EvilGeko

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I would tend to agree, but what many people seem to forget is Dominators have a dual-use primary (control and damage). It'll take a bit of adjusting to get used to, but Dominators will have a damaging power or two in their primary that they can use to fill in the gaps in the early level attack chain (especially if they are Mind).


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This just can't be said enough. The primary attacks fill in the gaps. The ST immobilize most sets have does decent damage and is a great filler attack. In early levels, slotting the ST hold works well too.

Mind and Grav, have ST ranged attacks which are primarily damage powers.

Using those as part of your chain eliminates most gaps that people are seeing while giving you time to build up your secondary heavy hitters for higher levels when you're going to be tearing mobs apart.

These changes are about 90% win IMO, and that's never a bad place to be. I won't say that there won't be a period of adjustment. Of course there will. But the adjustment is because Doms no longer rely on a crutch inherent and a few overpowered secondary powers.

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If you are cool with standing around doing nothing all the power too you. From my experience, most players aside for /empaths aren't (especially on an "assault" designed AT).

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It's true, people will do that for sure. It's one reason I agreed in the main feedback thread with the assessment that they might want to review the tier 1 and 2 attacks and make them faster recharging with less damage and endurance cost. I think something between what they were and are now would be a better idea, not because it will actually perform better (except for overkills), but because it will "feel" better subjectively to people playing lowbie Doms. That's a key time when people form opinions of whether they think they'll enjoy playing something.

I'm a little torn, though, because (especially for the attacks with fast activations) big hitter attacks are what you want to build attack chains with. Having some of these attacks like this is a boon to the high-performance build.

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I don't agree with this because the primary attacks fill in the chain. I've had no problems either with a brand new, exemplared or high level dom in having something to do.

As you stated in your last paragraph, having some big hitters with fast activation times is exactly what Doms need at the high levels.

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Under high recharge I have absolutely no doubt that /fire will be amazing, though it was already pretty fantastic on live under those conditions as well. I'm just not keen (right now) on standing around, or the prospect that I need a lot of rech on my dom to make it play smoothly.

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I'm starting realize, this revamp may actually make permadom more needed accross the board then it currently is. Going perma solves two big issues now, endurance troubles and the new increased recharge times.

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So far, I've had no problems either building an attack chain or managing endurance. Both are better than live with the enhanced damage.

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Same issue here.

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Trying Zombie's fix.

No.

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I'd like it of more content was phased out, since that would mean oroborous could very literally be travelling to the past. We have a great tool in Oroborous - it's a shame it's squandered right now.

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Agreed. Ouroboros allows the devs to have that holy grail of MMOs, a dynamic world. They could literally have their cake and eat it too.

Only downside is that if you phase too much out, eventually people park themselves in Ouro because all the content is there.

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Not even remotely. A lot did hate it, many more are indifferent, and a good number actually are in favor of it.

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This.

Generally (though not always), the people who dislike a change in an MMO are people who got used to it the old way. As new people come along and don't have the chance to experience the old way, the overall feeling usually moves towards the new setup. Ask some people with less than 6 months vet how they feel about PVP to get an idea. If they've tried it, they may just surprise you and say they liked it.

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This.

I started in May of 05, less than 6 months before ED hit, and when it was announced, I rejoiced because it let me get rid of the power I needed to take to be considered a "good player" (hint: Hasten) and let me pick up powers that actually made sense for my concept!

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You could have done that before. You chose not to. Nothing ED did changes that fact.

Had the game launched with ED, I don't think it would have been bad, but doing such a drastic nerf after the fact still rubs me the wrong way. I'd probably be less annoyed, but folks saying that they were "forced" to play a certain way is BS. IF they chose to play for effectiveness then good, I did too, but I wish people would stop acting like they were forced.

QR

Interesting. Well, I would have tested anyway, so cool. I guess I'll just log on a bit more I CAN be bribed to test!

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That's not a strawman. A strawman is where I argue against something not related to the subject. [u]You are the one who said the in SOME CASES KB is as good as a hold.[u] Again, SOME CASES are the key words here.

What those two questions make obvious, is that a KB is in SOME CASES as good as a stun. But a Stun IN ALL CASES is as good as KB.


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You're either confused or dishonest. I NEVER said that. What I said was...

EvilGeko wrote:
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Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun. [u]It's not as good as a hold[u], but Ice and Electric are missing one or more tricks the other blaster sets get. (in Ice's case a targeted AoE, in Elec a strong ST blast.)


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I'm not going to bother to respond to the rest because you're just making stuff up as you go along.

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Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun.


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I knew that is what you would say .... So now let me ask you two more questions ....

1) for all situations, the effectiveness of Holds can be substitued for the effectiveness of knockbacks (true/false)

2) for all situations, the effectiveness of knockbacks can be substitued for the effectiveness of holds (true/false)


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This is a textbook strawman. I said in my post that holds are superior to KBs in most cases. Now you're asking me to respond to something I didn't say. What I said, and you can read it because you quoted it, is that IN SOME CASES, a KB is as good as a STUN.


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The reason I bring this up, is if Power Push were a hold or a stun, it would be enough to justify that it's a tier 7, and force bolt is a tier 3. Knockback IMO is a situational (yet fun) secondary effect to play with. Stuns and holds are an all the time power.

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Two things:

Tier is irrelevant. For example, Quick Recovery is a Tier 3 power for Regen, but a Tier 6 power for Willpower. Should it be better for Willpower? Hell no. It's that way because in the context of the whole set, Castle wanted QR later for Willpower. Force Bolt is a Tier 1 power for Masterminds. Why? Because Castle wanted for Masterminds to get Personal Force Field later, so he rearranged the powers.

Tier just isn't important in this argument. Energy gets it's meat and potatoes powers earlier, which is a good thing.

Second. A power ST KB like Power Push provides better protection against most Bosses than a stun ever would. It is an all the time power. It's not a "fun" power. I'm no fan of AoE KB, but ST KB is extremely useful to a character.

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The point of this is that, if you're in a situation that actually calls for the type of build you're running with, you're going to be keeping Dull Pain permanent and still be using the heal optimally. +HP is largely pointless because, if you're actually using Dull Pain rather than "tactically" letting it sit around and only using it once every 5 minutes when you actually need the heal, the time period that the +hp from set bonuses isn't completely negated by the hp cap is so small as to be pointless in comparison to when it is up. You're better off aiming for other set bonuses completely. It would be like building a character with capped resistance and then giving him a slew of +res bonuses because, on occasion, he faces enemies with -res. For a vast majority of the time, it's pointless and only has a marginal effect when it is active. You'd be better off going with a different set bonus that is active at all times.

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I disagree. I've found in my experience that having more health outside of Dull Pain allows me some wiggle room without major sacrifice. But the joy of inventions is we can play differently. I've found much success playing my way. I assume you have with yours.

EDIT: Just logged in to see what could be causing the disconnect. I recall now. BS/Regen which is what my Regen is, is soft-capped easily because of Parry to melee/lethal. Thus making it much less necessary for me to depend on set bonuses for most of the things I do.

So I'm not going to disagree with your assessment, but I'll say that it's not really relevant to my character's playstyle.

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I don't understand why people don't understand...
Why should there be two powers that do the same thing, but the lower level one is better than the upper level one?
Basically is it a free slot to ignore and get something useful.
But this should not be like this.
I can see what the OP is talking about, the tier 7 is lacking because it is almost the same as the Tier 3.
Then maybe I don't understand...

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What Tier a power sits in, is mostly irrelevant. You have to look at the whole set and at least argue fairly. It's a BENEFIT that Power Push comes so late because it allows Energy to have it's strong ST blast at level 6. Ice and Fire don't get theirs until level 18.

If you think Power Push needs a buff, then you need to show why Power Push on its own terms is unfair such that it makes Energy weaker than it's fellows. I successfully argued for a change to MoG because the power was actually detrimental to use. But Power Push isn't in that category. It's a good power that does what it says it does.

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Sonic has Screech which is minor damage +disorient
Archery has Stunning Shot which is minor damage +disorient
Psi has Scramble Thoughts which is minor damage +disorient
AR has Beanbag which is minor damage +disorient (see the pattern)
Elec has Tesla Cage which is minor damage +hold


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Do you believe that Knockback is as good as a hold or a stun?

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Well at least you're arguing from the proper perspective. To answer your question. Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun. It's not as good as a hold, but Ice and Electric are missing one or more tricks the other blaster sets get. (in Ice's case a targeted AoE, in Elec a strong ST blast.)

Energy has every standard feature of a Blast set: three escalating ST blasts, a snipe, a cone, AIM, a targeted AoE and finally a control. It's a very good set. It does not need a buff IMO.

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i dunno, i dont see the actual levelheaded riled, except maybe evilgecko. i mean bill, lets be honest, you had said before i14 that you were planning on leaving anyhow, so while its sad you are going, you didnt sudenly decide to take a break here, you were planning on taking a break and then i14 had yous tay longer, at elast thats what i got from your comments during i14 beta. so olantern, sam is right, fear when the sane people are worried, but do a reasonable tally of the sane people actually upset.

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To be honest, I'm not riled up. I'm super excited about Going Rogue and generally think MA is a fun addition. But I'm very, very disappointed in the devs' actions in response to the MEOW farm. Chalk it up to ten years as a civil defense attorney.

I think their actions here don't speak well for them.

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Power push should be compared to something like tesla cage if a specific example of a defensive ability from a blast set is needed. You would then need to argue that electric blast outperforms energy blast, and show that electric blast gains the upper hand due to some advantage tesla cage has over power push.

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Exactly. If we look at Blast sets, many have a control power built in and very few have substantial damage attached:

Ice has Freeze Ray and Bitter Freeze Ray. Castle has stated that BFR is in place of Ice's snipe so the proper comparator is Freeze Ray which does minimal damage +hold.

Sonic has Screech which is minor damage +disorient
Archery has Stunning Shot which is minor damage +disorient
Psi has Scramble Thoughts which is minor damage +disorient
AR has Beanbag which is minor damage +disorient (see the pattern)
Elec has Tesla Cage which is minor damage +hold
Fire kills fast!

So the key here is that when comparing power push to its compartors in blast sets we see that the pattern is a ST control power with minimal damage. Energy is right in line with that pattern. Comparing it to Force Bolt although each power is nearly identical compares the wrong class of powers to each other.

No buff is needed here.

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Energy Drain is a +heal/+end with a substantial end drain to the mobs and a 60 second recharge


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I'm assuming you used Mids to get your info. I haven't tried the power in game since I'm talking about FB and PP, but according to Paragon Wiki Energy Drain is not a heal, it is an end buff only. I'm not sure if the recharge that is listed in mids is correct either, but paragon wiki does list the recharge as long, and the recharge for dark comsumption as very long, so I would assume the recharge displayed in mids is correct.

Mids also says you can slot heal enhancements in the power. Paragon Wiki states otherwise.


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I'm using have a level 50 Energy Blaster, EA Brute, and DM Brute. I know my data is correct. Energy Drain and Dark Consumption are really only similar in that they restore endurance to the character.

Likewise Force Bolt and Power Push are in sets that have different goals and should not necessarily be compared together as people have done.

Power Push doesn't need a buff. Energy already has a full attack chain and AoE options.

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This is a lot like how, say, Dark Melee -> Dark Consumption is largely an inferior endurance drain power than, say, Energy Aura -> Energy Drain. It's a drain power in a damage powerset, as opposed to Energy Drain, which is a drain power in a defence set.


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Those two powers are in different sets and they do the exact same thing. One damages the Mobs endurance, the other damages the Mobs HP, and they are both teir 7 powers. They are very comparable, and should be.

Force Bolt and Power Push should be similar to how those powers are.

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Actually, they are not comparable at all.

Energy Drain is a +heal/+end with a substantial end drain to the mobs and a 60 second recharge.

Dark Consumption does a minimal amount of damage, only give +end, and has a 180 second recharge.

Sam's point is well taken.

Energy's Power Push is a control power in a Blast set. It's not intended to be as powerful as force bolt, because force bolt is intended to supplement a FF characters protective suite. The better argument would revolve around what Energy lacks to justify this buff.

I could see if we were comparing say Consume to Energy Drain where the argument for comparability would be much stronger.

Good idea.

/signed.

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The point to this post? Disappointment may not always be expressed as "arrghh, doom, i hate this game, the devs are evil and monstrous fools, ARAHRGAHRGAH."

Sometimes, disappointment is a very quiet, "meh."

Looking forward to I-16! Because I like the devs and love the game.

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QFE, QFT.

In five years, I've never been able to get reflexive dev defenders to understand this.

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The only reasons to aim for +hp on a */regen are that you're not stacking enough +recharge to get perma-DP or are short slotting DP for less +heal.

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Or you use DP tactically as a heal + buff and not just as a buff.

Recharge Reduction is your lord and master, then I tend to equally value +defense and +health.

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The old bank robbery missions are a very good example of what could be done better, though they are so rare. Rather than just "go into instance, beat stuff up, go out of instance" that most Paper missions smack of, having a variety of both settings and setups could have helped make them that much less irritating.


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When I can remember, I check the scanner/newspaper just to see if you get one of the rare rob/foil bank robbery missions.

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My low-forties Scrapper: Hunt 100 Crey mission. Seriously, ONE HUNDRED? What the.... I don't think that hunt missions should ever be more than 25.

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At least on the Redside most Hunt missions will count the enemies that you fight inside door missions as long as they didn't specify a zone to fight them in. I regularly knock out two missions at once that way.

Blueside? Nope, pretty much never works. Really annoyed the last hero that I leveled to 50.

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It almost always works for me unless they specify a zone. Can you give an example of a place where this doesn't work? *Shrug*

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If you want to complain about missions, how about the whole thign where you have all kinds of busy work before you actually get to do any of the real content?

That whole "do five newspaper missions, then rob a bank before we give you a contact to do any of the actual content" drives me insane. It's a stupid busy-work timesink, I hate it. It's one of the primary reasons I don't play red-side.

Lemme play the game, stop putting road-blocks up.

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Mega-QFT!

And what [not nice word] had the bright idea to have unlockable contacts in a game with a dearth of content in the first place?

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I absolutely HATE the contact system blueside. I play mainly blueside because the archetypes and atmosphere redside doesn't interest me much, but the contact system blueside is just HORRIBLE. I hate it from a player's perspective and I hate it from a design perspective. Why on earth are all the contacts blueside so freakin' afraid to actually go visit the zones they're so concerned about!?.

Every single original contact seems to concentrate their missions on any zone except the one they're in. I find that just unbelievable. It's like having a community representative for Philadelphia based in New York City.

When you work your way through a zone and finally level up enough to graduate to the next one, you don't want to be sent back to where you just came from. Not only that, but just from a realism perspective, it fails horribly. I get sent on missions to AP to defeat Sky Raiders or such, and they're not even in that zone!

If there's to BIG QoL features I'd like to see implemented that are heavy enough to warrant their own issue, it would be a revamp of the contact system heroside, and also to finally have a respec system. Our current respec system is as difficult as it could possibly be without intentionally being coded for extra difficulty.

Sorry, I started ranting. It must be a sore spot with me.

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Here's the problem I've always had with this. It's meta thinking.

Paragon City is Paragon City. The zones are just neighborhoods of a larger whole. People are thinking of them as separate entities where they really are part of a larger whole. It would be silly in the extreme to my mind to be stuck in one zone for every mission, unless it made sense with the story like Faultline or Croatoa.

If a contact sends you to Atlas Park that's because they usually want to send you to City Hall. I see no problem with having folks of all levels all over the game. I absolutely hate that villain side traps you for the most part in one zone. Sure it's a pain in the butt sometimes to have to travel across the game, but really in this game you can get anywhere inside about 2 minutes.