Ebon_Angel

So, I've given a few examples in each description, but those aren't the only Archetypes that can fill those roles. So now I'll list each Archetype with the main roles they can fill.

Blaster:
Reaper, frontliner, sweeper, bodyguard, manager, scout, hitman.

Brute:
Frontliner, reaper, meatshield, sweeper, bodyguard.

Controller:
Manager, helper, protector, bodyguard, sweeper, meatshield (with pets), supplier.

Corruptor:
Reaper, sweeper, frontliner, protector, helper, supplier, sweeper, scout, hitman, bodyguard.

Defender:
Helper, protector, supplier, manager, bodyguard, reaper, sweeper, hitman.

Dominator:
Manager, hitman, frontliner, sweeper, bodyguard, protector, supplier.

Kheldian:
Everything and anything.

Mastermind:
Meatshield, reaper, frontliner, protector, supplier.

Scrapper:
Hitman, sweeper, bodyguard, frontliner, meatshield, scout.

Stalker:
Scout, hitman, sweeper, bodyguard, frontliner.

Tanker:
Meatshield, bodyguard, frontliner, protector.


I've tried to list them in general order of effectiveness. Interestingly, while there are a couple of primary role duplications (Blasters and Corruptors as Reapers, Controllers and Dominators and Managers) generally no two archetypes fill the same roles in the same way, or to the same effectiveness. And of course, the roles can vary within Archetypes depending on the specific powersets chosen.

Each player should be filling several roles at any one time in most situations, though in extreme situations it may be necessary to focus on one important task. Given this, and the amount of overlap between archetypes, there should always be at least one person filling every role and preferably several, especially post-ED.

What roles you need to be filling will be very fluid, too, over surprisingly short time spans. Most people expect to adjust to the absence of a team member, or the presence of a new one. But it is also necessary to shift roles when a compatriot is killed, held, or even simply stunned, if only for the few seconds it takes for the status quo to be resumed. Keep on top of what each of your team members can do, and whether they are currently capable of doing it. To do so well requires good knowledge of every power available to all your team members, and an understanding of when and where to best apply your own specific abilities. This does not come easy, or quickly, but a full team that all know what they are doing, and what they can do should the need arise, will steamroll through missions so fast they barely have to let go of the run key.

Frontliner:
The in-your-face damage dealer. The main source of damage, the ones that make the really big orange numbers appear. Doesn't necessarily have to be able to take the same punishment that it's so generously handing out, that's a different role. They just have to make people fall down quickly. Typical AT's: Brute, Blaster, Scrapper.

Sweeper:
A frontliner with taste. Picks and chooses their targets, often the already damaged, or those trying to escape. Keeps the fight nice and tidy by cleaning up the left-overs. Mobility or range are useful attributes, combined with the ability to stop mobs from doing whatever it was that was attracted the sweepers attention, be it moving, attacking or existing. Typical AT's: Scrapper, Corruptor, Dominator.

Reaper:
The lawn boy. Mows down the weeds and chaff. There can be a lot of minions around in some missions, with little health or resistances compared to the important enemies. The reaper is tasked with keeping such distractions from interfering for too long. Naturally Area of Effect abilities contribute a great deal to competence in this area, though a lot of quick but strong attacks (such as a Brute with full Fury) can suffice. Typical AT's: Blaster, Corruptor, Kheldian in Nova form.

Hitman:
Has a specific target, and takes them down. The bigger the better, usually. Handles bosses and AV's - or particularly annoying lieutentants (Tsoo sorcerers, I'm looking at you) on occasion - and has particular gifts to chew through the extended health of such foes while being able to ignore the attention lavished upon them in return. Typical AT's: Scrapper, Brute, Stalker.

Meatshield:
A damage sponge. Somewhere for all the enemy attacks to go so they don't get in the way of important funtions like breathing and punching the living daylights out of people. Either something big and tough, or weak but expendable. Typical AT's: Tanker, Mastermind, Kheldian in Tank form.

Bodyguard:
Allegedly the best form of defense is a good offense, and the Bodyguard believes that with all their heart. Beats up on anyone who is hitting something other than the Meatshield, and prevents any damage from being dealth through the simple expedient of removing conciousness from the aggressor. Similar to the sweeper, though target selection is based on different criteria. Typical AT's: Scrapper, Tanker, Dominator.

Protector:
Turns squishes into Meatshields, or least not-so-squishies. There are lots of ways of doing this, usually through buffing the squishy, though not exclusively. Anything that ensures you're comrades are being hit less counts. Typical AT's: Defender, Corruptor, Controller.

Manager:
Crowd management, to be exact. Stops enemies from doing something undesirable, like, for example, hitting back. Or at least hitting your team. Typical AT's: Controller, Dominator, Tanker.

Helper:
Primarily they help you - either through making you better, or making the enemies worse. But also anything that in combination with your abilities becomes greater than the sum of its parts, so can be filled by any AT that complements another. Typical AT's: Defender, Tanker/Blaster combo, Dominator/Stalker combo.

Scout:
A rather undervalued role in such a fast paced game, but an amazingly useful one when used correctly. Stealth and good perception can be used to forewarn your team of upcoming threats, and pre-select important targets for your team so they don't have to find the boss buried in the scrum of bodies once the fun begins. Hitmen and Managers particularly can use the assist through feature to great effect by using a scout as their eyes. Typical AT's: Stalker, Blaster, Kheldian.

Supplier:
Gives you what you need, primarily health and endurance, but can also be something as simple as inspirations - some AT's need inspirations a lot less than others, especially in a well functioning team, and will get better return by giving them to those who need them. All the buffs in the world (apart from maybe Fulcrum Shift) can't beat a brute swallowing the team's entire collection of Rages. Learn who needs what you don't, and remember to pass them on. Typical AT's: Defender, Corruptor, Masterminds.

Or, what to do and when to do it.

Much has been said about the roles of the different Archetypes within teams. Any such advice can usually be put into one of two general theories: AT's are very specific and everyone has a defined role, or a decent player can play any role with decent use of their powers and good support.

As with any such dichotomy, the truth usually lies somewhere betwixt the two. I hope, with this guide, to describe that in-between place. This requires two broad stages: identifying the needed jobs within a team, then identifying which AT's can fill those.


So, what are the roles? These are not the same as the archetypes - an archetype is merely a collection of tools, it says nothing about the uses to which those tools are put. I've split the roles into three broad categories: offensive, defensive and support.

Offensive: Frontliner, sweeper, reaper, hitman.
Defensive: Meatshield, bodyguard, protector, manager.
Support: Helper, scout, supplier.


Yes, they're weird names, but this is my guide, so I can call them what I want :P
Next, what all those weird names mean...

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a great idea: get rid of inherent powers in all mobs. Make those powers toggle or click powers just like the player version. Carry the toggle-dropping aspects of powers over to PvE, and let us fight mobs on a leve lplaying field. That Freakshow juicer giving you problems? Brawl him and watch him plumment to his death, sicne his flight as just been shut off. Those sky raiders chasing you in the air? Watch as their fligth speed gets suppressed from them attacking you. Uh-oh... Mr. Behemoth just lost all his defesnive/damage resist powers because he ran out of endurance. Mobs don't seem so tough when they have to play fair, do they?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seconded, absolutely. Inherents on mobs remove a HUGE chunk of the strategy available to players, and emphasise the importance of damage - if you can't debuff or hold to remove the powers, then what use are secondary effects? What else is there except hit them very hard until their health is gone?

Players have got tired of computer controlled enemies breaking the rules. It isn't fair, and one of the primary requirements of meaningful gameplay is that it feels fair. This doesn't.

[ QUOTE ]

I've been complaining that, even with a small group, your base should be able to do something interesting (beyond just looking pretty) shortly after getting it, if not immediately. Your post supports my complaint rather than "dispelling" it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is where a lot of the arguments come from. I don't expect my base to do something except look pretty immediately. It's more than I had before CoV, even if just decorative. And I'm quite happy to wait for everything else, however long it takes.

I do understand your viewpoint, however, and can see why it would be frustrating. Hence my suggestion previously about having "beginner" rooms and items to significantly lower the time to minimal functionality.

[ QUOTE ]
A character has two powers (four if you count Sprint/Brawl - Rest doesn't come along until level 2) from the instant you create them. A base does absolutely nothing at the start and it takes many, many hours of play accrue enough prestige to get it to do anything. (Except looking pretty, but characters do that at the start, too, in addition to their powers.)

If you had to wait a month and a half for your character to get his first power, then I'm sure people would be complaining about that, too. If you had to "complete" (I assume that means "get to max level") even one character, that would be even worse - can you imagine the uproar if the devs decided that only Kheldians got powers and other ATs had to get by on their looks?

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't exactly fair, because there is nothing to do in the game except use your characters powers - it is the point. Bases, however, are an extra, a bonus - therefore there is not quite the same necessity upon them to be interactive from birth. While, yes, I can see it would be nice, it isn't essential.

As I say, hopefully a compromise will be introduced that allows those who want something now to have something, while not taking away the long term goals from those of us who like to have something to look forward to.

Imagine meeting a four man SG, being invited into their base, and finding yourself on the largest plot, with all the fanciest whirlygigs. How impressed would you be? "Wow, these guys having been playing a long time." That's my Vision(tm), and I'd hate to see it cheapened by the high end stuff being easier, just in the name of making the earlier bases quicker to attain. I'm sure there can be a compromise that ensures both desires can be satisfied.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid you're remembering somewhat wrong. There is a grace period after your first missed payment during which you base is powered down. But if you continue to ignore rent, eventually all access to your base is lost. Once you pay your rent, access is restored.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no and no.

Up until now I have been defending the way bases are setup, and yes, even the prices, and I'm only in a 4 man SG. I've been willing to wait to get all the nifty do-hickeys and whizzbangs for our base, however long it took. I like having a long-term goal.

But this? Uhuh. Waiting for functional base is one thing. Having to pay just to have access to a purely decorative base is completely different. Even the biggest decorative room is "only" 150,000 - I've made that in CoV and then some with no problem. So I figured the idea was that even a single person could have a decorative base very quickly, while "active" bases where intended for larger SG's. But it's the small to medium SG's that actually want functionality in their base that are getting screwed over once again - they're the ones that will have trouble paying for everything, and forcing them to pay the rent is just going to extenuate that issue.

We'll just have a base we can't get into for now, I think. It'd be nice to hang out in it, and I've amused myself when nobody else is on with redecorating, but if I have to choose between that and getting functionality, I'll pick the latter. I don't want to have to make that choice however, and it is a bad decision to force it upon us.

[ QUOTE ]
That's beside the point. As I read the "starter" generator/control suggestion, it's about providing a way for a new sg to get a base that does something (not necessarily everything, for which needing the full-size generator/mainframe is appropriate, just something) without having to spend months raising 3/4 million prestige.

I think that would be a good thing to do. But, then, I think that you should be able to get your base to do something (again, definitely not everything, and maybe not even something useful, just something cool besides sitting there looking pretty) almost immediately after getting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Our 4 person SG is about 20k short of a database, currently. After that it's just the workshop and worktable and we're functional. This is with casual play of maybe a month, since we didn't start the SG for a few weeks initially. So the higher prices are not completely unobtainable - it just means we have to wait a while. My suggestion was merely to remove the initial wait, by giving players something they can actually have functional in the base, while they work up to the current "starting" equipment.

[ QUOTE ]
Even with all the transporters, a raid teleprtor, medical reclaimefr and auto doc, there is no real function the base provides. There is no real benefit. If bases vanished today, there is no feature anyone would miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

And in the patch after, we'll take away all costume customisation options, since they provide no real benefit, perform no function, and so we feel no one would miss them.

They certainly perform useful functions for me - they keep me entertained. And since that's the whole damn reason I'm playing the game in the first place, I'd say it was mission successful. More things to do is even more entertaining, hence my suggestion for jump starting a base, so players have more options.

What exactly would you define as "a real function" for a base, out of interest?

There's enough there for a basic worktable, and an advanced can be added with the addition of a basic control auxillary, like a console.

Though since I proposed a smaller workshop that could only take one workbench, you wouldn't be adding a second until you could afford the bigger workshop room anyway.

I posted this in another thread, but it is highly appropriate here too.
A large part of the complaints center around getting just a basic starting base up and running.
Which got me thinking, and I did some checking on Test.

The basic Generator produces 1000 energy and costs 225000.
The basic "Control" unit produces 50 control and costs 150000.
The basic worktable needs...20 energy and 10 control.

So the other 980 energy and 40 control are wasted. Even with the advanced worktable, that's 70 energy and 35 control total, well within limits.

It would make a lot of sense it seems to introduce a "starter" version of the generators and control items.
50k for 100 energy and 75k for 25 energy. Both of these would be 1x1 sized items, which would fit nicely into 2x1 "starting" versions of their respective rooms. Halving the cost on both those rooms, because they are now half size seems sensible. While we're at it, let's do the same for workshops and teleport rooms, both only taking one of their respective items.

What does all that give us?

Well, a "working" base, with sufficient power and control for the basic worktable, would cost:
75k + 50k + 50k = for the rooms,
50k + 75k + 25k = for the equipment,
for a total of 325k for a working base.

In other words, a 15 man SG needs only 25k to have a base they can start making stuff with.

This doesn't remove the big bases as something to really have to work towards for big SG's (though whether that's still overdone is open for debate), but allows a small SG to very quickly get an operating base up and running with the minimum of fuss.

A large part of the complaints center around getting just a basic starting base up and running.
Which got me thinking, and I did some checking on Test.

The basic Generator produces 1000 energy and costs 225000.
The basic "Control" unit produces 50 control and costs 150000.
The basic worktable needs...20 energy and 10 control.

So the other 980 energy and 40 control are wasted. Even with the advanced worktable, that's 70 energy and 35 control total, well within limits.

It would make a lot of sense it seems to introduce a "starter" version of the generators and control items.
50k for 100 energy and 75k for 25 energy. Both of these would be 1x1 sized items, which would fit nicely into 2x1 "starting" versions of their respective rooms. Halving the cost on both those rooms, because they are now half size seems sensible. While we're at it, let's do the same for workshops and teleport rooms, both only taking one of their respective items.

What does all that give us?

Well, a "working" base, with sufficient power and control for the basic worktable, would cost:
75k + 50k + 50k = for the rooms,
50k + 75k + 25k = for the equipment,
for a total of 325k for a working base.

In other words, a 15 man SG needs only 25k to have a base they can start making stuff with.

This doesn't remove the big bases as something to really have to work towards for big SG's (though whether that's still overdone is open for debate), but allows a small SG to very quickly get an operating base up and running with the minimum of fuss.

Now before I start, I want to make it clear I understand everyone's experiences are subjective, everyone plays different amounts, etc. etc. But:

My SG is composed of four RL friends and our alts. That's it. I think we have seven toons in it total currently. We play an hour or two a night, not always the same nights, sometimes more on weekends. Our highest toon of any of us is 25, and we've all been playing since beta. We're pretty much right slap bang in the middle of the "casual players" category.

So far we have a nicely decorated entrance room, a workshop with desk, and an empty control room. And about 125k or so prestige saved up. It's been what, a month and a half tops, since release? And we're what, a quarter, halfway to a functional base? I really can't see the problem.

I intend to be playing CoX for a long time. Been over a year and a half so far, and still loving it. Another year down the line, and you can bet that'll be one lovely base. Not the hugest thing in the world, obviously, but then we're only ever gonna have 4 (maybe 5) people in it at anyone time. How big a base do we need?

I can't help but feel that the thirty-six million prestige given to us for testing in beta has spoiled a hell of a lot of people - we've all seen the wonderful things we can have and do, and it's hard to not expect to have them now. But I don't expect everything now. I'm quite happy to 'earn' my base, a little bit at a time. I'll get much more satisfaction from it that way. Though again, I know I don't speak for everyone.

On the other hand, November does bring up a very good point. While I have no objections to working for my base, I do object to working for a base that does nothing worthwhile. Why have a medicenter if all it does is 25% of what the hospital does for free, for eveyone? How the hell is that beneficial? The zone teleporter is nice, but again, if it just dumps you into a load of enemies from a great height, that's not my idea of useful.

I don't have a problem with the idea of working for a functional base. If it takes several months, that's fine. I've been playing for eighteen and counting. I was going to be playing for those future months anyway. If I can get even more stuff for doing so, where's the downside? Naturally, I'd expect what I get after a multiple month wait to be something appropriate to that wait, and hopefully those kind of issues will be addressed. And my comments don't apply to decorative bases - if you purely want a base that you can hang out in, RP in, socialise in, whatever, then yeah, I don't see why you should have to wait several months for that - decorative rooms should be a hell of a lot cheaper. Certainly the decorations within them are cheap enough to be afforded by anyone with little concern for the old bank balance.

I've considered doing this sort of thing before, but I could never get the 2 RL friends I play with to really get on board with the idea (there were 5 of us, but 2 have got bored and stopped playing).

I'd like to try the slow ST - I put together an ice/storm controller who focuses primarily on slowing powers - between just those two sets I doubt any enemies would be going anywhere. Stick kinetic/psychic defenders, ice tanks and ice/ice blasters in there too and it you've got yourself a new arctic... :P

If anyone is actually interested in doing this, btw, PM me. I can start this on any server except infinity (that's where I normally play and I've run out of character slots there :P )

Here's the ice/storm and kin/psy builds I quickly put together (and I do mean quickly):

Ice/Storm Controller:
Level 1 --> Gale===>Acc(1)
Level 1 --> Block of Ice===>Acc(1) Acc(3) Hold(3) Hold(43)
Level 2 --> O2 Boost===>Heal(2) Heal(7) Heal(46)
Level 4 --> Snow Storm===>EndRdx(4) EndRdx(5) EndRdx(5) Slow(7) Slow(29) Slow(43
)
Level 6 --> Swift===>Run(6)
Level 8 --> Arctic Air===>EndRdx(8) EndRdx(9) EndRdx(9) Slow(11) Slow(29) Slow(4
2)
Level 10 --> Shiver===>Acc(10) Acc(11) EndRdx(13) EndRdx(13) Slow(15) Slow(15)
Level 12 --> Hover===>EndRdx(12)
Level 14 --> Fly===>EndRdx(14) EndRdx(31) Fly(34) Fly(34) Fly(34) Fly(42)
Level 16 --> Freezing Rain===>Rechg(16) Rechg(17) Rechg(17) Slow(19) Slow(19) Sl
ow(43)
Level 18 --> Health===>Heal(18) Heal(40) Heal(42)
Level 20 --> Stamina===>EndRec(20) EndRec(21) EndRec(21)
Level 22 --> Ice Slick===>EndRdx(22) Rechg(23) Rechg(23)
Level 24 --> Hurricane===>EndRdx(24) EndRdx(25) EndRdx(25)
Level 26 --> Glacier===>Acc(26) Acc(27) Hold(27) Hold(37)
Level 28 --> Assault===>EndRdx(28) EndRdx(31)
Level 30 --> Tactics===>EndRdx(30) EndRdx(31)
Level 32 --> Jack Frost===>Acc(32) Acc(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(33)
Level 35 --> Tornado===>EndRdx(35) EndRdx(36) Rechg(36) Rechg(36) DefDeBuf(37) D
efDeBuf(37)
Level 38 --> Vengeance===>DefBuf(38) Heal(39) TH_Buf(39) DefBuf(39) Heal(40) TH_
Buf(40)
Level 41 --> Hibernate===>Rechg(41)
Level 44 --> Frozen Armor===>EndRdx(44) EndRdx(45) EndRdx(45) DefBuf(45) DefBuf(
46) DefBuf(46)
Level 47 --> Ice Storm===>Rechg(47) Rechg(48) EndRdx(48) EndRdx(48)
Level 49 --> Ice Blast===>Acc(49) Acc(50) Dmg(50) Dmg(50)

-------------

Kinetics/Psychic Defender:
Level 1 --> Mental Blast===>Acc(1) Acc(9) Dmg(19) Dmg(37) Dmg(48)
Level 1 --> Siphon Power===>Acc(1) Acc(3) Rechg(5) EndRdx(40)
Level 2 --> Transfusion===>Acc(2) Acc(3) Heal(5) EndDrn(11)
Level 4 --> Psionic Lance===>Acc(4) Acc(7) Dmg(17) Dmg(25) Dmg(46)
Level 6 --> Siphon Speed===>Acc(6) Acc(7) Rechg(34) Rechg(36)
Level 8 --> Increase Density===>EndRdx(8) EndRdx(9)
Level 10 --> Psychic Scream===>Acc(10) Acc(11) Dmg(17) Dmg(19) Dmg(43)
Level 12 --> Speed Boost===>EndRdx(12) EndRdx(13) EndRec(13) EndRec(15)
Level 14 --> Hasten===>Rechg(14) Rechg(15) Rechg(36)
Level 16 --> Super Speed===>Run(16) Run(42)
Level 18 --> Inertial Reduction===>EndRdx(18)
Level 20 --> Telekinetic Blast===>Acc(20) Acc(21) Dmg(21) Dmg(37)
Level 22 --> Will Domination===>Acc(22) Acc(23) Dmg(23) Dmg(37) Dmg(46)
Level 24 --> Whirlwind===>EndRdx(24) EndRdx(25)
Level 26 --> Transference===>Acc(26) Acc(27) Rechg(27) Rechg(29) EndRec(34) EndR
ec(34)
Level 28 --> Psionic Tornado===>Acc(28) Acc(29) Dmg(31) Dmg(40) Dmg(43)
Level 30 --> Subdue===>Acc(30) Acc(31) Dmg(31) Dmg(40) Dmg(46)
Level 32 --> Fulcrum Shift===>Acc(32) Acc(33) Rechg(33) Rechg(33)
Level 35 --> Scramble Thoughts===>Acc(35) Acc(36)
Level 38 --> Psychic Wail===>Acc(38) Acc(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(43)
Level 41 --> Conserve Power===>Rechg(41) Rechg(42) Rechg(42)
Level 44 --> Temp Invulnerability===>EndRdx(44) DmgRes(45) DmgRes(45) DmgRes(45)
Level 47 --> Power Build Up===>Rechg(47) Rechg(48) Rechg(48) TH_Buf(50) TH_Buf(5
0)
Level 49 --> Repel===>EndRdx(49) EndRdx(50)

Going back to the original point of this thread (remember that?) I'm surprised no one else has noticed that the freak symbol looks a lot like a dagger in a circle - while it's obvioulsy descended from the anarchy icon, I don't think the dagger similarity is completely accidental...

Ah, parting is, as they say, such sweet sorrow. Happy for you, but a little moistness of the eyes and a lump in the throat for us as we wave goodbye.

[ QUOTE ]

As I hang up my cape, strap my swords to my sides, and look out across the skyline of Paragon City, I realize how much I will miss her, but I know that while she stays in my heart, she does not need me, for this is certainly one city that has no shortage of heroes!


[/ QUOTE ]

I protest! Quantity does not make up for quality. Always will there be times when you are needed. Remember, wherever your travels take you, there is always a place for you in Paragon.

Apart from Founders Falls and Peregrine Island, you can go pretty much anywhere you like in Paragon City if you're careful.

I've got from Atlas to the docks in Talos Island at level 6 before (where I met the guy who was sidekicking me up for a mission in Peregrine). You just have to be very careful about where you're going.

And also, those kamikaze exploding mobs damage other mobs if they're deceived. A good hit from them can take out other minions, and do severe damage to lt's and bosses. Yeah, you don't get the XP for 'em, but it can help to thin out an otherwise too-big-to-handle group in a mission.

I've done it twice so far, with two toons. It's certainly not difficult at all. We had only three people in each time.

1st time: lvl 15 AR/dev blaster, lvl 16 dark/dark defender, lvl 14 dark/reg scrapper (me). The CoT missions were hard, because a lot fo the mobs are dark resistant, and the lack of crowd control meant we sometimes got swamped. Took 5-6 hrs overall.

2nd: lvl 16 dark/dark defender, lvl 15 dark/regen scrapper, lvl 12 controller (me)(not SK'd). This was actually /much/ easier with the crowd control, even though the mobs were +2/3 lvls above me. 1 DO +acc takes away most of that level advantage. Took 4-5 hrs.


Highly agree on the need for crowd control - Tank or controller helps tremendously. Lower level players can contribute, too, as long as you're not relying on them to deal the damage or take it :P And the TF is comfortably doable with only three heroes.