Faultline_EU

Heard you'd gone for a PB False.

Quite agree, human attacks are a little light on slots. Mine are slotted 1 acc, 3 dmg, 1 end rec, 1 recharge. With hasten running I can dish out some respectable damage in human form (when not asleep/stunned/on my backside). I prefer recharge and some heal in Essence Boost and Reform Essence as I think it's better to have them up when needed than be waiting for a big heal. Personal preference tho. Drop the to hit buffs from Nova, they don't help much - less than an SO if I remember rightly. Better slotting the Nova AoE attacks with acc, don't want them to miss.

Agree that running your shields when in Lightform gives more than enough resistance so might want to change those damage res to recharge - it takes an age to recharge and you don't want to be without it when you need it.

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I do know that Kheldian adapts to its team, e.g. if it is on a team full of blasters, it will be better at blasting.

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That's a WS, they gain damage bonuses from blasters and scrappers and resistance bonuses from defenders and tanks. It's the opposite for PBs. One builds on the teams strength and the other tries to balance the team.

Nova bonus is 45% and base damage is 20% more than blaster/scrappers. Or at least it was according to the old guide I go by.

I'd never just go all human blaster. Far as I can tell the human aoe blasts are about half as powerful, use more end and have much shorter range. Same for the other two when compared to the nova equivalent. Gleaming blast is the odd one out...

I just wouldn't feel like I was doing much with just human blasting. Anyway, the OP didn't say anything about human only I think, so you could open up with the nova AoE, then drop to human after a small barrage and finish off.

I never really intended this to be a discussion about aggro limits, facing +5s, herding whole maps, nerfs to armours etc.. For me tanking has always and will always be taking on one group, holding most of the aggro, clearing it and then moving onto the next. The basics. All tanks should have the ability to get most of the aggro from one group - your aura, an aoe and one taunt should about cover it in short order. The support they need will depend on their build. A maxed out build will need virtually no support. Someone else might need lots. Not really the issue. My problem was just how the art of tanking seems to be vanishing.

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New tanks basically have to scrank for half the game because they can't tank. So, they get used to it, their playstyle develops based on scranking, rather than aggro management. After 25 levels of doing it, it's hard to change your habits - equally, other players who have grown up with you don't expect you to be able to tank.

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I'll agree with a lot of that. It did get me thinking though. Back when I started tanking I knew nothing about it. It took a long time to learn all the tricks. Heh, I remember hovering around the first respect because I heard that hover gave a defence bonus! I learnt to manage aggro because that was what teams expected and I wanted to be a good team player. Being an unkillable scranker was easy back then but it didn't get you teams. So I'm just wondering if the reason there are so many scrankers nowadays is because there is no incentive anymore to be anything else? As Spad says, people have leveled up in teams with scrankers, it's what they expect and so the tanks never even bother to change their playstyle.

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I dont think its totally down to the tanks. Nowadays it seems teams wont give you just even 2 secs to consolidate the agro b4 they begin there AoEs.

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I'll agree with that - overly keen to say the least. Led to a couple of unfortunate incidents last night where everyone shouted "Ready", I tp'ed into one group and the rest of the team instantly charged straight at another in the opposite direction. I really need to bind "D'oh" for when that happens.

Faulty's rule number two - always wait to see where I'm going before attacking.

As Sundae slowly edges her way to 50, I get to see a lot of supposedly experienced tanks in action. I'm rarely impressed. I'll be on a team that is struggling or suffers a near teamwipe and the call will go out for a tank. He or she will arrive, everyone will breathe a little easier and we'll move onto the next group. Things are easier but one or two people still die, I still have to use my self heal or change to dwarf and yet no one seems to notice.

Is this what people now expect from a tank? Have they listened to all the talk about how much tanks have been nerfed and can't handle aggro and believe this is as good as it gets? Are there so few good tanks out there now that this is the reality of having one on the team?

I usually get so depressed by the poor displays (and the debt I get) that I'll switch to Faulty and come on to show these youngsters how it's done. Am I the only one that feels sad that people no longer feel safe with a tank on the team?

As no one else has replied yet....

I only had it briefly and then respeced it out. Needs a bit of slotting to make it useful and I just never found a use for it myself. 8 second stun I seem to remember which wasn't enough time to do much and I could have already launched bother Nova AoE in that time. I know a lot of people love it though.

If you have a plan that involves stunning a group and can spare a few slots (couple of acc, end red and stun duration probably) then go for it.

Really depends on what people expect of them. Those that think they are getting an uber killing machine are sadly dissapointed and give up on them. Those that like the challenge and unique style of play stick with it.

Teamed with a WS today in the hollows. He spent most of the mish moaning about how "WS sux", "can't hit anything", "drain end too fast" "rubbish reward for getting to 50" etc.. He is never going to stick with it.

Of course, this experienced level 50 player also asked what level the first respec was at....

I've enjoyed mine.

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I think its fair to say that not everyone who builds a tank is going to know how best to taunt, manage aggro, etc. Like anything else its a learning process, you don't just 'know' how to Tank because you're building one.
My question really i guess, is how often do you talk to Tankers that you meet and tell them what tips you've picked up, and offer advice? I'm sure there are plenty of Tanks (and other ATs) that don't even know they are doing anything wrong, unless someone gives some advice.

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I'll offer advice to anyone that asks and occasionally point out certain things to people. Like a stone tank the other night that was worried about taking on some sappers. I just pointed out rooted had end drain protection and he could happily tank several sappers with it on and he was amazed.

Most of the time you can tell the people want to be scankers or are just so arrogant that they don't listen anyway. Granite tanks seem the worst - "I can easily tank +5 AVs" is something I hear a lot and they refuse to believe you when you say that not dying is not the same as holding aggro and keeping the team safe....

An AoE specialist is an interesting idea and I'd be interested to know how it works out for you. Not criticising but you know the human AoE attacks are both pretty weak right? I've usually fired off the nova AoE and then dropped to human and used Solar Flare to finish off anything else. Something else I've never tried is slotting the nova attacks with 2 recharge enh (currently only have one in each) and running hasten at the same time. By my reckoning, scatter is recharged in about 5 seconds and detonation in 7 meaning you should be able to fire one then the other pretty much without pause. Bit end draining but fun!

Just maybe something for you to think about and try on the test server.

Just not as good as it was when you could 6 slot them...
Roll on buffable photons.

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Unless you try to go without stamina and I really don't know if you would get away with it, maybe on a warshade but def not on a peacebringer

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I dropped stamina on my PB and don't really miss it.

I use it situationally. Soloing a big boss, taking on an AV, when the team suddenly aggros two groups and things start to go a bit wrong etc... I much prefer having it ready for when I do need it rather than get in trouble and find it's not recharged because I decided to use it in the easy fight just before.

You don't get rooted when you attack and you also seem able to pass through friend and foe alike so you can line up IS, run right through a mob and be well past him before the attack finishes hitting. Pop hasten and conserve energy (tho you probably don't need that with the built in end reduction) and you can rampage through pretty much anything but Psi mobs.

Combat flight will make Solar Flare useless. Although I feel guilty half the time I use that attack for making the scrappers have to go running off after the mob.

I actually prefer Photon Seekers to Dawn Strike. It's not up as often, drains your end and is just not quite powerfull enough to kill everything, leaving you with lots of aggro.

Agree about the AoE in Nova form. Also as three slotting Nova with to-hit buffs is still less than one acc SO in the attacks themselves (from what I remember), you may be better off taking those two slots out of nova and slotting the AoEs with one acc each. Dawn strike also has built in acc and as you are likely to be using buildup before hitting it anyway, could save yourself an acc slot there?

Gratz, well deserved. Been nice teaming with you the last couple of days.

If you want some figures, then take a look at this link on the US forums. I'm not sure if he means half of a slotted or unslotted stamina. Possibly better off using those three slots in the dwarf powers themsleves to reduce the end usage there instead?

Have a look at the guides index in Player Guides. Few good threads of advice for stone tanks there and a good place to start (Khaine's guide is very good - lots of figures). Then if you have any specific questions you can come ask our sagely advice.

Added the channel last night. Was pretty quiet though. Hopefully more people will start using it.

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Saying that is like saying you can stand there and take hits of mother mayhem all day, now i know stone tanks with granite are more resistant than all the others and minerals offers psi resistance but i think a somewhat unbalanced team of inexperienced people wont save you.

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Very true and sorry, I wasn't trying to say I wouldn't have problems with a naff team. MM has killed me more than a few times in the past.

On those sorts of missions tho you can usually tell after the first couple of groups if the AV is going to be doable or not. The give away is usually when several of the team have died multiple times already regardless of how hard you've tried to protect them.

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With team coordination, positioning and buffing i dont think there is any AV you cant do upto +2 AV for defender and tanker (+2 AV said to be safe in what i am saying). I have had a lvl 51 babbage tanked by a lvl 49 firetanker (no psi def or res and no extra hp boost) and had no deaths in the team. Most people i find though dont give a monkeys about strategy or if they die and do something i class as pointlessly stupid and mess things up. I myself as an invuln have done +2 psionic AVs many times and they only get me once only if i am on not so cooperative teams (but mostly they dont) or i didnt quite make the range i needed or it was way back when i lacked experience to even check the mob. If i get a "wow that is great tanking" its not my tanking its more to the fact i have a great team. Most important thing for a tanker to know is how to offer people safe positions to attack from, whether people use them though or allow you to acquire good herdpoints is another matter.

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As I spend most of my time in PUGs I try never to rely on the team as you never know what the team makeup will be or if they are any good. I knows my limits and any contribution from the team just means I can tank even more than that. That way I know I can happily tank a +3 Mother Mayhem mission if I get an invite, regardless of the team I'm with.

Welcome to the world of being a big rock MrJayton.

Wrote that originally just after ED so hadn't done much testing. Since had some time to try certain AV's without Granite and there are a few which are totally possible even at +2 or more. Really depends on the AV though. Those that use S/L dmg (and to some extent fire) are about the only ones you should try and even then some hit you far too hard for you to be able to take the punishment for too long without insps or lots of team buffing.

Out of curiousity I just went on and tried a lvl 51 Dreck (solo). He had me in the red in under 20 seconds - combination of heavy S/L (900 even with 40% dmg resist) and energy (about 1100 a shot).

Usually it's not worth the risk for me unless it's someone like Diabolique who hits like a girl and where I need stone cages recharging quickly to keep her still!

No, they aren't all needed. Some tanks don't much like the downsides of Granite armour and prefer to tank using all the others instead tho. I'm one and don't often use GA at all.

As stone tanks get the choice of going perma-granite or instead using all the other armours, this is not so much the ultimate guide rather it's one of the possible types of stone tank you could have.

A few points...

Rock armour is defence rather than resistance. Very few stone tanks ever drop it even after granite.

Earths Embrace is not just a heal, it boosts your maximum HP too.

Stone tanks are regeners, rooted gives a 200% boost to regen (when slotted).

Minerals won't stack with Granite.

Finally Fault is probably the best power you can get to help tanking. AoE, fast recharge, stuns and knocks down. I love it

Oh, tp should be the first choice of most stone tanks as a travel power.