool of powers one chooses from a pool unique to each AT, what about a list of upgrades/alterations to the AT's inherent?

Just for an example:

<<Dominators>>
Domination = Nothing delights a Dominator more than inflicting pain. When a Dominator attacks, his sadistic nature grows. When your Domination bar is over 90% you can activate this power to unleash his true potential.

1. Sadist: Acts like current Domination.
2. Bondage: Choosing this option changes Domination into a toggle. While Domination.Bondage is inactive, you receive a scaling +duration to your mez powers as well as a +1 mag chance dependtant on the level of your Domination bar. Only after building the bar can you activate Domination.Bondage. This power grants a -duration to your mez powers but allow for Double-Hit to all your assault powers. This grants weaker protection from mez but high amounts of resistance. Bondage cost no endurance and can be run continuously but when you turn it off, it must recharge and you must build Domination again.
3. Pain and Pleasure: Domination becomes a passive. For every attack and mez you use, you build your domination bar. While you are targeted by mez, your domination bar goes down until it completely empties. While the bar is not empty, you can ignore the effects of mez as well as gain a measure of absorb for every attack you use. While your bar is empty (or below 25%), you gain no absorb for your attacks but your mezzes have a heightened chance of causing double-mag mez.

Could think of it as a 'choose your inherent' type deal as you can only pick one at a time. It could fulfill the needs of more players that generally like the powerset combos of an AT but not how it plays. For instance, altering MM Supremacy/Bodyguard into something more self-focused (think 'heroic MM').

That seems a reasonable compromise as well.

Like was said, in simple click powers like Gale, Force Bolt, Solar Flare and in pets like Lightning Storm, Thugs, Robots, etc, there doesn't seem a shift in balance and work just fine. But some powers were designed around knockback so have to be considered separately.

Thank you. I don't see why so many people look down on KB like they do. Understandable that you don't *like* KB but that doesn't make it bad.

I think the main point is, people want to exploit the powers as damage tools *and* mitigation tools. It'd be fair if it took planning, positioning and a combo of strategic tools and the right enemy, but this proc just makes encounters a joke...with no other effort but to slot an enhancement.


Just add suppression to those effects. Might have an averse effect on quickly recharging KB powers (I can only think of force bolt), but if that doesn't work, simply change the way the enhancement applies its buffs.

Beyond that, like was mentioned before, replacing persistent KB with the chance after the first pulse?

Glad this was an awarded enhancement. No one can really complain if the devs change it later since there's no buyer's remorse or any of that mess.

I think the other obvious nerf is to just make the KB conversion an actual proc rather than some kind of set bonus. Make it so the KB conversion is 100% on powers that KB but, in powers that persist like toggles and passives, the conversion only occurs on 10 second tics like any other proc.

For the purpose of the proc, it should be slottable in powers that really do damage.

It should also convert 100% of the KB into KD when activated.

But I don't see why this proc has to function uniquely by functioning on every tic rather than after every 10 seconds.

Debuffing foes you can't mez (take your pick of any mezzes or debuffs that are PBAoE usable by foes)

Getting foes off allies.

Exploding foes.

Repositioning (lol if you say you can't, I'd assume you don't know how to play Storm)

Getting foes off of you.

PBAoE rezzers.

Tactically used while repositioning yourself (can change KB to KD, disable flying targets (KD only twirls foes in the air, KB sends them down)

Seeds is overpowered too, but namely in duration/recharge. It isn't a persistent effect, must be targeted, can miss and can be resisted (lol Nemesis laugh at seeds).

Bonfire is pretty good, it's auto-hit (or so I'm told), 100% KB and does significant damage to the particular foes that resist KB. Most foes don't resist KB except for significantly strong targets. The question is, is Bonfire and its ilk overpowered vs those hard targets? Not IMO. All it does is some extra dmg and/or some debuffs and in other circumstances, is purely mitigative.

When this IO is introduced, however, it keeps the mitigative effects of the powers, enhances it and allows them to do what they do to AVs/GMs/KB resisters.

Well, those powers also have to be slottable for damage too.

But it has already been expressed that changes will be made.

And Voltaic Sentinel isn't a snipe or a nuke. Are we going to go down the list of powers that certain ATs get more out of over others? Because that's basically how melee ATs are, some sets benefitting certain ATs disproportionately more than others.

See Stalkers with defense.

See Tankers with taunt/aggro.

See Scrappers with +dmg buffs.

See Brute with AoE.

Etc.

If Corruptors can get a slight advantage from using, say, Voltaic Sentinel over a Blaster, it's not the end of the world so long as everyone *is* getting *some* proportional advantage from choosing the power.

Currently? Nukes are all-or-nothing type attacks yet the 'all' part is proportionately weaker for non-Blasters and paying the same debilitating price (crash). This, of course, is disregarding the outlier in the room (Blizzard...but that's in Ice Blast which doesn't have a snipe so it's not like that's one of those complete advantage packages that is being mentioned of the def/corr taking tactics+kisemt for perma-something).

This is what I keep saying. People keep mentioning 'Bonfire needs a nerf' when Bonfire isn't even the problem...or even the only occurrence of this faulty addition.

I happened to get a chance to play my new Beam/Poison Corr last night and joined some vigilante tips with a group of lvl 30+s. It was pretty easy with standard +1 difficulty but after raising the difficulty higher, it was trouble...then vs Nemesis? Might as well have just hit Self Destruct...

Then we got a Fire Dom to join. Wow. Quite ridiculous. Seeing it in action for myself, the mobs really *do* fall in unison (pretty much). It's almost too funny looking to change

So, are you lying or are we just suppose to disregard your opinion on KB being a nerf?

Hasty conclusion.

KD may be better for specific flavors of builds and certain player-driven tactics but weather one is better than the other is purely circumstantial. For any situation where you could say KB is worse than KD, I can easily flip the situation the other way.

So Bonfire without the proc is overowered and needs to be nerfed? Have we stopped listening to ourselves?

Is it just me or is a couple of hours plenty?

Granted, I often play in short sittings every now and then when I get the chance but like to leave myself wanting to play just a bit more before logging. You know? Leave them wanting more? It's how I play my characters too: switch to a new or old alt while you're still interested in the one you're playing.

Got any other examples?

So Defenders and Corruptors get an even *worse* deal.

And nukes will be adjusted. Guess who will do more damage with them.

But it's not just Bonfire...and doing that would be a nerf to the mitigating effects of a power because of a special enhancement...that'd be like nerfing armor sets just because of IO bonuses.