Gangrel_EU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flH67ywGaBU

Well, dont forget the nice holidays abroad (or around your own country) for Gaming Conventions, the player/dev meets etc etc

Overall... i would say that it can end up *financially* in your favour, especially if you enjoy it.

But yes, the *personal free* account is just *ONE* benefit that they get.

*edit* I forgot about the massages that were on offer for staff down in Brighton when that office was more active.

Personally i enjoyed the D10 system, particularly in Aberrant/Trinity. oWoD i tended to avoid mass dice rolls, but that was more due to my DM'ing style.

Shadowrun 2nd Edition still is IMHO one of the best (unfortunately some updates were required to make it better), and i *STILL* need to find someone to run Earthdawn with, and also maybe some nice Star Wars D6 era...

Hell, for a "magic based" system, i still reckon that Ars Magica was one of the most flexible ones out there.

Although it doesn't stop him from using stuff from EU books, and then integrating into his own films, therefore taking stuff to the top level of canon. e.g. Coruscant[1], swoop bikes[2], a few ships, a few Jedi. They were *ALL* created by various authors/comic book writers (Timothy Zahn for example), and then got used in George Lucas products, thus making them official.

((for more info on Glowy Sword canon, check this out. It is actually quite amazing the amount of stuff that needs to be tracked, and how it all fits together, and also how in that there are various levels to work with.))

[1]Corusant is interesting, as it 1st appeared in 1982 un-named (it was just the Imperial capital, and then Zahn named it in his Heir To The Empire book (1991), and then Lucas was persuaded to use the name in the films... tis a strange world. This makes the planet name *canon*.

[2] 1st appeared in Han Solo's Revenge (1979) written by Brian Daley, later put into SW:A New Hope (special edition). This makes it *canon*.

I find it *very very* hard to actually roll another character in most MMO's unless there actually *IS* a different story for it to experience. The class quests in the laser sword MMO do help that.

CoX took me over 4 years for me to get my 2nd 50.. granted it was villain side (1st 50 was hero side), but now i just don't have the motivation to level up another character.. because i have already seen the early several times. And it is this "repetition of content just to try out a different powerset" that puts me off from replaying the content. I must have done Atlas park/Kings row more times than i care to imagine, and if anything, it just drives me up the wall.

I guess that is the "completionist" in me, in that i would rather do *all* the content on one character, instead of having to keep track of what I have done on one character, so I know NOT to do it on the next character.

Sure, I still havent done ALL the content available heroside so far, but I know that I CAN do all the content heroside, and then go and do the same villain side if i so desire.

*shrugs* Still love CoX when i get onto my 50 though....

*BOOM* Go get them monkeys!

So, what basics would you assume should be included in ALL MMO's, and why should they be included.

Does this include stuff that, if it were included, would break the "lore" of the game world just for convenience sake of the players ie team up teleporter/Mission TP for example...

I am interested by this, because there are *some* things that i feel that CoX gets horribly wrong (level capped contacts which then results in the "broken" TF style Oroborus flashback system)... and yet, would this be included as an "essential" part of an MMO?

Most other MMO's tend to just have a minimum level requirement for a mission giver, i cannot think of ONE that has a "maximum" level requirement on top of the minimum.

The Mission TP is a *great* boon for CoX, especially for TF's that run across several zones... it is even better when used in conjunction with "Assemble the team", but are these actually *essential* for a game?

Because to be honest, without them, the game is *fine*... they are just a QoL bought convenience.

I can agree with that, in that there is no set path. Hell, even now I tend to just "go with the flow" and very rarely plan out what contact to choose next. I believe that this is because I am so used to having the ability to just "run back and talk" to an outleveled mission giver, and then start their mission chain at a far later date.

Side note: The last MMO that i hit the cap in, i actually hit it just over halfway through one of the 2 "45-50" zones. I then went back and started to do the content that I had missed out on (the "item drop" quests, the "hidden" quest givers from the low level zones that i missed out on) etc.

In CoX you *can* find yourself locked out from contacts. This is typically because the contact system is a bit stupid in my mind, and that if you are *over* the cap for a contact, you have to go and use Oroborus to replay the missed content... which puts you into TF mode, which then prevents you from getting help from a friend for a particularly tricky boss/contact unless you want to restart the whole arc again from scratch (it can happen depending on your build... and typically arises at the end of the arc, which can lead to resentment for wasted time/effort)

Other MMO's tend to go the other way, and just have a *minimum* level limit to gain access to said content (they don't care if you are 20 levels above the recommended level, at least you can go and do it).

First Ward for example is 20-29... which means that higher level characters have to use Oroborus to run the content.

Yes, I know that I can stop XP for it, but for a *new* player, who doesnt necessarily know the in's and out's of the game system, it can be a shock. Other MMO's dont have this "disable XP" option (well, not one that I know of).

Other sandbox MMORPG's would disagree with you on that one.

I do agree that crafting *in and of* itself does not make an MMO from "Themepark" to "sandbox". It does help though.

(And if you actually look at the system and what the system requires, there can indeed be a reason for cooking! Typically buffs for the players though)

The fact that non combat activities *do not* reward you, in my mind at least, and quite possibly a few others, makes the game more "theme park" than "sandbox".

And strangely enough, a sandbox MMORPG tends to *skip* those parts as well. Well, apart from the maintaining gear... the difference between a sandbox and a themepark MMO in this case is that in a themepark MMORPG you hit repair, and its back. In a sandbox MMORPG, you have to go out and buy a new one.

I would disagree on this part. You might have a very good combat simulator with a huge open world. But what can a non combat person do?

There is a sandbox MMORPG that is *entirely* non combat, and is entirely dependent on player/player interaction to progress.

If you look at the more traditional pen and paper RPG's... you *could* play a non combat character. Sure, the XP systems varied wildly, and character levels were included in some of them (most notably Dungeons and Dragons, there are others out there), but there were also a lot of other RPG's out there that eschewed the "character level" concept.

Those RPG's allowed a newer player into an established group far easier. They had the same number of hit points (more often than not), and more often than not they allowed a character to be *created and developed* as the person desired (Shadowrun/Cyberpunk 2020/Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay/Ars Magica/White Wolf's D10 system etc etc).

The "Themepark" style would be the "GM lead and dictated" style of game; whilst the "sandbox" style would be the "player lead" style of game.

Obviously a tabletop RPG is more sandbox than themepark anyway, due to the huge potential for stuff to change on the fly due to player actions... but that just reinforces my point.

A sandbox is where the developer/GM has *no* control over the eventual actions of the player... in fact, the players might decide to suddenly go off in totally the *wrong* direction and just pillage everything in their sight. That is a distinct possibility.

In a themepark though... the developer/GM *prevent* the players from being able to go off the rails, they *force* the route that the players have to go

How much freedom that is available for the players to act (and progress) is what ultimately differentiates between "Theme park" and "sandbox". And this is why i state that valid "non combat" routes to progress your character are pretty much essential in the "sandbox" MMORPG. If combat is the *only* option to play in a game, than at most, i would call it "open world".

And to be honest, I tend to avoid using "sandbox" for single player games as well, because once again, the developers typically have a plot for the player to follow (once again there are exceptions.. but non puzzle wise they are few and far between until you start hitting the "simulation" side of stuff!)

The annoying thing is that due to the fact that *most* (if not all) "sandbox" MMORPG's feature an element/side helping/full dinner plate) of PvP does also put people off from playing them (even if it is purely consensual... see UO post Trammel).. *HOWEVER* on the flip side, it does allow more emergent gameplay to arise.

A "Theme park" MMORPG is very limited in the "emergent gameplay" front. Pretty much the result of your action (or inaction) has already been scripted for. A sandbox MMORPG does *not* rely on this; indeed, it could be said that the Sandbox MMORPG is *reliant* upon the "emergent gameplay" that arises due to heavy player/player interactions.

In fact, i would say that this is because the "player/player" interaction is at the forefront of the developers mind, and not the "player/developer created story"

As i stated, there are some *marvelous* sandbox elements for City of Heroes. The character creator is one of them (purely because at least cosmetically you can pretty much make anything you want... as long as it is humanoid in shape), but the AE is also another side (because the developers gave us tools to make something). But apart from that, the flexibility of the game to allow us to do what we want in the "open game world" is not a lot.

Sure we can explore with minimal level restrictions (although Cimmermoria is a notable exception to this... especially considering you can unlock it at level 10!).

But apart from that, there is really not much else that you can do without having to resort to combat.

Note: It is FAR FAR easier to make a "sandbox" MMORPG into a "themepark" MMORPG, than it is to turn it the other way around. You just add in more restrictions. REMOVING the restrictions though, requires far more effort on the developers side, especially if the game initially wasn't designed to take them into consideration.

*rewrote this about 30 different times, trying to get idea's across. In the end this mess is what I came up with and hammered submit to!*

Two videos i know of that *might* help explain a bit more as to how much flexibility a sandbox has over a themepark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08hmqyejCYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0I

Strangely enough, it *was* on Steam... but that was before it went F2P.

Not sure what NCsoft would have to do to get it back up there, but i do agree that it would be an excellent move for them now that it has transitioned from Subscription only to the Hybrid model.

The thing is though, "Sandbox", "Linear", "Themepark" are just labels to quickly set an idea across, more notably between actual game play mechanics than anything else.

"Linear" and "Themepark" are pretty much swappable between the same style of MMORPG. WoW/CoX/SWTOR/Rift/Aion/Guild Wars style of game. You go from A to B to C to D to E... there is a well laid route for you. There might be a lot of separate routes for you, but there is still an over reaching goal that the developers would *love* for you to reach. Walk off that path, and it gets very difficult very fast.

A "Sandbox" is where the developers DO NOT have a goal for the players to complete... it is an open world for the players to act out in. There will be some hard and fast rules (the actual mechanics of the game), but a lot of the time, there is also a lot more freedom in the game itself for you to be able to do what you want to do, with relevant punishment if need be. (Eve Online, Star Wars Galaxies (pre New Game Edition release), Ultima Online, Darkfall, Mortal Online)

A quick and easy guide (for MMO game mechanics at least):

If it has CHARACTER levels: Themepark/Linear (character dinging as main form of player advancement). Gear limited to Character of "X level" is also a good indicator.
If it has SKILL levels: It is Sandbox (skill dinging as main form of player advancement).

That for me has worked so far (touch wood)

Another guideline is "you should not be FORCED to take combat skills (or advance them if all characters start with them) if the game setting allows it"; I put the advance one in because pretty much every single Sandbox MMO has *some* form of combat skill, even if it is just as a "starter" skill. It allows you to defend yourself if need be. eg Miner/Industry/Trading character from Eve Online. The Entertainer skill set from Star Wars Galaxies, advanced by *dancing* and got more XP if people actually sat and watched them (the player watching needed to type in /watch as well!), otherwise the XP gain was normal.

Also to advance your character you should not have to go out and kill 10 rats, kill 20 snakes, carry to X, escort G to location H etc etc.

Flexible character creation system is easy enough term. It is a mouthful though. So I would be inclined to go for "Open character creation system". This is because i would say that the developers *HAVE* given you the tools to make whatever you want (and it is *very* flexible for CoX... other games can be far far more limited), and what isn't available you can generally jimmy around a bit to fit in the concept to a "good enough" state. Also this is also due to the actual *genre* of the game that CoX is based in, which by itself allows pretty much anything to be included (Alien, Predator, Robocop have all appeared in Superhero comics at one point or another.. Hell The Joker was in Judge Dredd at one point)

However, the *actual* CoX gameplay system is very linear. You do have to go from A to B to C to D. You ding and you have a limited choice of what to advance next, you know that at level 10 a player will have X number of abilities, at level 30 Y number of abilities etc; and it is very very very hard to actually skip too far ahead of yourself (due to character levels and how combat works)

Side note: In a skill based system, enough "newbie" characters should be able to swarm out an established character (or even a tough NPC). Goonswarm have a handy image for this:

The incident that the image refers to... that could have been done by a *brand new* 1 day old character.

Pretty much, there are other games out there that fall into the sandbox category.

I would instead call games of the GTA styling as "open world" instead of "sandbox". More because you are *not* free to go where ever you want.. you actually have to unlock areas in GTA by doing the plot story line. Prototype is another example of an "open world" game. You cannot go right to the end and beat up the final boss without having to do a load of missions before hand.

I would personally say "yes". But that is so that you can see *what* an effect a player has had on the game world. As soon as you start instancing, that breaks it up (there can be exceptions to this rule for showing the inside of a players house, but the exterior everyone should be able to see).

Incredible machine is a puzzle game, so it unfortunately doesnt fit into the "sandbox" category... unless you actually *make* your own rube-goldberg machines for it (then it is!).

Little Big Planet "single player" mode is *not* a sandbox, it is a puzzle game. HOWEVER, its creation mode IS a sandbox... but then when you download *someone elses* creation, it no longer is a sandbox.

Then in that case ALL mmo's are "sandbox" MMO's.

Well according to what you have just said... then all RPG games are "sandbox" styled. It all depends on how you play the game.

I would say that City of Heroes *DOES* have a very excellent Sandbox for creating your character. You are not limited to what you can make (ok, you need a head, arms and legs... but apart from that, your imagination is your limit).

Anyways, back to the question of "what makes a sandbox MMO":

To me, a lack of "developer chosen" goal is a sign of a sandbox MMO. The player is one who chooses their goal (whatever it may be).

There have to be several valid ways to actually *play* the game. ie crafting/combat/exploration all need to be actually valid play styles. You shouldnt be forced to go from A to B to do stuff to enable to you to be able to go to C to do the same to go to D etc to get to the end. If you wanted to, you could go from A to F and voila, you are able to do it.

As minimal "scripted hand holding" as possible. I will let the tutorial slip on this part, as the tutorial is there to actually *teach* you how to play the game. However, once you have completed that... You are on your own. The developer might drop you "tid bits" of stuff to get you going, but the onus is really on the player to decide to what to do and how to get there.

I would also have to say that the ripple effect would also be a factor ie I gather up all of the stuff from location X, raising the prices in location A (due to lack of supply). I sell the stuff in Location B, dropping the price there. There is now a trade route available between A and B (for others to fill in). THAT would help make a game more "sandboxy".

Annoyingly, i cannot easily think of a sandbox MMO that would work with "character levels" like the traditional linear/themepark MMO. I would say that if you were PvPing; then player skills would have to have a chance to tip the balance instead of relying on the "age" of the character.

So the more "skill set based" games inherently lend themselves to being more "sandbox". You need the choice to be able to choose what to take, when you take it, and have minimal limitation in terms of what you can take.

I am also inclined to believe that there is minimal dev created plot. The players are the ones who make the plot through their interactions. The developers are free to add in new stuff to the game... and to progress their OWN plot. But it never takes center stage. It should almost be more "background fluff" than anything else.

Example of this is in the big space faring MMO. They introduced Incursions (an NPC faction raiding both NPC and player owned space (high sec/low sec/ 0.0 space). Not a single region of space could avoid the *potential* for being raided by them.

It was to add in another way of earning ingame cash whilst getting non PvPers to use PvP fits (the more traditional PvE fits were not always suitable for it).

Whereas in contrast to CoX for example... pretty much every single expansion has added more content that advances (or introduces) a developer created main line story arc. The characters are the one who "act out the story". If you choose not to do it, what else is there for you to do? Are you still able to advance your character?

Can you realistically advance your character by doing no "dev generated stuff"?

The only real sandbox *once you are past* the character creation is the AE to make your own content, and the tailor (although i would still put that in the character creation section).

Also, you need to have the ability to make a *lasting* impression in the server that everyone has the potential to see. So player made housing/structures are very handy for this.

There is no one singular thing that differentiates a game between a sandbox or a Themepark MMO. They can indeed share features across the board.

If CoX suddenly introduced player housing, which you could actually decorate, other players could see the outside of (i will allow the interior to be instanced!), then that would move it closer to being a "sandbox".

If CoX allowed player to choose *any* combination of powers... or even to focus on just 2 or 3 abilities, then that would be more Sandboxy ie if you could take Footstomp and Fire Cages only, that would indeed be more interesting, especially if you could *focus your development into them*

A good definition that i read recently is
Objective here I would also read as including "and this includes taking out the Grand PooBah Blinky to stop him from unleashing his uber weapon of awesomesauce".

That is developer plot... in a sandbox, you *shouldn't* need that big of a stick to do something. It should add more "flavour" to the world.

Unfortunately, sandbox MMO's also tend to include *some form* of Player Vs Player conflict. So they are *not* entirely suitable for everyone. Safe zones are the exception rather than the norm.

Eve Online probably gets a lot of press concerning its sandbox, and how the alliances work together/against each other; their backstabbing, collaborations, side switching and so on. Sometimes it is just to "change the look of the universe"... other times it is more steeped in ingame lore (CVA/Ushra'Khan alliances battle for Providence).

Sure, Eve Online has its "high sec" regions of space, where you *more* safe than if you were in Low sec.

But you are not 100% safe.

Infact you would have to stay docked up to be 100% safe (hello market gameplay... the more "spreadsheet side of the game!)

Some of the stuff i agree with are taken from Massively as it was a question that was asked recently.

Unfortunately you cannot just stick a flag in the ground and say "if it has this is must be a sandbox". Because there *are* MMO's who have X feature and are NOT Sandbox MMO's. It is more a combination of features that make it a sandbox (and even then, a balance has to be struck across the board); but if there was one... it would have to be "heavy focus of "player/player interaction" and not "Player Vs Developer stuff"

Developers add in the tools, the players build what they can with it. The developers add in more tools to allow them to do more stuff (or to mix up the status quo possibly) and the players still run with it.

If the new stuff is to help you "take down Grand BooPah Bob", then I would be heavily inclined to throw that stuff into "theme park" mode.

Me, i have no real problems posting up the picture of "me" in Firebase Zulu, it also isnt the 1st game I had an NPC named after me.

Bridger I found *once*, other red names that i remember seeing are Kerensky, Ghostraptor, Aero (all with their real name surnames)... they were *not* in the Shadowshard before the Omega Sektor player meet though.

Annoyingly though... CoX isnt a "sandbox" MMO in the more traditional sense. But that is more because of what I view a "sandbox" MMO to be compared to a "Themepark" MMO.

All MMO's however *can* have elements of a sandbox, but how big that sandbox varies from game to game.

Easy enough.

Here is my toon in Firebase Zulu

I can confirm this... Having found myself, Z, my other half and numerous other EU based players.

Previously, they might have been "random" names, but EU players are *definitely* in Firebase Zulu as soldiers (although they do randomly cycle through when they run despawn/respawn).

I have a screenshot of my soldier telling Z's soldier off laying around somewhere.

I don't think she is pulling our leg. There more than likely is an explanation behind it all.

Of course... anyone wondered where all the names from the soldiers in Firebase Zulu came from?

Game and Gamestation are both one and the same (GAME own Gamestation), I never mentioned gameplay..... (I *DID* mention Play.com however!)

Gamestation Wrexham for me, where i was working at that point in time, and even 7 years ago, PC gaming was relegated to a small section of an already small store.

Basically they couldnt agree to lending/credit terms with EA... Got the email yesterda with £5 voucher to use with their online store, and I re-ordered with Play.com

Not going to happen (ME3 hitting steam).

Steam and EA have had a falling out remember so some of their titles will no longer be carried (Dragon Age 2 for example).

side note: Sucks that the major game retailer in the UK isnt going to be stocking it for financial reasons.... RIP Game/Gamestation

To be honest, i was *lucky* to hear about CoX.... i heard about it from a Co-worker of mine, and a gaming magazine carried 1 (yes 1) single page advert/spread in each of the 2 issues up to launch (which if you were not paying attention, you could easily miss anyway. As far as i can remember, there were no "LOOK AT ME ON THE FRONT COVER" kinda things. (side note: however, they did give away trial accounts at one point a few years later on a cover disc!)

They then mentioned *nothing* of it for a few months, until CoV was in the launch window.... and then coverage stopped again.

And I live in the UK... so being Euro based made it a bit harder to track down, especially if you were *not* a huge gamer/visited comic book stockists on a regular basis etc etc

*shrugs*

Nowadays with twitter/facebook/social networking, stuff spreads so fast it is unbelievable. Back then, it was still pretty slow.

She did it from CoV launch (i remember seeing her at the Brighton Comic-Con 2005) till her last appearance that *I* can remember of an NCsoft Europe staff Christmas Party competition in 2008/9 ish (not as an NCsoft character i believe... blame Creative Concepts before they all moved on)

Scared many a small child as well in that outfit.

The "Marilyn Manson" comment... semi true, she *does* do fetish modelling.

I wouldn't call it "publicly bashing"... it was just explaining how another MMO mechanism works. He also didn't *name* said MMO.

But i do have to agree with Zwill on this one. I do tend to space through the conversations in that MMO. BUT i do have a tab set up for NPC conversation, so i still get the complete options (why waste 1 minute listening to something when i can read it in 5-10 seconds)

I do believe that the addition of a "start mission" text at the bottom of the 1st window of a conversation should be present *UNLESS* there is a decision to be made that will affect how the mission is played out, then you just skip to the choice window instead.

I do feel that they are trying to do this with the newer content, ie having more updates viewable *inside* said mission and not just limited to the mission giver... however, that is a minority, and I would imagine that retrofitting it to *all* mission text would be a *huge* undertaking.

The "non optional" glowies are already present in a few missions... granted, they do only produce "clues" for the mission owner, but they are indeed present.

Could clicking one trigger something that the whole team can see? Not so sure, but it should be do-able.

Look to previous answer i gave, i do believe that they are actually trying to do it *already* in their newer content (SSA's/TF/iTrial/some newer missions)