Deus_Otiosus

My corrupter, who has less HP base than a blaster, has no issues with Swords and Battle Maiden Warriors.


Blasters can get a +SM/L def shield in their epic/patron pool just like my Corr did.

Any squishy can get the hang of combat jumping around the battlefield for ultimate mobility and blast-kiting enemies.


Unless of course you are just bad at the game or or are so stubborn that you refuse to adapt your tactics.

Fun fact, a squishy can even jump kite melee enemies inside the warehouse in Lambda! I do it all the time.




You've listed no options there that are not also available to blasters, or anybody else for that matter.


My corr for example can avoid melee most of the time, so I took Clarion because I don't actually need Barrier or Rebirth (except for KIR, I switch to Rebirth for that).




Maybe you're just not a very good player.

Me? I'm happy when my BAF has 6 blasters on it.

It means the escapee phase will be a cake walk, and the reinforcements will die with haste.

There is always more challenge to be had.

You just have to crank up the difficulty or fight enemies you/people typically avoid because they hit your weak spots.

If you think there is no challenge in playing "set and go" sets like WP, SD, SR and even Invuln then you should try Gaussian's Arc (The Red & the Black) at +0 to +4 x 8.

Falling asleep will not be an option.



If you have Gloom, you have the option of Darkest Night.

It's not the same as Shadow Meld, but you'd be surprised at its value.

It will.

There is not even a chance of it being better on the SD Brute unless the Devs literally re-write the entire power set. Which I don't think they will do.


Anytime you bring SD into the combination, just automatically assume that the Scrapper version will completely outclass the Brute version.

No, they didn't get a 20% buff to their offense. They got a 20% buff to their offense when they are solo.


Otherwise, everyone on the team - including Scrappers and Brutes get a 20% bonus to their offense when the Tanker uses their T1.

It appears you missed this:



Let me know when you're ready to talk Tanker nerfs so they can have a better offense, since in your own repeated assertion there is nothing in this game that requires their Mitigation.



Oh, don't worry Johnny.

We're only starting with their HP.

First we're going to reduce their base DEF numbers by 25%.

Then, we will reduce their Resistances by 25%.


Remember, they don't actually need these due to the Incarnate system, and because they can get perma-buffed to their caps all the time.

Nor do those magnify their extra HP.




Oh, about those "10% HP"


I don't want you to miss anything, because if we don't reduce their HP properly then they won't be able to do damage to be "god-like".


You should go to PARAGON WIKI, it's awesome.


It will show you how to properly calculate Tanker HP.

Maybe you can help me, because I keep getting 1874 HP base for the Tanker, and 1499 for the Brute.


That can't be right though, because that means the Brute has 20% less than the Tanker. I'm not very good at maths though.




Question for the smart people.

What is the value of an extra 20% HP protected by an extra 25% DEF and then an extra 25% resistance and supported by an extra 20% Regeneration?

That would be ridiculous.



Keep ignoring it if you want (you will, you're incapable of addressing it) but destiny level buffs & team buffs is not some 24/7 permanent guarantee.



And it completely ignores all of the other time NOT spent at those caps.


We get it, you want Tankers to do as much Damage as Brutes and probably Scrappers while having several orders magnitude better mitigation than them.

Keep wasting your breath, I don't want you to shut up like the others do.

I want you to keep wasting your time posting this, because your arguments are so flawed and ignore so many relevant points as to be embarrassing.




If tanker mitigation and tanker taunting ability is not important to you, than it is not the AT for you.



Are you willing to accept a massive nerf to Tanker mitigation levels to gain more damage?

Because that's exactly what Brutes got.




Resistance Caps are empty unless you are buffed.

You are not always buffed, and you are not always buffed to your resistance caps.






Every time you say this, I'll just say that they are not always at their caps.

Because they aren't.



Yeah that's right, you deserve more offense without being willing to give up any mitigation at all.

You never mention it, not once.


Keep pushin for the Tanker Mitigation Nerf JB. I hope you get it.


Tanker mitigation can be nerfed, and then your Tankers can have a better offense.


Let me know when you are willing to put your money where your big mouth is and start calling for the mitigation nerfs that would be required to give Tankers better offense.

Since, according to you, you can just be invincible all the time anyway on Brute & Scrapper numbers because they are buffed around the clock to their caps, I'm assuming that would be perfectly acceptable to you.


Keep dodging this part of the issue, and keep looking like a fool

I originally wanted to keep them for this, but I find with the amount of AoEs a crab has, including Immob Options in Patron pool, Call Reinforcements + Lore pets is more than sufficient.

On top of that, you could also grab a Patron pet like the mu striker for example who is great because he hangs back at range and just blasts.


Obviously some players want Spiderlings, Call Reinforcements, Lore Pets & a Patron pet - in that case go for it, but I don't think you are losing all that much dropping the Spiderlings in particular.

They do get something in return.

They get the higher base numbers which mean when you are not running around on this theoretical team/league where you are perma-res capped, perma-damage capped and perma-def capped, you are still much tougher than either of those ATs.


They also get bruising, which might not be some world shattering ability, but it does allow a Tanker to be a small force multiplier.

IME not even gauntlet, or even sometimes taunting like mad will pull aggro off of a dedicated high DPS Brute (all of the ones I have for example).

Gauntlet is not a hindrance, because Gauntlet lets even a single target focused melee set draw AoE aggro.



Just because you keep saying it, doesn't suddenly make it true.

His survivability is not theoretical.

Higher Base Starting HP
Higher Base HP Cap
Higher Regen due to Higher Base Starting HP
Higher Base DEF numbers allowing for more flexibility and freedom in build choices for IOs and less reliance on IOs for Defense
Higher Base RES numbers which are basically all but unreproducible on any consistent/permanent basis.
Higher Magnitude Status Protection




So you are saying that the harder hitting, mandatory higher level enemies do not favor the Tanker's mitigation advantage in the slightest?

Not every league, or every team is running around with 24/7 resistance capped Brutes with Frostwork on them.

Not every Brute or Scrapper has a multi-billion INF build allowing them to leverage added survivability from IOs with extra offense gained through purples for recharge.

Not every Brute or Scrapper even HAS a coherent build.


If your point is that no one needs the tanker to hold aggro, I could just tell you that no one needs the Brute or Scrapper either.

If you want to talk high end, I've done all ranged/support/VEAT BAFs and Lambdas that were fast and had no major issues.


The only thing that isn't right, and hasn't been, is your inability to accept that for the higher mitigation you get you have to trade off for a lower damage output for the sake of balance.

And if that design of lower damage for higher mitigation is not what you want, then its very very clear that you have long been suffering to squeeze the Tanker to be something that it is not.



So let us all know when you are willing to give up:

• Higher Base Starting HP
• Higher Base HP Cap
• Higher Regen due to Higher Base Starting HP
• Higher Base DEF numbers allowing for more flexibility and freedom in build choices for IOs and less reliance on IOs for Defense
• Higher Base RES numbers which are basically all but unreproducible on any consistent/permanent basis.
• Higher Magnitude Status Protection

...for more damage, and then you can just play a Brute or Scrapper since those ATs already exist and stop torturing yourself (and the rest of the forums) over wanting the Tanker to have better mitigation AND better damage than both of them.



All true.





I ignored the rest of your comments Johhny, because its basically twisting reality to suit your standpoint.

Well, I think on a limited Budget that Claws/WP is probably the better way to go.

"Limited Budget" usually means less recharge, and to get at least a decent attack chain going for Claws you don't really need tons of rech (you do if you want the top chains however).

WP doesn't really care about recharge, so you can skip all of the expensive bits for the most part.

So you will have decent ST, decent AoE and low rech requirements.

On the other hand, I prefer Foot Stomp's mitigation to Shockwave, and I also find that the larger PBAoEs are generally better on Incarnate Trials where friendly fire (read KB), mob spacing, ranged enemies that stay at range and large to huge enemy hit boxes means you will be getting more out of a 15 foot radius attack (Foot Stomp) than a 7 foot radius attack (Spin) a lot of the time (but not all of the time).


Unless you have a specific concept in mind, I'd probably go with Claws/WP of the two for your particular circumstance.

That's why I dropped them.

That's an amazing single anecdote that doesn't prove anything.


Here's my equally useless anecdote.



I've been on countless BAFs & Lambdas that have had anywhere from 3 to 6 Tankers on them.

Some of them only had 1 or 2 Scrappers or Brutes and in some cases, none!!

I think you should give in to the dark side...

If the Brute taunts everything away and dies...nothing happens.

Because there is another aggro capable toon standing there to soak it up.



Another thing is, the Brute doesn't automatically die.

I know people like to believe this on the tanker forums, but Brutes are not squishes that require the helpful babysitting of a tanker.

I'm willing to believe you but I'd like more proof of this as opposed to what could just be a myth of the forums.

And it was posted like this on the forums?

I see nothing in game that equates these ATs on a 1 to 1 basis when you start a character.



My personal view is that the ATs are more like this.

Brute = Scrapper/Tanker Hybrid (Damage/Aggro)
MM = Pet Heavy Controller/Tanker Hybrid
Dom = Controller/Blaster Hybrid
Corr = Offense focused Defender
Stalker = Scrapper / Blaster Hybrid

Out of the ATs, the Corr is the least Hybrid like and most like any blueside counterpart.


Taking off on your own is not holding aggro. Taking off on your own is soloing stuff while your teammates do X activity.


And I've seen Tankers faceplant as well.



But they don't have better taunt auras than Tankers.

Some power sets have better taunt auras than other power sets.



1) I have no problem with Scrappers having taunt auras.

2) The reason it is being given to Scrappers is because the taunt effect is part of gaining the bonus recharge, this follows the precedent with AAO, RttC and Invincibility.


I have not commented on WPs poor taunt aura, I have no problem with them bringing it inline with other taunt auras and I don't know why they specifically chose to make it weak like it is.

But yes, in fact, if you want a very strong taunt aura then as it is currently WP is not the set for you.

Just like if you want strong AoE damage, you don't choose Energy Melee.

So choose wisely.



It says that Brutes are designed to generate threat, regardless of their power set.




Yes, and its STILL a bad suggestion that is a nerf to Brutes.

I do not want any Tanker, ever, taking aggro from my Brute if I can help it.

And what you want to do, is take that dynamic away and make it an auto-win situation for the tanker.


Because Brutes require aggro for Fury.

And teams can have more than just 1 tanker.



My Brutes do both.


1) Fury

2) Aggro swapping mechanics like BAF



If you're saying this I can only assume you don't fully understand how high damage + mag threat works.

Brutes can, and do, strip aggro from tankers.



Do you also wonder why both doms and controllers are allowed to control things?

A Scrappers AAO Taunt is not stronger than a Tankers AAO Taunt.

What is your concern, that this poses a risk to the scrapper?

Good.

This game needs those risks, and not auto-win tankbots.



SR & Regen do not have taunt auras, and get no benefit from having one in terms of what those power sets do mechanically.

And for every person that is saying they don't want a taunt aura, I see an equal number saying that they do.

So when you choose a secondary power set for your scrapper, choose wisely.



And this entire conversation was already hashed out on the Going Rogue Beta boards, with even Castle weighing in that NO, brutes would not be losing their threat generation capabilities.



Some want it for Fury, and some want it for Tanking and some want it for both.


Then your suggestion was not only irrelevant, it was also specifically aimed at being detrimental to Brutes in terms of how they currently function.



By the way, the Tanker doesn't automatically steal more aggro.

The Tanker gets an advantage in generating AoE threat whether their Secondary power set has AoE attacks or not, and whether they took Taunt or not.

That's not going to stop an AoE heavy damage focused Brute from generating massive quantities of threat and even pulling it off of many Tankers - but it does mean that the Brute will need to plan a bit better if they aim to generate AoE threat for Fury or Tanking, or both.

I have no issue with you telling me that your MM does this, can do this or that teams prefer this.

I have not often experienced that personally, but my feeling is that if you as the player can pull that off - then more power to you. I see no reason to tell you that you shouldn't.

That also doesn't mean you are the defacto Tanker for redside.

Brutes aren't even the defacto Tanker for redside.



Regardless, Brutes hold aggro.

They do this by design.


Same MAG Threat in their attacks, same MAG Threat in their Taunt Auras, Taunt Auras in nearly (and soon to be all) every power-set they have.

They even get the same Taunt Power, as opposed to Confront.

I'd love to see a direct quote from a Dev, stating explicitly that they planned MMs to function in the exact role the Tanker fills.

Because when I look at redside ATs as a group that's not what I see.


What I see is less clearly defined roles, where instead of having the Tanker acting like MMO tankers, you have multiple hybrid ATs each picking up different portions of the normal roles and sharing them.

The trials have been the best implementation in game play allowing for multiple Tankers / Brutes to all coexist on a single league and actually have a reason to be there and sharing aggro together.

Endless waves of enemies, hard hitting AVs, anti-aggro mechanics - all excellent ideas to force people out of the old paradigm that is typical in MMOs.

I'm very happy with the direction they took combat in Trials for these reasons.



The end result is the same, they hold aggro.

They generate fury from this and they take a bigger risk than the Tanker doing so because they have less mitigation to rely on.


And as Auroxis has already stated, you can have both ideas coexist at once.

Hold aggro & Deal Damage (Higher Risk & Higher Payout Playstyle)

The tanker on the other hand is:

Hold aggro & Extreme Mitigation. (Lower Risk & Consistent Payout Playstyle)

If you have a taunt and a taunt aura you are designed to hold aggro for whatever reasons. Getting fury is a bonus.

I know you want to tell me that MMs were originally the "tankers" of CoV - but that obviously went nowhere.

Brutes have been holding aggro since their inception, redside teams have been calling on Brutes to hold aggro since their inception.

I see no reason why that has to suddenly change now.

Why are you playing WP and not EA then?

That's only if you double stack rage.

Otherwise its every 110seconds.


This nothing anyone ever really worries about.

I'm sorry for coming off so strong.

It appears you've simply made an error, and made a suggestion based on that error.

There is nothing to normalize.

Brutes have Mag 4 Threat in every single attack, just like Tankers.

They have Mag 4 Threat in every Taunt Aura they have, just like Tankers.

When the changes to EA go live, Brutes will have a Mag 4 Threat component in every single Secondary Powerset available to the AT. (Except WP, which is Mag 3 exactly like the Tanker version)



So suggesting that they suddenly have less Mag Threat, would in fact be a nerf call to the AT.



Tankers have the advantage in that they have Gauntlet. Tankers specialize in mitigation, this does not make them the defacto specialist in holding aggro, nor should they have an Auto-Win level of aggro control.



And I'm saying its an absolutely terrible and unneeded suggestion that only ever crops up on the Tanker forums because Tankers with all of their ridiculous levels of mitigation, and gauntlet, and easy street for build planning still manage to feel insecure with Brutes having mag 4 threat & taunt auras.

Having a taunt aura is a prime component of Brute effectiveness and is an important part of the Brute playstyle.

Without the ability to hold aggro, even in the face of a Tanker next to them, the Brute is a second rate Scrapper and has no purpose.

Any Brute that complains they have a taunt aura has chosen the wrong AT (and I've never heard anyone capable of rational thought actually complain about this).