JupiterMoon

a willpower tanker will lose aggro on anything that hasnt been hit with gauntlet or the taunt power unless rttc has two taunt io's in it.

the cages are a much smaller radius as well

i havent used air superiority in years. i like this concept. i want a supergirl clone. she's a hotty, but i know that footstomp wont fire when hovering.

air sup over haymaker makes for a fantastic attack chain at low levels too - and it's pretty easy on the endurance.

the only real burden on melee is when y ou're playing a tanker or tanky brute and someone in your group constinues to spread the spawns way the hell out with knockbacks.

it's annoying, and i usually ask them to stop. if they dont stop, i dont taunt things knocked away. usually after they've died a few times they quit - or i replace them.

of course having a high amount of dmg on said knockbacks makes it hard for them to not use said powers. just use yer brains - pop said powers if you have a controller/dom/some other -kb immob on the mobs, not before.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about the on going debate you speak of, but my personal experience is that Scrappers don't do enough damage to make up for the lack of survivability compared to Brutes. A well built Brute can charge into any situation without concern, and if worst comes to worst, pop your tier nine. Scrappers our definetly tough, but in no way compare to a Brute. Meanwhile, I don't really feel like I kill things any faster with a scrapper than a brute....so whats the point? I think Scrappers should get an occasional 3x damage SUPER critical hit or something.

I hope Going Rogue isn't the end of proliferation cause I'm not happy with an "evil" claws scrapper. I want a claws brute....and a Katan Brute....and a Broadsword brute.....and....

[/ QUOTE ]

they are about equal. scrappers dont need to fuel fury - the base dmg on their attacks is all higher than a brute and they can crit. critting a fully saturated midnight grasp with a fully saturated aao (scrappers get a higher +dam buff from both over brutes) is an easy 1400 negative dmg - and scrappers crit quite often on bosses, eb's and av's.

both at's have the exact. same. values. on their defensive sets outside of the dmg buff on AAO. brutes can not hit 90% smashing/lethal without granite, tough and rock armor. also not all of the brute primaries lends themselves well to building fury fast on one or two targets - anything longer than 2 seconds animation and you could potentially be losing fury while it's firing.

i see far more forum posts about scrappers soloing touch av's than brutes. of course the av's you fight redside are substantially tougher, and longbow can shut down most of any brutes defenses - something heroes only have to deal with in ONE arc in the RWZ. add into it the mentality of the OP "i'm a stalker without hide lulz" and most brutes dont build for enough survivability in the first place.

go traps.

mercs need an overhaul. at least traps will let you do more dmg and give you more control. achille's heel proc in acid mortar plus a few in your pets is a rather powerful amount of resist debuffing.

if you take and use the leadership toggles, the pets benefit. as does anyone in range of you in your team.

however i'm of a mind that not many secondaries have room for those toggles. taking those toggles with an active secondary means you will need stamina. the less active secondaries usually slot out for global recharge come 50 and end up needing stamina.

personally i think only forcefield has room for leadership toggles beyond just manuevers for added defense. there are a lot of skippable powers in that set. most of our secondaries have one or maybe 2 truely skippable powers. i never consider someone's 'concept' a valid reason for skipping a primary or secondary power though so your mileage may vary.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gauntlet and PunchVoke are often called the same thing, especially on the Tanker forum. Also, I never said you were wrong on the matter. I asked where you were getting it from because there's no in-game listing to suggest a difference and I've found the Brute version more effective. My group had a mob aggroed and one guy broke off. I chased him down and starting beating on him with only ST attacks then they all swarmed on me. Didn't even have my aura on.


[/ QUOTE ]

all brute attacks have +13.5s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only, which is why you can slot taunt IOs into every attack, tanks are the same but "gauntlet" applys an aoe effect "Each time a Tanker attacks, he enrages the target, and those around him, enticing them to attack the Tanker"

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Gauntlet

All ATs also come with a "threat level" red sides brutes are the highest so mobs are more inclined to attack them. Brutes are threat level 4, same as tanks. Masterminds are threat level 2.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Threat

[/ QUOTE ]

you know the OP will never actually get it. he's the kind that rolls a tanker to deal damage.

[ QUOTE ]
wait I'm confused, isn't there a thread over on the scrapper forums with people justifying the potential for brutes to do more damage than scrappers using the arguement that brutes aren't meant to tank?

edit: If surviving the alpha makes you a tank then any well played scrapper is a tank as well and we get fewer tools than brutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's just fallacy. the only real complaint they have that's somewhat justified is the higher hp on brutes and the tanker hp cap

having tanker resist caps means jack, because if you are on a team with no sonic and no thermal and you arent in granite WITH TOUGH, you arent at 90% to anything. not even brute invuln can cap smash and lethal WITH tough. and because we have "400% taunt on target" in every single attack including the aoes - something scrappers dont have - the extra hp are warranted. the whining about brute resist caps is not.

stone melee is also rough on the endurance, but easy on the fury generation due to pretty much all of the attacks being fast animating (i think you actually LOSE fury if you pop tremor)

or if you're a villain, just make sure to log out in grandville

never...EVER...skip fault in stone melee. tremor is skippable

as dm/shield it should be ok. powerforge flies and he solo'd lord recluse redside as a dm/shield scrapper with flight - he was hovering for the duration.

i dont think footstomp works while hovering. my sm/wp used to be a teleporter because i prefer teleport as a movement power but fault and tremor wont fire for the few seconds she's in the air

actually soloing an av as a +2 av will depend on your primary and secondary combination.

a lot of poisons debuffs are hurt due to av resistances. tohit debuffs are likewise hurt. if you are poison or dark i recommend dropping the av down to EB status until you can io out.

thugs/traps and bots/traps has the easiest time with av's due to the tools available. with bots you are likely to have to replace the probots regularly. with thugs you will prob have to replace the tier 1 pets regularly. you can softcap your thugs at 40 by getting and 4 slotting gang war and putting in all 4 pet uniques for defense and resistance. bots will never softcap the probots as thugs/traps.

positioning is key and is why i have team teleport. your pets MUST all be under the ffg.

of course other primary/secondary combos can solo some av's, but if you want to solo every av redside - and our av's are substantially harder than anything blueside deals with - thugs/traps or bots/traps cant be beat atm.

[ QUOTE ]
Dunno, on my Thug/Poison MM I often out "tank" brutes. I can even outlast them. In fact I think my MM can outsurvive stuff my soft cap brute or willpower brute can't (don't like stone so I dunno on that) Does that mean I can keep aggro on the LRSF or AVs? No, I see brutes more of surviving long battles and MMs more of alpha takers.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's more to tanking than just surviving. you arent going to be able to hold the attention of an 8 man spawn from the other 7 members doing dmg with just one aoe from one of your pets.

one aoe from a brute hits every mobs in range with a "400% taunt on target" for 13 seconds.

you can build a squishy brute if you wish, just hope there is another tougher brute on any team you join to eat the alphas and effectively tank.

my thugs/traps is the most powerful character i've ever seen in this game in terms of survivability and dmg output. but it cant hold an 8 man spawns attention when there are corruptors also aoe'ng.

about the only time a pet can effectively peel a mob off a brute is if the brute is willpower and using no aoe's or hitting said mob, because willpower has a weak taunt with a short duration. otherwise damage alone wont pull a mob off a brute if it's in range of said brutes taunt aura unless it was just knocked out of range between aura pulses.

welp i've totally switched gears for an invuln/ss

if i run into endo problems early on, i'll two box my kin. i'm feeling uninspired lately so a supergirl clone sounds good.

[ QUOTE ]
Take your own advice.

[ QUOTE ]
unless the mastermind takes provoke, they wont hold aggro on anything.

[/ QUOTE ]My comment was a reference to this statement, not a direct quote.

I know the name of the Tanker inherent. I have one. It's in my signature. Can you not read it? We all know Brute attacks Taunt. I state this in the OP, you imbecile. Pretending I arguing that is just moronic. I was responding to the Brute version being ST as opposed to AoE.

[/ QUOTE ]

and where in what you quoted me did i say the following:

[ QUOTE ]
You stated MMs needing a single power from a Power Pool to Tank efficiently

[/ QUOTE ]

i said nothing of efficiency. if you REALLY want to know about mm tanks, go read up on tankerbots guides. otherwise put a sock in it, this meme post is already old.

[ QUOTE ]
Take your own advice.

[ QUOTE ]
unless the mastermind takes provoke, they wont hold aggro on anything.

[/ QUOTE ]My comment was a reference to this statement, not a direct quote.

I know the name of the Tanker inherent. I have one. It's in my signature. Can you not read it? We all know Brute attacks Taunt. I state this in the OP, you imbecile. Pretending I arguing that is just moronic. I was responding to the Brute version being ST as opposed to AoE.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're still a fool

oh btw, check out the in game info for any of your brute's attacks.

note the following line:

+400% taunt on target.

are you sharing your account with someone?

you said

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Brute "gauntlet" is single target only and taunts the mob you happen to be punching at the time, Tank gauntlet is AOE so its like confront Vs taunt

[/ QUOTE ]Where are you getting this from? Neither CoD or Mids show any differentg between the two nor does it make sense. A single target taunt is basically just a ranged attack.



[/ QUOTE ]

which clearly shows you dont know the difference between the functionality of punchvoke on a brute and gauntlet on a tranker. brutes dont have gauntlet. they have punchvoke - something tankers had before gauntlet.

[ QUOTE ]
Err... Scrappers do get Taunt Auras. Against All Odds, Rise to the Challenge, and Invincibility are all Taunt Auras.

[ QUOTE ]
Brute "gauntlet" is single target only and taunts the mob you happen to be punching at the time, Tank gauntlet is AOE so its like confront Vs taunt

[/ QUOTE ]Where are you getting this from? Neither CoD or Mids show any differentg between the two nor does it make sense. A single target taunt is basically just a ranged attack.

[ QUOTE ]
well if you're going to hold your breath until you get your way, why not make the mm petless?

[/ QUOTE ]No, you just said something ridiculous is all and realized it had no merit. You stated MMs needing a single power from a Power Pool to Tank efficiently made the idea of them Tanking in comparison to Brutes because Brutes can do it with LITTLE effort. If it takes LITTLE effort, people wouldn't need Tough/Weave, Aid Self, and spending a few hundred million inf on IO sets. That means you're wrong.

The 5 plus target deal is irrelevant as I've seen pets strip aggro from Tankers. 400% Taunt in their attacks? LOL. There's no such thing in the game. Please, don't argue mechanics when you don't know them. It's Magnitude of 4 with a duration. There is no such thing as 300% or 400% Taunt, Hold, or anything else like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're a fool.

gauntlet is the name of the tanker inherent. it makes ALL DMG they do place an aoe taunt on the target

brutes have punchvoke - every attack they get has a taunt to it. since you had the presence of mind to at least open mid's, have you ever wondered why an attack like Jab has a duration? that's the taunt - fool.

and i never used the word 'efficiently' when describing mm's needing to get provoke from the presence pool. christ man at least learn to read.

if you honestly think an MM can tank for a 8 man villain team as well as a brute - prove it. otherwise this is just another internet meme thread

you made a piss-poor internet meme post cutting and pasting a post you made in another similiar thread. total waste of time and effort. when villains were learning the lrsf, they sure as hell werent using MM tanks.

brutes ARE the villainside tanks. i'm sorry y ou made a weaksauce /elec brute that cant stand up to a wet fart. my sm/wp tanks 8 man's constantly and tanks av's for teams constantly. NOBODY can pull threat from her. not mm's, not fulcrum shifted corruptors, not even other brutes unless they actually use the power Taunt.

there is no consensus that masterminds are the villain tanks.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've seen videos of petless MM's soloing AV's, so it is possible

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I saw one solo Statesman in RV without pets even in the build

[/ QUOTE ]

Were they /Traps using the pre-nerf PGT behavior? If not, I'm really curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes it was

the fact that anyone would still consider what a petless mm could do before that nerf as applicable to this discussion today is just proof positive of how absurd the entire thing is, and some people are.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd really love to see this little effort build of yours. Since you bring up Masterminds needing 1 power from a Power Pool, this little effort build of yours better not include Tough, Weave, Aid Self, or IO sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

well if you're going to hold your breath until you get your way, why not make the mm petless?

that's how absurd your argument is. brutes tank because they have the taunts. when i play my brutes i always tank on them. it just works out that way - and it's good for fury generation if i've got everything mad at me and in melee range

most brutes take tough and weave. most scrappers also take tough and weave. grow up


the mastermind takes provoke. great. they can taunt 5 targets. so what do you do when the spawn is larget than 5?

lock 'em down with a dom? that hurts fury

i'm sorry you're so butt hurt over something so simple. please note i never said a brutes role is to tank. i've have only said that they do tank. why? because they have 400% taunt on all their attacks including the non-damage attacks like fault and taunt auras. a brute doesnt need to actually take taunt to generate and maintain threat.

if you make a squishy build without tough and weave that's not our fault, now is it


and exactly how well do you think the squishier mm secondaries like poison would tank an 8 man spawn, or even come close to just about any brutes utility in said situation.

brutes tank by default, because it is in the nature of the class to rush in first and build fury fast while beating the snot out of things. if you hit an aoe like foostomp or fsc or even a no-dmg aoe like fault - you just taunted everything in range with a mag 4 taunt.

unless the mastermind takes provoke, they wont hold aggro on anything.

so no, they arent the tanks. tanks must do all of the following:

grab and hold a mobs attention
survive the incoming dmg

masterminds can only do one. brutes do both with little effort.

i never plan to exemplar

the slotting in gfs was a..typo? clickied wrong thing. should be same as incinerate

this is what i'm tentatively going with. it's both a levelling and final respec build. (i dont t hink heroes get a free respec at 41 like villains right?) i say tentative because if i find the 5s recharge on incinerate to be enough i will prob drop gfs for breath of fire or build up. the kinetic combats are long term, smashing haymakers will be there for the short term.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

waffelstomp: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Mind Over Body -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(19), RctvArm-ResDam(46), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(46), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(42), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(43), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 2: Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(42), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Mrcl-Heal(A), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(5), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(5)
Level 6: Combustion -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(7), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(7), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Oblit-%Dam(37)
Level 8: Rise to the Challenge -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(9), Heal-I(9)
Level 10: Taunt -- Zinger-Taunt(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(11), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(11), Zinger-Acc/Rchg(15), Zinger-Taunt/Rng(17), Zinger-Dam%(19)
Level 12: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(13), P'Shift-EndMod(13)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(15), LkGmblr-Rchg+(25), Winter-ResSlow(50)
Level 16: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(17)
Level 18: Indomitable Will -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Heightened Senses -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(21), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(21)
Level 22: High Pain Tolerance -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam(23), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(23), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Heal-I(48), Heal-I(50)
Level 24: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(27), RgnTis-Regen+(27)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(29), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Oblit-%Dam(34)
Level 30: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(31), P'Shift-EndMod(31)
Level 32: Strength of Will -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam(33), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(33), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 35: Incinerate -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Tough -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(45), ResDam-I(45)
Level 47: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(48), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet



<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>| Copy &amp; Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1394;690;1380;HEX;|
|78DAA553DB4E1351143DD30BA537DA5268CBAD4029940A0CF 4CD4BA231020642930|
|A045F5452CB0126D669ED3441DFFC009F7CD0273FC4F827FA EA3DFE8197BAF75E87|
|26C44727ED5A3367F65A7BCFD9FB549FAEC7947A7E4359B15 BCDBAE71DEED7DD47B|
|A13ACD64F9C46F4AC7E7CAC9B5EB7F5B81D524AE5F0F2705D 1F6BD7D3F65DA7D96C|
|B7CE74E7FC455537B5B6371DDD7986FBD4967BAA3BDAEDDAE 737B15AABD5B47774B|
|DEDB82778D874BAAEF6BCB8793839EDD2AB883CEDB5B53E4A 6FB49D867DB3D3E83A|
|8DC36ADDEB927D8ECA29D3FF5398C0A2BFEA05549E6E4A6A3 84B34A5560AF2B4320|
|D9A154A4594B97A4155232AA8F21DA14BBBA03D90435451CB 474A1C232607A92CA8|
|7C50F9A02A415586AADC10FA4CA5F9519ACFBF25E9031BA0D B4269B20D1ADBE04F1|
|F6B067E817E0BCDFE01F5848ACACFF4956C439625B6A1A264 1ABC4023641B36B661|
|57A49116A82D34F44428D9111AF684BE91246AAA8DBE96A5D 82BD04BA10C4D401C0|
|1FEF87B187D10CA8D5A4C9509A92F4B7109A4B712884B22EE 0BA548C141A57A74A9|
|EFB4923649D37019190125853E52C0280282A3686F067DCDA 0AF39F475159F5E010|
|D50095993282B8942B43266128D1D88F5F8B628C7AFCBB464 69D326CCA64DA01793|
|E8C5247A91472F66D08B59F462906CA78CED14362D8F4DCB6 3D37E50FDD3B0F54FA|
|3FE19D43F83FA2BA83F17E1F941FA02266C0E133687099BC3 84158FE4038B18B431|
|52CD1BD53C540B502D40B5005509AA12E6D2A2A217A1528BB 23B7E5A59329FB1B48|
|CC9BF40010AB04D808D3EADA24FABE8538102D68CE7DA9268 2603FDA3463F4EB3F3|
|CF4A2DD03F58CA929572A07F9EFFEB7A1B3BCF15DEE533BFC F50633860B8C7709FE|
|101439DE1214383A1F7AEAF4E5CE682AE305C65B8C6F08283 42518228438C21CE30|
|C490604832A419320CE30C6F187A7F014FBB0215|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|</pre><hr />

they gave their opinions based on what they have used themselves.