DustyFarrell

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Now think about this for a moment if you will. You've got an empath, who uses their PvE build for PvP. They will not turn on pvp mode, but will actively heal, and buff people who are pvping, while they just get to stand, unharmed by all.


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Maybe somebody else has pointed this out, but if the PvP/PvE SwapBuildFlag is properly implemented, a PvE Empath will be unable to target and thus buff either an enemy NPC or a player flagged for PvP.

It's been done many times before in many other games. It's a rudimentary algorithm nowadays.

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Flagging
[...] Consider if one first had to speak to the zone mission-contact and click "switch to PVP mode" in the menu; only then having the 30 second timer begin. This would have an immediate salutary effect on zone behavior since players can choose not to become a target and if someone wants to play with them they will have to entice them. Potential new players also have freedom to explore the zone, ask questions, and make observations without constantly looking over their shoulder or falling prey to outclassing bullies seeking easy "rep" points.
[...]
In practice: the PVP-mode would remain off when one entered a PVP zone.


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Red flag. Despite the other good points you made in your obviously thoroughly-thought-out post ... Standardised response commencing:


[u]#3: PvP-OFF flags for PvP zones[u]
Once again: this is an unbelievably STUPID idea.

But once again, to rebutt at greater length: while I have spent most of this post trying to keep PvP out of my PvE ... I must, in all fairness, point out that the PvPers should not have their little corners of our world watered down in any way. There is absolutely nothing in any PvP zone that you MUST have (inane villain Accolade requirements included, much to my own dismay).

When you enter a PvP zone, you consent to be attacked by other players. The big sign out front, the obnoxiously-loud klaxon sound, the big-red-number countdown ... if these don't manage to clue you in, then to be perfectly honest, and perhaps rudely blunt: IMO you're too stupid to breathe ... so please, stop.

Leave the PvP out of our PvE, indeed - but don't try and take the PvP away from the PvPers, either; fair's fair, after all.

Thus, a third time: NO, THANK YOU.


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You're turning into a broken record, Pax. His idea is valid because it is an integral of a much larger system. Yes, implementing a flag system by itself would be unbelievable stupid and would worsen an already bad situation. That, however, is not what he's suggesting.

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I don't PVP. At all. But I spend a lot of time in PVP zones for various reasons.

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I've watched PvP get debated on these forums ever since my very first day here (check the registration date, eh?). In all that time, this is the first suggestion anyone has ever made that I feel confident I could support 100%.

This is the way it should have been done right from the beginning!

(And yes, I read both posts from beginning to end. Excellent anaylsis and recommendations!)

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Amusing and well done.

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Wow...

Why aren't the PR videos this well done?

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There are no publically announced plans for a console version of CoX. The console games are:

Atrix
Punch Monster
Point Blank
Dragonica

This information comes from Investor Relations reports that are publically available here: NC Soft

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Wow. Very impressive.

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Sorry to see how frustrating getting the Speed Demon badge is for some people. Myself, I'm not even bothering to try. I'd much rather spend my time present hunting.

Good luck, though. You'll need it!

(and speed boost, and a jump pack, and accelerate metabolism, and inertial reduction, and...)

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I know my opinion is not welcome here, but I am still entitled to it.

In my opinion PvP participation will not dramatically improve even if every idea on the list is implemented. Don't misunderstand me, the concerns expressed are genuine and the list is important. I am positive that implementing these changes will improve PvP for those who are already doing it. I see nothing here that would bring me into PvP in CoX, and I spent two years playing Lineage II.


As I have posted elsewhere, in my opinion PvP in CoX is broken beyond repair and needs to be redesigned from the ground up. The concept outlined below is not entirely my own but is a compliation of ideas from the months leading up to the release of CoV.

1. Transform the current PvP zones into co-op zones.

2. Create a special server for PvP that has no connection to the main servers. Allow SGs to build bases on the server where they meet, discuss strategy, house some kind of visual awards, and zone directly from the base into the PvP zone at the moment their missions start.

3. Allow players who wish to engage in PvP to copy their characters to the PvP server minus all enhancements and with all inventories reduced to zero, but with SG-loyalties intact. Have all copied characters automatically bumped up to level 50. Also, allow the creation of entirely new characters native to the PvP server that start at level 50.

4. Create a dozen mission-centric PvP maps based on the current map zones but with no NPC enemies and no PvE missions.

5. Have a structured, regularly scheduled league of PvP encounters that awards prestige, PvP points, badges, and SG base decorations to the winners along with some kind of smaller, individual award for every single participant. All PvP awards stay on the PvP server.

6. Do not allow PvP characters to be copied back to the main servers.

This system would allow PvP to exist using CoX paradigms, powers, and maps without placing any burden of participation on the non-PvP players. This would allow powersets, missions, and awards to be created especially for PvP and also allow current powersets to be modified for PvP on an as-needed basis without transferring the PvP balance back into the PvE game either directly or indirectly.

Most importantly of all, this encourages experimentation with PvP in a manner that does not require a PvE player to damage the PvE capabilities of their character while also freeing a PvP player from being forced to powerlevel through content they do not enjoy and have no interest in.

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I'm not coming at this from a NIMBY perspective. My motivation and intent is to see PvP designed so that it will have more in common with an amateur sport than an imaginary battleground.

If (as stated elsewhere) only 10% of the CoX playerbase is interested in PvP, then it seems to me it would be far more reasonable to spend development resources creating a way to bring these players together without endangering the ingame experience of the other 90% of the playerbase. Therefore, would it not be better to create a PvP friendly environment that allows a PvE player to be tempted to experiment there without affecting their ability to continue enjoying the PvE portion of the game (and to do so without nerfing the current powersets)?

You've put a lot of time and effort into this list, but implementing it will not attract PvE players like myself. Rather, the only thing it will do is improve the experience for the current 10% who actively participate in PvP. That, my fellow players, is not going to answer the pressing need to increase the overall popularity of PvP.

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Man-oh-man-oh-man-oh-man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You CAN'T release a video like that without announcing Open Beta at the same time! You just CAN'T!!!!!!!!!

Surely that constitutes cruel and unusual punishment!

If the items listed in the compiled list were implemented it would be heavenly!

If individual characters could construct their own "apartment" and link it to the base via a teleporter or portal, that would be heavenly, too!

The introduction of base building was a brilliant and incredibly useful feature, even without CoP/IoP and elaborate base raiding. However, it is far from ideal and I, like so many others, hope the current implementation is only the beginning!

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will the weapon customization effect ninja katanas or bows?

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Yes, and this was actually a tricky combination to figure out. A Thugs/Trick Arrow Mastermind for example will be able to customize both their left and right hand pistol as well as their bow.

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OMFG!!!!!!!!!! When I stop to consider the amount of work needed to implement that level of customization...

Wow... You folks must really love your work. Thank-you.

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I am deeply and profoundly impressed.

Excellent implementation of many critical suggestions made by players.

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First and most importantly, excellent guide, Angry_Citizen! Flawless!

Secondly and far less importantly, history has little to do with gaming, but, here goes:

Ninjitsu skills were practiced by both regular samurai and special peasant-caste warriors that were used for spywork, assassination, and other "black ops". The ninjato is a real sword, and was indeed considered a highly disposable weapon, but to call it "the standard ninja sword" is both misleading and downright false. Like all things related to ninjitsu, it was special tool with special uses.

Most ninja working as spies or assassins went about in some sort of disguise, often as tradesman or peddlers. In this case they often carried a wakizashi because non-samurai in classes or occupations that required road travel were allowed to apply for permission to carry a single sword, but not a "shin-katana", or "new-style long sword". In these cases a good quality wakizashi perfectly fit the bill.

For battlefield ninja doing recon missions, officer assassinations, and so on, some preferred a special version of the "shin-katana" that was straight rather than curved and often fitted with a square hilt guard rather than the ornately carved oval hilt guards of a proper samurai. To the Japanese, this was a "shin-katana", even though it was not curved, but many Western writers and whatnot have mislabeled it the "ninjato", which is an entirely different weapon. The advantage to the straight sword was that it could be worn on the back with far less chance of catching in branches and snagging on bushes the ninja was crawling through.

It might surprise many of you to learn that the favorite weapon of a battlefield ninja was not a sword at all. The battlefield ninja's best loved weapon was an octoganal barrelled Portugese or Dutch flintlock rifle. It was sturdy, reliable, and allowed them to pick off targets while still beyond the range of smooth-bored rifles and high-powered recurved bows.

Remember, my friends, Hollywood is not the best place to study history.

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Wow... The degree of negativity in this thread astounds me.

Personally, I think the new dual blades look totally awesome, like radical even! One dual blade/Ninjitsu stalker coming up! Gotta think of a good costume, though. Nothing too samurai-ish. Angelic maybe. With a pirate hat! Yeah! Dual blade/Ninjitsu pirate angel stalker with Feral Cat ears!

If AS fails they'll die of a heart attack when they see me!

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If Manti and Recluse are working together to fix the timeline (or to alter it), it must have happened after Manti turned evil. Why pretend to be that violent, make up a story about how you killed your parents, if you were going to fix something? If this was something to do for the greater good, why all the subterfuge?

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Actually, I think I may have an answer for this one.

Imagine you are born into a world very much like the one we live in now, but some crucial event changed your life and you still remember the world we live in now and consider it to be real!.

Manticore was mentored by Back Alley Brawler, but now suddenly the Brawler's all comatose (possibly from some dire mishap Manticore himself was responsible for), but Manticore remembers being mentored by the Brawler. His memory is rich in detail from all the good times they had together that suddenly never happen!

That would tend to make a person a bit insane. They cannot trust their memory because when they compare their internal world to the world around them, there is a major disconnect. They are delusional, and they know they are delusional, but they also know without a doubt that the problem is the external world not linking up with their internal one, not vice-versa.

This would naturally lead to all the problems Manticore is described as having: substance abuse, violent acting out, complete disregard for human life, etc. Even his blunt dismissal of his girlfriend (arrow to the chest is a pretty final way to break up, eh?). After all, from the perspective of his internal world, she's not even real!

So Manticore finds the one person just as insane as he is and joins forces with him: Lord Recluse.

Maybe, just maybe and this is pure speculation now, the main game world is going to become this alternate reality the Paragon Times is hinting at. Only three people remember the world the way it should be: Lord Recluse, Manticore, and YOU! Lord Recluse then becomes the mission contact for villains trying to set things back to normal while Manticore becomes the hero contact.

Or maybe I'm the one who's delusional.

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Okay, now I'm feeling paranoid. Between those cryptic issues of the Paragon times and the merging of GD forums, I'm beginning to wonder if the two games are going to be drawing ever more closer together over the next few issues.

Are we moving away from factionalism? Mind you, I'm not saying I disapprove, but the trend does seem worrisome.

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I only have one question:

Is this a major content overhaul or just another task force?

Personally, I'm hoping for the former.


Edit: There are days when I just love Google!
Food for thought

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Thank the lord.... With all the W0lv3rin3s and Spydirmen running around, we don't need the real ones showing up and gutting them lol

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Hmm. Myself, I'd kinda like to see that.

There's a certain poetic justice to it that appeals to my sense of irony.

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Call me crazy, but I think they're laying the groundwork for a MUO tie-in.

By the time MUO releases, the CoX universe will have moved closer into Marvel-based assumptions. Magic and Natural origins will vanish, both tutorials will be replaced with a combined tutorial, all ATs will be available, PvP areas will become FFAs and your status of "villain" or "hero" will be determined by your mission choices and your actions in the PvP zones.

MUO might even wind up being nothing more than Issue 20 or some such thing, allowing CoX users access to the Marvel product without unnecessary loss of the subscriber base.

In all measurable effects, MUO will be the new generation of CoH, without the bleeding that 2nd issue MMORPGs normally bring.

Or maybe it just means the tutorials will be temporarily closed until the flood of server transfers stablizes.

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Kimba was an afterschool religion. And Speed Racer.

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Yep, with all these pages, somebody had to beat me to it!

Am I old?

I got my first real kiss after taking my date home following the premiere of Star Wars.

Yeah, I'm old.

Okay, I've been messing around with Thugs and loving every minute of it, so today I decided to take the plunge and make a Dark/ Dark Stalker.

Um, yuck! The sound effect for the first two Dark Armors (other than Hide) did not work for me. Ten minutes in I started having a dull headache, then some nausea. First time in my life a game has done that.

No, it's not related to my physical condition. As soon as I exited the symptoms left. It's definitely the sound.

To be fair, I have never tried any Dark Armor-capable AT, so I cannot say anything beyond my one, single, very short experience with Dark Amor for the Stalker in the form currently on test. If this is the same sound effect you've used on other ATs, then it is probably safe to assume I alone in all the world am incompatible with this sound effect.

Nonetheless, I had to let you know.

Okay, I've read through 80% (literally) of this thread. The discussion has ranged from overpowered Stalkers (or not) to Grand Unified Theory of Everything (an impossibility in my mind, but I'm no scientist). The one post that made me smile ended with a call for a nice global thermonuclear war. An apt solution I sometimes think, but rather irrelevant here and now. As an aside, if Anne Coulter becomes president in 2008 I will gladly surrender my dark blue passport.

Chess
Checkers
Go
Shogi
Othello

Five games. All rely on two opposing, perfectly balanced powersets and a grid to move the pieces over. All are pure PvP games of skill, with no luck or randomization involved. All have simple rulesets and can be played anytime, anywhere. Also, if you lack the proper pieces, they can be easily substituted. All five games are thousands of years old.

A beginner can learn any of those five games in half an hour or less. A master will spend a lifetime studying them and still have things to learn.

In my never humble opinion the PvP aspect of MMORPGs is completely unworkable, and will remain so for a long time to come. It is overly complex, always depends on some element of randomization, easily exploited, and caters to bullying rather than fair play. In my experience PvP in MMORPGs is boring because it always come down to one of two things:

who has the better built toon
who gets lucky with the seed algorithm

and in the very worst cases, a combination of the two. I find discussions of "skill" amusing when they are harmless, and completely laughable when they are serious. "Skill" in a PvP-enabled MMORPG is a minor element, when it has any impact at all. It's never about skill. It's always about the numbers. I'm sorry, but any other approach is simply delusional. (Using TP Foe to drop an opponent onto Caltrops and a trio of mines, for example. How is that "skill"? If anything, it's an exploit because it puts complete power in the hands of /Dev or /Traps player.)

CoV has not broken the mold. If anything, it has reinforced it. Discussions like this one will never end until someone, somewhere has the guts, genius, and sheer luck, to create a PvP-enabled MMORPG that captures the same simplicity/complexity dichotomy as any of the classic games I've listed above.

Nerfing Stalkers is not the answer. Balancing Perception/Stealth is not the answer, either. Greater simplification, not greater complexity, is the only route that can hope to bring success.

The one poster who proposed that any PvE build should also be PvP viable has the right idea. Only when the worst PvE build imaginable can walk into a PvP area and compete well enough that the player who built it will come away with a greater appreciation for the game itself will this or any other game come close to matching the elegance of the Classics.

If you're looking for a realistically balanced PvP model, Halo is not the answer. Look to the Classic board games and find some way to incorporate that same level of consistency, predictability, simplicity in content, and complexity in mastery. Cryptic needs to be looking for a way to make each player's PvP experience as easy to learn as Othello, as intellectually demanding as Go, and just as simple to learn as two sets of black and white stones on a fixed grid.

Each indivdual player, by the way, not each team! Attempting to force team-based or faction-based PvP onto the player is the first step down the wrong road. Factions and teams can be both important and relevant, no reason for them not to be, but it is the individual player that pays a monthly subscription fee and must come away from the game feeling content.

According to Nick Yee's Daedalus Project, 75% of the overall MMORPG playerbase currently does not enjoy PvP and 5% or less actively participate in PvP. Those are the numbers you need to change if you want the PvP portion of CoV/CoH to ever be anything more than a freaky sideshow.

In terms of suggestions... Well, for starters don't let Hide stack with Stealth, but even that is only a short-term solution. The only long-term solution is to treat the PvP game as completely separate from the PvE one. It needs a completely different ruleset and a completely different set of goals. Until we reach the point where a computer AI can match the creativity of a human mind, mixing the two will never work to anyone's satisfaction.

Greater simplicity, not greater complexity. Any other approach will only lead to an endless chain of "balancing" and huge numbers of frustrated players.

Andromeda Redux
Ten parsecs from home, nine light-years from heaven.

Description:
Brand new SF-based roleplay group with no immediate plans for PvP. Prefer Sci/Tech origin, but open to all, as long as your character has an SF-style presentation. A classic witch (such as the Sea Witch) would find herself out of sorts, while a space witch from another galaxy would feel right at home. Sub-mariner would be more than welcome, while Thor would never really feel comfortable.

Villaingroup channel chat must always be in character, which is not to say your character must fulfill some pre-defined template, only that 1337-speak and extreme shorthand such as, "ne1 up 4 CoT mish?" could very well result in immediate banishment from the Empire.

Smaller is better, and Andromeda Redux is more interested in quality than quantity.

A recruiting thread has been posted here, while a biographic portrait for the Empress is temporarily available here. Creation of a dedicated website is not planned at this time, but could be possible if the group becomes a stable entity.

To join, please send a tell to Dusty Enalios, or for global chat, @Dusty.

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Stop telling me its the retailer's fault! That isn't the point! The point is that its out now, and what is being done about it. The point is that the retailers broke the street date and, as a result, PlayNC may be losing customers who are angry at being locked out of the game they just bought, who may very well go and buy something else instead. Think beyond the means and think of the ends, folks.

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NC Soft and Cryptic Studios cannot be held responsible for failures in the retail channel. No one can except the retailers themselves. Would it be nice and generate supremely good PR if NC Soft did something to compensate for the retailer's mistakes? Yes, but it might not be cost effective or even practical.

"Casual gamers" of the kind you're referring to are very rare in the MMORPG market, even though they are a major component of the console market. MMORPGs require monthly fees and long-term time commitments, not to mention an active internet connection (preferrably a high-speed one), both of which are anathema to the retail casual gamer.

Yes, many MMORPG participants describe themselves as "casual" gamers, but these are not the same as the "casual gamer" component quoted in retail marketing statistics. Two completely different groups and two completely different sets of expectations. Yes, the retail market "casual gamer" would not tolerate a game showing up on shelves before they can play it. (Not to mention that such a thing is impossible to imagine in a console game, single player computer game, or limited access internet game.)

WoW players do not fall into that "casual gamer" category, and neither do CoV/CoH players. Battlefield/Battlefield 2 players, Counterstrike players, and even Neverwinter Nights players, however, can and do fall into that group.

Most active retail chains understand this distinction at the management level, however, they often fail to communicate that distinction to their employees. But again, you cannot fault NC Soft or Cryptic for a failure in the training programs at EB Games, Best Buy, and so on.

In short, although it would be nice if they could do something, I'm not convinced it would be practical, nor am I convinced they should.

Oh, and a final note, the internet is the last place I would ever expect to see "mindless conformity". Nope, not here. Especially not in a forum.