FF/NRG Defender - Force Bolt vs Power Push

I know it's pointless, but I have to comment:

[ QUOTE ]
Brute:
Electrical Melee: Lightning Clap -> Dark Armor: Oppressive Gloom
Lightning Clap is tier 8, deals damage, and has a long recharge
Opressive Gloom is tier 8, a stun toggle, but deals damage to the user.
These are balanced.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close. Lightning Clap may stun, but it also scatters, has below average native accuracy (.8 to Oppressive Gloom's 1.0), has a very limited duration with a rather high cost and doesn't really cover all that well. Oppressive Gloom is a toggle without a cost that does only token damage per tick in a set with a massive self heal, is constantly on, so you can keep minions perma-stunned, and hits at base 1.0 native accuracy. About the only thing it can't do is stun lieutenants, but at THAT cost and THAT power, if it could it would be a game-breaker.

Look at Hand Clap vs. Fault if you want more apparent discrepancy.

[ QUOTE ]
Blaster:
Archery: Stunning Shot -> Energy Manipulation: Stun
Stunning Shot is a ranged, so it's tier 8, Stun is melee and forces a blaster in close, so it's tier 6. Both do the same thing, and it's balanced.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite. Stunning shot has a native accuracy of 1.155 native accuracy, which is SIGNIFICANT in hitting more stuff, and also has SERIOUS range. Stun may have the same duration, but it it is melee ranged and nowhere near as safe. What's more, Stun is part of Energy Manipulations primary strength - Disorient effects. Together with Total Focus, you can stun a boss for a LONG time.

If you want a more accurate comparison, go with Tazer and Beanbag, and you're still going to be met with the same effect - the longer-ranged one is vastly more useful than the closer-ranged one in most situations.

[ QUOTE ]
Many blaster primaries: Aim -> Devices: Targeting Drone
Aim is the same across most blaster primaries, either tier 4, 5, or 6 and does the same in each set. 37.5% to hit base and 62.5% damage bonus.
Targetting Drone is tier 4, and inceases To hit by 13.875%. It also increases perception and resistance to debuff and it's a toggle.
I have a fire/dev blaster, and the damage increase on Aim is a huge bonus, and because Targetting Drone offers less ACC and no damage buff and is a toggle, I feel it's balanced.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the worst comparison I've ever seen. Targeting Drone is good for what it does, but it doesn't even BEGIN to compare to Aim. Aim has a 62.5% damage buff, which you can't get anywhere near with Targeting Drone even if you use Sniper Rifle. What's more, Targeting Drone's to-hit buff isn't all that much, even slotted. Certainly not enough to replace even an accuracy SO. Aim's buff even unenhanced can punch through just about everything short of Moment of Glory.

What's more, Targeting Drone replaces Build Up and damages the Aim + Build Up + death from above combo that most Blasters can level armies with. They're not balanced against each other. They're not even comparable in the slightest. That's like discussing the merits of Nova vs. Head Splitter.

[ QUOTE ]
Scrappers:
Dark Melee: Dark Consumption -> Fiery Aura: Consume
Dark Consumption is tier 7 and consume is tier 6. The recharge is the same, and consume deals damage. Again, These powers do the same thing, and they are only seperated by 1 tier. IMO, this is close to balanced.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are balanced against each other, and they SHOULDN'T be. Dark Consumption is a drain in a melee set, and as such suffers all the drawbacks associated with that - long recharge and to-hit checks. Consume is a drain from a defensive set, and as such it should be balanced after Energy Drain, not after Dark Consumption. That's evidence of bad design, actually.

[ QUOTE ]
If power push were in tier 4, or 5 and were only a 1 or 2 tier spread between the two I could probably let it slide, but it's a 4 tier spread! And Force Bolt is STILL better than Power Push. There is no reason that there should be a 4 tier spread between two powers that do exactly the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Powers are not based on a power-by-power basis. If they were, there would be no reason to allow Inferno to do more damage than Nova, or any reason why Sniper Blast activates faster than Ranged Shot. There would be no reason to have Golden Dragonfly do less damage than Headsplitter, or for Shield Charge to have a longer recharge than Foot Stomp. Forcefields is a support set, and as such it is favoured for buffs, debuffs and controls. Energy Blast is a blast set, and as such is simply not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun.


[/ QUOTE ]
I knew that is what you would say .... So now let me ask you two more questions ....

1) for all situations, the effectiveness of Holds can be substitued for the effectiveness of knockbacks (true/false)

2) for all situations, the effectiveness of knockbacks can be substitued for the effectiveness of holds (true/false)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a textbook strawman. I said in my post that holds are superior to KBs in most cases. Now you're asking me to respond to something I didn't say. What I said, and you can read it because you quoted it, is that IN SOME CASES, a KB is as good as a STUN.


[ QUOTE ]
The reason I bring this up, is if Power Push were a hold or a stun, it would be enough to justify that it's a tier 7, and force bolt is a tier 3. Knockback IMO is a situational (yet fun) secondary effect to play with. Stuns and holds are an all the time power.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things:

Tier is irrelevant. For example, Quick Recovery is a Tier 3 power for Regen, but a Tier 6 power for Willpower. Should it be better for Willpower? Hell no. It's that way because in the context of the whole set, Castle wanted QR later for Willpower. Force Bolt is a Tier 1 power for Masterminds. Why? Because Castle wanted for Masterminds to get Personal Force Field later, so he rearranged the powers.

Tier just isn't important in this argument. Energy gets it's meat and potatoes powers earlier, which is a good thing.

Second. A power ST KB like Power Push provides better protection against most Bosses than a stun ever would. It is an all the time power. It's not a "fun" power. I'm no fan of AoE KB, but ST KB is extremely useful to a character.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Blaster:
Archery: Stunning Shot -> Energy Manipulation: Stun
Stunning Shot is a ranged, so it's tier 8, Stun is melee and forces a blaster in close, so it's tier 6. Both do the same thing, and it's balanced.


[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite. Stunning shot has a native accuracy of 1.155 native accuracy, which is SIGNIFICANT in hitting more stuff, and also has SERIOUS range. Stun may have the same duration, but it it is melee ranged and nowhere near as safe. What's more, Stun is part of Energy Manipulations primary strength - Disorient effects. Together with Total Focus, you can stun a boss for a LONG time.


[/ QUOTE ]
Not Quite? Does that mean you don't think it's balanced?

stun is tier 6 and a melee attack, stunning shot is ranged and is tier 8. Clearly, that is balanced.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How are you even comparing Lightning Clap and OG? They're not even remotely close to being related to one another for comparison's sake.


[/ QUOTE ]
The are both stun effects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you may as well compare Resist Physical Damage to Unstoppable. Or even Power Push to Power Burst, because they both do damage.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tier has nothing to do with a power's importance or potency.

[/ QUOTE ]
It has to do with when you get the powers, and obviously, you don't want to get the good powers first. That's why fire imps are last on a fire controller. Saying there isn't a relation between when you get a power and how strong a power is is crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're under a misconception that, say, "more damage" means better, when in fact powers are balanced such that higher damage powers have recharge and cast such that their damage over time is WORSE than the first attack you get at level 1. Because the cost of most powers is balanced at around 0.192 scale damage per endurance point, they tend to also cost less as they're used less often.

The same is true of control and support powers, with AoE control coming with further limiters on native accuracy and recharge. Higher level powers aren't "better" than lower-level powers. As a matter of fact, they're typically worse over time, but offer the tradeoff of front-loaded effect which our system of quick combat benefits from in a lot of cases. But a power that comes later isn't always "better" than the powers that came before. If that were true, then Blazing Bolt would have to be many times better than Sniper Blast because the former comes at level 26 and the latter at level 8. Or you could argue that Fast Healing is better than... Fast Healing, because Willpower's Fast Healing comes at level 4, yet Regeneration's Fast Healing comes at level one. Or that Regeneration Quick Recovery which comes at level 4 is better than Willpower Quick Recovery which comes at level 20, even though the powers are identical copies of each other. Or you can look at Head Splitter vs. Cleave - for all intents and purposes identical powers, yet the one that does slightly more damage - Cleave - comes at 26 while the one that does slightly less - Head Splitter - comes at 32.

That's no a good way to compare powers given how many sets are pretty much jumbled copies of each other.

P.S. Blasted network connection causing me to post this four hours after I typed it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tier has nothing to do with a power's importance or potency.

[/ QUOTE ]It has to do with when you get the powers, and obviously, you don't want to get the good powers first. That's why fire imps are last on a fire controller. Saying there isn't a relation between when you get a power and how strong a power is is crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say they're not related. I said that what tier a power is has no effect on how strong the power is. A power will not be made any stronger or weaker depending on what tier the power is. If a power is strong is is more likely to be a later tier power, but there is no example anywhere in game of a power being weakened just because it is a lower tier or higher tier power.

People have been pointing it out to you this entire time and you're either too ignorant, oblivious, or just plain stubborn to realize it. Castle, who is the ultimate authority on the game numbers, has refuted this idea of yours as posited by other people in the past. He specifically stated that the strength of a power has nothing to do with when you get it. Basic powers come first. More complex ones come later. That's how it goes. 9 powers are designed for a set and then placed in their various tiers. The powers are made stronger or weaker depending on where they are made available.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun.


[/ QUOTE ]
I knew that is what you would say .... So now let me ask you two more questions ....

1) for all situations, the effectiveness of Holds can be substitued for the effectiveness of knockbacks (true/false)

2) for all situations, the effectiveness of knockbacks can be substitued for the effectiveness of holds (true/false)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a textbook strawman. I said in my post that holds are superior to KBs in most cases. Now you're asking me to respond to something I didn't say. What I said, and you can read it because you quoted it, is that IN SOME CASES, a KB is as good as a STUN.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's not a strawman. A strawman is where I argue against something not related to the subject. You are the one who said the in SOME CASES KB is as good as a stun (edited). Again, SOME CASES are the key words here.

What those two questions make obvious, is that a KB is in SOME CASES as good as a stun. But a Stun IN ALL CASES is as good as KB.

[ QUOTE ]

Tier is irrelevant. For example, Quick Recovery is a Tier 3 power for Regen, but a Tier 6 power for Willpower.


[/ QUOTE ]
THAT is a classic strawman. I'm comparing Primaries and Secondaries. Show me a toon that can be a Regen/Willpower.

[ QUOTE ]
That's not a strawman. A strawman is where I argue against something not related to the subject. [u]You are the one who said the in SOME CASES KB is as good as a hold.[u] Again, SOME CASES are the key words here.

What those two questions make obvious, is that a KB is in SOME CASES as good as a stun. But a Stun IN ALL CASES is as good as KB.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're either confused or dishonest. I NEVER said that. What I said was...

EvilGeko wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun. [u]It's not as good as a hold[u], but Ice and Electric are missing one or more tricks the other blaster sets get. (in Ice's case a targeted AoE, in Elec a strong ST blast.)


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to bother to respond to the rest because you're just making stuff up as you go along.

[ QUOTE ]

I didn't say they're not related. I said that what tier a power is has no effect on how strong the power is. A power will not be made any stronger or weaker depending on what tier the power is. If a power is strong is is more likely to be a later tier power, but there is no example anywhere in game of a power being weakened just because it is a lower tier or higher tier power.


[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? I think you contradicted yourself like 5 or 6 times in that paragraph.

[ QUOTE ]

People have been pointing it out to you this entire time and you're either too ignorant, oblivious, or just plain stubborn to realize it. Castle, who is the ultimate authority on the game numbers, has refuted this idea of yours as posited by other people in the past. He specifically stated that the strength of a power has nothing to do with when you get it. Basic powers come first. More complex ones come later. That's how it goes. 9 powers are designed for a set and then placed in their various tiers. The powers are made stronger or weaker depending on where they are made available.


[/ QUOTE ]
And you continue to contradict yourself.

The main problem I see going on here is people are thinking 2 dimensionally. I agree balance needs to be spread between each primary for each set, and each secondary to each set, but IMO 3 dimension thinking is needed to spread balance between a specific primary when matched up to a specific secondary. From what I've seen in the last several years playing various toons(or at least what sticks out the most) is force bolt and power push. I have yet to play every combination, so maybe I'm wrong, and there's others, but FF/NRG toon is the first I've come across.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
That's not a strawman. A strawman is where I argue against something not related to the subject. [u]You are the one who said the in SOME CASES KB is as good as a hold.[u] Again, SOME CASES are the key words here.

What those two questions make obvious, is that a KB is in SOME CASES as good as a stun. But a Stun IN ALL CASES is as good as KB.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're either confused or dishonest. I NEVER said that. What I said was...

EvilGeko wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I think that in some cases a KB is as good as a stun. [u]It's not as good as a hold[u], but Ice and Electric are missing one or more tricks the other blaster sets get. (in Ice's case a targeted AoE, in Elec a strong ST blast.)


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to bother to respond to the rest because you're just making stuff up as you go along.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad, I meant stun where i said hold.

Edit: It's not making stuff up, and obviously, saying that a stun is as good as KB in all situations is opinion. It is, however, much more useful.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say they're not related. I said that what tier a power is has no effect on how strong the power is. A power will not be made any stronger or weaker depending on what tier the power is. If a power is strong is is more likely to be a later tier power, but there is no example anywhere in game of a power being weakened just because it is a lower tier or higher tier power.


[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? I think you contradicted yourself like 5 or 6 times in that paragraph.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People have been pointing it out to you this entire time and you're either too ignorant, oblivious, or just plain stubborn to realize it. Castle, who is the ultimate authority on the game numbers, has refuted this idea of yours as posited by other people in the past. He specifically stated that the strength of a power has nothing to do with when you get it. Basic powers come first. More complex ones come later. That's how it goes. 9 powers are designed for a set and then placed in their various tiers. The powers are made stronger or weaker depending on where they are made available.


[/ QUOTE ]
And you continue to contradict yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to try to point out my contradictions? Please. Really. I want you to. Saying they're there doesn't mean they actually exist, just like all of the other assumptions and comparisons you continue to make in this thread.

[ QUOTE ]
The main problem I see going on here is people are thinking 2 dimensionally. I agree balance needs to be spread between each primary for each set, and each secondary to each set, but IMO 3 dimension thinking is needed to spread balance between a specific primary when matched up to a specific secondary. From what I've seen in the last several years playing various toons(or at least what sticks out the most) is force bolt and power push. I have yet to play every combination, so maybe I'm wrong, and there's others, but FF/NRG toon is the first I've come across.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you trying to make yourself seem like some game balance messiah by bringing up completely pointless comparisons and claiming that everyone else is oblivious to it? Really... What you seem to be ignoring is that powers within sets that are outside the basic role of the set are going to be less efficient in order to preserve balance. A power within a set that is trying to operate out of that power set's typified role (Scrapper secondaries are survivability, primaries are damage, Controller primaries are control, secondaries are support, etc.) is going to be less efficient than it would be otherwise specifically because it's trying to operate outside of normal bounds that set operates within. Power Push deals more damage but has less knockback and a higher recharge than Force Bolt. The knockback is support and is higher for the support power set's power. Damage is higher for the damage power set's power.

[ QUOTE ]

1) I didn't say they're not related.
2) I said that what tier a power is has no effect on how strong the power is.
3) A power will not be made any stronger or weaker depending on what tier the power is.
4) If a power is strong is is more likely to be a later tier power, but there is no example anywhere in game of a power being weakened just because it is a lower tier or higher tier power.


[/ QUOTE ]
1 contradicts your entire argument. You didn't say they're not related, but then you go on to argue that they aren't related.

2 contradicts 4 and 1, 3 contradicts 4 and 1, and 4 contradicts 1, 2, and 3.

[ QUOTE ]

People have been pointing it out to you this entire time and you're either too ignorant, oblivious, or just plain stubborn to realize it.

5) Castle, who is the ultimate authority on the game numbers, has refuted this idea of yours as posited by other people in the past.
6) He specifically stated that the strength of a power has nothing to do with when you get it.
6a) Basic powers come first. More complex ones come later.
That's how it goes. 9 powers are designed for a set and then placed in their various tiers. The powers are made stronger or weaker depending on where they are made available.


[/ QUOTE ]
5 contradicts 4, 1, and 6a.
6 contradicts 4, 1, and 6a.

A special note on 6a. You used the words Basic and Complex. These are two very good descriptors for the different powers. They can also be the difference between a strong power and a weak power in many (not all) instances. Fire imps is better than speed boost IMO, and is more complex. MoG is more complex than Divine Avalanche, and is better IMO. But it doesn't work in all cases, because saying Inertial Reduction is more complex than Ice Slick isn't correct. (I was comparing primaries and secondaries on a DB/Regen, Fire/Kin, and an Ice/Kin)

[ QUOTE ]

Are you trying to make yourself seem like some game balance messiah by bringing up completely pointless comparisons and claiming that everyone else is oblivious to it?


[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'm not a messiah, but thanks for thinking that. What I'm saying is your narrow minded in not thinking that there is already a balance between primaries and secondaries in place. The balance between force bolt and power push is skewed IMO. The damage is almost the same, the recharge is slower on the tier 7 power, and has less knockback.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1) I didn't say they're not related.
2) I said that what tier a power is has no effect on how strong the power is.
3) A power will not be made any stronger or weaker depending on what tier the power is.
4) If a power is strong is is more likely to be a later tier power, but there is no example anywhere in game of a power being weakened just because it is a lower tier or higher tier power.


[/ QUOTE ]
1 contradicts your entire argument. You didn't say they're not related, but then you go on to argue that they aren't related.

2 contradicts 4 and 1, 3 contradicts 4 and 1, and 4 contradicts 1, 2, and 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

The contradiction you seem to be trying to find is a semantic one. The difference between a relation and a correlation (which, I admit, I've accidentally overstepped in this discussion). There is a correlation between potency and tier, as I've said before. A tendency. A higher tier power is more likely to be more potent and a lower tier power is likely to be less so.

Think of it this way: ice cream sales and murder rates show a very strong statistical correlation. When ice cream sales are up, murder rates are also up. Does that mean they're related? No.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People have been pointing it out to you this entire time and you're either too ignorant, oblivious, or just plain stubborn to realize it.

5) Castle, who is the ultimate authority on the game numbers, has refuted this idea of yours as posited by other people in the past.
6) He specifically stated that the strength of a power has nothing to do with when you get it.
6a) Basic powers come first. More complex ones come later.
That's how it goes. 9 powers are designed for a set and then placed in their various tiers. The powers are made stronger or weaker depending on where they are made available.


[/ QUOTE ]
5 contradicts 4, 1, and 6a.
6 contradicts 4, 1, and 6a.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is 6a contradicted by either of those? Power complexity is only tangentially related to power potency and effectiveness unless you interpret complexity as potency, as you seem to be. Complexity has nothing to do with how strong a power is. If it were so, powers such as Storm Kick, which are incredibly powerful would be later choices rather than initial ones. No one would get or use early powers because they wouldn't be effective compared to the later ones. As it stands early powers are simply more basic, meaning that they generally recharge faster and provide the basic function of the AT more directly. Later powers tend to be less basic (Re: complex): they're less integral for generating attack strings, provide additional functionality to an AT beyond the basics, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
A special note on 6a. You used the words Basic and Complex. These are two very good descriptors for the different powers. They can also be the difference between a strong power and a weak power in many (not all) instances.

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet you purposefully use the basic/complex and weak/strong comparisons indiscriminately. I specifically used the terms basic/complex because they include innumerable other variables outside of direct effect of a power to account for a power's placement within a power set. You simply decided to ignore the difference and use it to try to make it seem like I'm agreeing with you (which I'm not).

[ QUOTE ]
Fire imps is better than speed boost IMO, and is more complex. MoG is more complex than Divine Avalanche, and is better IMO. But it doesn't work in all cases, because saying Inertial Reduction is more complex than Ice Slick isn't correct. (I was comparing primaries and secondaries on a DB/Regen, Fire/Kin, and an Ice/Kin)

[/ QUOTE ]

Inertial Reduction could easily be considered to be more complex than Ice Slick. Ice Slick is a PbAoE knockdown. It provides a basic function (control) to the AT (controller). Inertial Reduction is a PbAoE +jump. It provides a non-combat benefit. Non-combat benefits are more complex than combat benefits, especially when you consider that everything in game has to be examined from a combat perspective. How to gain benefit from Inertial Reduction while in combat is much more complicated than how to gain benefit from Ice Slick.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you trying to make yourself seem like some game balance messiah by bringing up completely pointless comparisons and claiming that everyone else is oblivious to it?


[/ QUOTE ]No, I'm not a messiah, but thanks for thinking that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your reading comprehension skills must be incredibly lacking if you think that's what I was saying. If you need a quick primer on "How to Read Intent", here's a sample:

If someone questions you asking whether you are attempting to make yourself seem exceedingly grand, the person does not actually believe what you're trying to do. They're seeing through it.

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying is your narrow minded in not thinking that there is already a balance between primaries and secondaries in place. The balance between force bolt and power push is skewed IMO. The damage is almost the same, the recharge is slower on the tier 7 power, and has less knockback.

[/ QUOTE ]

The damage is not "almost the same". The damage is twice as much. You're also ignoring the primary/secondary disparity issue. If a power in a secondary were just as potent as that of a power that same AT's primary, that would be completely broken, not to mention that it ignores the fact that balance is done for a power set as a whole not as a series of independent powers. Force Bolt should recharge faster and have greater support capability (re: higher mag knockback) because it's there to support. The damage means less because it's there to support, and, because it's a knockback power, it needs to be back up quickly in order to actually perform that support. Power Push, on the other hand, is a support power in a damage set. It's less effective and takes longer to recharge because it's a support power in a set that has the function of dealing damage.

Your inability to actually accept that powers from a primary and powers from a secondary shouldn't actually be equal is incredibly exasperating. Any idea behind having something like that would generate ridiculous imbalance. If a Scrapper wants to get some extra damage from his secondary by sacrificing a bit of survivability (Fiery Aura), it shouldn't be as efficient. It's a defensive power set. It should focus on defense. If a Controller wants to have some extra control capability from his secondary by sacrificing a bit of traditional support (Trick Arrow), that should be less efficient than the controls in his primary or cost the power set as a whole more. Any deviation from assigned power set role should come at an increased cost, otherwise it's pointless to even have different roles.

[ QUOTE ]

There is a correlation between potency and tier


[/ QUOTE ]
Change correlation to relation, and I'll agree with you.

[ QUOTE ]

Think of it this way: ice cream sales and murder rates show a very strong statistical correlation. When ice cream sales are up, murder rates are also up. Does that mean they're related? No.


[/ QUOTE ]
Which makes this arguement irrelevant. There is a relation between primary and secondary powers in regards to their tiers. Show me one other example where there are two powers that do virtually the same thing, and are seperated by 4 tiers between a primary and a secondary, and I will stand corrected.

Every other powers which are similar I've listed earlier are balanced between primary and secondary. I'm sure I could find more if I wanted to.

[ QUOTE ]

Power complexity is only tangentially related to power potency and effectiveness unless you interpret complexity as potency, as you seem to be


[/ QUOTE ]
Sort of. I'm interpretting complexity to be similar to potency. The less complex a power is, the less potent it is, but I admit that will not always be the case.

[ QUOTE ]

Complexity has nothing to do with how strong a power is


[/ QUOTE ]
Disagree with this.

[ QUOTE ]

No one would get or use early powers because they wouldn't be effective compared to the later ones


[/ QUOTE ]
That is impossible to accomplish. You are forced to take powers early, and the only other choices of powers at mid level would be from the power pools. They aren't always optimal for a build you are trying to create.

[ QUOTE ]

And yet you purposefully use the basic/complex and weak/strong comparisons indiscriminately.


[/ QUOTE ]
I some cases, basic == weak, and complex == stong. That's why I agree with using basic and complex as it does more reflect how powers work.

[ QUOTE ]

Inertial Reduction could easily be considered to be more complex than Ice Slick. Ice Slick is a PbAoE knockdown. It provides a basic function (control) to the AT (controller). Inertial Reduction is a PbAoE +jump. It provides a non-combat benefit. Non-combat benefits are more complex than combat benefits, especially when you consider that everything in game has to be examined from a combat perspective. How to gain benefit from Inertial Reduction while in combat is much more complicated than how to gain benefit from Ice Slick.


[/ QUOTE ]
And yet Ice Slick is more powerful than Inertial Reduction. I was using this as a counter example in showing that basic == weak and complex == strong doesn't always hold up, which is why I said in some cases it's true.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Are you trying to make yourself seem like some game balance messiah by bringing up completely pointless comparisons and claiming that everyone else is oblivious to it?


[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'm not a messiah, but thanks for thinking that.


[/ QUOTE ]
Your reading comprehension skills must be incredibly lacking if you think that's what I was saying. If you need a quick primer on "How to Read Intent", here's a sample:

If someone questions you asking whether you are attempting to make yourself seem exceedingly grand, the person does not actually believe what you're trying to do. They're seeing through it.


[/ QUOTE ]
*cough* Sarcasm *cough*

[ QUOTE ]

The damage is not "almost the same". The damage is twice as much.


[/ QUOTE ]
7 and 14 are trivial.

[ QUOTE ]

You're also ignoring the primary/secondary disparity issue. If a power in a secondary were just as potent as that of a power that same AT's primary, that would be completely broken, not to mention that it ignores the fact that balance is done for a power set as a whole not as a series of independent powers.


[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this, and invite you to show me another example where two similar powers are a 4 tier spread. As I've stated, all sets are balanced between primary and secondary that I have found. I may be wrong, but no counter-example has thus far been presented.

[ QUOTE ]

Your inability to actually accept that powers from a primary and powers from a secondary shouldn't actually be equal is incredibly exasperating.


[/ QUOTE ]
Show me another imbalance between a primary and a secondary. I have plenty of examples of similarities. All I'm saying is that for all possible primaries and secondaries, there is a less than or equal to a 3 tier spread on similar powers except for FF and NRG Defenders. There is no reason there should be a 4 tier spread between these two powers. Unless you are arguing that by chance, all other primaries and secondaries became balanced by chance.

[ QUOTE ]
Show me one other example where there are two powers that do virtually the same thing, and are seperated by 4 tiers between a primary and a secondary, and I will stand corrected.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fiery Embrace from Fiery Aura and any Scrapper Build Up. Fiery Embrace is a tier 8. Build up is a tier 4. Fiery Embrace is actually weaker.

Quick Recovery from Regen and Dark Consumption from Dark Melee. QR is tier 3 and Dark Consumption is tier 7.

Spine Burst from Spines and Burn from Fiery Aura. Spine Burst is tier 3 and Burn is tier 7.

Divine Avalanche from Katana and Elude from Super Reflexes. DA is tier 5 and Elude is tier 9.

Will you shut up now? I found 4 examples that were actually closer comparisons than yours when you only asked for 1.

[ QUOTE ]

Fiery Embrace from Fiery Aura and any Scrapper Build Up. Fiery Embrace is a tier 8. Build up is a tier 4. Fiery Embrace is actually weaker.


[/ QUOTE ]
Fiery Embrace has 25% extra damage to fire, and double the duration of the Scrappers buildup. While maybe I'd make this tier 7, overall, it's still not that bad simply because the duration is double that of build up (20 seconds instead of 10)

[ QUOTE ]

Spine Burst from Spines and Burn from Fiery Aura. Spine Burst is tier 3 and Burn is tier 7.


[/ QUOTE ]
These do completly different things. Spine Burst is an AoE Immob Attack that immobs targets for 12 seconds with a mag of less than 1. Prevents jumping, and flying for 10 seconds.

Burn does deal some damage, but is primarily a resist immob effect that lasts for a minute and 40 seconds. How could you even try to compare these two?

[ QUOTE ]

Quick Recovery from Regen and Dark Consumption from Dark Melee. QR is tier 3 and Dark Consumption is tier 7.


[/ QUOTE ]
Quick Recovery is like stamina, and is always active. Dark Consumption is an attack that deals damage and recovers endurance. These aren't even similar either.

[ QUOTE ]

Divine Avalanche from Katana and Elude from Super Reflexes. DA is tier 5 and Elude is tier 9.


[/ QUOTE ]
Divine Avalanche is an attack that only offers 15% defense for 10 seconds... Elude is god mode.

Clearly, you have lost your mind, or your just being stupid on purpose in using these as examples. Congratz on wasting your time looking for these.

Edit: And you've also proven without a doubt with this post you haven't a clue about how these different powers are balanced. Good thing that's not a P.E.R.C. requirement though.

Folonius, enjoy your thread. Right now, it's been explained enough times by enough people that anything further is a waste of my time.

[ QUOTE ]
Folonius, enjoy your thread. Right now, it's been explained enough times by enough people that anything further is a waste of my time.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh huh .... sure ...

*Continues to wait for a counter example*

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fiery Embrace from Fiery Aura and any Scrapper Build Up. Fiery Embrace is a tier 8. Build up is a tier 4. Fiery Embrace is actually weaker.


[/ QUOTE ]Fiery Embrace has 25% extra damage to fire, and double the duration of the Scrappers buildup. While maybe I'd make this tier 7, overall, it's still not that bad simply because the duration is double that of build up (20 seconds instead of 10)

[/ QUOTE ]

I say weaker because it's completely lacking the +tohit and has twice the recharge of Build Up to counteract the extended duration. It's a BU without +tohit. That's weaker.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Spine Burst from Spines and Burn from Fiery Aura. Spine Burst is tier 3 and Burn is tier 7.

[/ QUOTE ]
These do completly different things. Spine Burst is an AoE Immob Attack that immobs targets for 12 seconds with a mag of less than 1. Prevents jumping, and flying for 10 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, it's not an Immob attack. The immobilization is only .33 mag, hardly enough to actually count it as an immobilization. It doesn't prevent flying or jumping at all. You're simply showing how ignorant you are of the actual game information. That's a reduction in movement speed. The reduction in recharge and movement speed (along with the DoT) are simply the secondary effect of Spines/*. Please, try to actually learn what you're trying to argue.

[ QUOTE ]
Burn does deal some damage, but is primarily a resist immob effect that lasts for a minute and 40 seconds. How could you even try to compare these two?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple: they're both AoE damage attacks. Burn isn't primarily a resist immob effect. It's primarily an AoE attack. That's why it does so much damage.

AoE attack to AoE attack. Your inability to see the similarities are amusing considering you compared Thunder Clap and Oppressive Gloom to each other. That's hilarious. Burn and Spine Burst have more in common with each other than those two.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quick Recovery from Regen and Dark Consumption from Dark Melee. QR is tier 3 and Dark Consumption is tier 7.


[/ QUOTE ]Quick Recovery is like stamina, and is always active. Dark Consumption is an attack that deals damage and recovers endurance. These aren't even similar either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even more obvious demonstration of your ignorance of real effects. Dark Consumption is an end recovery power that deals a small amount of damage. If damage were it's primary purpose, it would firstly have a recharge time that wasn't horribly long. Its damage is too low and its recharge is too long for it to be classified as an attack. Nice job trying there. End recovery powers are equivalent to each other.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Divine Avalanche from Katana and Elude from Super Reflexes. DA is tier 5 and Elude is tier 9.


[/ QUOTE ]Divine Avalanche is an attack that only offers 15% defense for 10 seconds... Elude is god mode.

[/ QUOTE ]

DA/Parry are attacks that are capable of softcapped the melee and lethal defense of the user out of the box. Talk to any kat/* or BS/* Scrapper and they'll tell you that DA is more powerful and useful than Elude is. DA/Parry can be stacked permanently for the same +def contribution as Elude and doesn't have a crash associated with it. They're both defense powers. Defense powers are comparable.

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly, you have lost your mind, or your just being stupid on purpose in using these as examples. Congratz on wasting your time looking for these.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, you may want to actually learn to read the information on City of Data, so that next time you try to actually read the entries you'll actually comprehend them. You may want to also look at the power as a whole rather than just determining that because it deals damage it's an attack or protects from a mez effect that it's a mez protection power. You're constant inability to actually figure out what a power does is amusing.

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: And you've also proven without a doubt with this post you haven't a clue about how these different powers are balanced.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at how little you actually know about the powers, I'm amazed that you even think you're capable of determining whether powers are balanced. Are you even capable of reading the entries in City of Data? Are you really that incapable of actually determining a power's purpose that you think that Dark Consumption, with it's 3 minute recharge and 55 damage, is balanced around being an attack rather than an end recovery tool? Are you that blind to the actual capabilities and functions of powers?

[ QUOTE ]

You're constant inability to actually figure out what a power does is amusing.


[/ QUOTE ]
Your inability to grasp the simple concept of balance is amusing to me.

[ QUOTE ]

Looking at how little you actually know about the powers, I'm amazed that you even think you're capable of determining whether powers are balanced.


[/ QUOTE ]
Funny, I said the same thing about you. Your grasping at straws trying to disprove that force bolt and power push are broken, yet you can't seem to be able to ... Just FYI, I'm done reading the garbage your saying. I'm just gonna pick out the sections where your trying to turn this into a flame now.

I'm amazed that nobody pointed out that Lightning Clap doesn't do damage.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You're constant inability to actually figure out what a power does is amusing.


[/ QUOTE ]
Your inability to grasp the simple concept of balance is amusing to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you even know what balance is?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looking at how little you actually know about the powers, I'm amazed that you even think you're capable of determining whether powers are balanced.

[/ QUOTE ]
Funny, I said the same thing about you. Your grasping at straws trying to disprove that force bolt and power push are broken, yet you can't seem to be able to ... Just FYI, I'm done reading the garbage your saying. I'm just gonna pick out the sections where your trying to turn this into a flame now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folonius, you've consistently been inable to actually read the information correctly. You forget about some aspects of powers and see other aspects that are virtually invisible as being integral to the effect of a power. You're harking on about you're ability to see imbalance where no one else does while simultaneously demonstrating that you're incapable of actually figuring out what a power does when you're given the information. When you actually start figuring out how to read City of Data, I'll actually consider what you have to say. Before then, it's simply a sad fact that you're simply not capable of being able to contribute to the discussion because you don't have the necessary expertise.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you even know what balance is?


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and despite what you might think, it doesn't involve holding a pole while walking on a beam.

is this another one of those threads where the op isn't being agreed with so he is going to totaly bypass any questions and just throw out numbers to try to make himself look smarter even though he is doing the exact opposite? if so i'm going to grab a big ol' bowl of popcorn and extra large soda and sit back and watch.

Let's check your lauded comparisons...

[ QUOTE ]
Brute:
Electrical Melee: Lightning Clap -> Dark Armor: Oppressive Gloom
Lightning Clap is tier 8, deals damage, and has a long recharge
Opressive Gloom is tier 8, a stun toggle, but deals damage to the user.
These are balanced.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thunder Clap is a mag 2 stun with a 50% chance to add another mag 1 to that. It's got a 9.536 sec duration and a 30 sec recharge time. It's also got a 5.193 mag knockback attached to it (making it a little less useful to those in melee, especially considering it's an PbAoE). It also costs a whopping 13 endurance. Something else to consider: base accuracy of .8. To make it close to perma and reasonably useful, you're best path is to put in 3 stun enhancements (18.5952 sec duration), 2 recharge (down to 18.75 seconds), and slot an accuracy in there. Hopefully you've got more accuracy to stack on to it because 1.064 enhanced accuracy isn't particularly stellar, especially when you're fighting higher level enemies. The other problem is that it's also got that Knockback, which isn't really considered to be an upside for melee PbAoEs...

Oppressive Gloom is a .078 end/sec toggle that deals virtually no damage to the user (2 dps is less than base regen). It's perma right out of the box and has a base accuracy of 1. The duration is nearly 3.5 times the activation time, so it's already got a 357.6% uptime. The only slotting it needs to be perma and useful is the base slot for accuracy. Even better, you have to miss three times for the enemy to actually drop out of the stun.

See what I mean? Those powers are only similar insofar as they're the same tier and they stun. Everything else is completely different.

[ QUOTE ]
Many blaster primaries: Aim -> Devices: Targeting Drone
Aim is the same across most blaster primaries, either tier 4, 5, or 6 and does the same in each set. 37.5% to hit base and 62.5% damage bonus.
Targetting Drone is tier 4, and inceases To hit by 13.875%. It also increases perception and resistance to debuff and it's a toggle.
I have a fire/dev blaster, and the damage increase on Aim is a huge bonus, and because Targetting Drone offers less ACC and no damage buff and is a toggle, I feel it's balanced.

[/ QUOTE ]

This one is just funny. You're completely ignoring that Targetting Drone is actually a replacement for Build Up, which, considering the alpha strike capabilities and +dam it provide rather than mostly redundant +tohit, is easily considered the better of the two powers. Suggesting that Targetting Drone and Aim are balanced against each other is pretty funny, unless you consider up how Build Up and Aim are balanced against each other and Targetting Drone is balanced against Build Up (the power it's actually replacing).

[ QUOTE ]
Controller
Earth: Quicksand -> Trick Arrow: Glue Arrow

These do the same thing, quicksand is tier 3 and glue arrow is tier 4. These, IMO, should be tweeked, but they are no where near how bad force bolt and power push are. I do understand the reason Quicksand is tier 4 (hold, immob, aoe immob are first three in the majority of hold sets), but I would cut 10-20 seconds from glue arrow's recharge, or swap glue arrow to tier 4 and make ice arrow tier 3.
Overall, they are only seperated by 1 tier so this example is close to balanced IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're pretty similar, except that Quicksand has a huge -def debuff (25%) and Glue Arrow has standard grade -recharge (20%). You're also brushing off the, as intended, recharge time that's twice as high for Glue Arrow and the fact that Quicksand lasts 50% longer. Are you still so sure they're balanced? Quicksand recharges twice as fast, has a larger and more significant debuff and lasts 50% longer. Still determined that they're balanced against each other?

[ QUOTE ]
Defender:
Storm Summoning: Thunder Clap -> Dark Blast: Dark Pit
Thunder clap is tier 7, and Dark Pit is tier 4, and both powers cause stun. Dark Pit has a recharge of 60 seconds, and stuns for 11.92 seconds, and Thunder clap has a recharge of 45 seconds and stuns for 14.9 seconds. Obviously, Thunder clap is the better of the two because of the shorter recharge, and longer stun duration, so it's balanced.

[/ QUOTE ]

You also missed that Dark Pit has a max number of targets of 10 and Thunder Clap has a max number of targets of 4, Dark Pit costs 13 endurance whereas Thunder Clap costs 10.4, and Thunder Clap doesn't have a type based defense (which is actually a huge advantage).

The problem with the 4 (of your 6 originals) are actually better evidence of my position than yours. Of course, you're not going to concede this because you're purposefully oblivious to all of the points I make.

OG is better at protection via mez than Thunder Clap. OG has a clear advantage, not just in that it's more accurate, but also that it's got better uptime and upkeep advantages while simultaneously being cheaper. They're not balanced against each other.

Aim and Targeting Drone are only balanced because the power that the power that Targeting Drone replaces is balanced against Aim, which you conveniently don't mention. Plus, you use allegorical evidence rather than any actual verifiable comparison to determine equality, which completely ignores the fact that Targeting Drone has a higher end cost, doesn't provide any of the substantial +dam that Aim does, and the only benefits are +per and +res(tohit), both of which are only situationally useful and do nothing to account for the huge +dam disparity.

Quicksand and Glue Arrow are, as I more than adequately pointed out, not even remotely balanced against each other. Quicksand is equivalent in move debuff, more powerful in specific debuff, recharging significantly faster, and lasting significantly longer. That's not balanced unless you've got some very strange views on balance.

You readily admit that Thunder Clap and Dark Pit are imbalanced, and you attribute this to the tier difference, though you completely ignore the fact that the primary/secondary disparity could actually be the culprit. You automatically made the assumption that the discrepancy is a result of tier disparity. If anything, it should have made you look for a better example rather than trying to flimsily make it seem like a valid piece of evidence.

It's even worse that you didn't even know about the powers I mentioned, which are very obvious in their comparative functionality. That is, if you actually know about how the game works and how those powers are used and designed to be used, which you've shown a woeful lack of expertise in.

I've gotten credited with knowing about game balance because I've actually done the work to check it out. People can't poke holes in my reasoning when they actually listen to me rather than automatically assuming their own correctness and ignoring all evidence to the contrary. I debate people on their own terms and even try to make sure those terms are disambiguous and constant rather than constantly changing definitions and fusing terms that are being used in an exclusive manner. It also doesn't help that you're confusing the terminology yourself. Causation (re: relation) is in no where evident in your evidence. It only exists within your conjecture and has yet to be able to withstand intelligent scrutiny (as I've done to it time and again). The only thing that exists insofar as is concerned is the correlation between tier and potency, though this is routinely demolished. The only comparisons you're able to make to support this conjecture are the rare intersections of functionality within two power sets of an AT and even those don't withstand someone who actually knows what's going on.

I have demonstrated time and again that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. You went into this argument using flawed information and have come out of it using misinterpretation of presented information and a lack of knowledge concerning the actual powers in question. I strongly recommend you actually learn what you're trying to lecture me on before you try to show me up. You're doing a horrible job.

I'm only continuing this, fully knowing that you're incapable of actually admitting your own wrong (as evidenced by you incapability to actually confront your errors within this debate preferring to simply ignore them) for 2 reasons: I hope to educate anyone else who may be reading this other than you and that I think that, maybe, one day, when you actually learn all of the information and how to take into account all of the variables that you regularly ignore, you could possibly know a bit about balance. You've shown no ability to actually distinguish between balanced and imbalanced powers and have an obvious predilection for being incapable of actually considering that your hypothesis can't be proven, especially when faced with evidence of the contrary and having your own evidence proven untrue and obsolete. It doesn't help that your evidence is, in and of itself, a rare occurrence, so much so that you've only been able to find a few pieces, which, even then, are actually more appropriately used to prove a completely separate and contradictory theory.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Energy Drain is a +heal/+end with a substantial end drain to the mobs and a 60 second recharge


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming you used Mids to get your info. I haven't tried the power in game since I'm talking about FB and PP, but according to Paragon Wiki Energy Drain is not a heal, it is an end buff only. I'm not sure if the recharge that is listed in mids is correct either, but paragon wiki does list the recharge as long, and the recharge for dark comsumption as very long, so I would assume the recharge displayed in mids is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]No one updated the Energy Drain entry after Energy Aura got buffed in I13. The entry has been corrected now.