Hai Jinx

That is an interesting point:

Why is it a max survial buffed Brute gets ~99% of the suriviability of the Tank?
And a max buffed Scrapper gets ~85% the surviability of the Tank?

And yet the Tank max damage buffed does a whole lot less Damage than either?

Shouldnt that Tank get something else in return. Bigger Aggro Cap? Better Taunting? Something?


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Although to be fair - it takes a whole lot less buffing to get that Tank to Max Survivability.

Although I agree with the gist of what you are saying I do not think the slotting during examplar works like that.

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Exempl...n_Enhancements

Instead it degrades all the enhancements by an amount based on the level shift. So for the Aura, if 6 slotted would still be 6 slotted but all the values would be reduced.

The end result is still likely how you mentioned though - the accuracy is probably poor.

Also the brute fury affects the aura I believe making the brute Fire taunt aura more damaging most of the time.

On the easy mode that most of the game is set up as .. I agree. The Tank will just pick up for the brute that dies. Or the support will be more than sufficient and no one will notice. At the steam roll level not even the blasters wait for aggro to get established.

But In a harder encounter losing aggro could be a problem.

Speculative Example: The Brute is a ways ahead of the Tank, taunting away. Two blasters are following his lead and blasting what the Brute is smashing, brute dies, blasters die. Tank moves to intercept .. What the tank was already taunting peels off and kills the support, etc.

That kind of thing does happen. I am sure everyone has been in team wipes before.


Sure.. Again up thread I mentioned that scrappers were not squishies either.

However all things being equal the Tanker is a lot sturdier than the brute. On SOs especially. You dont even need to spend more than 20 minutes on Mids to see how much higher you can get things like Defense, Resistance, and Hit Points.

Really the root of the disparity is pretty straightforward. The game started with no inherents. They were added later. They never designed the game for the blue and red side ATs to work and play well with each other.

So Blue side you had a Aggro generating inherent for the Tank, Three DPS inherents for scrappers, blasters, and controllers, and an inherent to make the defenders supporting role easier. These followed the already established roles. No conflicts.

Red side you had, A dps inherent related to aggro control for Brutes, A dps inherent for corrupters, a control increasing inherent for Doms, A "dps" inherent for stalkers. And eventually a Survivability related inherent for MMs. No conflicts.

So now the Brute and the Tankers shared turf is a bit muddy, that's all. You maintain that the way to go is to have Brutes do a good portion of the Tanking, even with Tanks on the team. Because basically of how fury works, and because they "can"

Instead I think Tankers should do the tanking (ideally but not exclusively) -- and that Brute's fury should be fixed to allow them to generate fury just as well in situations where the Tanker has all the aggro. After all the scrapper doesn't need aggro to do crits.

Its not that I don't understand anything - We are not speaking at the same level in this conversation.

I am speaking at the "This guy who lives in Michigan" level

And you are speaking at the "This guy who lives in Detroit, Michigan, Take I75 to exit 41, turn right, go 3.2 miles, turn left, fourth house on the right" level.

Whether or not its possible for Brute X to do Y is not where I am at.

I am at - Well if Brutes were regularly intended to do Y, maybe they should have done things a bit different.

The fact remains you have an AT who's inherent is an Aggro Generator and an AT who's inherent requires they have Aggro.

When they were designed there was no conflict from those things because Brutes and Tanks lived in different worlds. But now there is a contradiction in inherents.

If the Tanker taunts everything away, it hampers the brute's ability to do damage. If the brute taunts everything away and dies due to having less survivability - it could hamper the team.

Which of course is the main complaint we have seen against WP/ tankers since the set was released.

That they don't hold enough aggro with their taunt aura.

I was comparing a Scrapper's AAO taunt to a Tanker's RTTC Taunt.

Nope, I don't care about risks- as the game stands now you don't need any melee threat generating ATs to handle 99% of the content. Which is why I was surprised many upthread didn't think a SR/ Tanker would be durable enough.

But if they were to up the risk level, scrappers and brutes having better taunt auras than Tankers might be a problem.



On the contrary they gain every benefit you listed for brutes that had nothing to do with fury generation. Does it not make sense that scrappers have the taunt tools to "tank" for small teams, instead of just half the scrappers? Right now Brutes don't get a taunt aura in /EA .. that is being changed, and it sounds like it is being changed for Brutes AND Scrappers.

So basically are you also in favor of some Tanker auras having 10x the taunt duration as others. <When choosing your power set for Your Tanker, choose wisely.>

Since Taunt isn't really a part of a defensive set's main purpose - I do not see why there are such disparities. Are we to think that part of /Regen's survival is dependent on it not generating as much threat? If so what does that say for the coming Brute /Regen?

I wasn't part of GR Beta. And regardless just because someone important said X .. doesn't mean Y automatically makes the most sense.



Nothing in my suggestion stops those things. My suggestion was only to make a Tanker's taunt aura stronger than a Brute's which would be stronger than a Scrapper's.

Which would only cause problems for brutes looking to taunt things off of Tanks with their taunt aura.. which if a problem .. why is that?



I disagree. Especially since the function is a bit mushy to begin with. Does the Brute want to Tank when Tankers are on the Team? Or does the Brute need aggro for generating Fury?

Because my irrelevant suggestion is only potentially detrimental to Brutes when we add Tankers into the mix, and only if they want to take aggro from Tankers.

Which may be necessary, but why?

If Brutes are designed to steal aggro from Tankers on teams -- then maybe they should get *better* taunt abilities than Tankers do. And some kind of improved survivability.

But that leaves us wondering why the Tanker's Inherent is a AOE Taunt power. And why the Brute's inherent requires them to have aggro.

Wow. What "nerf" other than the one you suspect I called in the post you quoted have I ever called on brutes?

I wasn't calling for a "nerf" anyway. I was suggesting that the Taunt auras of Tankers, Brutes and Scrappers could be normalized for their AT, rather than by powerset. Which I believe was the original intent by giving Tankers higher Mag 4 vs 3 than brutes and scrappers. It just doesn't work because of the set disparities.

As it is I can easily make a scrapper with a better taunt aura than a WP Tanker. Leading to the complaints of scrapper players .. to the point that they like picking sets like /SR and /Regen because they have no taunt aura.

That situation is obviously not ideal. As someone suggested above its probably because they got the decimal point wrong on /WP in the first place and then refused to fix it. From what I understand its even possible a /WP Brute or scrapper has a better effective taunt aura than a WP Tanker - since the to hit debuff is larger on RTTC. And since the taunt duration is so low that makes a large difference.

Taunt auras are obviously something they mean to be part of defense sets for non-stalkers. Otherwise every new and proliferated set wouldn't have one. Also notice Shield didn't get a super weak Taunt Aura like WP, nor did the Brute /SR. Nor would they be adding one to /EA

To summarize I suggest that Scrappers should have the weakest Taunt Auras, Brutes the middle ground, and Tanks the strongest.

How that idea plays with other nerfs/buffs has nothing to do with it. If brutes are over-nerfed or Tanks over-buffed to the point that Brutes *need* to be competitive on taunt auras to Tanks .. then perhaps something else is wrong.

I do not think the idea is necessary to play any AT. It was an idea, that is all.

Oh I dont know - I have found every AT combo I tried that didnt have some recovery power started to regularily run out of END by level 9 or so.

So much so that level 12 and DOs for END reduction were a necessity just to stay sane. Even though they didnt solve the problem.

Just a guess .. but .. Because you had to wait till level 20

So .. you couldnt have it till then. And you had to squeeze 2 OTHER powers you didnt need in before 20.

Couldnt they instead make it so a particular damage buffed power doesnt get effected by Containment?

They do it with Scrapper's Crit and certain powers.