The SuperTeam: Advanced Grouping [long]

Arcas_NA · 11-29-2004 09:30 AM

Lots of grouping guides out there say pretty much the same thing (I know, I wrote a few): Tanks must have provoke, defenders don't blast only heal, blasters to the back, etc. They preach the 'balanced team' and proper team make-up. After you've played CoH for awhile, you realize that most of this is really beginner knowledge. It's not wrong, but it is really just a form of pick-up group idiot proofing. Pick-up groups don't have the skill and experience with each other to truly excel, so it's sometimes best to throw the one-size-fits all grouping tactics on to them so that everyone doesn't run around totally lost.

Over in the real grouping world, things are a little different. Any type of group, when well played and coordinated, can be successful. No, tanks don't need provoke. Blasters can be successful with melee powers. Yes, defenders can blast. And believe it or not, people actually do slot enhancements other than damage and accuracy. A big part of it is thinking about the other things ATs and power types can do besides what we usually associate with them.

This guide is about those rare teams that approach grouping not as an occasional distraction, but as something they do 100% of the time. These are groups that work together almost all of the time. Alone, each would be considered gimp, but together they form some of the most powerful teams in the game. Thus, I call them SuperTeams.

If you or your supergroup has a SuperTeam, post some of your stories here, we'd like to hear them.

The Supergroup vs. SuperTeams

There's one thing I've noticed about Paragon City. The vast majority of heroes are solo builds. That doesn't mean they aren't group players, but they are solo built heroes that just happen to group. I've met very few true group built characters. Most supergroups (the true organization of group characters) are made up of nothing more than solo builds that just happen to hang out together.

SuperTeams are different. They are made of players that play almost exclusively with each other. They probably have the same costumes/names, just like supergroups. But that's only the beginning.

Collaborative Builds

Solo built heroes of the world think they have to do everything themselves. Not only because of the "super hero-ness" of being able to do big damage, AND tank, AND heal, AND buff, AND control. And thus the tank complains because he can't do big damage when he could just get a scrapper friend. Or the blaster who is angry because enemies run away from his Blizzard when one controller is the easy solution. But it also because a lot of people honestly don't trust anyone else to take care of critical areas for them, especially in a pick-up team.

SuperTeams do exactly that. They defer, what many players consider to be, critical areas to their teammates. Slightly gimping themselves to create a stronger group overall. True group builds are built to group with one specific group. They aren't one-size fits all, ready to fit in to any random pick-up group that the universe spits out.

Buffing and the Rule of Leadership: In most SuperTeams, everyone takes leadership powers. Only new players take leadership powers solo, and then come to the boards to complain about how weak they are. They just don't understand two concepts. First, leadership is a group-based pool. Its effectiveness increases as you add more team members and greatly increases as you add more team members with the same leadership power. Everyone that says leadership is too weak and demands a increase, has to take a moment to think about how even small increases will affect an 8 defender team with shared leadership. Leadership works great, when you get your teammates to take it with you.

The second concept is the rate of damage over time. People are found of mentioning how they only get 1.5 damage or something from assault, and thus it is weak. But how much is that 1.5 over an entire fight? Over an entire mission? Over a few months? That 1.5 grows over time into lots of free damage that you would not have had otherwise. Now think about that rate over yourself and 7 other teammates? What if they ALL had assault as well? I'll take free damage, no matter how small, any day of the week. If you have room in your build, and can manage the near insignificant endurance cost, I don't see why you would not take leadership powers. If your 500 point attack is only boosted by 1, you can now one-shot a 501 HP enemy.

All this relates to buffs, and SuperTeams are always looking to be buffed as much as possible and as often as possible (on the flip-side SuperTeams are always looking for buffs but not heals, sorry empaths. SuperTeams just don't take damage all that much).

Say you were in a SuperTeam where a kinetic defender kept the team damaged buffed at all times. You'd probably be close to the damage cap and many people would say adding assault on top of this is a waste. But what's the missing part? What's missing is the fact that the team is near the cap because most heroes slot tons of damage enhancements. If you can get close to caps using mostly outside buffs, then it frees up enhancement slots for other powers, and/or it frees up slots for enhancements other than accuracy, damage, and endurance reduction. The reason this is very important should become clear later.

Single Powers to Rule them All: Most people hear my leadership nonsense, and the first question is quick to arise. "How can you possibly find room in builds for leadership powers?" The answer is the key component of collaborative builds. You build each hero to fill in the gaps of the others. Here are three big examples:

<ul type="square">[*]Travels: It should be obvious, but if you group with the same teammembers all the time, why does everyone need their own travel powers? One teammember with fly, personal force field, and recall friend can take care of the traveling for the entire team. Not to mention powers like group fly, inertia reduction, speed boost, siphon speed, etc. Leaving the taxi duties to a teammember frees up 1-2 power slots on most builds.

[*]Hasten?: In solo world, players tend to believe that 1 acc, 5 dam is now the "norm" and anything below that is "totally gimp." People could easily load up a few recharge enhancements, but that will take them away from that ideal set-up. So through their own actions they create the need for Hasten, first of the "must-have" powers. Superteams just throw accelerate metabolism and/or speed boost at that problem. Do you really need hasten if you're speed boosted 100% of the time?

[*]Stamina?: The same can be said for stamina. How many people do you know that actually seriously invests in endurance reduction enhancements? Probably, not many (that whole 1 acc, 5 dam mind-set again). So, again, through their own actions, people form this need to get stamina. Those same two powers, acc. meta and speed boost also work great in this area as well. Also key are recovery aura and ad. boost. How much space would you have in your build if you didn't have to touch the fitness pool at all?[/list]
In SuperTeams, one or two members can take "the hit" in power choices in order to make the entire team more efficient and effective. The key is early planning for group choices for the entire team.

Building to Theme, the true power of SuperTeams

Collaborative builds was the beginning, now it continues by working together on powers and enhancement choices. SuperTeams are the minority groups that take advantage of one of the key concepts in City of Heroes: With very few exceptions, everything in the game stacks. To illustrate this, let's have a discussion of teams built around specific enhancement types.

Endurance Reduction: This isn't really a team, but I just wanted to make a quick comment about end. reduction: Use it! Powerleveling is a factor of two things, increasing damage while reducing downtime. Everyone increases damage through enhancements, split teaming, underhunting and tons of other tactics. But hardly anyone gives a thought to reducing downtime. It doesn't matter if you can do big damage if you have to rest after every fight. Just one endurance SO in the big end powers can make a true difference. So seriously think about it... until your teammates get speed boost/transference/acc. meta/recovery aura/etc.

Damage: My damage SuperTeam would focus on damage-over-time (DOT). This means fire. A fire/fire tank, two fire/fire blasters (one melee bias, one ranged bias), one or two fire/kinetic controllers, and round it out with spines/claw scrappers and defenders kinetic or empathy (for recovery aura and adrenaline boost). Everyone takes assault/tactics. Everyone slots tons of damage in the area powers, even the controller (you won't have to hold for long). The blasters are right in there with the tank using their melee aura powers (don't be scared, it's called aggro management, let the tank do his work and pace your attacks). This team will live at the damage cap constantly, but that's ok. They're theme is doing tons of damage before they run out of end and/or the enemy can mount a true counter. In this case, it's better to be at the cap than close. Stick this group in trial zones or split team underhunting in hazard zones. Stacking damage is one of the more basic SuperTeams, but its controlled chaos and pure leveling speed can not be ignored.

End. Drain: Endurance draining in City of Heroes is the classic example of "bring-a-friend." It becomes SOO easy when you have a team working together to do it. The trick to end. drain is to focus your enhancements on the big draining powers to get the best effect. The best end drain powers are Short Circuit, Zapp, Thunderous Blast, and Power Sink. Next in line, but also worthy of heavy enhancement are Transfusion and Transference. My simple end drain team would be two blasters, one elec/elec and one elec/energy (for power boost and others). And two defenders, one kinetic/elec and one force field/elec. Maybe with an Ice Tank thrown in if you have to have one.

Slow: You knew it when that first group of Valzilok ambushed you in Galaxy City, slow is extremely powerful when it is stacked together. Yes, even in this post Caltrop-10% movement-fix world. Team includes Ice/Ice Tankers, Ice/Ice-Devices Blasters, Ice/Storm Controllers, Spine Scrappers, and Storm-Dark/Psychic Blast Defenders. Works in many ways like the damage group. Let everyone stick close together to take max effect of the aura/area powers. And please slot your slow enhancements! Protection? Chilling Embrace, Spine Burst, Quills, multiple Ice Patches, etc.... Perma 90% enemy slow is some strong damage mitagation. Form this group if you want to blow in like a december wind and destroy everything before it can mount a true counter or escape.

Knockback: An enemy can't hurt you while flying through the air! Team includes Assault-Energy/Energy Blasters, Storm-FF-Kinetic/Psychic-Energy Defenders, Gravity-Mind/Storm Controllers and if you have any melees Battleaxe-Stone-SS Tank (with Whirlwind). Make sure the controllers avoid any powers that physically hold an enemy (mind and illusion are ok), they just give a pesky resistance to knockback. Use knockback enhancements if you prefer, but remember your sniper powers and the effects of range on this team. This isn't the most efficient team (no holds/low area effect efficiency) or the easiest to work with. But if you like a challenge, nothing is more fun than a screen full of enemies flying all over the place!

Defense Reduction: Samurai/Ninja and Knight themed supergroups should be ashamed if defense reduction isn't a key part of their diet. The main members of this team are Broadsword/Katana Scrappers and Rad/Rad Defenders. Defense reduction works like accuracy, but with a few differences. It doesn't help your initial attack, you have to hit on your own to score the defense debuff. It is temporary. Each defense debuff attack does its own defense debuff, and they stack with your other attacks, and the attacks done by your teammates (up to a cap of course). In other words, accuracy enhancements help you personally, defense debuffs helps your entire team. You just need that first shot to start it off, then villans are kept in a crippling chain with a dangerously lowered defense. I'm sure you've heard the stories of the 8-man Rad/Rad defender teams and what they can do (even after the nerf). Be afraid! Also, think about the effect of just one d. reduction rad/rad defender thrown in with the Damage team.

To-Hit Debuff: Finally the one team that can trully say that the best defense is a good offense. To-Hit debuff works exactly like defense reduction. Score a strike, and it lowers their accuracy. This is the core domain of dark powers. Key components of the team are Dark/Dark Defenders and Dark Scrappers. Other notable debuff powers: Smoke, and Smoke Grenade (after a recent patch, Intimidate, Invoke panic, and Force bubble do not take to-hit debuff). This team of the night can and needs to unleash a constant offensive fury to keep their enemies near the debuff cap. Also, consider what happens if you combine the defense reduc. team with this team. Maybe a Ninja/Knight team with Dark Mages to help. Now you have one team with the ability to artificially bring tough enemies down a few levels, by combining both debuffs. An Earthquake controller would fit well with this dual team too.

Defense Buff and Resist Damage: Every once in awhile, someone asks how to form a team to experience all the 'content'. This is the exact team I suggest. A team totally built around defense. Invulnerability Tanks, Inv/SR Scrappers, Blasters with Cloaking Device, Tough, and Weave, Illusion/FF Controllers, and nicely enhanced Emp-FF/Dark defenders. Flashy? Not really. This doesn't have the flair of the damage or knockback teams, but it makes up for it in effectiveness. A defensive focused team can methodically grind through any mission. Task forces, trials, and archvillians are nothing. This would be the one team left standing during invasions while everyone else is getting taxied from the hospital. If you hate debt, hate death, and hate really working hard to avoid both... here you go.

Disorient: Yes, disorient is still buggy. But the extent people avoid disorient, boggles my mind. Here is a list of mag 3 disorient powers: Beanbag, Taser, Stun, Flashfire, Cosmic Burst, Cobra Strike, Eagles Claw, and Knockout Blow. All you have to do is chain two of those to perma-stun any boss. Then there are tons of mag 2 and mag 1 powers that can also come into play if your team works together. Notable team members include Energy Tankers, Assault/Dev Blasters, and Martial Art Scrappers (also useful are FF/Storm Defenders and Earth/Fire/Mind Controllers). Besides the tanker, no one really has to invest that much into the team, since most power groups only have one or two disorient powers to enhance. Just add a few more slots for accuracy and disorient and there you go. Keep bosses out of the fight, disorient entire groups of minions for damage mitigation. And my favorite, alpha strike troublesome enemies (like sorcerors and raider engineers for instance) to take their buffs completely out of the battle equation. Having trouble with enemies sleep, disorient, or holding you... then do it to them first!

Range: Range is arguably the most underrated Power-10 enhancement. A team built around range requires you to flip everything you know about team tactics on its head. To do things in a totally different way. You get the most bang from range by using it with power sets that have a large base range. So it's important to know that the longest range power sets in the game are Psychic Blast, Mind Control, and Assault Rifle. Ranged strategy usually has three steps. One, if defensive heavy melee heroes are present, their job is to hold aggro, disorient, knockdown, or do anything they can to delay the enemy from chasing the ranged heroes. Two, controllers/defenders use their 'location' powers to either lay it down in the middle of an enemy group or to place it in such a way that they have to run through it to get to you (location powers take range too). Even better if the controllers have enough range in their area holds to simply hold the group without getting hit. Third, the range fighters do their best to super jump/fly around to stay out of range, while strategically blasting the enemies. It's not as easy as it sounds, but it's a lot of fun when executed correctly. Think about the effects of range enhancements in powers with high base ranges. The recently fixed Tar Patch has a base range of 120!! It now slows enemies properly and recharges fast enough to lay down a second before the first is gone. The snipes Moonbeam and Psionic Lance start at a base of 175! Have you ever ran experiments on with range on Teleport Foe? Most people label range as useless since they only try to use it in a solo setting. Three blasters in a triangle formation, trading the aggro of a boss, and outranging him 100%, is going to win every night of the week. Think about ways the new AoE "fear" changes are a benefit to this team. Sit down with your team and think about innovative ways to use range.

Pure Teams:

Pure teams are SuperTeams that consist mostly of one AT. They are usually done in one of two ways. First is identical stacking, every teammember is completely identical to the others, down to the enhancements. As an example, I remember a team of blaster robots that said they were all from the same series of robot from a factory, so they were all identical. The second method is to try for team balance, starting with a one AT team, but choosing powers in a way that each member can fill a different role. Let one member take many defensive power pool powers and be the "tank." Others can focus on damage dealing, or travel powers, or buffs/heals from the medicine pool. It's an attempt to get a psuedo-balanced group while maintaining the benefits of everyone being the same AT.

Tankers: If the thought of an all-tanker team makes you cringe... then you have never played an offensive tanker. Including two or three fire tanks will do wonders for offense. Multiple Ice tankers can create their own slow debuff group. Stacked Chilling Embraces/Ice Patches is a nightmare for villians. Multiple Energy/SS tankers can keep entire trial zone sized groups of enemies stunned. An all-tanker team, even if totally offensively focused, will still have the benefits of higher tanker hit points. If you don't want to go full-out, a single kinetic defender will significantly help this team.

Scrappers: The same can be done for scrappers. Stack Invulnerability for a strong defensive team or Dark powers for an offensively defensive team. Multiple Spines scrappers create a higher damaging slow team than the tankers. Multiple claw/regens can run through hazard zones zerging anything in their path. The swords (broad/katana) create a strong defense debuff team. Or a martial arts team for perma-disorients. Again, you can't count out the extreme effect that a single kinetic defender will have on this team.

Defenders: Easily the most famous of the pure teams. All-defender supergroups exist on every server of the game. And for good reason, they are extremely powerful teams. Multiple kinetics are built for fast leveling, potentially outpacing even all-blaster teams. Radiation teams are the kings of debuffing, tough groups of purples are nothing to them. Any team that has more than two force fielders, simply will not die... ever. Dark defender teams can have impressive offensive while placing only second to force fielders in the "tough-to-kill" category. An Empathy team almost sounds redundant, but in later levels, stacking clear minds, fortitudes, and recovery auras, can all come in handy (ever seen a 100% Whirlwind taking no endurance because it's powered by multiple RAs? Fun, fun). A Storm team can go so many different directions: knockbacks, slow, debuffs, etc. All that before we even begin to talk about stacking the highest leadership bonuses for all the ATs.

Blasters: Yes, all-blaster teams do exist and they work just fine. Some make use of range. Some simply quickly demolish their foes with an awesome initial strike. Others stack bonuses for max-effect. Ice slow teams, Energy knockback teams, Assault range teams, Fire DoT teams, Elec End Drain teams... these are all examples. In the end, whether identical teams or a balanced blaster team, this team will always have the base-blaster advantage of being able to outdamage most other teams. In general, those heroes in all-blaster teams that I've watched and talked too are all experts at killing and killing fast... because they know what happens if they don't.

Controllers: The rarest of the pure teams, pure controller teams follow the exact progression as controllers themselves. After the slow start, you can't deny the pure power of this team once they reach the 30s. Once they cross that barrier, the team reaches that magical point where they not only have holds, defender powers, and strong leadership bonuses. But also a large army of pets completely at their disposal. I have never personally seen a pure-controller SuperTeam, but I'm in awe at the possibilities.

A simple idea for an early contoller team is to work a few members around confuse. A couple Mind controllers with an Illusion and a Ice Controller. With so many confusions going around, it greatly reduces the amount of total damage you need to do for the same experience.

Buffing: The Balance of Powers and Enhancements

The Defense group is my favorite example of balanced buffing. For a solo example: I have a energy tanker on Infinity with 'three' invulnerability powers total. All three only have one enhancement slot. The powers are Resist Physical Damage, Dull Pain, and Invincibility, the only one that matters. Invincibility gives you a defense boost for each enemy at melee range. So when the tank is in the middle of a huge trial zone group, he tends not to get hit at all. The outside buff provided by invincibility totally dwarfs the fact that he has hardly any defensive enhancement.

Going back to the defense group, if you are a tanker that is buffed 100% of the time with force fields, then you don't need to collect the tons of defense enhancements like most tanks. And it works both ways, a force fielder in a team where everyone has a decent amount of personal defense, does not have to six slot every bubble.

So that's the paradox, the defensive team has so many outside group defense powers and buffs that is frees them up to give heavy slotting to their offensive powers. And it works the same way for many other SuperTeams.

Beyond Communication: Experience

Communication is the key component of a good team, always. Communicating to plan tactics, talking about what went wrong, etc. Good leaders even know how to throw out casual bits to keep everyone interested, or to completely change the bad mood after a group wipe-out so that no one leaves in disgust.

Pick-up groups have to have communication. You don't know your team members' experience with the game, or experience with different power sets. So you have to literally tell them to wait for the controller holds before they unleash the Fire Rain or why the unyielding or invincibility tank needs lots of enemies around them. Most importantly, team members don't know each other. Good communication gives everyone a little more confidence in each other, making everyone more likely to stay calm and do their job as opposed to running for the door at the first yellow HP bar.

In SuperTeams, experience replaces communication. That's not to say that they don't talk, but they rarely talk about tactics/strategy. You'll rarely hear a superteam say, "Ok, snipe the boss first while the rad/rad defender debuffs the lieutenant." They don't say it because everyone already knows it. This blaster might usually start a battle by sniping the boss, so everyone automatically clicks on him to see what he is targeting. They have worked with the defender enough to know what the radiation anchors look like and as such they know how to avoid them. The moment the controllers begin the holds, the blasters are right behind with the area attacks. Ranged focused blasters are constantly 'glued' to Repel or Hurricane defenders. Confused and mezzed enemies are immediately identified and left alone.

These are all traits of teams that have such a high level of experience with each other, that once the battle begins they already know the next five things that will happen. Because they've done it thousands of times before.

Another aspect is trust. In SuperTeams, heroes fully know and expect their teammates to jump in and save their hide, constantly. There's no need to worry, once the tank hits red... BOOM! ... there goes the absorb pain. Automatic. If things are going bad for the scrapper, he knows to not run because a kinetics transfusion will be coming soon.

Members of pick-up teams spend so much time wondering if they can trust their teammates that it hurts efficiency and the group overall. I can speak from experience since I lead a lot of pick-up teams. Half my time is spent leading the group and contributing with battles. But in a newly formed pick-up team, almost an equal part of my attention is also spent watching everyone else. Noticing their fighting styles, offering tactics suggestions, checking the map to see if everyone is keeping up, keeping an eye out for leechers and people not pulling their weight, and sometimes even managing the team seek window and sending tells to other potential teammembers. Once I have a little more experience with the team, the middle of a task force for instance, I can stop worrying about most of that stuff and become a better contributor.

I know this is all fairly obvious, but it's one of the most crucial components of the SuperTeam. Lots of players have completely given up on pick-up teams after having a few bad experiences (I hope you give them another try). They already know the value of teaming with someone that knows your playstyle very well. Many times it's the difference between success and a group hospital trip.

Not interested in SuperTeams, you will be

Most people that work in groups always want to manage the weaknesses. The cliche phrase of this is "We need a healer!"

SuperTeams aren't about weaknesses, they are about the strengths. And making those strengths so powerful that the weaknesses just don't matter that much. Do you think the slow team or the to-hit debuff team cares about needing more defense heroes? Having enemies slowed by 90%, is defense. Six slotted attacks that all debuff accuracy, is defense.

That's the SuperTeam: picking one theme and focusing on that theme to such an extent, that little else matters.

You might not have a SuperTeam now, or want to form one, but think about this: Do you want to face a SuperTeam in battle?

Do you want to fight a team that can drain your endurance moments into the fight? Or a team that slows you so severly that you can't even escape? Or a team that you can't even get in range to fight? Or an entire team of mezzing, stunning, holding, enemies? Or a team that debuffs your accuracy so much that hitting them is near impossible?

You might not want to deal with this now. But I can guarantee that the people over on the City of Villians board have long since taken notice and begun preparing...

Mr_Estonia · 11-29-2004 10:31 AM

Excellent post and thoughts. I have a pseudo-super duo. I play a Energy blaster and my wife an FF/energy defender. The focus on knockback is amazing.

Murgatroid · 11-29-2004 10:50 AM

All the founders of our SG are as close to a Super team as I have seen. We all lvled together from the single digit lvls, and planned each others powers based on the team need, nto the individual need. As people have left and joined the game, the original Everynighters Super team has changed a bit, but we always try and add new members who believe this strategy whole heartedly. it is truely a site to see a team that's built around each other. By the time we hit our thirties, we were practically unbeatable in the standard missions. Even Respec proved little challenge. very good guide with lots of insights.

Flafty · 11-29-2004 11:14 AM

Well done sir. I tip my hat to you.

**GUARDIAN**
Assault Ohm - Elec/Sonic Corruptor
Deadly Ohm - Elec/Will Brute
Invisible Ohm - Elec/Eng Stalker
Master Ohm - Elec/Elc Dominator

StabbinPayne · 11-29-2004 11:48 AM

What, no mention of rad defenders in the slow or attack debuff Theme Teams? Lingering Radiation (nearly max slow with only 2 +3 slow SO's, over a very large AE radius, and lasts for 30s) and Radiation Infection (-90 to -100% acc debuff when fully slotted, in a moderate to large AE, no need to hit to put it up, stays up until you drop the toggle or target is defeated) are probably the best slow and attack debuffs in the game!

A further note on slow, I think I remember reading a dev comment somewhere that slow enhancements do NOT affect the -recharge aspect of slow, only the -speed aspect. Anyone know whether or not this is true?

Scaredycrowe · 11-29-2004 03:48 PM

This is most excellent stuff! It describes my SG on Freedom to a tee!

VicVolta · 11-30-2004 08:50 AM

I play in a very tight supergroup so I recognize some of what you're saying, but I must disagree with your build strategy.

[ QUOTE ]
SuperTeams do exactly that. They defer, what many players consider to be, critical areas to their teammates. Slightly gimping themselves to create a stronger group overall. True group builds are built to group with one specific group. They aren't one-size fits all, ready to fit in to any random pick-up group that the universe spits out.

[/ QUOTE ]
So what happens when your empath defender loses his internet connection for a week? Or goes on vacation? Or gets tired of his hero? Or gets tired of the entire game and quits? What do you do when the team taxi isn't available? Or the rad defender who loudly claimed that nobody needed to take Hasten because he had it covered with AM?

If you have a supergroup that can always move in the lockstep described here, more power to you. The vast majority of people will find it impossible to command the precision and unity of a Quake clan in a game where all conflict is player-versus-environment.

One thing I strongly agree with (I'm having trouble finding it now among the huge blobs of text) is that fast leveling is about reducing downtime. A flexible team that can roll with the loss of a few mates will have less downtime than one which must dance around the absence of a vital member.

Arcas_NA · 12-03-2004 10:53 AM

Thanks for the positive comments, I appreciate it.

[ QUOTE ]
I have a pseudo-super duo. I play a Energy blaster and my wife an FF/energy defender. The focus on knockback is amazing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that does sound like fun. On one hand you have double energy torrents, double power pushes, double explosive blasts and novas.

Next you have the force field knockbacks. A few recharges and range in Force bolt turns it into a machine-gun knockbacker. Heavy end reduction enhancement and stamina can take Repulsion Field near perma. I don't even want to think about Repulsion Bomb and Force Bubble. My head would start spinning.

And if all that wasn't enough... you have force field defense. Both of you probably haven't died in months. Outstanding team.

[ QUOTE ]
As people have left and joined the game, the original Everynighters Super team has changed a bit, but we always try and add new members who believe this strategy whole heartedly. it is truely a site to see a team that's built around each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt. I get a big kick out of watching identical teams. The constant bolts of a energy blaster team, the sounds of eights assault rifles going off, or the constant spray of damage numbers when a few fire tanks get together.

The biggest thrill for me is seeing those super efficient teams that hunt in the hazard/trial zones. These guys will "hit" a group with maybe one or two strikes and it's over. Usually they hardly even stop moving. One strike and they are already looking for the next. Just working their way down the street BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, leaving huge path of enemies behind them. I will always be impressed by those teams.

[ QUOTE ]
What, no mention of rad defenders in the slow or attack debuff Theme Teams? Lingering Radiation (nearly max slow with only 2 +3 slow SO's, over a very large AE radius, and lasts for 30s) and Radiation Infection (-90 to -100% acc debuff when fully slotted, in a moderate to large AE, no need to hit to put it up, stays up until you drop the toggle or target is defeated) are probably the best slow and attack debuffs in the game!

[/ QUOTE ]

Bah, I knew I was going to slip up somewhere. I remember someone jumped on me when I wrote the Perez guide, because I forgot to specifically mention claw scrappers.

I don't know if I'm ready to call it the best slow debuff in the game. Spines scrappers and Ice Controllers may have a few words about that. But yeah, the rad/rad is a huge boost to both teams and I shouldn't have forgotten about them.

But come on, you gotta give me credit for including Ice tanks with the end drain team.

[ QUOTE ]
A further note on slow, I think I remember reading a dev comment somewhere that slow enhancements do NOT affect the -recharge aspect of slow, only the -speed aspect. Anyone know whether or not this is true?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I have heard as well. There doesn't seem to be any way to enhance the -recharge effect. So I guess the best we can do is to just stack more powers for the base -recharge. On that note, what happened to all the Psychic Blast defenders. I just don't see them that often these days.

[ QUOTE ]
So what happens when your empath defender loses his internet connection for a week? Or goes on vacation? Or gets tired of his hero? Or gets tired of the entire game and quits? What do you do when the team taxi isn't available? Or the rad defender who loudly claimed that nobody needed to take Hasten because he had it covered with AM?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at me. Right now, I'm not in any SuperTeams. Most of my RL friends that played CoH have moved on to other things. That's life.

I think I lump all the SuperTeam stuff with the phrase: "If it was easy, everyone would do it."

I don't believe it's feasible for every team out there to build around each other. But there are groups of real life friends, and extremely coordinated supergroups that can pull it off.

But having said that, I don't think every team needs to go full out. Even teams where everyone has their own travel powers, and everyone has Hasten/Stamina, can still choose complementary power sets. And can still choose similar powers/enhancements for stacking.

Everyone can't maintain the true SuperTeam, but just about every supergroup can still use some of these concepts to become a better team.

Arcas_NA · 12-15-2004 09:40 AM

Time to keep you updated on recent Superteam activity:

Radiation Defenders: First and foremost, check out the excellent discussion/project of Radation Defenders by TopDoc (Freedom).

Illusion/Rad Controllers: Based off of TopDoc's project, comes this controller team. (Champion)

Illusion Controllers: The Benders of Light, another all-illusion group exists on Triumph.

Assault Rifle Blasters: I don't know how active the Riflemen are today, but they used to be a pure assault/dev group, that changed to assault/any. If you've never seen an assault rifle group, then you owe it to yourself to watch videos on their site. Check out the ways they combine powers, use range to their advantage, and stack Full Autos for max carnage. (Freedom)

All Defender Supergroups: Protector, Liberty, Victory, Triumph.

Special mention goes to Defenders of the Apocalypse on Victory, an offender all-defender group that also uses combined leadership and combined travel powers.

Scrapper/Tanker: Frontline is an scrapper/tanker group over on Liberty.

All-Tanker: In a similar vein, here is info on a pure tanker team forming on Champion. (In other news, anyone have a link to the tanker supergroup discussions on the tanker forums from a few months back?)

Dark/Dark Defender Gatherings: Triumph and Protector

Lastly, I caught a peek at an all-kinetic supergroup while playing on Virtue, running around with perma-speed boost and increase density, mowing everything down. Anyone know anything about this group? They all have similar costumes and "Espresso" in front of their names.

Skydance · 12-16-2004 06:19 AM

Good stuff, very well done.

My Supergroup does this since months, we build themed groups, with slotting and selecting powers with in mind what the other picks. We're only 3-4 though, so we have to work with a smaller range.

Something you might want to include into your guide, is preparation.
When we plan new characters, a new team, we always make sure what our goal is: Do we want to consume as much of the given game content as possible ?

If the answer is yes (and for us it is), this means missions, TF, Trials, and AV and Monster fighting.

It helps here of course to have some more knowledge of the game. What damage types to expect. What status effect to deal with (like for example... could this team take out Psy Clockie King, how will they fare against Anti Matter) and so on.

We plan around this, like, do we have enough healing, enough debuffs, how we deal with Psy damage, will be have enough dps to defeat Madame of Mystery when we meet her.

My point is, when planning a team, plan to be able to do as much of the game content as possible... think scenarios through like "Ok, what would this team need to beat Infernal, how will we be able to deal with Master Illusionists, do we have enough to deal with multiple Mezzing bosses, what do we need to do Sewers Trial" and so on.

If you are already planning ahead, building upon each others strenghts, I think it couldn't hurt to not lock yourself out from specific content. And the more people you have, the better you can cover every aspect the game throws at you. Just try to cover as many variables and scenarios you can think of.

Obviously, it helps a ton already having a a higher level character, and having fought many things, so you know a bit of what to expect. Knowledge is the key afterall.

Just my suggestions though

DrLazarus · 12-16-2004 08:21 AM

Very well done Arcas. Superb guide and well thought out.

Dr. Lazarus.

WasabiPeanut · 12-28-2004 12:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Assault Rifle Blasters: I don't know how active the Riflemen are today, but they used to be a pure assault/dev group, that changed to assault/any. If you've never seen an assault rifle group, then you owe it to yourself to watch videos on their site. Check out the ways they combine powers, use range to their advantage, and stack Full Autos for max carnage. (Freedom)

[/ QUOTE ]

The Riflemen aren't dead, but lately we've been running on life support. There's been a change in management (a totally benign one), and expect a big special SG-relaunch after the beginning of 2005. If anyone has any cool ideas for said relaunch, let me know. I've thought of some things, but I'm completely open to suggestions (and, just to head questions off at the pass, by relaunch, I mean that inactive characters are going to be purged and we're going to be more actively recruiting and running our hunts again).

- Jason
Lucy McCain, AR/Dev/Mun lvl 50, Freedom
Professor Gamma, Rad/Rad lvl 33, Freedom
Brrr Freez-O Ice/EM lvl 36, Freedom
Sssmash SS/EA/Shark lvl 49, Freedom
Even Worse Thugs/Dark, lvl 38, Freedom
Too many lower alts to mess with noting

Arcas_NA · 04-02-2005 07:52 AM

Since this post hasn't seen light for a few months, here's my official "the arena is coming soon" bump.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. So many Supergroups tell members how to name their characters, how to set up their costumes, and what colors to use. But a precious few tell their members which powers to take and which enhancements to use.

Every Supergroup in the game right now has the ability to blow through invincible missions and dominate the arena if they want too.

It all comes down to a little planning, preperation, and teamwork. It really is just that simple.

Tiger_Bomb · 04-04-2005 12:16 PM

This is an awesome guide.

I primarily play with my wife, in a duo, so this isn't completely applicable, but still handy. I have friends in an sg that is testing the all Rad theory of Superteams, and I've watched them in action. It's an amazingly scary sight. You think "But they're so specialized, they can't.... Oh. But those were purples, they can't.... Oh."

Good stuff!

Rebel_NA · 04-04-2005 01:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you or your supergroup has a SuperTeam, post some of your stories here, we'd like to hear them.

[/ QUOTE ]

It all started when I got to thinking about the Natural Origin and how it would appy to the CoH Super Hero world. Just what exactly could a truly Natural character do, I asked myself. Well, long story short, it led my regular AlphA Strike team mates and me to create a semi-role play team called Rooks' Gambit. In order to create the illusion of regular, non-super government agents we have limited ourselves to Invuln/Super Str Tankers, Assault Rifle/Devices Blasters, and Martial Arts/Super Reflex Scrappers.
Currently, the team consists of 2 Tankers, 2 Scrappers, and 4 Blasters. The key to our success is Teamwork. As you stated in your guide, since we have so many overlapping ATs that are always working together, we made training up a level a group effort. We all discuss who should take which powers and what will enhance the group. For instance:
<ul type="square">[*]Healing - because of our self-imposed restrictions, we have no defenders to provide healing. To work around this, the Scrappers and most of the Blasters have taken Aid Other from the Medicine pool.[*]Blaster Attacks - Since we have so many AR/Dev Blasters, we have split the various powers up among them. This ensures that The Team will be able to have all of the great powers that are available in both power pools. This has made us very effective with layered attacks and suitable defenses for our backline troops.[*]Leadership - since it seemed ineffective for the Tankers to take a heal power from the Medicine Pool, they (and one of the Scrappers) have been taking the powers from Leadership Pool. After some experimenting we have determined that our stacked Assault is adding a noticeable increase in the damage for all attacks. While the amount added is relatively small, it works out to be, literally, over a thousand extra points of damage over the course of a mission. At our current level (14-16) that is certainly nothing to sneeze at![*]Travel - one blaster has Teleport and Recall Friend. He heads to the mission while the team heads to contacts and stocks up on any supplies we may need. As everyone finishes he 'ports them to the mission. This freed up one--and in several cases two--power that the rest of the team to could use more effectively for attacks or pool powers.[/list]
Our normal tactics consist of the Tankers rounding up a large group. Once the bad guys are completely locked onto the Tankers, two Blasters hit the group with Smoke Grenades and M30 Grenades, the other two then follow up with Buckshot. Once the mob is softened up, the Scrappers swoop in and take out the lieutenants while the Blasters all concentrate fire on any bosses. Any bad guys that break away from the mob to try and hit the Blasters are immediately caught up in Caltrops (carried by one blaster) and Web Grenades (carried by two of the Blasters). The Blasters then keep up their regular attacks and take turns hitting any snared baddies with one attack each. Any Lt.s or Bosses that break away from the main mob are quickly locked down with layered Web Grenades and dispatched by the Scrappers, who act as combination head hunters and mobile defense.

It took us about twelve levels to really get the hang of how to make everything mesh right, but we have gotten a pretty good handle on it. We have gotten so good at it that we hardly ever have to dispense any healing. Rooks Gambit are about to embark on the Cavern of Transcendence Trial and I really look forward to seeing how well we perform. The heroes certainly arent perfect, and we will definitely be doing the Respec TF to make some changes, but we have learned a lot about what works well and what doesnt. In fact, we are so confident in our team abilities that we have decided to specialize in doing all the TFs and Trials, rather than trying to hit all the story arcs.

Against the CoH AI we are just about unstoppable (well, for level 16, anyway) but I have no idea how well our team would do in an Arena environment.

Calling Justice Home:
Mr. Unstoppable -- lvl 50 Inv/EM Tanker
Nyhte Stryker -- lvl 50 Dark/Dark Defender
Cavalry. -- lvl 50 Kat/SR Scrapper
Howlin' Max -- lvl 50 Sonic Blaster
"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." -- Positron

FrostByghte · 04-08-2005 10:54 AM

Great work and nice read Arcas!

Nevre · 04-09-2005 04:34 AM

Its so rare to see intelligent, well thought out posts.
I dont want to make it a trend so I just way to say that Im thinking of starting an all rain group on Infinity so pm me if you are interested.

Why all rain? Well, its become a favorite pasttime to bash the various rains (rain of fire, rain of ice, blizzard, freezing rain) so I want to see what happens when you stack lots of them together and thusly

Ice Blasters
Fire Blasters
Storm/** defenders and
**/Storm controllers lets gang up and rain on someones parade.

I can be contacted in game at @nevre

Arcas_NA · 04-11-2005 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Invuln/Super Str Tankers, Assault Rifle/Devices Blasters, and Martial Arts/Super Reflex Scrappers

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm already drooling at the possible combination of up to six potential disorient powers. Five of which are mag 3!! Even without much enhancement, you guys are probably a stunning machine.

[ QUOTE ]
After some experimenting we have determined that our stacked Assault is adding a noticeable increase in the damage for all attacks. While the amount added is relatively small, it works out to be, literally, over a thousand extra points of damage over the course of a mission.

[/ QUOTE ]

And lucky us, come issue 4 it'll have a more improved boost.

[ QUOTE ]
Travel - one blaster has Teleport and Recall Friend. He heads to the mission while the team heads to contacts and stocks up on any supplies we may need. As everyone finishes he 'ports them to the mission. This freed up one--and in several cases two--power that the rest of the team to could use more effectively for attacks or pool powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well done on this front. Even more so than stamina and endurance management, I think the travel powers are 'the' test that seperates the most dedicated SuperTeams from the rest. This will reap true benefits later on.

But speaking of endurance management. Fitness powers fit right in with natural heroes, I'd imagine. Is your team going that route or will they use a combination of enhancements and other methods?

[ QUOTE ]
Rooks Gambit are about to embark on the Cavern of Transcendence Trial and I really look forward to seeing how well we perform.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you will all do exceptionally well. The only 'challenge' that comes from the Cavern of Transcendence are issues of communication and team coordination... both of which you guys have in full.

I keep going back to the Cavern trial as a test and workout of my "group leading" skills. Getting 7 strangers who just met five minutes ago on the same page for that one is a enjoyable challenge at best and a nightmare at worst.

[ QUOTE ]
Against the CoH AI we are just about unstoppable (well, for level 16, anyway) but I have no idea how well our team would do in an Arena environment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know the specifics of your powers, but I'm sure you guys will do better than most in the arena. If for no other reason, because the fact that you all know each other very well. Add to that the potential for powerful disorients, and the 1-2 power advantage from the travel power situation... all should help out.

As for the post-16 game. I think you guys will do great. But I will say one thing, all the scrappers and blasters that dipped into medicine should pick-up stimulant without hesitation or question. And you know the saying with status protection... it's best used before you need it. That'll take a nice big chunk out of one of the main drawbacks of lacking defender powers.

Arcas_NA · 04-13-2005 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why all rain? Well, its become a favorite pasttime to bash the various rains (rain of fire, rain of ice, blizzard, freezing rain) so I want to see what happens when you stack lots of them together and thusly

Ice Blasters
Fire Blasters
Storm/** defenders and
**/Storm controllers lets gang up and rain on someones parade.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have honestly, never seen a team like this, and that's a good thing. It's really unique.

The controllers are definately a help, I'd be leaning towards Earth or Ice control personally.

It would be interesting to see what happens if the team members heavily slot their rains with ::gasp:: damage enhancements.

The naysayers would jump in at this point saying "damage is a waste, they're only little "1s" in damage." Well, yeah, but that's lots and lots of "1s" from lots and lots of rains. All of which pretty much already have big inherent accuracy bonuses. What if you also added eight stacked assaults and kinetic damage buffs on top of that?

Another idea too would be to make it an all 'location' power focused team. And just let them blow through hazard zones with ease.

Throw a burn tank in the middle with a dark defenders' tar patch, and a few controller location powers, then unload the rains. Everything will probably be dead long before the tank has to worry about any 'fear' issues.

You'll probably even have a few assault rifle blasters following you around, asking to join in for a little "offensive igniting."

Heidegger · 04-24-2005 09:01 PM

Arcas -

I started a superteam in mid-March that your post was largely the inspiration for. Thank you!

We are called the Olympiad (our names are Greek Gods - with a code number at the end), and we are on the Freedom server. 6 playing sessions thus far, and we are level 26. Unlike buffer overrun or those SGs where everyone just intermingles, it is a pure ST - 8 characters that were planned and coordinated from scratch, and only play together, twice a week at scheduled times (you'd better believe that was hard to arrange).

Here are the ATs:

Dionysus - Kinetics/Radation Defender (me)
Apollo - Empathy/Dark Defender
Hades - Ice/Radation Controller
Zeus - Invulnerability/EM Tanker
Ares - AR/Dev Blaster
Hephaestus - Fire/Fire Blaster
Artemis - Spines/SR Scrapper
Hermes - Broadsword/Regen Scrapper

Builds were mostly planned out in advance, although we have had tweaks since then. Some of the features:
Both defenders and the controller have maneuvers and tactics.
3 of us have recall friend - one of which has SS, and one has Teleport.
Someone has grant invis, someone else group fly, etc. etc.

One of the rules I had in constructing the builds: no duplication of power sets. I wanted versitility. That meant we couldn't have a /inv scrapper since we have a inv tanker. It might be equally powerful to have 8 radiation defenders, but I wanted all 8 of us to be bringing something truly unique to the table. And its true - any 4-5 of us together is still a good team, but 6, 7, or 8...so many ways to take everything down.

But aside from the coordination of builds, I think there is an even bigger benefit to Superteams - that kind of knowledge of how to play together is so invaluable. Good regular teams can plan out tactics in advance. But when things don't go as planned, or there is an unexpected change, having a team that understands each other and will instantly adapt....is so amazing.

Thanks again for suggesting to us all what great potential these teams could have. If you want to check out our very preliminary website, it is
http://Olympiad.cohchat.com/

Arcas_NA · 04-30-2005 05:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I started a superteam in mid-March that your post was largely the inspiration for. Thank you!

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thank you. It's always good to hear that my long-winded posts actually help other players.

[ QUOTE ]
it is a pure ST - 8 characters that were planned and coordinated from scratch, and only play together, twice a week at scheduled times (you'd better believe that was hard to arrange)

[/ QUOTE ]

Of that, I have no doubt. It's quite the accomplishment.

[ QUOTE ]
One of the rules I had in constructing the builds: no duplication of power sets. I wanted versitility. That meant we couldn't have a /inv scrapper since we have a inv tanker. It might be equally powerful to have 8 radiation defenders, but I wanted all 8 of us to be bringing something truly unique to the table. And its true - any 4-5 of us together is still a good team, but 6, 7, or 8...so many ways to take everything down.

[/ QUOTE ]

My knack has always been for overkill stacking of a few specific attributes over versatility, even to the point of stupidity at times.

But I certainly notice the great amount of potential power in your team, in so many areas.

You have three powerful defense debuff members in the broadsword scrap, your defender, and the radiation controller (and to a little extent the AR blaster).

The EM tank and AR blaster can join forces and become a powerful disorienting force just by themselves. The empath can even join in that effort with Dark Pit.

So already you're fighting hordes of massively debuffed and disoriented enemies, just waiting for the hugely buffed fire blaster and spines scrapper to let them have it.

A few random comments that may or may not mean anything:

No combustion for Hephaestus? Ok, so maybe it's just a silly dream of mine, but I do want to see that blaster that can make good strategic use of powers like combustion, blazing aura, consume, burn, and hot feet. I have no doubt that you guys can do it, easily, but different players have different preferences. I've heard the case from a lot of blasters saying, "Well, if I wanted a melee hero I would have been a scrapper."

(Important public notice: The above statement is 100% SuperTeam focused. Any blaster attempts at blazing aura, hot feet or the like in a non-SuperTeam or worse, a solo setting, may result in death, debt, and uncontrollable whinning to the devs.)

If you're thinking about slotting Hermes broadsword with defense debuff, take your pick. To my knowledge all broadsword attacks that do defense debuff all equally do a "moderate" debuff. So there is no "best" power to throw the enhancements in like there are for the defender and controller.

The same can be said for disorient, there are "better" powers to enhance and most of the focus should go to Dark Pit, Beanbag, Taser, Stun, Bone Smasher, and Total Focus.

Anyway, please check back in and give us highlights of how the group is doing and stories about your mission and arena victories.

Eric Nelson · 06-26-2005 12:28 AM

I guess this has been dormant for a couple of months now, but it's interesting to note that I'm a member of a four-person group that began recently with exactly this paradigm -- characters conceived from level 1 ONLY to play together, never solo or with each other.

Instead of going for uniformity, we are trying for multi-tasking, so we aren't duplicating any powers. As noted above, for instance, movement is really only necessary for one character, so everyone else has extra power slots freed up to use for offense or defense.

We have an empathy Defender, a spines Scrapper, a tech Blaster and a Controller, which so far has been a pretty good mix (we're all at 11th level as of this date).

One thing I didn't see above is something that affects the Scrapper and Blaster much moreso than the Controller or Defender -- debt. Since the Scrapper is the primary hand-to-hand combatant of our foursome, he's the one doing an inordinate amount of dying, followed closely by the Blaster. The Controller and Defender spend a lot of time running away, so we have much less debt.

What we decided was that any characters who fall far behind due to a large amount of debt can play enough to 'catch up' to the rest of the group. So far it seems to work okay.

Anyway, just wanted to say the post and all the comments were great, and had lots of great ideas and thoughts to refine the ideas put forth here. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts!

Leader of Legion of Valor/Fallen Legion (Victory server)
http://legionofvalor.guildportal.com / http://fallenlegion.guildportal.com

StainedGlassScarlet - L50 Spines/Inv Scrapper | Badges: 1,396
Avatar detail taken from full-size piece by Douglas Shuler here

Doctor_Grass · 06-26-2005 01:26 AM

i love the ieda of a super team, but noone is ever on as much as me when i have an internet connection. back a few months ago me and a friend always teamed but we were both emp. i was emp/nrg he was ill/emp. but oh well eventually i'll land in a super team.

also tell the scrapper not to worry, pretty soon he will get tough and the blaster will die religiously. , have fun though.

TopDoc · 06-27-2005 07:42 AM

This thread so long ago is what inspired me to create the Buffer Overrun SG. I looked at the ATs as Arcas did and determined that an all Radiation team could do it all. Accelerate Metabolism at level 2 for Defenders gives great buffs, and is overpowering when stacked 8 times. All of the other buffs and debuffs are incredibly powerful when stacked a few times. As a result, Buffer Overrun has 16 level 50 chars now, and we've recently started recruiting for BO-TNG (the next generation). We started Friday, and people were in their mid teens 2 days later. If you want to try playing in a superteam, check out the link in my sig.

Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304

The_3rd_Blade · 07-01-2005 07:22 AM

This is good stuff for the intermediate to advanced player. You really ought to post this in the Guides section and PM the author of the Guide to Guides post there.

Want to see more tilesets?