Great_Scott

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Their enhancements are diversified! It wasn't called player build diversification, though I'd wager builds are now more varied than they were prior to ED.

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I'd wager they aren't. All my previously-diversified builds (the various "experimental" toons I've worked on) are no longer playable, and have been either deleted or "cookie-cuttered".

I have seen diversity go down. It's a natural effect of the total ability of Characters being reduced.

Consider:

No Hasten? People are taking more attacks for their attack-chains, and less fun/different powers.

Less damage? People are taking Stamina when they did not before, in order to afford the END cost of using more total attacks.

Less Defense? People are taking more Defensive powers than they used to, in order to keep some level of survivability.

What I am seeing is that Players don't accept/understand that they are supposed to be weaker, so they feel driven to optimize their Characters, at an expense to playability and individuality.

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Do you have two Kin/Elec Defenders on Protector by chance, G.S?

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Yes, I do, the Brother-Sister pair Effervesence and Exuberance. Man, they are a blast to play. But boy, my hands get tired!

On a side note, it's simply amazing to me how useless /Kinetics is as a defensive set. Wow, do they take a lot of damage! Good thing /Kinetics has an awesome heal!

K, Xero, let's talk about "fun". I'm going to describe an in-game event that happened to me recently.

I was playing two Sonic/Sonic Defenders in Warburg.

Player X was playing a Claws/Energy Stalker in Warburg.

I was standing around in the middle (water area) of the zone, looking up my contact info... and "STAB!", Barrier Double loses half her health. Thank goodness for double Dispersion field! That would have been a one-shot!

I wonder why I didn't see him, since I have two Tactics up... triple-Stealthed? Weird.

I see the Stalker, so I target him with one of my toons and shoot back. Weird, the other toon isn't firing... ah, Aid Another doesn't work in PvP - forgot.

He SuperSpeeds away. I heal myself to full (medicine pool power) and get back to my Contacts screen.

At this point I keep an eye on my second monitor, and make sure that no one else is getting too close. I see some Brutes get close, and then leave. I guess they didn't feel like soloing against 2 Sonics?

"Stab!" Double Barrier loses half her health. Same Stalker as before. I target him with Shout, but he's too far away to hit, and I only tag him once. He SuperSpeeds off. Allright, now I'm annoyed.

I start hunting for this Stalker, using one of my Heroes by herself as bait. As soon as I start to see him, I jumped down from the building I was standing on, and manage to target him with both toons.

He sticks around until he's at half-health, and keeps attacking for minimal damage. Maybe he had to stay due to SS suppression? In any event, he Speeds away again.

I go to my mission, and come out. "STAB!" there he is again. I try to follow him, but he's just impossible to see. As I'm somewhat irritated, I hang around for him to attack again.

I try 6-stacking Clarity on myselves. No effect. Finally, after about 4 more attacks, I get a /Tell: "Die Already!"... to which I respond "Stop Hiding Already!".

Five minutes later I leave the zone.

Kills (Me): 0
Kills (Him): 0
Time spent (Me and Him): 45+ minutes.
Fun (Me and Him): None. A complete and total waste of time.

Games where neither side can win are no just un-fun, but a complete waste of time. I won't be bothering to hang around Warburg on Protector again any time soon.

I do have a question: why did my self-buffs work? I was under the impression that there was penetrating damage in PvP?

I hope this helps,
-> Scott.

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Um actually since ED doesnt ADD anything it cant BREAK anything by remving it except leting folks 6 slot powers again.

ED did not ADD one thing to the game, not one.

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You realize that the code showing how much you are getting to different variables from all the enhancements in a given power is part of the ED patch, right?

If they rollback the ED patch, they would have to code the enhancement display stuff back in.

And then do a Q&A check just to make sure no ghosts surface.

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I agree, rolling back ED, while a pleasant thing to think about, can't happen.

ED isn't the problem anyway, a skilled player can bypass the weird limitations that ED brings.

What REALLY needs to be repealed is the Issue 5 changes.

ED + No Issue 5 power alterations = good plan.

Of course, there are some selfish joykills that only care about other people's fun going down... but that doesn't matter, since everyone has their own opinion of what "fun" is, and that will always be the case.

I bought WoW the day it came out in November '04. I quit in the early days of January '05 with a 60 Hunter and 42 Rogue because the PvE game was too easy, except for EQ-style grinding in instances hoping for the 1% chance something would drop that would improve my character and someone else didn't win the roll for it. After five months of 2-5 Hate raids a week for Earthcaller I've had my fill of that. And I'd rather stab out my eye with a salad fork than get involved with PvP.

Isn't this a sign that you might perhaps be a awesome MMO player, and therefore have a skewed idea on difficulty?

Obviously I would be in favor of reworking the entire system. The current system is nothing but a kluge intended to keep the game from becoming a total snoozefest.

Snoozefest? For great players like you, perhaps. I find the game an awesome challenge on Heroic with my Invuln/EM Tank, and may not ever reach SO's. Of course, that toon only has one slot in armors, and two in attacks...

(I think it's hilarious that my oh-so-mighty "tank mage" PB doesn't dare raise the difficulty past Tenacious because +2 Voids will murder her.)

Er, you just said the game was too easy? I don't get it, if you crave difficulty, why not play your PB on Invincible?

I am far from the only person to point out that the game is too easy. The devs themselves have done so in these forums. I heard Mr. Emmert himself say it in person at one of the East Coast appearances.

He has not said so post-Issue 6. In fact, I doubt he will in the future, either, since they are designing Mobs better, as you point out.

This brings us back to: games that only work if the player refrains from putting "X" in the center square are inherently uninteresting.

Uninteresting? To you? Certainly. Of course, the fact remains that there are ways to make the game harder for you, but the game remains too hard for me.

I don't like the fact that we can't both get what we want, but the fact remains: you can play with the center square taken away, but I can't make the game any easier.

Issue 4 was: You have to be bothered to find challenge, and I was allright.
Issue 6 is: You are allright, but I have no way to reduce challenge.

This is not, as you assert, zero sum. I am the "loser", when before we could both "win".

But that's not what you want. You don't want "synergy". You don't want to need a Defender backing you up and Scrappers or Blasters providing the real offense.

I feel the need to point out that an All-Blaster team, under the current Issue, is sub-par. The game design was "anyone should be able to team and have success", NOT "anyone and a defender should be able to team and have success". Try a better argument?

Outgoing damage, which kills your enemy quickly, is the best way to mitigate INCOMING damage. That is, if your enemy is dead, they can't hurt you anymore.

There are a few Blasters who would like to speak with you about this principle.

As you yourself point out two paragraphs later, unbalanced teams are now broken. How is this good?

It may be "fun" but it was crocking the economy something wicked, to the point where they had to invent a whole new economy for base construction because there was no way to make the old one make sense.

This is not a compelling argument. There should be no balancing based on scarcity of an unlimited resource. The base game design was broken, the economy never made sense, and this is a Developer problem from the beginning. There isn't any way to blame Level 50's from acting this way...

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Err... How was I off in disagreeing with Gale, there?

I was disagreeing...

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You were claiming that this wasn't a major change: what I was trying to say is that you were both wrong, for completely different reasons.

I probably should have worded that better... in fact, I probably wouldn't bother to disagree with you except it pertained to my point.

I only wish that I had seen Castle's post, since I really didn't need to reply...

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(credit Pulsewave for the list)

Disorient, sleep, confuse, fear, immobilize, and hold duration
Knockback/up distance
Repel stregth
Run, fly speed
Defense, Accuracy (tohit) Buffs
Heal
Endurance Drain/Modification

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QFE. I'm still ticked that my Blapper does Scrapper damage, but at least now I can consider getting Scrapper defenses along with that "meh" damage.

Well, no status protection, but... I'll take it.

Will there ever be Energy Melee for Scrappers? Doesn't look like it, but at least I can emulate a EM/SR again, now.

And, no, post-ED, that build isn't overpowered. If anything, Blappers (concept ones, anyway) are a little weak.

After all, Blasters can't do more DoT than Scrappers if they are dead - and no one is doing decent burst damage any more, by design (ED).

Heck, I even get to have my Smashing damage heavily resisted - I'm almost a Scrapper that way, too!

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A while ago, peoople have requested something be done. Well, we've done a bunch of work and done this. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless of their rank or level. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense.

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The devs get 20 points for listening to the playerbase, 10 points for giving a boost to SR Scrappers, and 10 points for the same to Ice Tanks.

...however, they get -50 points for making yet *another* fundamental alternation to their game engine without warning.

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That seems sort of strange.

One, they didn't change the engine at all. They just moved some values around in the existing engine. Maybe that's an overly technical point.

Two, and more importantly, would you rather they left something that was desperately broken alone? That part confuses me badly. I applaud a sweeping change when it's needed.

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Wow, Silver Gale is really off today. Then again, so are you, Uber.

First of all, this is most definiately a major change, possibly even a "tweak", as States calls them.

Second, this is the most warning that we've had for such a major change, ever.

Think about it: not only do we not know the release time for I7, we don't even have an idea of when it will hit Test. I'm sure someone will correct me, but that's a Ton of Warning.

And I'm very happy to be able to say that!

Awesome!

This is a great idea... mission difficulty will now scale more, without making any changes to the players.

A Great Change. I'm looking forward to see what else is in Issue 7.

Thanks, States!
-> Scott.

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As to that - Screw shields! Gimme lightning melee/Armor for my damn scrapper!

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I don't think Scrappers or Stalkers are getting elemental damage sets... ever.

It's the same argument as not giving Super Strength to Scrappers... Who would play Blasters/Tanks then?

I don't think we're ever going to get Developers to admit that Scranks and Blappers are a phenomenon caused by poor game design.

Poor both in the sense that we were overpowered enough for those play-styles to work, and poor in the sense that they were needed.

I disagree.

Shields would be a neat and different attack set, one that specializes in both some range, and some defense.

As far as the "any Hero can learn" argument goes, is it realistic (or even thematic?) that my Martial Artist knows no punching moves...at all?

Street Fighting wouldn't be unique - it would be needed, though. There simply isn't a punching-based set available to Scrappers/Stalkers, other than Dark Melee, which is... Dark and hard to see. And not alway thematic.

Although you didn't mention it, pistols would be a unique set: all "short range" attacks. While Claws and Spines have ranged attacks, range isn't the core of those sets.

So, yes, both Shield and Street Fighting are strong enough for thier own set... not from a "uniqueness" standpoint, but from a "Thank <$diety> I can Remake my Super Strength Tank as a Scrapper" standpoint.

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1acc/3dam/1rec-rec/1end-red is in place, so the end reduction on top of the global end reduction is overcoming the loss of 3 slots in stamina.

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That's very odd.

Doesn't the 1/3 reduction in recharge time and the 1/3 reduction in END use (from enhancements) balance out?

In theory, you should be using the exact same amount of END/Time as if you attacks were not enhanced with that END reduction.

Is there some other reason that you aren't feeling the END drain any more? The recharge increase and lack of END drop from Hasten, maybe?

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Wrong. We want a fix that makes it fun for both sides, not just one.

I'm curious Kellen, why don't we put mobs in the PvP zones that can do this as well? Is it some how "fun" when it can only come from another player? Seriously, let's put Bounty Hunter Mobs that can see Stealthed Stalkers and one-shot them along with everyone else.

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I agree. The functional problem with the game is that "fun" can only happen when someone has an advantage.

This is the antithesis of balance, of course.

The root problem with the customizable system of Hero generation is that every AT can get some of the functions of another. Doing both your own "job" and someone else's "job" will break the overall balance.

One solution is to make everyone bad at alternate jobs. This makes Teaming required.

Another is to make everyone bad at their own jobs. This make the game less fun.

In typical Cryptic fashion, I'm betting that Hide will be nerfed, and then Perception will be nerfed as well. At the same time, Hide will no longer stack with pool powers and most buffs.

This will "solve" the "problem".

Of course, the real answer is to make no changes at all. My limited PvP experience leads me to believe that since "Hiding" is the whole point of the AT, they should be allowed to do it.

Last I checked, AS simply takes too long to pull off to be abused. As far as Crits? Let them happen...

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Since Damage is king, and, at higher levels, damage mitigation is increasingly important, we would HAVE to have Defenders (and therefore tanks) on the team. This means we actually have PLAYERS suggesting that we recreate the EQ triad, NOT the DEVs.

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Er, Tom, I don't get it.

You DO realize that it was States himself that stated (paraphrasing here), "Tank Power +RES limits in Issue 5 exist so that Sonic Defenders have a job"?

What the players think or don't think is irrelevant. The "balance vision" is that Defenders/Controllers and the Melee classes should be interdependant.

I know that my Empath lost all her attack powers (and attack slots) to pick up the Fitness pool.

For most Defender builds that are somewhat Team-centric, a Level 40 and under toon can't put out enough damage to solo on Heroic.

I can't imagine that this is unintended...

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I am unsuprised to note that Step #4 is missing. Proving, as I expected, that this claim was hyperbole. There is simply no way to troll logical arguments.

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Of course there isn't, Pilcrow. Logical Arguments and Logical-seeming arguments are... not the same thing.

Good point, though!

Although you have a point about the delay, making up a "fake dialog" defining the difference between the two is a pain.

You're, of course, also ignoring the fact that posting an "overly emotional" response works even on "real" logical threads, as I've posted in Step 3, which you read.

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But wait! You completely left out the part about bumping your thread using your second forum account!

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This is actually going to be covered in the addendum entitled "Stupid Forum Tricks".

Actually, I need to register a name for my other account. Thanks for the reminder!

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You wrote that whole thing just as a cover so you could point out the irony of your avatar... didn't you! CONFESS!

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Actually, this isn't far from the truth...

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Oh come on, honestly. What kind of self-important sycophant makes a guide about trolling. It's not like trolls actually need help doing it, and it's not like we want to create MORE of them with some kind of Do It Yourself manual. Ridiculous.


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Actually, there are vanishing few proper Trolls on these boards.

Based on this post, you're pretty good, though.

Keep it up!

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Doesn't that make you feel better?

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I've read your troll guide, sir. Doesn't that make you feel better?

And just to clear things up, I have no problems with the AI wobbling away from the unstoppable death machine that just stunned it. My problem is solely with the instances in which the wobbling does not occur.

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Thanks!

Really? Interesting. In that case, I recommend posting in support of "% chance increase" Enhancements.

No, disorient is useful on Villains, just like it is on Heroes.

Small problem: All Villain powers are Clicks. Even movement powers.

So, just like a human player, a Villain's AI says "get away, you're mezzed!".

And they do. Since they are gifted with Hurdle automatically, and since all movement powers are Clicks, they don't drop when the villain is "mezzed".

See? It's quite simple. Disorient doesn't suck, this is all just a side-effect of the game engine!

Doesn't that make you feel better?

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Brute/Scrapper/Stalker=1
MasterMind/Dominator/Controller=2
Corruptor/Blaster=3
Tank/Defender=4
Kheldian=5

"Fun" = ((AT# * Team Size - 4 [minimum 1]) + (Number of Missions Completed * AT#) + 1 [for each badge earned] + 100 [for each Level and/or Accolade earned]) / (# of Hours of the play session + # of Defeats + ((10 - Team Size [minimum 1]) * # of Team Wipes)


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I think you have made an error in your calculation, or at the very least have made a bad approximation. Rather than 3 and 4, Defenders and Blasters should both have a value of approximately 3.1415.

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Ah. A common mistake. Note that I was responding in the "Logical" style, not the "Feeling" style.

Pi(e) belongs in "Feeling" posts.

Also, Defenders are more Team oriented than Blasters, giving them a .8585 bonus to the chart.

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You realize of course that after reading this post no one will ever post again for fear of appearing to be that which they are when ...

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Yes, exactly! This is multi-tiered evil, the more you think about it...

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I feel the need to comment on this, but how do you troll a troll guide?


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Well, if you read the guide, you'd have seen the reasonable tone of the post, and screamed some kind of rant about how Trolls are evil.

I really like your post, regardless.

Step 3: Logic vs. Emotion: Opposites Attract.

There are as many types of posters as there are posters, so I won't get into cheap generalizations. That said, there are two main types of posters.

There are people who post using logical-seeming, dry arguments, and there are people who post with feeling, and little else. One or the other type will typically dominate a thread. The rare few people with actual logical arguments don't concern us - such rare beasts are harmless until aggro'd. It's a good idea not to aggro them - they make terrible opponents, in both meanings of the phrase.

Neither style is more effective, although at first glance logical-seeming arguments appear better...until I get to Step 4, and turn you into a rampaging Captain Ahab of logical-seeming arguments.

Once you've picked a topic, and want to initiate a discussion, the best way to proceed is to package your reply in the opposite manner of the person you're responding to (alternatively, opposite of the main style of the thread, if you are not replying directly). I'll give an example below:

Poster 1: I <heart> the ED Changes! They make everything "FUN" and more new! Go, GO, GOOO, Statesman! Whiners begone, we really can have F-U-N now. Oh yeah, I like pie!

Great Scott: That's nice. While it's good that you're having fun, it's important to remember that not everyone shares the same Challenge/Frustration threshold as you. That's, of course, assuming that the AT and power sets that they picked happen to be equally affected by the slotting changes. In fact, we can even find the equation for fun, and I'll outline it here:

Brute/Scrapper/Stalker=1
MasterMind/Dominator/Controller=2
Corruptor/Blaster=3
Tank/Defender=4
Kheldian=5

"Fun" = ((AT# * Team Size - 4 [minimum 1]) + (Number of Missions Completed * AT#) + 1 [for each badge earned] + 100 [for each Level and/or Accolade earned]) / (# of Hours of the play session + # of Defeats + ((10 - Team Size [minimum 1]) * # of Team Wipes)

Since "fun" is equal to rewards divided by time spent + defeats, mathematically, we aren't having as much "fun" as we were before. Sadly, the level of acceptable "fun" isn't something that we can consciously choose. Every time the "fun" level drops, more people leave. That's a problem in any MMO, even a solo-friendly one like CoH.

If this logical-seeming reply didn't get a large response I would be shocked. There is some risk that the reply is so far out of whack with the style of the thread that it will be ignored outright. I've compensated for that by posting an outrageous "number-thing". If this had been a logic-heavy thread, I'd have posted a "feeling-thing" (such as "I like pie!").

I've also covered my bases by ensuring that the equation is solvable, and for many players, may even work to describe "fun" for most situations. In any event, discussion should ensue.

An important point to keep in mind as I finish this topic is that very few people on the message boards are truly dispassionate. Burned out? Maybe. Bored? Unlikely, but possible. My take on this is that anyone who joins a time-consuming MMO and posts on the message boards cares about the game.

Don't let anyone fool you with the tired old "I couldn't care less" attitude. If they didn't care, they wouldn't have typed out their thoughts and hit "send"; they'd be making origami out of X-Men #1.