Deacon_NA
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I just checked out my Thugs/FF and I'm seeing:
4.43 Maneuvers
12.68 Dispersion
2 * 11.8 Enforcer Maneuvers
for a total of 40.72. So yeah, with a 5% Def IO they'd be soft-capped w/o bubbles. That's with enhancing the Enforcer Maneuvers.
Just making sure, but you are aware of the recent change to FF single target buffs right? That it's an now aoe effect and if you bubble one pet, they all get it (assuming they're not running around).
Here are cons to not taking the bubbles:
1) If pets leave your line of sight or get out of range, they will no longer get your +Def buffs. With bubbles it doesn't matter where they are.
2) A defeated Enforcer could cause a cascading failure similar to -Def. That is, lose an enforcer, def will go down 10%ish, if the other enforcer goes down, you lose their Maneuvers too. Bubbles would cover the gap while you resummon.
3) Player teammates will not be happy. FF is thought of as a set that brings bubbles to the party and if you don't have that, you'll be regarded as not contributing your weight. I don't want to turn this into a debate on whether this is true or not, there are of course some other considerations but I'm just saying what will be a common perception.
So, based on Thugs soft-capping without bubbles, I'd say you could function fine. If you can live with the 3 points outlined above, then hey, go for it. -
Quote:Rangle I appreciate that you at least bring a sense of rationality, acknowledging there is no "one way" to build a tank. My only point is that, an absolute statement "Invul Tanks should never take Maneuvers" is incorrect, just as saying "all people have 10 fingers" is incorrect. Please understand I wasn't advising the OP to take Maneuvers or a PVP IO.Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I'd like to add a few quick comments.
Deacon, for you you've got a build you like and that works for you. I'm not going to argue that point.
But, I would like to point out that the general populous of the game doesn't have 2+Billion to spend on the IO like you did, so it's hard to recommend that as a solution to everyone. IF the OP wants to spend that kind of influence on his build that's fine. It is his build and he can choose to craft it however he likes. It's not a choice I'd suggest for everyone.
In general, the endurance cost of maneuvers is fairly high for the defensive return on tanks. Considering it doesn't even give you as much defense as Combat Jumping for 5 times the endurance cost. You've worked around the endurance cost, which is great, but Maneuvers is generally not needed to soft cap an Invulnerable tank. There are other ways that don't use that much endurance. You can still get an Inv/SS tank to the s/l/e/n softcap without Maneuvers.
In the end there is no "one way" to build a tank. So yes, your way works, and it works great for you. (You have to admit though, it is an expensive way to go about getting there that isn't for everyone.) That also doesn't mean the advice that others are giving here is any less valid then yours.
Can we get back to helping the OP?
This isn't a court of law, when I evaluate "is running toggle X prohibitive" all I need is gameplay to answer the question. Nothing more.Quote:Sorry, but anecdotal evidence is NEVER sufficient. It's simply a way of saying "this is what I feel". Nothing more.
Hopefully you're at least impressing yourself with yours.Quote:Please try the rhetorical bully-boy tactics elsewhere. They're impressing nobody.
See above.Quote:Evidently we have a lapse in somebody's reading comprehension.
I assure you, there is no "jacking around" my build whatsoever, let alone "SEVERELY". Perhaps you're just doing AE or Battle Maiden farms, maybe ITFs, if you find "pure psi is about as rare as hens' teeth". I play other end game content where there's a decent amount of "hens' teeth". Anyway, I certainly have no interest in defending my own build goals to the Hyperstrikes of the world. My original thesis stands - there exists Invul builds for which Maneuvers is appropriate, therefore negating the statement "No Invul should ever take Maneuvers".Quote:Yay for you. Going out of your way to soft-cap against pure psi is relatively pointless for an invuln. You aren't going to see enough of an appreciable gain in psi defense without SEVERELY jacking around your build. And besides, depending on how crazy you get with the build, it's quite doable to get ranged defenses up into the 30's, covering you from a goodly chunk of psi damage due to the fact that pure psi is about as rare as hens' teeth in the game.
Now as Rangle suggested, back to aiding the OP... -
Quote:Anectodal evidence is quite sufficient when I'm the one providing the anectdote, at least to me it is. This is also called "personal experience".Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No. You have anecdotal evidence based solely upon your build and your opinion as to what "acceptable" endurance use is.
Besides, that's not the argument. The argument against Maneuvers is because it's a needless expense:
- In endurance use
- In a power pick
- In a use of slots
- There are better ways to cap an Invuln tank (that don't even remotely include burning over 2 billion inf on a PVP IO).
This is indeed a good time for you to end the discussion. There exist those that shrug off the cost of a 2+B IO. If you're not one of them, so be it. Anyway, without the IO and Maneuvers, I would have a good sized gap to soft-capping psi. Of course soft-capping the other damage types is easy. I added Psi to the list. -
You're simply in the rough stretch of a MM's life, around level 20-25. Yes, that means you've got a few more levels of thinking "I thought MMs were supposed to be awesome?" until your Assault Bot shows up.
If bosses are problematic, for now you can go to the fateweaver and turn your settings to "no bosses".
Hopefully you chose Fearsome Stare when you turned level 20. Use this for your opener, to debuff and fear the enemy. If you follow that up with putting Darkest Knight on a higher rank mob (who will live longer), you and the bots are in a very safe place, even on DOs when you combine the prot bot bubble and Shadow Fall.
Hang in there... -
These are "first impressions" comments, not really a thorough review...
You built up some defense but not a lot. That's perfectly fine, but Cold does offer a baseline amount of def that you can build up impressive range and/or s/l/e with Scorpion Shield.
On to specific items:
1) You've exceed the "Rule of 5" a few times, most notably for the 6.25% bonuses. Swap out the Stupefy for Crushing Impact and that's win-win, you get more recharge and a high damage power does more damage.
2) You're missing PVE invisibility by not taking one of either Super Speed or slotting a stealth io. Arctic Fog will give you Stealth, but that's really not good enough when trying to get by mobs, especially in tight hallways. Throw it into Sprint is fine, or Fly
3) Minor point (very minor) the Karma -kb is very very cheap. Using it instead of Zephyr will save about 10M. Not a big deal by any means and for most non-newbies 10M is chump change. Still the bargain hunter in me couldn't resist pointing this out.
Another option - slot the Steadfast -kb and the 3% Def into one of your 2 ally shields, which can take resist sets.
4) I know Bitter Freeze Ray does some decent damage, but as a hold power, Freeze Ray is much better. It's much faster activation time is pretty significant for its usefulness (1 second vs 2.5)
5) I'd like to see more recharge in HL, at least use all the recharge available in a set, meaning an Acc/Rch.
6) Also, with respect to bargains - the Regen Tissue unique doesn't do much for a Defender with low base HP.
7) The Winter's Gift unique is SWEET on a Cold. The -slow resist stacks with Arctig Fog so you run over caltrops as if you have sb on you.
Anyway, if I had to prioritize, I'd say 1) and 2) are the items you really need to address. Everything is just something to consider. -
I don't know what more to say about it. My Invul/SS Tank with Maneuvers can literally fight continuously and not see the blue bar move at all. Maneuvers could have its cost doubled and it wouldn't matter. If the argument against Maneuvers is "its endurance cost is too high" well, no, I have empirical evidence otherwise against that statement being some universal truth. Is it true for some Inv tanks that haven't built good endurance managment? Sure. Is it true for all Inv tanks? Nope.
Further, I'm not sure how omitting the PVP IO will help endurance, seems like completely unrelated issues to me (per point 2 above)
One point for the OP - 89.6% s/l resists is certainly enough. I will promise you there will never be a scenario where you'll say "I would have survived if I had .4% more s/l resists."
Anyway, none of my comments have been with regards to the OPs build, rather the misguided notion that Maneuvers is something an Invul should absolutely avoid, period. -
Quote:You quoted me in your message and I did not say I had end issues. In fact, I most certainly do not, not in the least bit. How do you know how my Knockout blow is slotted? Are you confusing me for someone else?Originally Posted by LSK
Very simple you say you have end issues well maneuvers is a big end hog fo very little help with def. Also who said anything about 2.5 bill for an IO? Your Knockout blow is poorly slotted for damage that is one of your major attacks and u have it slotted for holds.
Well I still haven't seen any compelling reason to get of Man for my Tank. -
I'm not sure I get the "Don't take Maneuvers on an Invul Tank" notion. People pay 2.5B (ish) for an IO that gives you less Defense than Maneuvers 3-slotted with LOTG.
It's on my Invul Tank and I see no reason whatsoever that I wouldn't keep it. -
The most intense damage I've personally seen among my own MMs is my Bots/TA. At least when Oil Slick is up, with the -res patches, and the Bots lighting it slick for sure... it's a thing of beauty. I know OSA has a high recharge so it may not be the highest consistent damage, but when it is up, truly awesome.
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My only real priority was to get a stalker (BS/WP) from 43 to 50 so I can officially retire myself from the AT. See ya Stalkers until you get some dev love.
Additionally:
Elec/Energy Dom 46 to 50
Fire/Fire Tank 48.8 to 50
Axe/Dark Armor Brute 42 to 47
KM/EA Brute 1 to 4
DS/Therm MM 1 to 4 (level pacted with above)
A good half my time was on pre-existing 50s. -
Quote:More accurately implying that among the 20 inspirations I have on hand, at least 1 of them is a Catch a Breath (or higher tier). The odds of this being the case are very, very good.Originally Posted by PC_guy
implying heatloss doesn't recover through nuke -recovery as is >.>
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Recharge is indeed important, but not at the expense of personal defense. You can have both, I do for my Cold/Ice.
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The base recharge of the power is 30 minutes. Just to clarify, it doesn't increase your recharge for any length of time, rather it instantly recharges everything.
So you could do something like - Heat Loss > Nuke > Burnout > Heat Loss > Nuke and that would be a wonder to behold........ -
1) No it does not always increase current HP by the amount of the +Max HP buff, unless you are at full health, current HP does go up proportionately by HP/(Max HP) prior to the buff.
A couple of examples. Please note, for these examples I'm knowingly using wrong numbers to simplify the mathematics. To anyone reading, please do not bother to correct me on these FW, HP and Max HP numbers, they're purely illustrative (I say there's a 50% chance someone will still correct me). I do welcome corrections on the mechanics though, I may be missing something.
Let's say Blaster HP cap is 1500
Let's use a Blaster with 1000 Max HP
FW buff is 500
1) Blaster with current HP of 800 (that is, has taken 200 damage) gets the buff. Then
Max HP = 1000+500 = 1500
Current HP = 800 + 500 * (800/1000) = 1200
2) Blaster with current HP of 100 (900 damage taken) gets FW
Max HP = 1000 + 500 = 1500
Current HP = 100 + 500 * (100/1000) = 150
3) Blaster at full health
Max HP = 1500
Current HP = 1000 + 500 * (1000/1000) = 1500
Frostworks can seem disappointing if you're expecting a Hoarfrost/Dull Pain type buff. However, I still think it's decent. Skippable if you have a tight build, but worth it as a 1-slot wonder, or are pursuing some bonuses a Heal set provides. It does provide more HP for enemies to have to chew through and does increase survivabilty of the buffee, given that their max HP isn't already attained. -
Quote:Fair enough, I tip my hat, your last post did show you using "a little less tantrum" but I still have to say, after all these posts, I have yet to see any "more reasoning" about what makes a true statement out of "The very best PvE controller for high end large teams will always be a */kin." Perhaps it was simply poor wording to not reflect the relative ranking of Storm and Radiation, if that was your intent, that they were on par with Kin.
Deacon-- I apologise if you feel like somebody was trying to force you to submit to something. That wasn't me. I tried to focus on reasons for Kin/not, which was our chosen tangent. A little less tantrum and a little more reasoning goes a long way.
Regardless, I would have been very happy to engage in rational discourse of kinetics versus other controller secondaries. Unfortunately, nothing was submitted in defense of kin, other than to say "you're wrong!" when someone said otherwise.
I'm out! The last word is all yours... -
Quote:Unfortuntely for you, your attempts to steer me into some sort of submission to you is just not going to work. You have yet to show any rationale at all to back up "The very best PvE controller for high end large teams will always be a */kin. " except smarmy rebukes with no substance to any challenges to your unsubstantiated claim. There is no need to revise my opinion and I definitely stated what I intended. "I'm not inclined to explain myself" is not a substitute for anything other than attempting to adhere to Twain's "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference" which I acknowledge is too late for me at this point.Originally Posted by Enantiodromos
Obviously you are, since I named two other secondaries that are "close runners-up" in the very next sentence. Which brings us back to context and keeping track of what was said, and your qualifications for the list you mentioned.
Except the none of your reasons are both relevant and accurate, as I showed. "I'm not inclined to explain myself," is a poor substitute for "I may have to revise my opinion," or "Well, I guess I didn't really mean that." You should try one of the latter. -
Quote:Looks like MMs are getting a bargain with /Sonic.Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Word of warning - an actively attacking MM with Demon's Whips + Sonic's toggles is going to be challenged by endurance management. Have your merit farmer earn a lvl 20 Miracle unique for immediate usage at lvl 17, is my advice. Thinking of Disruption Field's end cost increasing (as per usual for MMs) makes my spine shiver.
Disruption Field and Sonic Dispersion, according to the in-game #s on beta, are 1.04 and .52 respectively, which matches the other 3 ATs.
Perhaps I should be abiding by Fight Club rule #1, but this just can't be right, FF's Dispersion Bubble costs .52 for Defs and Trollers, .65 for MMs. I wouldn't expect Sonic numbers to stay the same, but if they do, then MM Sonic endurance management will go from prohibitive to merely challenging. -
Quote:There is absolutely no need for me to revise my opinion, as I was by no means mistaken (as you were with Cold). To boil it down to its essence - you say Kinetics is far and away the best Troller secondary, unless I'm misinterpreting this quote
If you didn't mean what you said or think you may have been mistaken (as I've already said I may well be re: Cold), it comes across as much more honest and charming to say something like, "I may have to revise my opinion," or "Well, I guess I didn't really mean that." You should give it a try.
I say Kin is far from "the very best" and provided a small sampling of reasons. I would supplement those with many many more other reasons why it wasn't the best if I were so inclined. I'm definitely not inclined, this has already take more time than merited.Quote:The very best PvE controller for high end large teams will always be a */kin. -
Quote:Please show me where I either imply indirectly or state directly about kin that "the set's not that great".Originally Posted by Enantiodromos
Let me get this straight:
1. Because there are so many Kineticists, the set's not that great.
2. Because kins don't stack well, the set's not that great.
3. Because in this era, everybody has tons of +rec and +rchg, the set's not that great.
1. argues against itself. The correlation between performance an popularity is certainly not 1, but it's also certainly not negative in something as widely played as kin. If it's ubiquitous it's probably effective.
2. is irrelevant, as we're not talking about /Kin superteams, we're talking about individual builds. Incidentally it's also inaccurate, as they do stack well, particularly on controllers, who tend to be replete with long-ish and very long recharge times on powers. Which controller secondary stacks vastly much better than Kin BTW?
3. is inaccurate. Incarnates and people with billions to spend on LotGambler, Performance shifter, and whatever the latest set bonuses are in +rec and +rchg, are a tiny subset of "high end pve." That conversation is "tricked out L50s."
Yes, Thermal I dismiss. Re: Cold, you may have a point. Point of difference may be: in my experience killing as mitigation works; bubbles have never really impressed me.
BTW, the squeaking about mod-smack is silly.
Waiting....
If you think of Cold as just "bubbles" well I'm going to go ahead and finish those statements I was hesitant to make earlier and go ahead and say it's time to put you on the list of folks where I see their name and think "read with extreme skepticism". -
I'm running out of endurance just reading that 1.3 end/second cost.
And no, those don't scale with level. I wouldn't say those numbers are weak, they're less than MM (and I would hope so given how the MM version works) but when added to the other debuffs, is quite potent.
Not sold on making one though, after 2 /poison MMs... -
Quote:This is such a high degree of wrong that I can't complete this sentence without fear of mod-smacking.
The very best PvE controller for high end large teams will always be a */kin. The close runners-up are */Rad and */Storm. Other sets are out of the picture.
In this era of builds creating massive amounts of +recharge of +recovery for themselves, in addition to the proponderance of kins out there, and the fact that kins don't stack well (once you're at damage cap, you're capped), a kin ends up adding a nice heal and an underrated -dmg debuff to "high end large teams".
I'm saying this as a guy that loves his kins, I've got a handful at 50, across the ATs, two of them being top-10 toons for me.
I can't even address /Storm as being something in an upper tier such that "other sets are out of the picture". To dismiss Cold and Thermal as sub-par to Storm... well again, I can't finish this statement for fear of mod-smacking. -
Quote:Enquiring minds want to know...Originally Posted by Jibikao
Has anyone got into beta today? What is Venom Gas like?
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Perhaps you'll find the answers you seek with this thread on the same topic:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=266977
Oh, you'll find detailed numbers at www.cohtitan.com/data/powers -
That is a very nice summary/breakdown, but I do have an exception:
In reference to vill tips vis-a-vis hero tips -
Quote:I dunno. My hero merit farmer (Scrapper) went vill to do the patron arcs and along the way, I've been running vill tips. Now, I admit it may not be a fair comparison because I've gotten to be a hero merit machine, having runs the missions dozens of times. It still feels like hero missions are easier, simpler, that is, with less objectives. What really makes me advocate hero tips over vill is that the door locations are more consistently in the same zone. If I do my missions in either Atlas or Bricks, I know I'll stay in zone except for 2 missions that send me to a boat in IP. Vill missions make me hop between PO and GVill more than I'd like. The two morality missions are undisputably easier (simpler) for heroes.and the missions you get are much less of a pain in the neck
I think it would be interesting to see a similar listing of hero tip missions, rate them for simplicity (Defeating Polar Shift and an object is 5 stars, escorting Sister Jocasta is 1, escorting General Aarons (fortunately a vig tip) is -1000) then see who has the most 4 or 5 star missions.
I absolutely grant that farming the initial tip(s) is much easier for vills, especially if there's a miners strike. -
I'm not going to do the math, but a simple A primary powers x B secondary powers doesn't work because some primaries can not be combined with some secondaries. Dual Blades + Shield Defense, Claws + Stone Armor, I think that's it actually.