FF/NRG Defender - Force Bolt vs Power Push

Simple suggestion, to make power push a little more effective.

Force Bolt is a tier 3 power, and does minor damage, and a high knockback.

Power Push is a tier 7 power, does minor damage, and a high knockback, but is actually a lower knockback value than forcebolt.

Unfortunatly, paragonwiki doesn't list the exact values of the KB values, but Mid's puts Power Push KB value just under Force Bolt (currently not at home, but can list the values later).

I think Power Push is underpowered for a tier 7 power, and should either add more damage to the power to at least moderate; maybe even high, or double the KB potential.

/signed

Power Push is essentially a control power in a Blast powerset, whereas Force Bolt is a control power in a support powerset. The powers themselves don't need to be comparable on a per-power basis, because this ignores the context within which they exist in-game. This is a lot like how, say, Dark Melee -> Dark Consumption is largely an inferior endurance drain power than, say, Energy Aura -> Energy Drain. It's a drain power in a damage powerset, as opposed to Energy Drain, which is a drain power in a defence set.

That said, I'm not specifically against upgrading Power Push.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

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This is a lot like how, say, Dark Melee -> Dark Consumption is largely an inferior endurance drain power than, say, Energy Aura -> Energy Drain. It's a drain power in a damage powerset, as opposed to Energy Drain, which is a drain power in a defence set.


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Those two powers are in different sets and they do the exact same thing. One damages the Mobs endurance, the other damages the Mobs HP, and they are both teir 7 powers. They are very comparable, and should be.

Force Bolt and Power Push should be similar to how those powers are.

*Thinks about making a new post about fixing power push*

*realizes he's posted about this in the past, does a search option and finds old post*

*posts on the old thread instead of creating a new one*

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*Thinks about making a new post about fixing power push*

*realizes he's posted about this in the past, does a search option and finds old post*

*posts on the old thread instead of creating a new one*



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Good job!

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*Thinks about making a new post about fixing power push*

*realizes he's posted about this in the past, does a search option and finds old post*

*posts on the old thread instead of creating a new one*



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Good job!

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Thanks!

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This is a lot like how, say, Dark Melee -> Dark Consumption is largely an inferior endurance drain power than, say, Energy Aura -> Energy Drain. It's a drain power in a damage powerset, as opposed to Energy Drain, which is a drain power in a defence set.


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Those two powers are in different sets and they do the exact same thing. One damages the Mobs endurance, the other damages the Mobs HP, and they are both teir 7 powers. They are very comparable, and should be.

Force Bolt and Power Push should be similar to how those powers are.

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Actually, they are not comparable at all.

Energy Drain is a +heal/+end with a substantial end drain to the mobs and a 60 second recharge.

Dark Consumption does a minimal amount of damage, only give +end, and has a 180 second recharge.

Sam's point is well taken.

Energy's Power Push is a control power in a Blast set. It's not intended to be as powerful as force bolt, because force bolt is intended to supplement a FF characters protective suite. The better argument would revolve around what Energy lacks to justify this buff.

I could see if we were comparing say Consume to Energy Drain where the argument for comparability would be much stronger.

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Energy Drain is a +heal/+end with a substantial end drain to the mobs and a 60 second recharge


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I'm assuming you used Mids to get your info. I haven't tried the power in game since I'm talking about FB and PP, but according to Paragon Wiki Energy Drain is not a heal, it is an end buff only. I'm not sure if the recharge that is listed in mids is correct either, but paragon wiki does list the recharge as long, and the recharge for dark comsumption as very long, so I would assume the recharge displayed in mids is correct.

Mids also says you can slot heal enhancements in the power. Paragon Wiki states otherwise.

As to the function of the power, it attacks the targets endurance, and has a long recharge (Does no damage hench the shorter recharge). Against PvE creatures, endurance isn't that important to them anyways, so a recharge of long is reasonable.

Dark Consumption is also a +endurance power for the wielder, but instead of taking that endurance from the targets endurance, it takes it from their HP and does moderate damage, so is more useful as it's an attack, therfore the recharge is very long.

I stand by saying that these two powers are comparable, and would still use this example as why power push and force bolt should be adjusted to better reflect the tier that they lie in.

Give power push more damage, and it would be more in line with this example.

Forcebolt is a defense. I don't see any need to adjust it at all, as I primarily use it to defend my FF defender, whose other defenses are better suited to covering my team. EVERY FF defender faces this same challenge, and the tool is provided to deal with it. The energy blast set as a whole already provides reasonably good defense in addition to its primary purpose of dealing damage.

Power push should be compared to something like tesla cage if a specific example of a defensive ability from a blast set is needed. You would then need to argue that electric blast outperforms energy blast, and show that electric blast gains the upper hand due to some advantage tesla cage has over power push.

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Energy Drain is a +heal/+end with a substantial end drain to the mobs and a 60 second recharge


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I'm assuming you used Mids to get your info. I haven't tried the power in game since I'm talking about FB and PP, but according to Paragon Wiki Energy Drain is not a heal, it is an end buff only. I'm not sure if the recharge that is listed in mids is correct either, but paragon wiki does list the recharge as long, and the recharge for dark comsumption as very long, so I would assume the recharge displayed in mids is correct.

Mids also says you can slot heal enhancements in the power. Paragon Wiki states otherwise.


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I'm using have a level 50 Energy Blaster, EA Brute, and DM Brute. I know my data is correct. Energy Drain and Dark Consumption are really only similar in that they restore endurance to the character.

Likewise Force Bolt and Power Push are in sets that have different goals and should not necessarily be compared together as people have done.

Power Push doesn't need a buff. Energy already has a full attack chain and AoE options.

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Power push should be compared to something like tesla cage if a specific example of a defensive ability from a blast set is needed. You would then need to argue that electric blast outperforms energy blast, and show that electric blast gains the upper hand due to some advantage tesla cage has over power push.

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Exactly. If we look at Blast sets, many have a control power built in and very few have substantial damage attached:

Ice has Freeze Ray and Bitter Freeze Ray. Castle has stated that BFR is in place of Ice's snipe so the proper comparator is Freeze Ray which does minimal damage +hold.

Sonic has Screech which is minor damage +disorient
Archery has Stunning Shot which is minor damage +disorient
Psi has Scramble Thoughts which is minor damage +disorient
AR has Beanbag which is minor damage +disorient (see the pattern)
Elec has Tesla Cage which is minor damage +hold
Fire kills fast!

So the key here is that when comparing power push to its compartors in blast sets we see that the pattern is a ST control power with minimal damage. Energy is right in line with that pattern. Comparing it to Force Bolt although each power is nearly identical compares the wrong class of powers to each other.

No buff is needed here.

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Energy Drain is a +heal/+end with a substantial end drain to the mobs and a 60 second recharge


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I'm assuming you used Mids to get your info. I haven't tried the power in game since I'm talking about FB and PP, but according to Paragon Wiki Energy Drain is not a heal, it is an end buff only. I'm not sure if the recharge that is listed in mids is correct either, but paragon wiki does list the recharge as long, and the recharge for dark comsumption as very long, so I would assume the recharge displayed in mids is correct.

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I suggest you check something a bit more accurate than Paragonwiki. Probably some other, more informative online resource such as City of Data, which actually has all of the numbers as the game sees them. If you check Energy Drain you'll see that it's got a heal component to it. Thanks for trying though. You may want to actually get your information right next time.

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I suggest you check something a bit more accurate than Paragonwiki.


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I find paragon wiki accurate. I'm not in front of my home computer atm, but I'll check the description in game when I get home.

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You may want to actually get your information right next time


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Again, I'm talking about force bolt, and power push. Paragon Wiki may want to update their information then. Even if one offers a heal, the one that does deals no damage, and they are still comparable. I could care less about two powers that are balanced properly and have no issues; Energy Drain and Dark Consumption are.

Here are a few more powers that are nicely balanced between primary and seconday sets such as Energy Drain and Dark Consumption:

Brute:
Electrical Melee: Lightning Clap -> Dark Armor: Oppressive Gloom
Lightning Clap is tier 8, deals damage, and has a long recharge
Opressive Gloom is tier 8, a stun toggle, but deals damage to the user.
These are balanced.

Blaster:
Archery: Stunning Shot -> Energy Manipulation: Stun
Stunning Shot is a ranged, so it's tier 8, Stun is melee and forces a blaster in close, so it's tier 6. Both do the same thing, and it's balanced.

Many blaster primaries: Aim -> Devices: Targeting Drone
Aim is the same across most blaster primaries, either tier 4, 5, or 6 and does the same in each set. 37.5% to hit base and 62.5% damage bonus.
Targetting Drone is tier 4, and inceases To hit by 13.875%. It also increases perception and resistance to debuff and it's a toggle.
I have a fire/dev blaster, and the damage increase on Aim is a huge bonus, and because Targetting Drone offers less ACC and no damage buff and is a toggle, I feel it's balanced.

Controller
Earth: Quicksand -> Trick Arrow: Glue Arrow

These do the same thing, quicksand is tier 3 and glue arrow is tier 4. These, IMO, should be tweeked, but they are no where near how bad force bolt and power push are. I do understand the reason Quicksand is tier 4 (hold, immob, aoe immob are first three in the majority of hold sets), but I would cut 10-20 seconds from glue arrow's recharge, or swap glue arrow to tier 4 and make ice arrow tier 3.
Overall, they are only seperated by 1 tier so this example is close to balanced IMO.

Scrappers:
Dark Melee: Dark Consumption -> Fiery Aura: Consume
Dark Consumption is tier 7 and consume is tier 6. The recharge is the same, and consume deals damage. Again, These powers do the same thing, and they are only seperated by 1 tier. IMO, this is close to balanced.

Defender:
Storm Summoning: Thunder Clap -> Dark Blast: Dark Pit
Thunder clap is tier 7, and Dark Pit is tier 4, and both powers cause stun. Dark Pit has a recharge of 60 seconds, and stuns for 11.92 seconds, and Thunder clap has a recharge of 45 seconds and stuns for 14.9 seconds. Obviously, Thunder clap is the better of the two because of the shorter recharge, and longer stun duration, so it's balanced.

I could go on and on, but lets get to the point ....

Force Field: Force Bolt -> Energy Blast: Power Push
Force Bolt is tier 3, 18.694 knockback, and causes 7.23 damage with a recharge of 4 seconds.
Power Push is tier 7, 16.617 Knockback, and causes 7.23 damage with a recharge of 8 seconds.

If power push were in tier 4, or 5 and were only a 1 or 2 tier spread between the two I could probably let it slide, but it's a 4 tier spread! And Force Bolt is STILL better than Power Push. There is no reason that there should be a 4 tier spread between two powers that do exactly the same thing.

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Sonic has Screech which is minor damage +disorient
Archery has Stunning Shot which is minor damage +disorient
Psi has Scramble Thoughts which is minor damage +disorient
AR has Beanbag which is minor damage +disorient (see the pattern)
Elec has Tesla Cage which is minor damage +hold


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Do you believe that Knockback is as good as a hold or a stun?

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Sonic has Screech which is minor damage +disorient
Archery has Stunning Shot which is minor damage +disorient
Psi has Scramble Thoughts which is minor damage +disorient
AR has Beanbag which is minor damage +disorient (see the pattern)
Elec has Tesla Cage which is minor damage +hold


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Do you believe that Knockback is as good as a hold or a stun?

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Well at least you're arguing from the proper perspective. To answer your question. Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun. It's not as good as a hold, but Ice and Electric are missing one or more tricks the other blaster sets get. (in Ice's case a targeted AoE, in Elec a strong ST blast.)

Energy has every standard feature of a Blast set: three escalating ST blasts, a snipe, a cone, AIM, a targeted AoE and finally a control. It's a very good set. It does not need a buff IMO.

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Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun.


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I knew that is what you would say .... So now let me ask you two more questions ....

1) for all situations, the effectiveness of Holds can be substitued for the effectiveness of knockbacks (true/false)

2) for all situations, the effectiveness of knockbacks can be substitued for the effectiveness of holds (true/false)

The reason I bring this up, is if Power Push were a hold or a stun, it would be enough to justify that it's a tier 7, and force bolt is a tier 3. Knockback IMO is a situational (yet fun) secondary effect to play with. Stuns and holds are an all the time power.

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1) for all situations, the effectiveness of Holds can be substitued for the effectiveness of knockbacks (true/false)

2) for all situations, the effectiveness of knockbacks can be substitued for the effectiveness of holds (true/false)

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I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to get across here. Are you trying to say that Holds are better than knockback, especially since you use "all situations" both times? A Knockback has a number of situations that a hold is inferior for. Knockbacks, because they're higher magnitude than any other effect, affect more targets than any other status effect with a single application. Blasters can't hold a boss in a single go, but they're more than capable of knocking one back in a single go. Knockbacks are also more effective when in the right hands for enemy placement. You can only hold someone in a specific place with a Hold. With a KB, you can put them wherever you want (if you're intelligent about it).

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The reason I bring this up, is if Power Push were a hold or a stun, it would be enough to justify that it's a tier 7, and force bolt is a tier 3. Knockback IMO is a situational (yet fun) secondary effect to play with. Stuns and holds are an all the time power.

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First off, what tier a power is has nothing to do with the potency of the power. All it does is affect when you get it. The same goes for whether a set is specified as being the primary or secondary. Castle as told us more than once that tier has nothing to do with potency.

Secondly, stuns and holds are only slightly less situational than knockbacks, but that's because they're completely different effects. You can't compare them side to side.

Lastly, if you're talking about Power Push being weak, I invite you to actually consider all of the other attributes of the powers you're comparing.

Power Push recharges in 8 seconds. That's the fastest of the ranged "control" powers. Freeze ray and Tesla Cage are both 10 seconds. Stunning Shot, Beanbag, Screech, and Scramble Thoughts are all on 20 seconds timers.

Power Push has a .268 damage scalar. Stunning Shot is .25. Beanbag is .2. Tesla Cage is .15. Freeze Ray is .1. Scramble Thoughts is .25. Screech is .2.

Power push has a base accuracy of 1.4. Stunning Shot is 1.155. Beanbag is 1.05. Tesla Cage, Freeze Ray, Scramble Thoughts, and Screech are all 1.

Power Push activates in 1.32 seconds (Arcanatime). Stunning Shot (1.98), Tesla Cage (2.376), Scramble Thoughts (3.168), and Screech (1.716) have higher (sometime much higher) activation times. Beanbag (1.056) and Freeze Ray (1.188) are the only 2 that beat Power Push, but they pay for that by having worse damage.

Power Push has a range of 70'. Scramble Thoughts is the only power with better at 80', but that's part of Psychic Blast's schtick. All of the other are stuck with a range of 60'.

So... Power Push is better than pretty much any other control power, except that it uses a ridiculously huge amount of +KB rather than a "traditional" mez effect. I'd honestly say that's a reasonable trade, but you wouldn't. You don't really see anything except for the KB v. hold/stun issue.

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Secondly, stuns and holds are only slightly less situational than knockbacks, but that's because they're completely different effects. You can't compare them side to side.


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Yes you can compare them, because KB falls into the mez catagory. Because KB is more of a situational power, it makes it worse than stun and hold. However, I'm not saying they should remove the KB from the power, but add more damage to it.

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Power Push recharges in 8 seconds. That's the fastest of the ranged "control" powers. Freeze ray and Tesla Cage are both 10 seconds. Stunning Shot, Beanbag, Screech, and Scramble Thoughts are all on 20 seconds timers.

Power Push has a .268 damage scalar. Stunning Shot is .25. Beanbag is .2. Tesla Cage is .15. Freeze Ray is .1. Scramble Thoughts is .25. Screech is .2.

Power push has a base accuracy of 1.4. Stunning Shot is 1.155. Beanbag is 1.05. Tesla Cage, Freeze Ray, Scramble Thoughts, and Screech are all 1.

Power Push activates in 1.32 seconds (Arcanatime). Stunning Shot (1.98), Tesla Cage (2.376), Scramble Thoughts (3.168), and Screech (1.716) have higher (sometime much higher) activation times. Beanbag (1.056) and Freeze Ray (1.188) are the only 2 that beat Power Push, but they pay for that by having worse damage.

Power Push has a range of 70'. Scramble Thoughts is the only power with better at 80', but that's part of Psychic Blast's schtick. All of the other are stuck with a range of 60'.


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While it is important to compare those in the same sets, it is also important to compare primaries and secondaries as I did in an above post. As I have stated, there are numerous of examples where primary and secondary powers are similar in sets, and they generally fall anywhere from 0 to 2 tiers away from each other.

A 4 tier spread IMO is to much for powers that do the same damage, and secondary effect between a primary and a secondary power pool. This is the only two powers when compared are that much of a spread in tiers between a primary and a secondary that I know of.

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Secondly, stuns and holds are only slightly less situational than knockbacks, but that's because they're completely different effects. You can't compare them side to side.


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Yes you can compare them, because KB falls into the mez catagory. Because KB is more of a situational power, it makes it worse than stun and hold. However, I'm not saying they should remove the KB from the power, but add more damage to it.

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And I'm saying that they already gave out a load of other benefits to the power already to counteract the decreased effectiveness of holds and stuns as compared to KB where mitigation is concerned.

The point I was trying to get across was that you can't directly say, with any conviction, that KB is this much worse than holds or stuns because they operate in completely different manners. Stuns, Holds, Sleeps, and the other "traditional" mez effects can be compared to each other with relative ease. Mag determines what you can affect and duration is duration. Mag for KB is both and a higher KB doesn't actually guarantee a similarly large increase in mitigation of the target.

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While it is important to compare those in the same sets, it is also important to compare primaries and secondaries as I did in an above post. As I have stated, there are numerous of examples where primary and secondary powers are similar in sets, and they generally fall anywhere from 0 to 2 tiers away from each other.

A 4 tier spread IMO is to much for powers that do the same damage, and secondary effect between a primary and a secondary power pool. This is the only two powers when compared are that much of a spread in tiers between a primary and a secondary that I know of.

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The problem with what you did there is you specifically brought up the weird and funky powers from those sets. How are you even comparing Lightning Clap and OG? They're not even remotely close to being related to one another for comparison's sake. You might as well compare Storm Kick to Fast Healing for all that comparison is appropriate.

Tier has nothing to do with a power's importance or potency. Knockout Blow from Super Strength is the same comparative value as a normal tier 9, but it's a tier 6. The same with Clobber. The only consideration for what tier a power gets to the player is how soon the player gets it. A tier 9 doesn't have to be the strongest power a player gets or even the most important. A tier 1 doesn't have to be (and often isn't) the weakest power. Just because you can't comprehend this basic concept doesn't mean that it's a viable train of logic.

Think of it this way: Storm Kick (tier 1) is loads better than Eagles Claw (tier 9) from a functional standpoint. It's got better DPA, better recharge, and better DPE. All Eagles Claw gets is a 4.768 second mag 3 stun. Does a ridiculously short stun balance out with everything that Storm Kick has, especially if you "factor in" that Stork Kick is a tier 1 power?

The only thing that tier affects is how early a player gets it. If a power set gets a control power earlier than others, it means nothing except that the set gets the control power earlier and whatever other powers later. It means nothing where game balance is concerned, and we have this from Castle.

Why haven't we compared repulsion bomb to ball lightning yet? If tier 7 Power Push should be better than tier 3 Force Bolt, it follows that tier 7 repulsion bomb's damage should be better than tier 3 ball lightning.

I don't understand why people don't understand...
Why should there be two powers that do the same thing, but the lower level one is better than the upper level one?
Basically is it a free slot to ignore and get something useful.
But this should not be like this.
I can see what the OP is talking about, the tier 7 is lacking because it is almost the same as the Tier 3.
Then maybe I don't understand...

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Why haven't we compared repulsion bomb to ball lightning yet? If tier 7 Power Push should be better than tier 3 Force Bolt, it follows that tier 7 repulsion bomb's damage should be better than tier 3 ball lightning.

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Ok, lets compare those two powers.

Repulsion Bomb:
Tier 8 power, 36.15 smashing damage, and KB of .67 (which equates to KD)
it's also a mag 2 stun for 12 seconds 40% of the time.

So it's moderate damage, KD, and stun.

Ball Lightning:
Tier 3 power, 10.84 energy damage with 26.04 more damage over the period of 4 seconds for a total of 36.88 damage.
It also drains .07 endurance

Repulsion Bomb is phenomenally better than Ball Lightning, hence the 4 tier seperation.

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Stuns, Holds, Sleeps, and the other "traditional" mez effects can be compared to each other with relative ease. Mag determines what you can affect and duration is duration. Mag for KB is both and a higher KB doesn't actually guarantee a similarly large increase in mitigation of the target.


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That statement right there makes KB worse. KB is only a 4 second guarentee that something (if it's not resistant to KB) will be mitigated. Most AV's are vitually immune to KB, but I know of no AV's that can't be held.

I can rate all the different mez attacks based on usefulness, and other than maybe sleep, KB is one of the worst. Again, I'm not advocating for them to change KB, just to spice up the damage more, or drop force bolt to around tier 5 and move the other powers up.

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How are you even comparing Lightning Clap and OG? They're not even remotely close to being related to one another for comparison's sake.


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The are both stun effects.

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Tier has nothing to do with a power's importance or potency.


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It has to do with when you get the powers, and obviously, you don't want to get the good powers first. That's why fire imps are last on a fire controller. Saying there isn't a relation between when you get a power and how strong a power is is crazy.

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I don't understand why people don't understand...
Why should there be two powers that do the same thing, but the lower level one is better than the upper level one?
Basically is it a free slot to ignore and get something useful.
But this should not be like this.
I can see what the OP is talking about, the tier 7 is lacking because it is almost the same as the Tier 3.
Then maybe I don't understand...

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What Tier a power sits in, is mostly irrelevant. You have to look at the whole set and at least argue fairly. It's a BENEFIT that Power Push comes so late because it allows Energy to have it's strong ST blast at level 6. Ice and Fire don't get theirs until level 18.

If you think Power Push needs a buff, then you need to show why Power Push on its own terms is unfair such that it makes Energy weaker than it's fellows. I successfully argued for a change to MoG because the power was actually detrimental to use. But Power Push isn't in that category. It's a good power that does what it says it does.