Deus_Otiosus

That's quite true. I won't argue with you there.

The Pylon just happens to be a great way to accurately measure DPS.

That being said, let's see if we can modify it a bit.

As long as your character is the sole DPSer, you don't have to be "solo". You can have a few friends there for support, keeping you alive as long as they aren't providing buffs that would throw off the DPS calculation.

I hope that's a bit better.


That's true some people don't care.

But to say "Who cares?" means that no one cares. Where a lot of people actually do.

Otherwise KB wouldn't get a thread like this once every few weeks.


And I think that people who are playing a melee, who have never thought about calculating their attack chain, and could care less about their exact DPS and just want to have fun will not be having fun when someone KB scatters the mobs they were fighting all over the place.


And I've been focusing on melees because they take the worst of it when KB starts scattering mobs. But my ranged AoE users hate it as well.



The 8 other powers are there to help you make the most of being in the center of a fight.

KB scatter removes that fight.


That's not what I said. I'll just ask you to read that part of the discussion again.


I don't play Dual Blades, you're confusing me with 2 other posters.


That depends on the amount of Dominators on the team, and what kind of control set(s) they are playing.

As long as the mobs get locked down after the Brute takes the alpha and has himself surrounded, it's generally not a problem - because the mobs are still close enough to allow for the Brute's attacks to generate/maintain Fury.

The problem with KB scatter is that the mobs are no longer in range of melee attacks. They're no longer near each other, nor are they near the Brute, to fuel or be targets for any number of powers that require mobs to be close to the Brute/Melee.'



I don't have anything to support it, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say in the comics I've read is that when teams are fighting opponents, you'll only see enemies knocked away from other team members when things are going badly for the team or a particular member of the team.

Which to me implies a greater level of control over KB than players have, especially with regards to toning it down as needed.

Enemies being out of range of RttC are not providing regen. This is how Willpower survives.




Most brutes don't take taunt. And RttC has the weakest taunt of all taunt auras falling in well under 2s (1.5 offhand I think).



We're back to the earlier points.

Running around trying to hit mobs that have been scattered all over the place makes this both frustrating and pointless. You won't maintain fury in this situation.



You're not leaving the Brute/Melee much option to play their character as intended here, and it sounds more like the Brute/Melee should have to rework their playstyle to one that is both ineffective and frustrating to accomodate KB users.

Not needing mitigation because the mobs are scattered isn't really something a brute is happy about.

Should the Brute really just accomodate the KB user, ignoring their Fury bar (and thus damage capability) , their keystone power in their secondary, their aggro control abilities and any PBAoEs they have?

That sounds about as unfun as any activity can be in this game.


I don't often use the add/edit note feature in the game, but I've made exceptions here and there for players that obviously had no regard for their teams and instead just wanted to throw mobs all over the room.




No, not if you want to maximize your damage.

And not everyone does that. A lot of people just button mash like you posted I imagine.

A structured attack chain means you have worked out the recharge needed, adjusted the cast times to reflect the animations and chosen the most optimal sequence of attacks to form a seamless chain to inflict maximum damage.

If you really think there is no difference between the two, build a scrapper and solo a pylon twice, each time employing a different method.

Squats.

For 4 months last year on a bulk, I did a 5x5 program 3 days a week (Stronglifts, you might have heard of it). The program called for Squats on Mon, Wed and Fri. You increase the weight on the bar by 2.5kg each new workout, if you completed 5x5 the previous workout.

That's 75 squats a week, and a constant incremental increase...

Started to wear my joints out and I was walking like I was 90. I'll never do it again, but I did gain about 12 pounds of solid muscle.


Do Squats, and lift heavy (work up to it of course).

If you do squats and deadlifts regularly, and lift heavy - you don't need cardio.

And you'll look like a beast.

Depriving others of their playstyle is exactly how a lot of groups and, especially melee players feel about KB. It does exactly as you described.

And as far as fun goes, having mobs scattered all over and knocked away from you is the diametric opposite of fun for any melee player, anyone with AoEs, PBAoEs - which includes debuffs, damage and heals.



In general you're providing a pretty reasonable argument, but this has nothing to do with the issue.



For the first one, I don't need that much mitigation. I don't need the mobs to run back to me. This doesn't even take into consideration teams with heavy support who are steamrolling.

In fact, making the mobs run back to me prolongs the enemy's life, not mine.


As for the second part, the only time I want an NPC to move from point A to point B is when point B is directly in front of me...so Teleport Foe?

It's mostly an efficiency problem.

I have the mobs locked in taunt from my attacks, feeding RttC, in range for Foot Stomp and nicely packed for my PPP AoE as well as all of the AoEs of the ranged support players. On top of this, as a Brute, I want them to attack me for constant high levels of Fury.

If I have to suddenly stop, and chase down targets one at a time to kill them - it becomes an exercise in frustration. Especially since I don't need the mitigation from KB.

Sinlge target knockback isn't really a problem here, but reckless AoE KB scatter all over the place is just messy and inefficient.

Hi Umbral, thanks for the help.

I had Arcanatimes worked out, but it's my first time using Arcanatime, so I wasn't confident in my numbers. (Good thing too, my numbers were wrong.)


Woops!

DPA as calculated by mids (254% Global Damage bonus from 85% Fury, single stacked Rage, and set bonuses. All individual attack damage bonuses are ED capped at 95% or so, except Gloom which is at 89.92%, I think I'm going to rework Gloom's slotting and sacrifice END to get to the DAM cap)

*note: I often hover around 85%~90% Fury, but went with the lower number.

Punch 187.6
Haymaker 308
KO Blow 668.5
Gloom 361.2


Those numbers are definitely higher than I'm used to seeing in game when solo, I'm going to assume SM/L resistances are the culprit.


That's correct. My Fury generation comes primarily from taking alpha strikes, at which point my attack chain becomes Fury maintenance.

When I did my first pylon test, I kept myself surrounded to saturate RttC and help maintain fury.



Excellent information, thank you.

Rather than punch, would there be value in adding Footstomp to fill in the gap?

I'm assuming no, since footstomp has such a long cast time and lower DPA than Gloom, but figured I'd ask anyway.



I should have mentioned that I have a net recovery of 3.5 e/s, or 3.13 with Darkest Night running, so the endurance isn't really a concern.

But thanks for the input.

And that's why KB has such a bad rep, a lot of players join with KB and don't include the team's plan when they use it recklessly.

I can say with certainty that the vast majority of teams I've been on have had the same general plan.

1) Lockdown the mobs in a tightly packed bunch, usually around the Aggro Control (Tanker/Brute) and other melees.

2) Everyone goes to town with their AoEs, PBAoEs and Radius based debuffs.


While I realize you're joking, I've played in several PUGs that have had people who were doing something that resembled that.

Most of the time they either sorted themselves out or got kicked from the team. Because helping mobs live longer was not the team's plan.


I've also been on teams where the KB player was smart. They targeted mobs that had locked onto squishy support characters and sent them flying into a wall. No one ever complained about them.

You forgot

3) Their entire character is designed around being surrounded in Melee.


Take for example, my SS/WP brute. The last thing I want when I'm playing that character is to have the group surrounding him to be scattered all over the place.


But bear in mind this goes beyond melee's having a problem with this. If I set up a tar patch with my dark, centered on the aggro control for the team - knocking stuff out of the tar patch is simply counter productive unless it's specifically saving someones life.


They can control how and when they use their powers, thus controlling their KB. I've been on teams with players who did, and on teams with players who didn't.

The difference is tremendous.


This is probably the heart of the problem. On teams that lack mitigation, KB is great. And the team will welcome it.

On teams with mitigation in abundance, KBing the mobs is more like mitigation for the mobs from your melee & PBAoEs (which includes important stuff like heals, or my Dark's Howling Twillight ).



I've highlighted the gem in that statement. Easily the most important thing to walk away with from this discussion if you're a KB user.

Super Strength falls pretty low on the list in terms of single target damage for brute primaries.

I would hazard to say that Super Strength is built on Foot Stomp and Knockdown.

Not to mention that Foot Stomp is the only multi-target damaging attack the set gets.


As for underpowered primaries, I'll put my votes in for Energy Melee and possibly Battle Axe. I don't think I've grouped with a single Energy Melee Brute (or even seen on at the cap BM) since June - and I play redside exclusively.

Definitely will help to cap your hit points, and get your regen as high as you can without gimping other aspects of the build.

I run with 30% vs. SM/L. Softcapping would mean suffering from cascading defense failure less, but it wouldn't prevent it completely.

Your options are generally SoW, Darkest Night, and popping oranges - or some combination of those.

That will help considerably against cims spawned for a full team.


Of course having a solid amount of support on the team will also be instrumental, but you don't always get optimal groups and it's good to aim for as much self sufficiency as possible.

That would depend on what you're looking to do in game, what other goals you have build-wise and how much you're willing to spend.

But roughly speaking, 100-130 HP per second.

There are a lot of combinations great for busting Rikti, and while I love Dark Melee you're relegating yourself to primarily single target damage, so be sure to include Dark Obliteration when you pick up soul.
My SS/WP Brute smashes Rikti just fine.

As /WP, you'll do quite well against Rikti, but you'll still need to be careful vs. mass ranged fire especially when RttC isn't fully saturated.


Good luck with whatever you choose.

Well if you wanted to try Dark/Dark it works well for both Scrappers and Tanks as I mentioned earlier.

If you're looking for a Brute no matter what, you can keep Dark Melee as your primary.

It has top tier single target damage, as well as a mini self heal, a unique build up and an endurance management tool.

It lacks AoE damage, but as a Brute you can pick up either Mu or Soul for that.

I'd recommend soul, as it will increase your single target damage with Gloom and let you pick up Dark Obliteration as well. And you'll also still have a lot of the Dark theme that you originally wanted.


Dark will pair well with a lot of secondaries, but I might recommend Willpower, Invulnerability or Shield.

Willpower will be the easiest to pick up and play. It also has Endurance management meaning you can skip or take Dark Consumption depending on your needs.

Invuln is also an excellent choice, and if you peruse the scrapper threads you can find a Dark Melee/Invuln build that solo'd 9 AVs at once (under controlled circumstances, but still an impressive feat).

Shield will give you the highest damage out put of all 3, and will add even more AoE damage. But it will probably be the most expensive should you really want to go to town and IO it out.


My vote would be for Dark Melee/Willpower or Dark Melee/Shields. Backed up by Soul Mastery for your PPP.

I would highly recommend this as the best option.

Because of this



I don't really RP in MMOs but...

I also think that starting out as a hero, and falling from grace to a Vigilante or even an outright Villain (perhaps due to use/abuse of dark powers) has a lot more potential for RP than starting out as a Villain.

It also means that those two sets will then work for you, and actually be complimentary and effective as opposed to on a brute, where Dark Armor works against Fury.

It looks like the choice is between an energetic, upside down <famous company> "swoosh" and a Steel Clad Fist.


Well that settles the debate for me then!!

Both Scrappers and Brutes are fun capable soloers, and both offer team contributions down the line.

Scrappers are a bit more unfettered in groups and generally aren't expected to do more than run around and flip out on stuff. They do this really well.

Brutes also run around and flip out on stuff, but are also often expected or needed to take alpha strikes and hold aggro. This can sometimes be tough while leveling, but is often preferable once you can handle it as it's great for building/maintaining fury.

Out of the 3 secondaries you mentioned, Willpower will be the easiest and most forgiving to level.


Taking everything into consideration, I would choose based on your preference of redside vs. blueside and whether you like the fury mechanic or not.

I would aim for max HP & softcapping SM/L.

I personally think going for regen bonuses are largely unnecessary as most will be too small to matter once you cap your HP and have Fast Healing, Health and RttC. You do want the regen procs though.


Alternatively, you can survive for sure with less than softcapped SM/L defenses (I do it on my brute without issue), something around 33-35% (so you can softcap with 1 small purp when needed), and then let your resistances and regen do the rest of the work allowing you to build for more exotic defenses to which you have much less resistance to, but significantly higher starting numbers to work with.

Except the OP has all stated this quite clearly himself.

And it's NINE AV's.

It's still an impressive feat imo.

No worries. I still appreciate the input.


Well that's a good point.

At the moment, I very rarely level down and mostly stick to ITF/LGTF and occasional RSF. Going Rogue might change this, but I'll deal with that when the time comes, possibly with a second build for Malfactoring.



That's quite true, it's excessive in most cases.

The reason I'm pushing for such high defenses is for the ITF/LGTF. Anything that helps mitigate running through the caves/corridors, where I don't have a chance to debuff my opponents will be useful. But 42% might be a bit excessive.

You make a lot of good points however, so I might drop down from my current 40% or so to incorporate some of the ideas you presented.



Now you're hitting me where it hurts.

I know fly is superfluous. And it might get cut in favor of Flares as you suggested. Hover I'll keep, it's great for soloing and still useful on teams. The reason I prefer it to CJ is that it allows me to take full advantage of my high ranged defenses.

The other reason I like hover is probably just a playstyle thing. I have a tendency to fly directly above the group of mobs I'm dealing with when they are all in tar patch (this is generally when solo).



Thanks for going through the trouble of putting a build together.

I've saved the file, and I'll definitely borrow some ideas for use in my build.

You can have them, you just need to use the free respec granted by the arc.



Actually, I quite like the free, soloable respec that redside characters have available through the patron arc system.

First, thanks for the comments. Though I could do without the sarcasm.

This is probably just a playstyle difference, but I use Fearsome Stare primarily for the To Hit debuff, the fear is just icing on the cake.

Nothing stays feared (or alive for that matter) very long once the AoEs start getting dropped. I chose cloud senses for the set bonuses, which are just awesome.

It may not be optimal slotting, so in the end you might be right. i'll try it out first on test and see if I like it. But 2.5% END, 6.25% Rech, 3.75% Ranged and 1.88% NRG/NEG seemed too good to pass up.


I agree. I wanted to add 2 more slots for more +Resistance, I might take this into consideration and drop two of the LoTGs, keeping thr 7.5% rech and add some resistance slotting to see how it looks.


Again, here I was going for Stupify's set bonuses.

You realize you're making two opposing points?

1) All AoEs are already at the ED cap for damage. Slotting for more will do nothing.

2) You'd have me slot Dam/Rech Detonations to add a total of +25% recharge to Fire Breath and Rain of Fire individually, adding more damage to two powers already at ED cap and then remove 70% global recharge from the build by dropping hasten? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense.



For hasten, see the point above. Also, I didn't mention that I run speed TFs daily. Superspeed is a must for this, so both stay in the build.

I've never had any problems with the hasten crash so far, and I'm already L50.

Actually, I currently only have 2.5 e/s recovery on live, so things will only be better after this build is in place. Nothing lives long enough outside of AVs for the endurance issue to come into play anyway, and for those occasions I have Conserve Power.


Not a problem. I've got more than enough inf to buy the build outright. I actually have a third of the IOs already crafted, and a stockpile of merits + daily runs. So it's not a worry.

Comments and criticism welcome.

Thanks.

It's a great build.

It really drives home the point of how much performance you can get out of /SD if you invest heavily.

I've definitely taken quite a few ideas, especially if I decided to go for purple sets and the PvP IOs (not likely, considering current prices - Apocalypse redside is crazy right now )


Well, you could always just use E-fences as a set mule, but in general I don't like to do that either. I included it in my build with no intent to use it, and didn't slot it.

If you've got the 5 slots though (as you do) you can make great use of gloom and really fill out your ST attack chain. It's also a place for you to stick...gasp...Apocalypse. But you're budget seems to be able to handle it.


Yeah, you're End usage and Recovery was the first thing that really stood out to me.

My SS/WP is sitting around 3.31 net recovery (consumption already subtracted) and I still can get into trouble with a constant chain of footstomp/dark obliteration - especially when Rage/Hasten crash.

With your added AoE & AAO, the damage output might help you kill them faster, but that was definitely something that stood out.

I think you'll like it even more once you have gloom.

If you give me more to go on, I can definitely come up with something.

Do you want a traditional sounding male Japanese name (i.e. an old name, the kind few modern Japanese would name their kids) or are you looking for a name inspired by the characters powers/characteristics?

Or do you just want a direct translation of several words?