Deus_Otiosus

Could be!





Ultimately it doesn't matter of you even break even every time you are facing 10 enemies.

My point was that Ela & FA have tools to deal with their toggles & damage aura. At best theft of essence helps you counterbalance the cost of your heal - that does nothing for your basic end consumption.


This isn't a strike against DA, this is why people consider it endurance heavy IMO.


Unless your point was to use it like an end recovery tool? I don't think I would recommend that.



Early on I considered TW/DA for a Brute, ultimately I went Ela instead for a variety of reasons. Brute is still low level as I'm working on incarnate stuff for a Scrapper atm.

Does anyone have a TW/DA build with the following?

• 1900-2K HP if Brute
• Either softcaps SM/L and has decent to high Ene Def (40% ideal) or Melee/Ranged/AoE DEF high to softcap. 32.5% is not ideal to me, as this is insufficient on trials and requires 2 lucks to softcap.
• OG/CoF Optional (CoF is too end heavy, and I'm not a fan of the drunk walk, KD will probably mitigate that though)
• Hasten/SS/CJ are must haves
• 60-75% Global Rech before Hasten
• No budget limit (basically anything except the Panacea proc, but only because I don't think that proc is worth it)

Accolades need to be on. (I think I had them off when I exported)

You should also give him an education on the difference between Brute/Scrapper SD & Tanker SD.


I'll post this and see if he can see the difference. (note, you can take out the very pricey stuff and still get the same base results overall)

3100 HP, before OWTS. 3100

You're right, I'm more inclined to those two ATs because I'm willing to take the risk of dying more often to deal more damage. (FWIW I'm more inclined towards Corrs at this point because they are more useful than any melee AT).

I have no problem with that trade off.

The Tanker has guaranteed better mitigation hands down.


Yes but that only gets you so far.

Some enemies just don't die fast enough. I run into this on Incarnate trials a lot, and then there are those pesky AVs that show up from time to time.

In fact I think a lot of what we see on Incarnate trials was specifically added to separate Tankers and Brutes.


Brutes (and Scrappers) are more "fun" because a lot of players prefer doing damage than to play the Tanker role. (I think a smaller group prefers to actually be Tankers)


Ultimately what I have a problem with is people being convinced that there is no trade off, and that the Tankers mitigation is irrelevant.


If you think Tankers need more damage, fine, tell me how much of that "irrelevant" mitigation you will sacrifice for more damage? (No one ever answers this)

Or

Do you think Tankers aren't tough enough?




Which is it then? You (the general you) can't have it both ways. They can't both have not enough mitigation AND have a level of mitigation that is irrelevant.

In one breath you managed to infer that Brutes have too much mitigation because they are capable of achieving the same level of DEF and RES as a Tanker while simultaneously downplaying Tanker mitigation by stating how Tankers are not guaranteed to reach their max HP.

You also left out how the Brute has a whole lot further to get to their Res caps from buffing than the Tanker does, and how in the case of two equal builds under the same circumstances & buffs the Tanker will always have more mitigation, because they will have more HP.



Why is it we only see what Brutes are only potentially capable of as guaranteed and we see what Tankers are not guaranteed as iffy?

While DA compares favorably in terms of endurance consumption compared to Ela & FA, unlike either of those two sets it gets no tool to deal with the increased consumption.

Anyone who thinks TW doesn't eat endurance fast, doesn't have enough recharge.

T4 Inspirations & Ultimates didn't even exist in the game before Trapdoor got nerfed into being a joke.

Or are you saying that even now, with those things, you have characters that can't solo the current Trapdoor?

Good thing they aren't capable, even now, of withstanding damage as a Tanker.

Not even FA or Ela against their favored damage types!

25% Higher Base DEF
25% Higher Base RES
25% Higher Base HP
Higher HP Cap
Higher Status protection on some sets
Higher Debuff Resistances on some sets


Its easy for a lot of players (not necessarily you) to gloss over that and pretend like it doesn't exist though, and big orange numbers are oh-so-easy to see.



While we are quoting Castle, let's bring back this quote about Bruising:



Do we want another gem?

(Discussing Brutes vs. Tankers and threat generation)

And Tremor.

Well my Scrapper isn't able to.

Someone else could theoretically, I haven't seen it done successfully on the malaise fight.





Unfortunately 1 or 2 ranged attacks doesn't come close to the 200-300 DPS my melee characters are specifically built to do.

My ranged characters can jump/run away and continue to attack and use buffs/debuffs.

My melee characters can jump/run away but if they do they have to stand there and do nothing while the patch is under the AV.


I've been on 4 (successful) MoM trials, where my Scrapper spends the 1st stage malaise fight just standing there watching it happen.

> Countdown to patches
> Patches appear
> Jump away and avoid patches, wait for them to disappear
> Patches disappear, engage AV, 5s on countdown until next wave of patches.


I'm sorry but that's anti-melee. 7-10ft is their primary functional range.


The patches present a situation where their mitigation is largely irrelevant, and their damage is almost completely neutered.


It's the direct opposite of fun.


It started in Apex, got worse in Keyes and has reached a new zenith in MoM.

Well played.

I don't think they are overpowered as they are now.

I do think they were designed with a level of mitigation that is so high that it gives the AT little wiggle room to improve other areas.

I also personally think that Tankers can often make some parts of the game too easy, and it can encourage lazy play sometimes on the part of teammates. I can't prove this, it's just my opinion.



I don't hate it, I didn't think they needed it at the time - but it helps the entire team and it doesn't stack so its useful but its also balanced.



Maybe you can ask the developers, because they specifically designed it not to stack.




You have to think in terms of leagues now, and most leagues I'm on have a shortage of good support ATs and an over-abundance of melee ATs - including Tankers.

I'd hate to give people less reasons to play support ATs.



Defenders, Controllers & Corrs give up personal mitigation to be capable of buffs/debuffs.


EDIT: As we speak, I'm on a UG with 5 Tankers, 4 Scrappers and 4 Brutes.

More HP is also more HP/S regen.

You're right about the res cap.

You can't really make great use of it even with SoW as a Brute, as just basic slotting +2 RES IOs takes you to about 78% Res. It's over the res cap, but just barely.

To actually really take advantage of it, you need to slot it and take Cardiac Core - which is not really the best choice of Alpha slot for Katana/WP IMO.



Do you think you will have enough Recharge without spiritual to use the top DPS chain?

If so, you could take Musculature and my choice would be Scrapper.


If you can't and you will need, or plan to take, Spiritual - then my choice would be Brute.

That doesn't mean that click intensive sets pair well with TW.

If you are sacrificing momentum uptime to keep yourself alive that's basically a strike against the combo.

While I understand that part of this is because more damage & more debuffs are always good, theree's another part as well.

I would say that no other AT has such complete supremacy in their specialization that literally a second Tanker's mitigation is not needed.

Because one tanker can literally take care of all of it.


Or you could play incarnate trials which are progressively requiring multiple aggro capable characters.

I just want to see, and I hope actually, that he will one day actually address those questions that many posters have posed to him.

So you think your FA Tanker build there is as resilient as an Invuln Tanker?

An Invuln Tanker can sit 3534 HP, your build has 2199.

An Invuln Tanker can be softcapped to SM/L/Ene/Neg/Fire/Cold.

An Invuln Tanker can be incarnate softcapped to SM/L and probably Ene with some effort.


You're build has a paltry 25% Global Recharge before hasten.


Even with Spiritual running you will have something like 20-25s downtime on Hasten.


You're proving my point, not yours or JBs.


By JBs estimation, since he has stated it repeatedly, "At the caps" there is no HP difference (well, he states only a 10% HP difference for brutes and Tankers), no RES difference and no DEF difference due to Incarnate powers, league/team buffs and inspirations.

In which case an Invuln Tanker and an FA Tanker have effectively the same mitigation, but the FA tanker has a much higher offense. BEcause FA has the exact same caps as Invuln.


So is that true? Do you believe that about Invuln Tankers vs. FA Tankers?

No you're seeing a lot of this because people don't recognize, appreciate or simply want to ignore the Tanker's higher base mitigation.

This sub-forum is just turning into a giant wishlist of how make Tankers the greatest melee AT of all time and why they deserve extra special treatment.

Momentum is precious.

Every second of momentum should be utilized to deal damage.

If adding an outside attack, like burn, actually increases your overall output - that might be one thing, but I don't think I would ever want to use Momentum's up-time casting non-attacks.


This is true.

You need to slot for end reduction.

Unfortunately that's irrelevant because the Tanker has that mitigation advantage and they do not.

You can't say that it isn't there just because you don't see it, it just doesn't work that way.

So how much mitigation would you be willing to sacrifice from the Tanker AT to get an offense increase?

You have to answer this question, because you're case is that the survivability isn't needed.

OK, let's start there then. Let's say it isn't needed.

How much isn't needed? How much Base DEF, base RES and base HP are you willing to cut for more damage?


There's nothing to deny.

Scrappers and Brutes are designed to have some measure of survivability.

They're not supposed to die every time they take a face punch, or they would be pointless ATs.


I also said that they still aren't as tough as a Tanker, they still don't have the Tanker's mitigation.

So when you have a proposal to reduce that mitigation to gain more offense in the same fashion of both of those ATs, let me know.



It's the other way around.

The Tanker has a guaranteed, consistently higher base mitigation.

There's nothing theoretical about it, it actually exists. It doesn't depend on buffs, it doesn't depend on inspirations. It's there.





Ultimately JB, you will never get me or other posters to take you seriously until you answer the tough questions we ask of you.

You clearly skipped over the dilemma I laid out in my prior post (Let's call it "FA rules the world") and I know you will dodge the question of mitigation reduction here as well.

You do this every time this debate comes up, which is about once a week.

You never answer the tough questions.

The point isn't how often you do or don't die. (Although you might want to try TPN & MoM).

Brutes and Scrappers aren't supposed to drop like flies, they're still not as tough as Tankers.

A good player can mitigate quite a lot through smart inspiration use, accolades, etc.

The point is that at the base Tanker's do have a massive mitigation advantage.

The point is that Brutes are not always buffed to the caps.

The point is that it's not fair to compare a Brute with an entire League of allies as well as Incarnate buffs & Inspirations to advocate more damage for Tankers without actually looking at the base for either AT.

There really can not be any further improvement in terms of offense for the Tanker without some kind of corresponding reduction of their mitigation IMO.

Because when the buffs are gone, when destiny is on cooldown, when you have run out of insps and your Brute gets caught out all alone - there are times where the Tanker will survive and the Brute will die.


The truth is JB that I think you are just hung up on the name of the AT, and probably the heroic image and the image that you have from comics.

At the end of the day it's just a set of mechanics, mechanics borrowed heavily from the concepts of other MMO design but fashioned slightly thematically on inspiration of characters from comics.



If you're happy surviving "most' of the time, and think you have "enough" survivability and don't mind dying a few more times than the Tanker and want the added damage that comes with the lower mitigation - the truth is you are a Brute player at heart.


If you want to be the unkillable mass, and you don't care about the offensive cost you have to pay because you want to be absolutely reliable in your mitigation and are more focused on watching after softer teammates - then you are a Tanker player.




I don't think this would be out of line, and its one of the few changes I would probably support.

It allows Tankers to soak up the aggro of larger groups but it doesn't mean they will outstrip a Brute of any targets focused on them automatically.


I don't necessarily think that unmatched aggro should be their specific forte, but if that simply means they can pull more targets overall to bring their mitigation to bear, then I'm OK with it.


Actually Tankers have 25% higher base Defense, which protects from getting hit and amplifies your 25% higher base resistances (which don't come into play until you get hit), which in turn magnify your effective HP - which Tankers have 25% more to start with as well.

It doesn't work out perfectly evenly from set to set, but 25% tougher is misleading.

Compare an SD Brute with 45% DEF, 30% SM/L Res & 2400 HP and (guesstimate) 20 HP/S Regen vs. an SD Tanker with 45% DEF, 55% SM/L Res & 3000 HP & (guesstimate) 35 HP/S Regen.

That's a lot more than "25%" more durability.


You're constant use of hyperbole doesn't help your case.

The problem with your hyperbole and insistence that Inspirations, League Buffs & Incarnate powers can make you un-killable is that you are playing Invuln and not FA or Regen, or any set not softcappped.

The problem is your hyperbole effectively means that if there is no meaningful survivability difference between a Tanker and a Brute, then there is also no survivability difference between Invuln and FA.

And this is simply untrue. I don't even think you would dare make such a statement.



Have you tried other sets on incarnate trials that are not Invuln, which is hands down probably the toughest outside of stone armor?

Let me know when you start running your StJ/Fire on trials. Let us know when you get put onto some kind of pull duty solo, or simply end up alone, or you are in charge of keeping maelstrom occupied and you're on an outside team without much support.

Let us know how that works out.



Agreed.


He still has to answer the question to the dilemma he created.

Otherwise FA is hands down just as tough as any other set due to league buffs, inspirations, incarnate powers - and it also has the best offense and therefore every other set in the game is mechanically at a disadvantage.

It's simply not true for FA vs. other sets and it's not true for Brutes vs. Tankers.

Just edited my post to add a slightly different idea that struck me afterwards.

Hi, glad to have helped!

It looks good.

If you can get the Glad Armor: Res to pick up a 0.04 EPS bonus that would be nice, but that's also pricey for what you get. Skipping it isn't a huge deal really.

I don't see anything that jumps out at me as something I would change. I might pull the psi proc out of Haymaker for the third membrane in AD but you look like you'll be DDR capped once it stacks on itself. I just prefer to be extra cautious with that portion of DDR.


I agree completely with the choice of cardiac, and as far as I'm concerned there is no other choice for SD/SS/Soul.

Spiritual helped the build I had hit the HP Cap fully, but Cardiac sees you gain from 2% up to 5% additional resistances (5% for SM/L). Looking at the kind of damage you take and how frequently you take it on iTrials - 5% SM/L resistance is a very decent trade off vs. an extra 50-100 HP (along with the end benefits, which SS & Soul demand).

Alternatively if you wanted to hit the HP cap with OWTS running, you could drop the L50 Res IO for a L50 Heal IO. You lose 3% Res to Ene/Neg/Fire/Cold/Toxic - but you will be fully hardcapped to SM/L still and can hit the HP cap.



If you have any enhancement boosters from purchase or from paragon rewards, toss them into the rech IOs in hasten.


Lastly, with rage you won't need the Kismet in Phalanx Fighting.

I would drop that, put the LoTG from Grant Cover there and either slot a L50 End Rdx, an Enzyme or if you have the inclination (and the Inf) you could slot the Shield Wall Unique there.




Or you could do this (3100 HP before OWTS ) :