Kurugi
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Posts
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Joined
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Well, I just rebuilt my tanker as a scrapper in mid's just to check the numbers and I can see Umbral's point. With the same sets slotted in the same places I only make it to ~38% S/L defense where my tanker has capped (E/N as well), on top of lower resistances and HP.
I think it probably would be best if I stay with my initial idea and just make a tanker. Thanks again for your advice. -
Quote:Well like I said, I'm not really looking to be a "pseudo-tank", just simply a really durable scrapper, which might seem like a waste since what good is that durability if I'm not even really concerned with getting or keeping aggro?Originally Posted by Umbral
You can get a pretty darn survivable scrapper, but it will always pale in comparison to a similar tanker for 2 very important reasons: base hp and max resistance. While the difference between a defense softcapped Tanker and Scrapper isn't that significant (Tanker is roughly 40% more survivable), it gets much greater when you begin using resistance (at res cap and no +hp, Tanker is roughly 250% more survivable) because Tankers have the 90% +res cap whereas Scrappers are hindered by the 75% +res cap (which I still think should be increased to 85% to match Kheldians and allow them to have higher potential resistance than Blasters/Controllers/Defenders).
The base hp issue simply means that Tankers are going to be healing themselves for more with all of their self heals and that any +hp that a Tanker provides a greater increase to survivability than it does for the Scrapper.
Elec/Invuln could quite easily fulfill a pseudo-tank role, though you'd probably want to get Confront or Provoke to get that last mag 1 needed to Taunt bosses for the team vital aggro management function.
My big issue with designing survivability focused Scrappers is that you might as well just build a Tanker. If survivability is your big concern, go with the AT that actually focuses on survivability and the applications of that survivability more than damage.
As I see it, Scrappers should only focus on survivability only as much as it applies to their own ability to inflict as much damage as possible. If you're sacrificing damage for survivability, you're doing yourself a great disservice. Scrapper survivability exists to allow you to deal damage.
I just figured with the focus of Electric Melee being more on the AoE side I'd end up with some aggro without even trying and for that being survivable would be useful, and in soloing situations. Plus critical hits appeal to me moreso than having a built-in taunt in all of my attacks. -
Quote:Eh, I wasn't really asking which secondary to take as I'm already pretty much set on Invuln, but thanks for your suggestionOriginally Posted by Leandro
By personal experience, a willpower scrapper can tank pretty dang well, and the set is generally regarded as one of the best, if not the best, for defense.
That's a cool way to look at it actually. I think the only real difference here would be that instead of someone else who gets a bunch of +dmg set bonuses I'd be focusing more on getting defense, i.e. slotting Smashing Haymakers/Kinetic Combats (when I can afford them) into my melee attacks vs. slotting a set like Crushing Impact or Touch of Death.Quote:Originally Posted by jwbullfrog
I actually agree with the school of thought that says that a scrapper should be as self sufficient as possible.
I've never been a big fan of "roles" for characters. You know, the "I am a tank therefore I exist to soak damage" or "I am a defender therefore I must never enter melee range" way of thinking.
If you think that this will work well as a Scrapper, go for it. I think it should be reasonably effective for most PvE work.
However, that's not to say that I sacrifice damage. I still feel robbed if I don't reach the ED cap for damage in all of my attacks
I guess the best way to describe what I'm going for is a scrapper that's hard as **** to kill...not necessarily a rigid label like "scranker" or "tapper". -
Reminds me of my exploration adventures in FFXI back when the Chains of Promathia expansion first released. The zones were well designed in that game and there was a lot of cool stuff to see.
I remember one time particular I had heard word that an HNM (equivalent to a Giant Monster I guess) was up in some high level zone and I told my Linkshell (same thing as an SG) I was going to sneak my way there just to see it. It was a giant dragon and dragons were actually quite rare in that game.
My Linkshell didn't think I had a cat in hell's chance of making in, telling me the zone that the HNM was in was insane, but somehow I managed it with only one mishap (my invisible spell wore off at the bottom of this ramp and a demon above me came down and punched me in the face, but luckily I had my self-rez spell on and somehow managed to recover). I made it to the HNM dragon, snapped a few screenshots that I posted on the Linkshell's website, and told my Linkshell "BOOYAH!".
To this day it is one of the funnest and most memorable experiences I've had in any MMO I've played.
But I do agree that such things are hard to replicate. I'm sure that if you went back down into the sewers, Sam, that the journey would become less of an adventure and more of a chore because you've already done it once before and know what's in store (wow did I just go on rhyming spree for a sec?). -
So the original premise of my Electric combatant for Issue16 was that of a tanker, but after getting the costume sorted and actually sitting back and having a think I came to the conclusion that perhaps the mindset for my character would be better suited as a scrapper, which is not to say that I came to this out of distaste for tanking; indeed it has been one of my preferred roles in many MMOs, but something about my hero doesn't scream "I'm the guy all of you must focus on and repeatedly punch and/or blast in the face!". Perhaps this just has to do with my stereotype that all tankers are the giant, burly types who could crush you with the might of their pinky which is a category my prototype hero would not fit into well, but who knows.
However, in a sense that will probably contradict my previous statement, I did like the notion of being a damage soaking juggernaut. So to you I propose my simple question:
How ludicrous would it be to design a scrapper who's main focus was that of damage mitigation? In essence, I will be playing an Elec/Invuln scrapper and the notion of having capped defenses and resistances (S/L at least) appeals to me. Is this a mainstream kind of thing or something more suited to a secondary build used for soloing and other special circumstances? -
I guess that's one way to do a halfassed job
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Quote:There are forums out there where I can't say the word "poopy". I feel so deprivedOriginally Posted by Eva Destruction
Apparently the moderators of this forum feel that homogenized milk is too high in fat, and not wishing to perpetuate the overweight gamer stereotype they have censored it, in the hopes that we will seek out healthier alternatives.
Or, swear filter is silly.
On topic though, I've always liked telling people if for some reason I'm on a female character that I'm actually a G.I.R.L. (Guy In Real Life)
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Just a note on Kinetic Combats, they are extremely expensive. If you are planning to go the S/L defense route Smashing Haymakers are the next best thing and much much cheaper, but you probably wouldn't be able to soft cap as they only give 1.88% S/L defense
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Quote:Yay, someone who finally gets it!Originally Posted by Nethergoat
clearly it is a cancer corrupting our pristine, innocent game!
Oh wait.....Quote:Oh wait..... -
Quote:I voluntarily sat on my butt...Originally Posted by Hellsminion_CoH
Supposedly, its a day for engaging in volunteer work; I did work yesterday, but on my grav/rad troll
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Quote:Labor day. Quite an ironic name for a holiday, hmm?Originally Posted by Heart Attack
What holiday do the US have in September?
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Quote:I agree. I've been playing MMOs for over 6 years now and one common denominator I've always noticed was that people almost always blame the class for their inabilities before themselves.Originally Posted by New Dawn
The mods regard the calling of someone a troll as breaking the forum rules.
Lets say I said that because of my own experiences Elec can't tank. From that you can guarantee half the players reading it, can see that I still haven't learned to play and to top it off I am insulting someone else by limiting them with my lack of intelligence.
In game this is how myths are made, someone says with no authority at all that something needs this or that, or a perfectly doable TF with team that has all the assets within them if they worked together properly is impossible.
My elec will tank.
I'd wager that a hefty percentage of "my class/archetype/power set sucks" claims are really the individual's inability to play said archetype or power set, or the certain playstyle that goes along with the power set just doesn't mesh with their own, but to come forth and tell someone else they shouldn't even play the set is both arrogant and rude IMO. -
Anyone else so excited about what you wanna make after I16 that you don't really have anything else that interests you enough to play until then? I'm itching to make my Inv/Elec tanker w/ purple lightning. Got my build, costume, and name already set up!
I'm just logging in to make as much influence as possible as many others are, except I don't have tons of 50s and the ability to rake in over a billion, but if I can amass 20 million or so by I16 (I have 8) I'll be happy enough
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Quote:*points out that that doesn't disprove my example that Ninjas can indeed be tanks*Originally Posted by Kierthos
*points out that this is City of Heroes*
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Quote:Ninjas make very good tanks in FFXI.Originally Posted by Lohenien
Yes because ninja are very good at tanking...from behind that tree over there...
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Quote:Yeah I knew it was CJ but I intentionally dropped it from the build so I could gain a power slot to take PP and the prereq for it (essentially I dropped CJ and Resist Elements), but there was another 3% missing and for some reason mid's wasn't counting the Steadfast unique in my defenses. Of course, I do admit that when I did have CJ in my build I forgot it wasn't toggled by default... xDOriginally Posted by Call Me Awesome
It's that 2.5% from CJ you're really missing. Taking your build and replacing Hasten/SS with CJ/SJ takes you to the 45% S/L soft cap, actually to 45.1%. You'll need to toggle CJ on in order to see the benefit, that's one of those things that everyone occasionally forgets and make you feel like an idiot when you remember... kind of like hunting around for your car keys and eventually discovering them in your hand
...I think I follow, but damn did I have to read that a few times for it to sink inQuote:It's certainly true that soft capping an Invuln amounts to overkill in most situations thanks to it's high resistances... mathematically however that last 5% of def from 40-45 actually mitigates as much damage as the first 40%. With 40% you've reduced the mob's chance to hit you to 10%... that last 5% to 45% actually cuts that in HALF to 5%.
Still, my reasoning is that yeah I'll get hit ~2% more often w/o CJ but even still the S/L attacks that get through are still only doing 10% of their full damage. -
Quote:Really? I was originally going to have an Elec Brute and the damage seemed at least on par to me. Yeah it lacks in single target damage but I've never looked at it as a single target set.Originally Posted by _Deth_
Yeah, I would try to keep build up on an Elec Melee tank as well. Elec Melee has some of the worst damage of all the brute melee sets, specifically vs. single targets, don't think it went up on tankers.
Yay, a farming machine. Too bad I hate farmsQuote:I personally don't like Resist Elements and Resist Energies, but as with all things, YMMV. I would only take em to make up for set bonuses. Kinetic Combats are expensive, but, I have noticed them dropping a lot more on reward rolls in AE. Especially the harder to come by ones. On my SM/WP brute, I have only bought a couple, most have dropped for me. May be luck, but I'm not that lucky, so...........
Either way, Inv/Elec should be a farming machine, if you decide to IO it out. I wouldn't worry about the costs, you will be able to make it up in spades.
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Quote:Yes I know that. That was a typoOriginally Posted by Sailboat
It's worth noting that there's a set called Kinetic Crash AND a set called Kinetic Combat. You want Kinetic COMBAT for typed defense.
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Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Electric Melee
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temp Invulnerability -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(7), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam(46)
Level 1: Charged Brawl -- S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg(A), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx(11), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/Rchg(11), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(31), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 2: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(3), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Dct'dW-Heal(15), Dct'dW-Rchg(34)
Level 4: Havoc Punch -- S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg(A), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx(5), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/Rchg(5), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(31), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(42)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 8: Unyielding -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), RctvArm-ResDam(17)
Level 10: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(37), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(43), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(46), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(46), Mocking-Rchg(48)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Run-I(A)
Level 16: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(45), RgnTis-Regen+(45)
Level 18: Invincibility -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(19), HO:Cyto(19), LkGmblr-Rchg+(45)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21), P'Shift-End%(48)
Level 22: Thunder Strike -- Erad-Dmg/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Erad-%Dam(25), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(34), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(42)
Level 24: Resist Physical Damage -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(37), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37), RctvArm-ResDam(40)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- DefBuff-I(A), LkGmblr-Def(27), LkGmblr-Rchg+(27)
Level 28: Chain Induction -- S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg(A), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx(29), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/Rchg(29), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(34), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 30: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 32: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(33), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33), RctvArm-ResDam(33)
Level 35: Weave -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx(A), GftotA-Def/Rchg(36), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), GftotA-Def(36)
Level 38: Lightning Rod -- Erad-Dmg/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Erad-%Dam(39), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(40), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Build Up -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(42)
Level 44: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Adrenalin Boost -- P'Shift-End%(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(48)
Level 49: Resist Energies -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(50), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50), RctvArm-ResDam(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
I'm confused. I followed your guide to just about the tee and I seem to be slightly lacking on my defenses. Now, I opted to go with Super Speed for my travel power so I could save a power slot (since I was taking Hasten anyway) and get Physical Perfection without having to drop something I wanted like Build Up, so I am missing 2.5% defense from CJ, but there's another 2-3% defense I'm missing and can't figure out where.
It's probably not a big deal though. I mean, Invincibility scales based on how many mobs are around you and I mostly play on large teams so when I need my defenses capped they should be capped. I guess I could see it being more important when facing like, a single AV though...
I don't know, it just seems the more I "work" my build the lower my defense get >_<
Edit: Hmmm, it seems mid's was not adding the Steadfast unique's +3% defense...
Edit2: It also seems mid's gets confused when opening the data link and swaps PP with Adrenaline Boost :S -
Quote:Yeah I forgot to finish that sentence. I meant to say that recharge would be more important because for Elec Lightning Rod is a long recharge attack and I'd want it up as often as possible.Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
One reason for the extra Reactive Armor sets is due to the very high cost and limited availability of Kinetic Combat... slotting Smashing Haymaker will be MUCH cheaper and easier but you'll need to find some more bonuses. Therefore two more sets of Reactive.
That's a valid choice; if recharge is more valuable to you then by all means go for it... you're the one playing the tank so by all means set it up the way you like. My focus and playstyle work very well for me, but you're not me so you should build to suit your own style.
My brother told me yesterday he looked up Kinetic Combat and said most of the recipes were going for like 40 mil, so yeah I might make an "abridged" build that uses Smashing Haymakers instead and 4 slot my autos, but have the final goal of getting Kinetic Crash.
Sheesh though. Finding the slots to 4 slot my autos just feels like strangling my build... -
Quote:Well considering he said he mostly plays scrappers I'd say the idea of a "skranker" might be exactly what he's looking forOriginally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Others have suggested WP, and while it can be very durable it's very much a skranker set... survivable but with very poor aggro management ability due to an extremely weak taunt aura. If you want to hold aggro and actually tank then WP isn't a good set for the purpose.
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Quote:Already thought about dropping a slot off Stamina. That 2.5% damage buff isn't doing much all on it's own. Slotting the Steadfast unique earlier I can understand but 4 slotting more Reactive Armor into RPD and REN doesn't make much sense since I'm already at the cap for S/L, 3 slotting for more Energy/Negative defense I suppose, but then I still have to find an extra 4 slots somewhere.Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Looking over your build there's a few things I'd change... I'd add a 5th slot in TI for the Steadfast unique so it'll be there if you exemplar below 32. I'd probably toss another set of Reactive Armor into RPD and Res Energies. Stamina I'd stop at 4 slots, the fifth Perf. Shifter probably isn't as useful as that slot would be elsewhere.
Despite being more focused on durability I do like putting out the biggest numbers I can, so I don't like the sound of dumping Build Up, and according to my brother who has a lvl 50 Inv tanker and a few other people all of the autos are worthwhile to take now.Quote:I'd be tempted to rearrange the power selection and dump Build Up, grab Boxing in it's place and put Tough/Weave in at 30 & 32. Resist Energies I'd move out into the late 40's and personally I'd skip Resist Elements.
I've played a Elec/Elec Brute a bit and played around with Jacobs Ladder and I personally find it more annoying than anything. It's cool when you manage to hit several enemies with it, and it's not rocket science to line up or anything, but in the instances where I "miss" and only hit one target or have to use it as a single target attack it just really bugs me.Quote:I'm not completely familiar with Electric Melee, I've only played it on a level bumped Shield/Elec tank on test. With that said I'd be tempted to find a way to snag Jacob's Ladder, it's a pretty nice cone attack and Electric's strong point is AOE.
Plus Jacobs Ladder takes AoE sets, not melee sets so I'm afraid that might lower my S/L defense too much.
Yeah I pretty much meet all that criteria with my build. I've got over 3/s recovery and chance for +end with 0.97/s drain so I'd like to think I'm fine on that as well. Also, I think recharge might have more importanceQuote:Getting back to your original question of priorities, I'd tend to list my power/IO bonuses in this order:
- Soft cap S/L defense and as much E/N defense as is practical, ideally above 40%
- 90% S/L resistance and maximum E/N resistance.
- Dull Pain above 90% recharge/heal
- Enough endurance recovery to support the demands of the toggles and attacks. How much is that? It all depends on the rest of your build and only actually playing it will tell you.
- F/C defense above 30% (likely automatic with Weave and the Steadfast unique)
- Regeneration above 200%
- Recharge bonuses aren't a big priority for me on an Invuln; I don't need Dull Pain to be constantly available thanks to the other defenses and I have a full chain. If they're there on sets I want for other purposes great but I don't really go looking for them.
Yeah I'm aware of that considering I said pretty much the same thing in another threadQuote:Oh, just so you're aware the Kinetic Combat set is once again very expensive and hard to come by. You can accomplish the same thing with the Smashing Haymaker set, you'll just need to slot a couple more attacks with it. Most likely I'll slot Smashing Haymakers until I can afford the Kinetic sets.
Edit - Here's the data chunk of my "updated" build with some of Call Me Awesome's suggestions
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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Well according to mid's DP lasts 120 seconds and with Hasten it will recharge in 120.3, of course I'm not sure if that counts as "perma" since Hasten won't be up all the time but it seems close enough to at least call it semi-perma. I really don't see how to truly make it perma unless I had a recharge bonus in like every single power.
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Yeah, I forgot about that. I guess I'm just addicted to set bonuses
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Quote:Not a bad idea, and I can put the other slot into heal with a Numina's heal IO there as well and snag another 12% regen plus the regen bonus of the heal IO in health puts my total regen over 300%.Originally Posted by Laevateinn
IMO, a good alternative slotting for Dull Pain is:
Numina's Heal
Numina's Heal/Rech
Doctored Wounds Heal/Rech
Lv50 Recharge common IO
This gives you the 12% regen bonus from Numina's as well as 91.7% healing and recharge enhancement for only 4 slots.
I don't think 6-slotted Doctored Wounds is worth it at all. The 6th slot bonus is useless, and if you are missing the 5% recharge bonus, you can put an LotG 7.5 in Invincibility with one of the two slots you saved.
I can't comment on your build goals at large but if you want regen, you ought to heavily slot Health because the regen uniques are boosted by the enhancement % in the power itself.
Hmmm, or I could replace the Doctored Wounds Heal/Recharge with the Numina's Heal/End/Recharge (which only reduces the heal/recharge by ~3% which probably isn't even noticeable) and snag the +35 HP bonus as well!
Regen isn't a main goal of my build per se, I'd be much more successful with WP I think if it were, but I figure it couldn't hurt to boost it as much as possible and I'm not really sacrificing anything crucial to increase it