Iodine

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If I might play devil's advocate for a second, in the presence of EQ 2, how well is EQ doing?

And yes, that's a rhetorical question.

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Apple, meet orange.

First of all, Fantasy genre > Superhero genre. So the rhetoric is slightly out of phase. Next, both EQ and EQ2 are PC platforms. MUO and DCO will be both PC and Console. Finally, whatever you think of Verant, SOE, or EQ itself, I think EQ was THE foundation upon which every subsequent MMO built to launch its game. It doesn't surprise at all that they are still around. Cryptic cannot claim this will be the case for CoX - yet.

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Hey Iodine, while your points are valid, I would like to point out that it only takes one success to become a HUGE success. It's worth the effort to make console MMOs because if they get it right then just about every console in the country will play it. ( Of course I'm exadurating but you get the point )

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Point taken. I hope you're correct. I want very much for the DCO project to be successful, personally - as I grew up preferring that comic universe over Marvel. However, I more or less share ShinobuMaehara's opinion about console gamers in general.

My gaming experience suggests MMOs require more attention to detail, depth, and maturity to play than the average console player possesses. This plus the inherent lack of keyboard communication arguably places console gamers at a clear tactical & social disadvantage (at least until voice communication becomes more mainstream than it is at the present).

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FFXI has done very well, for a pre-WoW MMO, as far as I know (had around.. 300k in its heyday, is dangling in the 150-250k range now, if the stats rattling around in my brain are correct - I'm about to go to sleep, and so, will not go to more effort), and it was developed first and foremost as a console game.

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Fantasy genre > Superhero genre - whether Console or PC platform ready. So I'm not terribly inclined to disagree with you. I was careful to point out that there were not A LOT of console/PC hybrid MMOs on the market. What if I had said, there were not a lot of superhero genre console/PC hybrids on the market? Plus, I wonder how well FFXI did in the US? Or better yet, how well is CityofHero(tm) doing in Korea?

/sleep on it.

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Ironically, this only goes to further support the idea that full-featured MMOGs CAN be successfully adapted to console systems and controllers.

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Your sense of irony is as interesting as your choice of the word "successfully".

Canned phrases and emotes will not grow an online community in an MMO. However, incorporating voice chat might - if the demand for the product fares somewhat better than DDO's effort. Suffice to say, I am skeptical.

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I mean really... I see alot of people griping that "MUO will have the stuff we can't have in CoH" - it'll be a far newer game... of /course/ it will have stuff we can't have here >.> the devs have learned alot from COH - including what players want.

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The devs may need to remember more than just what players want. They'll need to know what the players NEED as well.

When I heard the MUO and DCO projects were going to be coded for console platforms, I knew immediately these were going to be pork projects.

Tell me, how many console gamers use keyboards to chat with their PC counterparts in an MMO? Whoops ... not many, huh? Nothing like trying to grow a community of superhero mutes. This is only ONE challenge in many to come because some propeller-head, bean counter decided to merge console gamers with PC gamers in an MMO.

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...except for the fact that, last I checked, EQOA was never released for PC.

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But MUO will be. I am saying there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth - because of the console platform focus.

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There was a PK on Lake Superior named Ultimus than I ganked a few times. I think I even broke into his castle and looted it at one point...That was during the days when Cookie Monster was the top of the Bounty list, before he let one of his friends kill him ,turn in his head for a couple hundred grand and then split the bounty with him. Man, that made me mad!

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You can't begin to know what this flashback has done to my blood pressure, Castle.

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Can people ( in general, not you ) please get over the ED thing? It's been over a year already. Sheesh.

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No.

MUO will probably fail just about as miserably as Everquest Online Adventures because it's going to be primarily coded a console game and the PC version will be an afterthought - completed right before some deadline. Reminds me very much about ED and it's integration into CoH.

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So, this is why my Stalker gets attacked on teams, even when she is hidden and hasn't attacked.

working as intended.

lame.

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Agreed. The AI aggro distribution on teams is just a tiny step above the MOST assinine feature implemented in the game - travel power suppression. But that's another thread.

They can distribute the aggro however they want once I attack - but until then - I should be ignored - teamed or not.

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(A bit off topic) They do that with global warming too. I think we'll realize that the water level is rising before it's too late... We're not just gonna all drawn one day out of the blue...

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It was very off topic. Certainly, I am not the ONLY one who prefers we focus on one piece of propaganda at a time (video game "violence"). I saw your point, but I wish folks like you would go start their OWN threads or blogs about Global Warming or the Iraq conflict somewhere ELSE.

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How about instead, we ask "Why are parents letting a nine year old play a game he isn't old enough to play?"

First it was jazz, then it was movies, then heavy metal, then rap, now it's video games that is ruining our children. I think it is parents that are ruining our children. It's harder to adopt a pet from a shelter than it is to become a parent. That alone should point out the core issues.

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Exactly. Well said. This is one issue where I fully share in Mr. Emmert's shock & disappointment at this "clip". I hope there is something legal (copyright-related, maybe?) that can be done to remove the image of Statesman from this propaganda.

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... At some point it stops becoming a community environment and starts becoming a solo game.

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It already is ... and always has been for many people. The allure of this game over others is the ability to solo or duo quite effectively while having fun at the same time. Teaming is fine ... and fun also, but CoX used to be CASUAL friendly until they pretended there was an economy in this game with the Base and Prestige tax system.

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To reserve a personal room inside the base is still very much asking for a "player's apartment."

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Yes, it is. There should be a portion of that make-believe instance under the base-entry-swirls where you can display your souvenirs and spend a little influence on non-game-breaking fluff.

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...At the end of the day, why would the Devs want players to spend all their time in their personal apartments when they should be motivated to head outside and explore the zones?

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Not all their time ... but there comes a point in time in an MMO where enough of the playerbase is tired of re-rolling alts and experiencing the same content over and over and over again. Kudos for you if you aren't among this portion of the community, but it exists and is quite large ... for now. In my view, there is insufficient incentive to keep these folks from jumping ship to other games where fluff like personal housing can be fun and a diversion to the same ole same ole.

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...If a request for player apartments outweighs the priority of new zone material, then there's a problem with players feeling *motivated* to go explore the outside world.

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The absence of any "new zone material" and a flashback system in this game demonstrates the fallacy in your argument.

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Again, just my two cents, and I'm sure I'm totally wrong.

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No ... you've just got an opinion with which I happen to disagree.

Yeah, crazy, isn't it? The truth hurts about as much as the HO and Burn nerf did.

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...I remember the recent Boomtown interview with Positron, and reading his comments on player apartments. Him saying that player apartments offered no real gameplay opportunities, and therefore weren't of real importance.

I was so disappointed reading that, being that for one I would love to have a personal base, and two because personal bases are only as important as the game designers decide to make them...

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This is only one example of what many feel is a disconnect between developer and player in this game. There ARE many others ... but this philosophy regarding Bases and player lairs was very disappointing and reveals a lot about their commitment to us in an otherwise amazing game.


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...Of course, people would argue that giving personal bases that much functionality would marginalize supergroup bases, but I say that such an outcome would only be good for the game...

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As do I. SG bases are already "marginalized". A: This feature was restricted to CoV patrons right out of the box and B: Only the larger, jaded SGs can realistically participate in content Statesman ironically is concerned that we not inadvertently bypass.

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...SG Bases have only made the Supergroup experience more of a hassle. They've only fostered Supergroups held together by tape and paste forcing members into SG mode, just so they can make a better base. Supergroups that people only stay in to have access to bases. Supergroups should be about teaming with people you like, not just a base.

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Exactly. Bases should be the frosting ... not the cake.

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Giving the player what they want is EXACTLY why Ultima Online tanked.

I'd be a little careful about that.

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So would I ... considering what you've stated was an ignorant exaggeration. Ultima Online still exists ... and apparently you don't play it anymore. Whatever your opinion is of it today, this game set the standard at the time upon which everyone else built and improved upon their product. Ultima Online was unprecedented, fresh, magical and wonderous when it released ... just as all the others were that succeeded it when they released. It had & has it's share of some problems, but so do all the other MMOs. It has evolved significantly since it's release ... just like CoX and every other game has.

As for giving players what they want ... no one says these devs should give us everything we want, but if things are badly in need of corrective change, they should give me what I want by fixing whatever is broken, unbalanced, or unfair. If the game starts to become stale, I expect they'll give us what we want (content, cool things to do, costumes, and other non-game breaking features) to keep us interested in paying them monthly.

Frankly, the bigger concern in my view is the lack of attention to the player base by an MMO compared to the opposite extreme. I rate CoX 2 out of 5 stars for playerbase interaction and appeasement.

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Add me to the list of players who do not wish to see loot in this game.

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Hate to burst your bubble ... but it's already here and more is coming.

On second thought ... I didn't hate it.

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I think we were all expecting the batcave, danger room and hall of justice. What we got was mortgage on a personal tram station.

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Pretty much ... at least a personal tram would allow for whisking away to more than two locations. Teleporters do not. Ok, I'll concede that there are a few things to like about the base system ... if you're a large, prestige-farming SG. However, there's more to dislike about it though.

I just love how the problem with the bases is because not enough people are participating / missing out on the awesome wonder of the base creation tools. It can't possibly have anything to do with an unfair prestige tax, unrealistic lot and functional item pricing, and a lack of a COP/IOP trial after 10 months, now could it?

The big question is - will Posi's changes be enough to encourage the masses to return to their make-believe base instances - or will it be as anti-climatic as the changes to Swift, Fly, and Hover?

Well ... it could have been worse. You could have been reassigned to Auto-Assault.

Good luck over at TR, CJ.

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Learn to like whats left over people, you cant spec out of it...

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... yet.

The crazy thing about blinders is that you don't always have to wear them.

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So wait ... at least for a while, we can run (and finish) the CoP trial and enjoy an IoP without the hassle of defending against raids? Talk about a pleasant surprise.

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Nice carrot for the salad.

Funny thing about lettuce after it sits for a while though...

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You can drop Soul Storm in a respec as well.

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You know what he meant. The ability to respec out of that epic pool and into another should be allowed.

I see nothing wrong with allowing someone to potentially go through all 4 patron story arcs to unlock their power sets. As long as a respec is available to the player, and you finished the arc ... you should have access to that pool.

There is neither balance nor fun in being heavy handed with the PPP choices. The two arcs I've gone through so far share similar betrayal themes. It's not like your allegiance to the patron was MEANT to be permanent in the first place ... hence the choice of powers should be just as ambiguous.

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Programer A: Hey hit me with that Ghost Widow hold...
Programer B: Ok... (acitvates power)
Programer A: Wait...the breakfree isn't working.
Programer B: Oh yea? I coded the animation as a constant knockback. Sweet isn't it?
Programer A: That's gonna piss somebody off for sure. Hey wanna get lunch?
Programer B: Sure. I'd like some Subway right about now.

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LOL

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... Considering that it will probably have taken over a year, when all is said and done, to even start seeing the item of power PvP system in live usage, I hardly think one can argue that they're spending all their development time on PvP...

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RV was a groundbreaking 4th PvP zone. That's significant development time. The COP trial was on test how for how long since CoV release? Add that development time. How much development time has been spent on power adjustment because of PvP since CoV was released? Count that time as well. No, development time may not have been saturated on PvP since CoV's release, but it has been a tad more significant a chunk of time than you paint it to be.

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...As long as they don't break what limited PvE functionality bases have, I could care less about wether some SG, somewhere, can work their butt off to gain a benefit smaller than what you'd get from ++ing your SOs.

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QFT.

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Keep in mind. Some of us wish we could have Items of Power *without* opening up our base to raids, much the same way we collect Accolaid powers even though a +5% Endurance boost really doesn't help much.

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Neither will the IOP bonuses (unless they've changed from original bonus design).

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Sigh. I'll re-quote Posi's earlier statement:

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New Design: 7 day window to get your Item(s) of Power. You then hold it for 21 days, reaping the (now larger) bonus. Then it disappears and you need to re-do the CoP trial to get it.


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(Again, emphasis mine) The bonus apparently HAS changed from the original design. By how much, we don't know yet, but it might not be trivial any more. We'll just have to wait and see.

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Thanks for the refresher ... I stand informed. A change from 1% to 2% is still an improvement. Place your bets?

edit: to be succinct, my opinion on the opportunity cost of obtaining, and defending a future IOP hasn't changed.

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Keep in mind. Some of us wish we could have Items of Power *without* opening up our base to raids, much the same way we collect Accolaid powers even though a +5% Endurance boost really doesn't help much.

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Neither will the IOP bonuses (unless they've changed from original bonus design).

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...Losing your IoP's in PvP combat is an integral part of the design and of bases (otherwise, what good are secure plots and defense items)

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Glad you asked. Secure plots and defense items are base features I think most of the player base could care less about obtaining ... mainly due them being too expensive. Why even strive to obtain these items in defense of a pittance bonus when the cost & design of the base system precludes most from ever obtaining one?